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Friday, January 10, 2020

In bizarre lawsuit, Yankees’ failed prospect says Derek Jeter ruined his career

Well, here’s something you don’t see every day:

In a rambling, conspiracy-laced lawsuit, a failed prospect, who never played above High-A and had a career batting average of .244, sued the Yankees for $34 million and blamed Yankees legend Derek Jeter for derailing his career as a shortstop, presumably because the soon-to-be Hall of Famer was afraid of the competition.

It was a wild swing and a miss.

In the lawsuit, dismissed by a judge in May, Garrison Lassiter used letters, newspaper clippings and scouting reports to weave a strange tale of conspiracy that he said was launched against him “to protect the career of Derek Jeter.” He alleged that it was “blantanly (sic) obvious” that Jeter controlled the Yankees organization, and he insisted Yankees employees libeled and slandered him to other teams, preventing him from reaching the major leagues.

The reason? “To protect the career of Derek Jeter.”

 

QLE Posted: January 10, 2020 at 01:26 AM | 92 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
  Tags: derek jeter, garrison lassiter, lawsuits, yankees

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   1. Gonfalon Bubble Posted: January 10, 2020 at 07:01 AM (#5914427)
A failed prospect, who never played above High-A and had a career batting average of .244, sued the Yankees for $34 million


But his hand puppet lawyer, Nigel Dicit, indicated that his client would be willing to settle for four minutes of frottage with Minka Kelly.
   2. JL72 Posted: January 10, 2020 at 08:10 AM (#5914431)
But his hand puppet lawyer, Nigel Dicit, indicated that his client would be willing to settle for four minutes of frottage with Minka Kelly.


I assumed that a gift basket would need to be part of any settlement.
   3. Rally Posted: January 10, 2020 at 08:24 AM (#5914434)
If this worked I would have to sue every high school pitcher who struck me out for ruining my professional baseball career.
   4. PreservedFish Posted: January 10, 2020 at 08:40 AM (#5914437)
This article went from riotously funny to kind of sad. This kid likely has some sort of grandiose personality disorder.
   5. Bring Me the Head of Alfredo Griffin (Vlad) Posted: January 10, 2020 at 08:48 AM (#5914439)
This article went from riotously funny to kind of sad. This kid likely has some sort of grandiose personality disorder.


Yeah, he seems like someone who is legitimately mentally unwell. The whole thing is just sad.
   6. What did Billy Ripken have against ElRoy Face? Posted: January 10, 2020 at 08:53 AM (#5914441)
In a rambling, conspiracy-laced lawsuit, a failed prospect, who never played above High-A and had a career batting average of .244,
Jeez. Some people are still using batting average to evaluate rambling, conspiracy-laced lawsuits??

The battle is not yet won.
   7. Steve Parris, Je t'aime Posted: January 10, 2020 at 09:05 AM (#5914443)
The Dodgers' AA shortstop Jeter Downs declined to join the lawsuit.
   8. What did Billy Ripken have against ElRoy Face? Posted: January 10, 2020 at 09:06 AM (#5914444)
Seriously, though, this is possibly the most disturbing part:

Lassiter, who acted as his own attorney after putting himself through law school,
Say what?? How did someone who plainly has a fairly serious mental illness (complete with using Inappropriate Capitalization for Emphasis in his court filings, which is quite common in conspiracy-laced pro se matters) get passed through law school without anyone raising the red flag?

A Yahoo article says the complaint refers to Massachusetts School of Law in Andover, which apparently doesn’t require the LSAT for admission. Seems like that type of ‘law school’ probably shouldn’t exist.
   9. PreservedFish Posted: January 10, 2020 at 09:16 AM (#5914449)
So he passed the bar exam?
   10. What did Billy Ripken have against ElRoy Face? Posted: January 10, 2020 at 09:23 AM (#5914450)
The article didn’t say either way. But of course you can file a pro se complaint without having passed the bar.

Apparently that law school is accredited (??!) and its graduates can sit for the MA and CT bar exams.
   11. Hot Wheeling American Posted: January 10, 2020 at 09:31 AM (#5914454)
The name isn’t a registered attorney in MA, CT, NY or NJ.
   12. PreservedFish Posted: January 10, 2020 at 09:32 AM (#5914455)
Do the lawyers that come out of such schools serve a purpose to society? Are they, for example, helping immigrants or very small businesses process their routine paperwork and such?
   13. flournoy Posted: January 10, 2020 at 09:53 AM (#5914461)
Fun article. My favorite part was his letter to Rangers GM Jon Daniels:

I’ll never play for the New York Yankees … a Team that doesn’t understand the importance of giving respect to the Players that help the Organization win. These are the facts big dawg.


We are in the process of hiring a couple people at my office. If any of the candidates I've interviewed wrote me an email and called me "big dawg," I might be tempted to set up for the next round in the process just for the hilarity of it...
   14. gef, talking mongoose & vexatious litigant Posted: January 10, 2020 at 09:55 AM (#5914462)
Do the lawyers that come out of such schools serve a purpose to society?


More apposite.
   15. Jose Needs an Absurd Ukulele Concert Posted: January 10, 2020 at 10:03 AM (#5914466)
Say what?? How did someone who plainly has a fairly serious mental illness (complete with using Inappropriate Capitalization for Emphasis in his court filings, which is quite common in conspiracy-laced pro se matters) get passed through law school without anyone raising the red flag?


People with mental illness can appear stable and “normal” (for lack of a better term) pretty regularly. In more extreme examples we see this with serial killers and the like who have jobs, families, etc...all while doing the most unspeakable things.

Mental illness sucks in large part because the ability to recognize it is so difficult. There are a LOT of people in high profile and/or powerful positions dealing with any number of issues.
   16. Zonk Wants Justice for Carolyn Gombell Posted: January 10, 2020 at 10:03 AM (#5914467)
To be fair, can you be absolutely certain about Jeter's long-form Birth Certificate?

Can you really SAY with certainty that it is real?

It's just another instance of the elites dismissing the concerns of people who are just asking questions as unhinged...
   17. gef, talking mongoose & vexatious litigant Posted: January 10, 2020 at 10:05 AM (#5914470)
There are a LOT of people in high profile and/or powerful positions dealing with any number of issues.


Take it to the Discord political forum.
   18. What did Billy Ripken have against ElRoy Face? Posted: January 10, 2020 at 10:53 AM (#5914482)
People with mental illness can appear stable and “normal” (for lack of a better term) pretty regularly. In more extreme examples we see this with serial killers and the like who have jobs, families, etc...all while doing the most unspeakable things.

Mental illness sucks in large part because the ability to recognize it is so difficult. There are a LOT of people in high profile and/or powerful positions dealing with any number of issues.
Certainly. But in this instance, it seems like one of the primary and obvious symptoms is incoherence of thought, which you don't tend to see in the same readily apparent way with sociopaths. I would think it would have had to have shown up somewhere in his written work in law school, at the very least.
   19. Itchy Row Posted: January 10, 2020 at 11:27 AM (#5914497)
He has to appear pro se because the Yankees and Jeter have engaged every other attorney just to keep him down.
   20. Sunday silence Posted: January 10, 2020 at 11:30 AM (#5914500)
SO what would you expect the law school to do? Throw him out because he sounds nutty. That would apply to a large portion of the people I went to law school with. And who do you get to evaluate his incoherence? A registered psychiatrist? Based on...? SOme essay he wrote on an exam? I mean really what do you think happens at law schools and other institutes? Its hard enuf for them to stop dangerous psychopaths like the ones that have perpetrated killings at schools.
   21. What did Billy Ripken have against ElRoy Face? Posted: January 10, 2020 at 11:34 AM (#5914502)
Let's assume for the sake of discussion that his written work in law school was of approximately the same quality as the complaint in this case, or at least showed some of the same incoherence. Do you think that should get a passing grade?
   22. RoyalFlush Posted: January 10, 2020 at 11:42 AM (#5914506)
SO what would you expect the law school to do? Throw him out because he sounds nutty. That would apply to a large portion of the people I went to law school with. And who do you get to evaluate his incoherence? A registered psychiatrist? Based on...? SOme essay he wrote on an exam? I mean really what do you think happens at law schools and other institutes? Its hard enuf for them to stop dangerous psychopaths like the ones that have perpetrated killings at schools.


I don't expect law schools to do anything. I was just impressed the guy could pull it off. The article reads like a set up for someone that has relatively serious paranoid delusions. You'd think a professor or administrator would have set him off at some point during his education.
   23. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: January 10, 2020 at 11:46 AM (#5914511)
The article reads like a set up for someone that has relatively serious paranoid delusions.

Paranoids have enemies too.
   24. Jose Needs an Absurd Ukulele Concert Posted: January 10, 2020 at 11:53 AM (#5914515)
Paranoids have enemies too.


Well I'm not sleeping tonight.
   25. Steve Parris, Je t'aime Posted: January 10, 2020 at 11:54 AM (#5914516)
Let's assume for the sake of discussion that his written work in law school was of approximately the same quality as the complaint in this case, or at least showed some of the same incoherence. Do you think that should get a passing grade?

No, but if you flunk him out then you won't get his tuition.
   26. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: January 10, 2020 at 11:56 AM (#5914519)
No, but if you flunk him out then you won't get his tuition.

Ding, ding, ding. Winner.

Higher education has very little use for academic standards these days. It's a customer service business. Customers don't like getting Ds and Fs.
   27. . Posted: January 10, 2020 at 12:02 PM (#5914520)
Higher education has very little use for academic standards these days. It's a customer service business. Customers don't like getting Ds and Fs.


This is a strand in the Decline, to be certain.

The guy's story is actually a good argument for the contraction of minor league baseball. He never should have been encouraged in his show business dreams, because he never had close to the requisite talent, and now he shows all the signs of arrested development that we see in the archetype. Sad story.
   28. gef, talking mongoose & vexatious litigant Posted: January 10, 2020 at 12:11 PM (#5914524)
Paranoids have enemies too.


All of my enemies are paranoids.
   29. reech Posted: January 10, 2020 at 12:15 PM (#5914527)
Is it established that he actually passed the bar?
   30. Srul Itza Posted: January 10, 2020 at 12:22 PM (#5914532)
Let's assume for the sake of discussion that his written work in law school was of approximately the same quality as the complaint in this case, or at least showed some of the same incoherence. Do you think that should get a passing grade?


Most law school exams, when I took them, oh, 40 years ago (my god, this year is my 40th Law School Reunion), give you 3 or 4 fact patterns, and then ask you for each one, what claims they might have, or what defenses, or how you might rule, etc., etc. It really involves just issue-spotting, and being able to write down all the things you see as possible issues or claim, within the time allotted. And you don't have to be perfect to pass; the people getting C's still get their diplomas. I know a lot of people who graduated who did not write at the level of a thoughtful BBTF post.

Aside from legal writing courses (which generally involve writing briefs or memos on specific items), you don't really create anything from scratch. I didn't draft Complaints, Answers, Motions, Discovery Requests, Lien Applications, Contracts, Releases, Settlement Agreements, etc., when I was in law school, but that is a huge part of what I do now.
   31. Srul Itza Posted: January 10, 2020 at 12:25 PM (#5914534)
Higher education has very little use for academic standards these days. It's a customer service business. Customers don't like getting Ds and Fs


Are you taking or teaching higher education, that you can say that?

A significant portion of my law school class were dropped for failure to meet academic standards. And this was an independent law school which survived largely on tuition, including a night school and a mid-year admission class, so as to make maximum use of the physical plant.

Maybe things have changed, and maybe this guy's school was different.
   32. Zonk Wants Justice for Carolyn Gombell Posted: January 10, 2020 at 12:27 PM (#5914535)
I think some of you must lead awfully sheltered lives...

I mean, I know lots of people - people who are perfectly functional, even successful, even highly degreed - who can spin you wild conspiracy theories.

Somewhere, there's probably a good point to be made about the difference between mental wellness and mental disorder/disease, where the conspiracy theory delusions result in manifestations and actions that are unhealthy.... or become focused to the point of obsession. It would take a mental health professional to properly unwind it, I'm sure.

   33. Tulo's Fishy Mullet (mrams) Posted: January 10, 2020 at 12:29 PM (#5914536)
Are people aware of the 'Diploma Privilege' which still exists in Wisconsin. Upon graduation from UW or Marquette Law School, provided you have taken certain courses during law school, and provided you are deemed fit by the State Board of Bar Examiners (character and fitness process), you are sworn in and become a member of the State Bar at the State Capitol the day following graduation.
   34. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: January 10, 2020 at 12:31 PM (#5914537)
Are you taking or teaching higher education, that you can say that?

My wife is a Chemistry professor. She is constantly getting flak for failing students, even those who richly deserve to fail. We're talking people who have averages below 50%, don't do the homework, don't show up for class.

A significant portion of my law school class were dropped for failure to meet academic standards. And this was an independent law school which survived largely on tuition, including a night school and a mid-year admission class, so as to make maximum use of the physical plant.

That was 40 years ago, right?

I went to B-school 24 years, ago, college 30, both brand name institutions. I don't know any who flunked out even back then. Grade inflation has gotten much worse since. e.g. the average grade at my Ivy League college is something like an A- now, vs. a B when I was there.

At the U. of Chicago (PhD program Econ) people actually failed, but that was a rarity even then.
   35. What did Billy Ripken have against ElRoy Face? Posted: January 10, 2020 at 12:36 PM (#5914541)
I mean, I know lots of people - people who are perfectly functional, even successful, even highly degreed - who can spin you wild conspiracy theories.
But would they go so far as to file multiple incoherent, vexatious lawsuits? That's not "perfectly functional."
   36. Zonk Wants Justice for Carolyn Gombell Posted: January 10, 2020 at 12:43 PM (#5914543)
But would they go so far as to file multiple incoherent, vexatious lawsuits? That's not "perfectly functional."


Well, most of the people I'm speaking of aren't lawyers... so they wouldn't actually know HOW to do that. The one or two lawyers I know - and yes, I know a "birther" lawyer - might... but it would depend on whether the conspiracy theory specifically crosses into a personally impactful arena.
   37. What did Billy Ripken have against ElRoy Face? Posted: January 10, 2020 at 12:49 PM (#5914549)
it would depend on whether the conspiracy theory specifically crosses into a personally impactful arena
This might be an interesting question, I dunno: Is it qualitatively different to believe stuff like birther/truther conspiracies, or personal conspiracies like Derek Jeter ruining your baseball career? Is one more disordered than the other?
   38. . Posted: January 10, 2020 at 12:54 PM (#5914551)
The birther lawsuits are certainly vexatious, but they're not remotely "incoherent." There is a stated body of law that says you have to be a naturalized citizen to be president and therefore if you aren't a naturalized citizen, you can't be president. The proof falls short, to be certain, but that happens in otherwise coherent lawsuits all the time.

There's no law anywhere that would lead anyone to think there would be a legal cause of action or remedy for a business "protecting" a more valuable employee over you. That's an actually "incoherent" theory, both factually and legally. It's so loony that it's not really even a "theory."
   39. . Posted: January 10, 2020 at 01:03 PM (#5914555)
In my early days as a fake lawyer, we got a good chuckle out of a case that actually was reduced to an opinion by a federal judge where the theory was that some, I think, federal agency, something like "continuously failed to deal" with the plaintiff. (Not on anything substantive, just literally failed to deal.) Pretty sure the guys pleadings and/or briefs were also riddled with out-of-nowhere capitalizations and the like. The judge kind of noted sideways in the opinion that he empathized with the apparent mental issues the prosecution of the lawsuit exhibited. Unfortunately, a preliminary search of google isn't turning it up, but I'm now somewhat interested in revisiting that trip down memory lane.
   40. Fernigal McGunnigle Posted: January 10, 2020 at 01:20 PM (#5914560)
There's no law anywhere that would lead anyone to think there would be a legal cause of action or remedy for a business "protecting" a more valuable employee over you. That's an actually "incoherent" theory, both factually and legally. It's so loony that it's not really even a "theory."
Lassiter's assertion (at least according to the article) was that the Yankees libeled and slandered Lassiter in order to protect Jeter. Actual libel (meeting the legal definition of such) intended to protect Jeter would obviously be something worthy of a lawsuit. I suspect that Lassiter would also have a case if the Yankees had engaged in a sort of general badmouthing that fell just short of the legal definition of libel but that was clearly egregious and tied to some sort of "we must protect Captain Calm Eyes!" smoking gun email from Cashman or Hank Steinbrenner. But as to this second theory, clearly IANAL.

(Of course, if the Yankees had really wanted to protect Jeter they could have released Lassiter or traded him to the Padres or moved him to second base or any number of a million and one things that are a lot easier for a baseball team than a slander and libel campaign.)
   41. Zonk Wants Justice for Carolyn Gombell Posted: January 10, 2020 at 01:24 PM (#5914564)
This might be an interesting question, I dunno: Is it qualitatively different to believe stuff like birther/truther conspiracies, or personal conspiracies like Derek Jeter ruining your baseball career? Is one more disordered than the other?


I think that's where obsession comes in - and of course, obsessive behavior seems likelier to build if it has a more personal connection. For example - I saw this a day or so ago.

Woman gets involved QAnon conspiracy theories (and if you think "Q" people are limited in number, I have a nice bridge to sell you).... but fine, fine. She also happens to have had some - cue, the primer lingo :-) - some of her children taken away from her...

So - the QAnon conspiracy theorizing becomes directly impactful to her because it's the reason her kids were taken away by the deep state to sell to pedophiles.
   42. What did Billy Ripken have against ElRoy Face? Posted: January 10, 2020 at 01:25 PM (#5914565)
Yeah, a slander and libel campaign?? How dare he accuse them of being the Red Sox.

Now that I think about it, they may have a counterclaim.
   43. . Posted: January 10, 2020 at 01:27 PM (#5914566)
In the lawsuit against the Yankees, Lassiter considers himself as a mix of Los Angeles Dodgers shortstop Corey Seager, the 2016 National League Rookie of the Year winner who made it farther than Lassiter did by age 20, and Brandon Weeden, a former Yankees pitching prospect went on to play parts of five seasons as an NFL quarterback.

Lassiter decided the Yankees owed him $17.468 million, based off what Seager had made.

Then he said the Yankees should fork over to him another $11.598 million, citing Weeden’s earnings but admitting the figure was a “guesstimate.”

...

But when the lawsuit against the most renowned sports franchise was tossed, the light-hitting infielder took another swing – this time at the Cincinnati Reds, whom he sued for $1.635 million on Dec. 30 – the equivalent of three years of the major-league minimum salary.

That lawsuit was filed 11 days after he sued Proehlific Park, a North Carolina training complex owned by former NFL wide receiver and Hillsborough, N.J. native Ricky Proehl. Lassiter, a who signed with the Yankees over a college football career, says Proehl’s facility failed to get him an NFL tryout.


I'm gonna go out on a limb here and conclude that the word "libel" is just something he heard and that he didn't plead anything that could even be libelous. If someone has a PACER subscription, I'm sure the pleadings are available. Middle District of North Carolina.
   44. Traderdave Posted: January 10, 2020 at 01:29 PM (#5914570)
Higher education has very little use for academic standards these days. It's a customer service business. Customers don't like getting Ds and Fs.


Reminds me of a prof I had back in the day who said he enjoyed hearing students talk about their grades: "I got an A (or B)" versus "He gave me a C/D/F."


   45. Jeff Frances the Mute Posted: January 10, 2020 at 01:34 PM (#5914573)
If this guy were a real fake lawyer he would be suing MLB for RICO too.
   46. Der-K: at 10% emotional investment Posted: January 10, 2020 at 01:40 PM (#5914574)
Der-GF is a professor and taught a class last year for physicians who are working on an additional graduate degree - the level of expectation/entitlement that a lot of those people had in terms of what they thought their grades should be was astounding. Off the charts.
Anyhoo, grade inflation both sucks and is a totally understandable phenomenon.
   47. . Posted: January 10, 2020 at 01:40 PM (#5914575)
I think that's where obsession comes in - and of course, obsessive behavior


I'd probably tread a bit lightly and humbly when you go on about other people's "obsessive behavior." Just sayin'. The era of Bad Orange Man hasn't been particularly ... cough ... pretty on that front.
   48. Zonk Wants Justice for Carolyn Gombell Posted: January 10, 2020 at 01:45 PM (#5914577)
Reminds me of a prof I had back in the day who said he enjoyed hearing students talk about their grades: "I got an A (or B)" versus "He gave me a C/D/F."


Heh.... see, I often used "gave" - but in the sense that the C was quite a nice gift, beyond what my classwork (or rather, lack thereof) deserved.... Perception!
   49. What did Billy Ripken have against ElRoy Face? Posted: January 10, 2020 at 01:58 PM (#5914585)
The era of Bad Orange Man hasn't been particularly ... cough ... pretty on that front.
OK, let's not let this interesting discussion descend into a bunch of political whatabouting, please.
   50. The Yankee Clapper Posted: January 10, 2020 at 02:09 PM (#5914589)
Do the lawyers that come out of such schools serve a purpose to society?
The bottom-feeder law schools exist primarily for the benefit of their faculty & administrators, who are often compensated fairly well. These schools frequently charge about as much tuition as the top tier schools, while encouraging their students to borrow to the maximum limit to pay the freight. They often claim that they are offering some sort of “alternative career path” for students snubbed by the better schools, but the reality is that these students emerge with hundreds of thousands of dollars in student loan debt, a 50-50 chance, or less, of passing the bar, and few employers - certainly not those offering salaries that would pay off those student loans - interested in hiring them. Better be in the top 5-10% of the class to have any chance. It’s a scam.
   51. . Posted: January 10, 2020 at 02:12 PM (#5914592)
OK, let's not let this interesting discussion descend into a bunch of political whatabouting, please.


Fair enough, I'm totally fine with that -- but the birther lawsuits are political therefore making comparative mention of them political. Again just sayin'. Maybe people truly don't realize that, not sure. It's the same kind of thing as when the soccer thread descended last summer to nonstop advocacy for equal pay for the USWMT a few months back.

Better be in the top 5-10% of the class to have any chance. It’s a scam.


This can be said about a lot of law schools, not just the bottom feeders.
   52. Zonk Wants Justice for Carolyn Gombell Posted: January 10, 2020 at 02:18 PM (#5914595)
OK, let's not let this interesting discussion descend into a bunch of political whatabouting, please.


There's an [ignored comment] for that problem :-)... don't quote him, I'd never see what he says - which works fine for me.
   53. The Yankee Clapper Posted: January 10, 2020 at 02:22 PM (#5914598)
The District Court decision, for those interested.
   54. The Yankee Clapper Posted: January 10, 2020 at 02:25 PM (#5914599)
This can be said about a lot of law schools, not just the bottom feeders.
No, certainly not to the same extent. Bar passage rates and employment figures are now publicly available for ABA accredited law schools. Not surprisingly, the Massachusetts School of Law, which Lassiter apparently may have graduated from, is not accredited by the ABA.
   55. What did Billy Ripken have against ElRoy Face? Posted: January 10, 2020 at 02:38 PM (#5914606)
It's accredited by the New England Commission of Higher Education, which allows its graduates to take the bar in MA or CT. So it's got that going for it.

Per Wiki:
The MSLAW bar passage rate for July 2018 first-time takers was 36%, compared to an average 79% from all Massachusetts law schools
Yeah, but you've got all those Harvard snobs skewing the overall numbers.
   56. . Posted: January 10, 2020 at 02:39 PM (#5914608)
Dismissed for lack of diversity of citizenship. Kind of yawn, though I do like how he checked "monopoly" and "antitrust" on the cover sheet to try to get federal jurisdiction.
   57. What did Billy Ripken have against ElRoy Face? Posted: January 10, 2020 at 02:43 PM (#5914612)
Sounds like he may have diverse citizens in his own head.
   58. The Yankee Clapper Posted: January 10, 2020 at 02:49 PM (#5914614)
The MSLAW bar passage rate for July 2018 first-time takers was 36%, compared to an average 79% from all Massachusetts law schools
Not unusual - from 2018:
The Massachusetts School of Law in Andover typically ranks last among the nine Bay State law schools. This summer was no exception. Only 21.8 percent of MSLAW graduates passed the state bar. MSLAW’s previous low this century was 2001’s 25 percent.
The difference in the 2018 figures in the two quotes presumably comes from the large number of Massachusetts School of Law graduates who are non-first-time takers repeatedly failing the bar.

Attending a non-ABA accredited law school is not a good move. Attending any law school outside ~ the Top 50 may be risky absent some special circumstance, such as very generous financial aid, geographic necessity, a job offer awaiting from the family firm, or the like.
   59. Traderdave Posted: January 10, 2020 at 02:55 PM (#5914615)
Speaking of third rate law schools, I've been thinking about taking a course or three in bankruptcy law. I'm not seeking a law degree, just want to improve my understanding of the subject so I can deal in defaulted/distressed debt more ably.

Any lawyers know one of these diploma mills that would do a decent job (ie I'd learn something useful) with a couple of classes? Would any allow me to show up as a walk on for BK law only?
   60. dlf Posted: January 10, 2020 at 03:05 PM (#5914619)
TD - I taught one of those classes (bankruptcy and creditor rights) at a third rate law school (about five miles from where gef lives) as an adjunct almost 20 years ago. I suspect you'd get much more out of a one-day CLE on debt restructuring and most CLE courses will be happy to let non-attorneys sit in for the few hundred bucks.

YC - What is your basis that the faculty are well paid at those bottom feeder schools? That the admin does well seems indisputable, particular at the for profit schools. But my gut feeling is that they use a lot of adjuncts getting paid just a few bucks who see it more as resume building than directly remunerative. And even the full time profs are those who can neither get jobs at Big Law or the State law school and are happy to take the low pay for the limited hours and lack of demand for 'publish or perish.'
   61. Traderdave Posted: January 10, 2020 at 03:07 PM (#5914620)
CLE means continuing law education?
   62. dlf Posted: January 10, 2020 at 03:12 PM (#5914624)
L usually stands for legal, but basically yeah. Seminars put on by either the state bar association, local (city / county) bar associations, and for-profit private seminar groups. Usually one-day or part of a day, and occasionally multi-day events.
   63. JL72 Posted: January 10, 2020 at 03:16 PM (#5914625)
I went to B-school 24 years, ago, college 30, both brand name institutions. I don't know any who flunked out even back then.


I went to engineering school 30 years ago and law school 26 year ago. There was a large drop out in engineering (probably half flunked out and half transferred to a different college). A smaller amount flunked out in law school, but there were definitely folks who did not return after both the first and second semester of my first year. Although my law school was famous for fighting grade inflation and instituted a 2.75 curve.

I suspect you'd get much more out of a one-day CLE on debt restructuring and most CLE courses will be happy to let non-attorneys sit in for the few hundred bucks.


There are also a lot that you can attend on-line. I don't think they care who attends as long as the fees are paid.
   64. dlf Posted: January 10, 2020 at 03:26 PM (#5914635)
This one is available on line. Six hour course and not limited to attorneys. I can't vouch for whether it would be worth nearly $1,500 for you but PLI generally does a good job with its seminars.
   65. Tulo's Fishy Mullet (mrams) Posted: January 10, 2020 at 03:44 PM (#5914638)
Normally I wipe out my CLE with local stuff, free seminars, or ones that I teach in my niche business, but on occasion I join a webcast by one of these large law firms which co-sponsor programs in my Securities Law world. I love the ones where you have to click a box mid presentation at various intervals to verify you're paying attention/awake/present. Others, I 've seen where you need to write down some passcode uttered during the presentation in order to get the certificate. I take it certain states must have these requirements to verify attendance. In addition to the bar exam waiver via diploma privilege, Wisconsin has self-reporting for the 30 credits of CLE. I'd get run out of my company if I tried to expense some CLE seminar for $1,500 plus travel costs or whatever many of these cost, which are typically only in NYC, DC or Boston.
   66. gef, talking mongoose & vexatious litigant Posted: January 10, 2020 at 03:45 PM (#5914639)
at a third rate law school (about five miles from where gef lives)


Jones, I presume. I have a friend who got his degree there after retiring as an Air Force lieutenant colonel (I think), after which he practiced bankruptcy law for a decade-plus.
   67. Never Give an Inge (Dave) Posted: January 10, 2020 at 03:49 PM (#5914641)

This sounds more like believing that Hilary Clinton was running a child trafficking ring out of a pizza parlor than the birther stuff (although I admit I'm not familiar with all forms of the birther conspiracies).

Like, how does badmouthing this player to other organizations protect Derek Jeter? If he was good enough to play in MLB and the Yankees didn't want to move Jeter, the rational thing would be for them to talk him *up* and then try to trade him.

The birther stuff at least had some logic to the underlying claim, even if it lacked evidence and was easily disproven. (i.e., if a character in a work of fiction forged his birth certificate in order to be eligible for higher office, you wouldn't say "this character's behavior makes no sense". Pizzagate and Jetergate lack even that underlying logic.)
   68. The Yankee Clapper Posted: January 10, 2020 at 03:55 PM (#5914645)
What is your basis that the faculty are well paid at those bottom feeder schools? That the admin does well seems indisputable, particular at the for profit schools. But my gut feeling is that they use a lot of adjuncts getting paid just a few bucks who see it more as resume building than directly remunerative.
My understanding is that adjuncts are paid poorly just about everywhere, and the favored few with full-time faculty status do much better everywhere. Undoubtedly there is some variation, but you usually can’t pay peanuts and attract talent that passes the laugh test. Lawyers aren’t like philosophy professors, there are real-world jobs available.
   69. Traderdave Posted: January 10, 2020 at 04:26 PM (#5914663)
64:

Thank you

   70. Tulo's Fishy Mullet (mrams) Posted: January 10, 2020 at 04:30 PM (#5914664)
Of course results may vary, but from the student perspective, the Adjuncts could be invaluable subject matter experts depending on the course/content. The reverse could also be true of course (legal writing adjuncts often get low marks).
   71. Steve Parris, Je t'aime Posted: January 10, 2020 at 04:43 PM (#5914669)
I love the ones where you have to click a box mid presentation at various intervals to verify you're paying attention/awake/present.

Same. Thankfully they don't ask if you're simultaneously watching TV!

Incidentally, I am taking a bar exam this year. I've been practicing for 15 years but Delaware famously does not let anyone waive in.
   72. The Yankee Clapper Posted: January 10, 2020 at 04:47 PM (#5914672)
Of course results may vary, but from the student perspective, the Adjuncts could be invaluable subject matter experts depending on the course/content. The reverse could also be true of course (legal writing adjuncts often get low marks).
As in everything else, the top law schools do better with adjuncts. Edward Bennett Williams taught a course at Georgetown Law for decades, and there are plenty of similar situations at other prestigious law schools. However, my understanding is that’s not typical of adjuncts at the so-so law schools, which are unlikely to pay a premium for such talent, nor attract it just for the prestige of the affiliation. It’s been a long time since I went to law school, but it’s hard to miss all the news about the poorly performing schools.
   73. dlf Posted: January 10, 2020 at 04:50 PM (#5914674)
#68: Thanks for the reply Clapper. I'd say for these non-ABA accredited law schools, being able to pass the 'laugh test' may not be a requirement, but ...

#66: Yep, Fauk U's Jones about a decade before they became accredited. (I strongly suspect I wouldn't have passed the laugh test - knowledgeable, prepared, but couldn't keep the attention of a starving man while I was holding a perfectly prepared steak - part of the reason why I decided adjuncting wasn't for me!) Same time I also taught nearly the same class to the pre-law kids at AUM another few miles down the road. I'm guessing that I would know your friend.
   74. Walt Davis Posted: January 10, 2020 at 04:53 PM (#5914676)
In Australian universities (generally), 50% is a passing grade. I think something like 85% is an A. If a student ends up in the range of 45-50%, they have to be offered the chance to retake the final exam which is at best annoying for the prof so (rumor has it), you just pass those folks. That grading scheme is convenient in a way -- you aren't under any pressure to dumb down the test to make sure most of them pass and you can ask some extra tough questions to try to weed out the students who don't really deserve an A.

Long ago and far away but where i went to grad school, one "F" and you were out of the progem. So nobody flunked, it would become an incomplete, they were then strongly encouraged to leave/transfer but did have the opportunity to go through the course the next year (or otherwise complete if it wasn't offered annually). I think a few of the foreign students who weren't native English speakers actually took the second option and did fine.
   75. PreservedFish Posted: January 10, 2020 at 05:03 PM (#5914679)
In Australian universities (generally), 50% is a passing grade. I think something like 85% is an A. If a student ends up in the range of 45-50%, they have to be offered the chance to retake the final exam which is at best annoying for the prof so (rumor has it), you just pass those folks.


And twenty years later I finally have an explanation for how I miraculously passed Intro to Archaeology during my year studying abroad.
   76. dlf Posted: January 10, 2020 at 05:05 PM (#5914681)
Incidentally, I am taking a bar exam this year. I've been practicing for 15 years but Delaware famously does not let anyone waive in.


I took (and fortunately passed) the bar in a second state about a dozen years after first being admitted elsewhere. That was the hardest thing I've had to do professionally as it required both relearning info that I hadn't even thought of in over a decade (criminal procedure? Blech) and, more importantly, relearning how to write a bar answer. In practice, you need to get to the point while for the bar, the answer is to spit out everything you know about the subject matter. If a judge asks what time it is, just say 5:05pm EST; if the bar asks the same question, you've got to start by discussing the duration of a trip around the sun followed by a discussion of a revolution of the planet followed by the concept of time zones and an aside about daylight savings ...
   77. Nasty Nate Posted: January 10, 2020 at 05:16 PM (#5914683)
I'm going to pass the bar in a few minutes. Just kidding, I'm going to go in for a pint.
   78. What did Billy Ripken have against ElRoy Face? Posted: January 10, 2020 at 05:24 PM (#5914685)
I took (and fortunately passed) the bar in a second state about a dozen years after first being admitted elsewhere. That was the hardest thing I've had to do professionally as it required both relearning info that I hadn't even thought of in over a decade (criminal procedure? Blech) and, more importantly, relearning how to write a bar answer.
Ugh. I cannot possibly imagine trying to gear up for another bar exam. I know people who have done it, but no way. If I ever have to move, I'll just open a store or something.
   79. The Yankee Clapper Posted: January 10, 2020 at 05:32 PM (#5914688)
Incidentally, I am taking a bar exam this year. I've been practicing for 15 years but Delaware famously does not let anyone waive in.
Never had to do that, but I always thought experienced attorneys would be OK if they had the time to take the most popular Bar Review Course, presumably BAR/BRI most places. Even if they steer you wrong on something, so many others would also be wrong that the question would wash out.
   80. Srul Itza Posted: January 10, 2020 at 06:30 PM (#5914698)
I went to engineering school 30 years ago and law school 26 year ago


Huh. I went to an engineering school starting ~47 years ago and law school starting 43 years ago.
   81. Srul Itza Posted: January 10, 2020 at 06:33 PM (#5914699)
Ugh. I cannot possibly imagine trying to gear up for another bar exam. I know people who have done it, but no way. If I ever have to move, I'll just open a store or something.


Eh. I passed the NY Bar in 1980, and sat for the Hawaii bar in 1989. Just took the BAR/BRI course, like the first time, took the test and went on. No biggie.
   82. Starring RMc as Bradley Scotchman Posted: January 10, 2020 at 06:38 PM (#5914700)
Nobody's going to post his career stats? Well, okay.

Lassiter had a halfway-decent year at Charleston (A) in 2011, slashing 274/355/344 as a 21-year-old; solid if unspectacular. (BTW, Bryce Harper, Jurickson Profar, Manny Machado and Xander Bogerts all played in that league as 18-year-olds that year, and, um, did a lot better.) If he kept improving with Tampa (A+) in 2012, he would've had a shot at the bigs; alas, he did not, hitting 195/250/256 in just 88 PA.
   83. Fernigal McGunnigle Posted: January 10, 2020 at 08:50 PM (#5914720)
Gary Sanchez was on those two teams, hitting 256/335/485 in Charleston (at age 18) and 279/330/436 in Tampa. That's what a solid but unspectacular prospect at a difficult defensive position looks like.

OTOH, Alex Rodriguez finished last in OPS of all the hitters on that Tampa team, and he wound up with 696 career home runs. So maybe there is something to the lawsuit!
   84. The Yankee Clapper Posted: January 11, 2020 at 03:34 PM (#5914803)
Just for context, this article lists the Law Schools with the worst Debt-To-Income ratios for their recent graduates. Not surprisingly, the worst of the worst seem to have accreditation issues, and a few are even closing. Massachusetts School of Law isn’t included, but that may just be because they aren’t ABA accredited.
   85. Blastin Posted: January 11, 2020 at 05:25 PM (#5914814)
I went to B-school 24 years, ago, college 30, both brand name institutions. I don't know any who flunked out even back then. Grade inflation has gotten much worse since. e.g. the average grade at my Ivy League college is something like an A- now, vs. a B when I was there.



I went to Princeton (03-07), and people really did fail. Buuut they were... not the kids of the powerful people/future donors. (Wyatt Rockefeller did not fail. Nor Bill Frist's son. Or Dr. Oz's daughter. Or George Bush's niece Lauren, who married Ralph Lauren's son, and so her name is Lauren Bush Lauren. This amuses me. Anyway, maybe they were great students, but I met them and.... uh.... Lauren was nice, at least. Al Franken's son was smart, though, and at the time he was just wealthy and respected.) So.... who your parents are turns you into a customer, potentially. I would have been thrown out had I failed. My friend got tossed out for a year for failing a single class, which was the typical process - you're behind in credits so you need to repeat the whole year. Which is... not cheap.


In my current doctoral program, at a public university (I did not enjoy my private school experiences, in the long run), one person is in the process of failing. She got placed on probation, etc, and will be shown the door if she doesn't get it together. No one cares about our parents anymore.

So, certain types of undergrad institutions are the way snapper describes, I would say.


   86. Lassus Posted: January 11, 2020 at 06:15 PM (#5914819)
I graduated from Vassar in 1992, and plenty of people failed or smoked their way out.
   87. Blastin Posted: January 11, 2020 at 06:58 PM (#5914822)
Honestly, some schools treat grades the way some treat the HOF, as binary. If you are doing well at all, high grade. If not, you basically are out. But you can absolutely fail out unless you're megapowerful (not just rich!), so it's like the rest of the world.
   88. willcarrolldoesnotsuk Posted: January 12, 2020 at 12:45 AM (#5914885)
From the District Court decision that the Yankee Clapper linked to earlier:
The Yankees move to dismiss pursuant to Federal Rule of Civil Procedure 12(b)(1), contending that there is no diversity between the parties because both are citizens of North Carolina,and thus that the court lacks subject matter jurisdiction over Lassiter’s claims.
I don't understand something here: This seems to be saying that both Garrison Lassiter and New York Yankees Partnership, an Ohio Limited Partnership are citizens of North Carolina?

I assume that "citizen" is being used in some legalistic sense that can include nonhumans; that's not what I'm asking about. But... "New York Yankees Partnership, an Ohio Limited Partnership" is a citizen of North Carolina? Why would they be a citizen of North Carolina, as opposed to Ohio? Or even New York?
   89. The Yankee Clapper Posted: January 12, 2020 at 02:29 AM (#5914889)
I assume that "citizen" is being used in some legalistic sense that can include nonhumans; that's not what I'm asking about. But... "New York Yankees Partnership, an Ohio Limited Partnership" is a citizen of North Carolina? Why would they be a citizen of North Carolina, as opposed to Ohio? Or even New York?
IIRC, the rule is that you need complete diversity of citizenship, and one of the entities that make up the Yankees limited partnership is a North Carolina resident, as is Lassiter. From the decision linked in #s 53 & 88:
Here, the Yankees have provided evidence, by way of competent declarations, that it is a citizen of North Carolina, as is Lassiter. The Yankees is an Ohio limited partnership. (Doc. 10-1 ¶ 3.) Its sole limited partner is YGE Holdings, LLC, a Delaware limited liability company. (Id. ¶ 4.) YGE Holdings, LLC’s sole member, in turn, is Yankee Global Enterprises LLC. (Id. ¶ 5.) Yankee Global Enterprises LLC’s members include Yankees Holdings, L.P. (Id. ¶ 6.) One of Yankees Holdings, L.P.’s members is Southern Yankees, LLC. (Id. ¶ 7.) Finally, Frank Brenner, who is a citizen and resident of North Carolina, is a member of Southern Yankees, LLC. (Id. ¶ 8; Doc. 10-2 ¶ 1.) In his complaint, Lassiter alleges that he is a citizen and resident of North Carolina. (Doc. 1 at 1, 3.) Because Brenner and Lassiter are both North Carolina citizens, the court lacks subject matter jurisdiction under 28 U.S.C. § 1332.
George Steinbrenner was a Cleveland ship builder when he bought the Yankees, and the original limited partnership was created in Ohio, probably for his convenience. Frank Brenner may be an heir of one the original limited partners, or perhaps he was added later. The Yankees limited partners are fairly low profile since they don’t have a role in running the team. As limited partner John McMullen famously said in 1979: “There is nothing quite so limited as being a limited partner of George Steinbrenner’s.” However, George did make a lot of money for his partners.

The Yankees did have some readily apparent defenses on the merits of Lassiter’s lawsuit, but having it dismissed on procedural grounds was easier.
   90. David Nieporent (now, with children) Posted: January 12, 2020 at 11:24 PM (#5915045)
What is your basis that the faculty are well paid at those bottom feeder schools? That the admin does well seems indisputable, particular at the for profit schools. But my gut feeling is that they use a lot of adjuncts getting paid just a few bucks who see it more as resume building than directly remunerative.

My understanding is that adjuncts are paid poorly just about everywhere, and the favored few with full-time faculty status do much better everywhere. Undoubtedly there is some variation, but you usually can’t pay peanuts and attract talent that passes the laugh test. Lawyers aren’t like philosophy professors, there are real-world jobs available.
But many lawyers with real-world jobs don't actually make all that much money. (Sure, better than professional philosophers.) These aren't Ropes & Gray partners teaching on the side; these are solo and small firm guys, a significant number of whom graduated from Massachusetts School of Law themselves. This is a way to pick up a few extra bucks and to be able to get to say that one is a professor.
   91. David Nieporent (now, with children) Posted: January 12, 2020 at 11:28 PM (#5915046)

The Yankees did have some readily apparent defenses on the merits of Lassiter’s lawsuit, but having it dismissed on procedural grounds was easier.
Well, also required. The Court didn't have jurisdiction over the case, so it couldn't address the merits even if it wanted to.

To elaborate on the citizenship question, a corporation is a citizen of the state of its incorporation and its primary place of business. (I'm putting this in lay terms.) But a partnership or LLC is a citizen of every state where any of its partners/members is a citizen. This often trips up unsophisticated litigants, who don't realize that they have to trace every member — and (as the court excerpt illustrates) oftentimes partners/members are themselves partnerships or LLCs, so every one of their partners/members also has to be traced.
   92. David Nieporent (now, with children) Posted: January 12, 2020 at 11:34 PM (#5915047)
The birther lawsuits are certainly vexatious, but they're not remotely "incoherent." There is a stated body of law that says you have to be a naturalized citizen to be president and therefore if you aren't a naturalized citizen, you can't be president. The proof falls short, to be certain, but that happens in otherwise coherent lawsuits all the time.
Of course, that's backwards. One has to be natural born, not naturalized.

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