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Wednesday, December 07, 2011

Giants Acquire Pagan From Mets For Torres, Ramirez

The Giants and Mets have agreed on a deal that will send Andres Torres and Ramon Ramirez to New York and Angel Pagan to San Francisco, tweets Joel Sherman of the New York Post. The deal is pending physicals, Sherman reports (via Twitter).

Thanks to Magoo.

Repoz Posted: December 07, 2011 at 02:57 AM | 60 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
  Tags: giants, mets

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   1. Bhaakon Posted: December 07, 2011 at 03:15 AM (#4008819)
So the Giants paid a useful-if-unspectacular relief pitcher for the "benefit" of downgrading their center fielder.

Pagan's younger than Torres, sure, but he's a year closer to free agency as well.
   2. Justin T's pasta pass was not revoked Posted: December 07, 2011 at 03:17 AM (#4008821)
Uh, Torres is terrible.
   3. esseff Posted: December 07, 2011 at 03:21 AM (#4008824)
Torres was a likely non-tender. I'd say the Giants did well.
   4. Bhaakon Posted: December 07, 2011 at 03:32 AM (#4008838)
Uh, Torres is terrible.


Torres finished with a better WAR than Pagan (fangraphs and BBRef flavor) in 2011. The results were split in 2010. So if Torres is terrible, what does that make Pagan?

Torres was a likely non-tender. I'd say the Giants did well.


Non-tendering him was foolish in the first place, so compounding their mistake by acquiring a lesser player who makes MORE and also costs them a reliever doesn't really equal a win.
   5. tshipman Posted: December 07, 2011 at 03:36 AM (#4008844)
Uh, this is a ####### A trade right here.

Giants get the guy who's:
a. younger
b. has the better track record

All it costs them extra is Ramirez. Nice job, Sabes. Now go find a SS.
   6. Something Other Posted: December 07, 2011 at 03:41 AM (#4008848)
Trading a useful chip like Pagan for bullpen help tells us which direction the team is going, fwiw. I don't like it. Rather than put lipstick on this pig I would rather the team be truly lousy for a few years while restocking the lower minors.

Do they think Niewenhuis can handle center, or is someone else coming on board?
   7. cardsfanboy Posted: December 07, 2011 at 03:45 AM (#4008852)
Torres finished with a better WAR than Pagan (fangraphs and BBRef flavor) in 2011.


Let's all repeat after me.... defensive stats require a three year average to be useful.

Pagan has consistently been a very good defender throughout his career, and yet he posted a -1.7 dWar last year. (prior seasons 2.2, 1.3) yep, I'm not going to take his defensive numbers too seriously.

Offensively Pagan owns the game in comparison to Torres. Good decision by the Giants to not stupidly look at raw War and make a decision. Nobody seriously thinks Torres is going to be better than Pagan over the next season, or next four seasons(assuming Torres is still in baseball after next season,)
   8. A triple short of the cycle Posted: December 07, 2011 at 03:47 AM (#4008855)
Good decision by the Giants to not stupidly look at raw War

Does Sabean even know what WAR is?
   9. Bhaakon Posted: December 07, 2011 at 03:48 AM (#4008856)
Giants get the guy who's:
a. younger
b. has the better track record


a) Pagan is a FA 12 months from now. That saps most of the value of being younger right there. Even if you hit Torres with a .5 WAR aging penalty, they're pretty much dead equal.

b) Better track record how? If anything, I'd give the edge to Torres over the last three seasons, and there isn't much to gain by going back further than that.
   10. Sam M. Posted: December 07, 2011 at 03:50 AM (#4008858)
I was opposed to offering Pagan arbitration, because I don't think that he's worth the $5M or so it would have cost them. So I'm OK with this. Ramirez sure looks like a useful bullpen piece, which the Mets could use to maintain some semblance of a major league facade. Torres doesn't look demonstrably or significantly worse than Pagan -- which one is apt to be worse is probably going to depend on the year and flipping a coin. If the Mets believe that Pagan's defensive decline last year reflects something in his play that isn't likely to reverse itself, than that makes the deal even more justifiable. Basically, if I had to bet, I'd bet a nickel (no more) on Pagan being the better center fielder of the two, but that Ramirez' value would put the Mets ahead.

Seems OK to me. Nothing that big, but it fills a need.
   11. The District Attorney Posted: December 07, 2011 at 03:52 AM (#4008863)
Do they think Niewenhuis can handle center, or is someone else coming on board?
There is nothing and nobody coming on board. That's why it's preferable to have the guy with the extra year on his contract.
   12. Bhaakon Posted: December 07, 2011 at 03:52 AM (#4008864)
Let's all repeat after me.... defensive stats require a three year average to be useful.

Pagan has consistently been a very good defender throughout his career, and yet he posted a -1.7 dWar last year. (prior seasons 2.2, 1.3) yep, I'm not going to take his defensive numbers too



Pagan's a career -1.5 UZR/150 in center field in 2601 innings. I don't see where you're getting this track record of excellent from, he had a good year, a great year, and a terrible year, the rest were right around average. You can't throw out the terrible year any more than you can the excellent one.

Torre is a career +12.4 UZR/150 career in center field, and has been better in that stat than Pagan in each of the last three seasons.
   13. Dan The Mediocre is one of "the rest" Posted: December 07, 2011 at 04:04 AM (#4008881)
Pagan's a career -1.5 UZR/150 in center field in 2601 innings. I don't see where you're getting this track record of excellent from, he had a good year, a great year, and a terrible year, the rest were right around average. You can't throw out the terrible year any more than you can the excellent one.

Torre is a career +12.4 UZR/150 career in center field, and has been better in that stat than Pagan in each of the last three seasons.


As these things go, I tend to trust B-Ref more than Fangraphs. B-Ref has Pagan as being better 2 out of 3 years. And the stats for Pagan this year do seem flukey.
   14. Tin Angel Posted: December 07, 2011 at 04:08 AM (#4008889)
Does Sabean even know what WAR is?


Sabes never really got into funk music. More of a Dokken kind of guy.
   15. Der-K's tired of these fruits from poisoned trees Posted: December 07, 2011 at 04:08 AM (#4008890)
Bizarrely, I predicted this deal early today (no, not online, if that mattered).
Three underrated guys, each someone their team seemed to want to ditch.

I think this is a pretty fair deal - I slightly prefer Torres and Ramirez, but it's close.
   16. RoyalsRetro (AG#1F) Posted: December 07, 2011 at 04:09 AM (#4008892)
Uh, this is a ####### A trade right here.

Giants get the guy who's:
a. younger
b. has the better track record


Its like I don't even know who Brian Sabean is anymore.
   17. tshipman Posted: December 07, 2011 at 04:09 AM (#4008894)
Pagan's a career -1.5 UZR/150 in center field in 2601 innings. I don't see where you're getting this track record of excellent from, he had a good year, a great year, and a terrible year, the rest were right around average. You can't throw out the terrible year any more than you can the excellent one.


Uh, I need a citation for this. Bbref has him significantly positive. Also, just looking at defensive rating in CF is sort of silly. With the exception of last year, Pagan has been a significantly positive defender every year of his career and a better offensive player. If you really think Pagan went from a +20 defender in 2010 to a -17 defender last year and that he looks to be -17 going forward, then yeah, it's not a great deal.
   18. Sam M. Posted: December 07, 2011 at 04:19 AM (#4008906)
If you really think Pagan went from a +20 defender in 2010 to a -17 defender last year and that he looks to be -17 going forward, then yeah, it's not a great deal.


There are two different parts of that quote. I am absolutely sure that Pagan did become a significantly negative defender last year. There's just no doubt that he was getting poor jumps on balls, and was struggling to get to (and often failing) some he had been catching pretty easily in prior years. A good step-plus slower. In this case, observation matches the data.

That, of course, is a very different thing than saying he looks to be a -17 going forward. I would assume that the Giants have much more information about what may have been wrong with Pagan than I do, and they might have some good reason to believe it might have been an injury he was playing with and he'll be OK come spring.

There did seem to be hints from the Mets FO and Terry Collins that they were unhappy with Pagan's attitude. If he was sulking a bit for reasons unknown (something going on in his personal life, an issue with some teammates, a problem with Collins, whatever), then that might have affected his play in the field -- his concentration, whatever. It happens. It also could very well be the kind of thing he'd leave behind and he'd be fine for the Giants in '12. If I had to guess, I'd expect his defense to rebound. But who the heck knows? What I'm sure of is that it DID decline in '11.
   19. formerly dp Posted: December 07, 2011 at 04:23 AM (#4008909)
Pagan has consistently been a very good defender throughout his career, and yet he posted a -1.7 dWar last year. (prior seasons 2.2, 1.3) yep, I'm not going to take his defensive numbers too seriously.

Pagan looked pretty lost this past year-- I don't know if it was the injuries or his struggles at the plate, but he was not the same on the field.

I read that the Mets were after Andy Dirks, but now that they seem intent on keeping Murphy, that's probably not going to happen. With Duda in RF they need a good CF.
   20. Benji Posted: December 07, 2011 at 04:25 AM (#4008910)
I'll miss Pagan's bonehead plays on the basepaths and totally predictable throwing to the wrong base. Watching him hit, not so much. The man with the plan is gathering guys no one will want at the trade deadline, probably so he won't get fleeced by the other GMs again. I never understood why teams that know they can't win load up with other-30 mediocrities. Does he (or Jeff Wilpon, who is probably really making these deals) think anyone in the universe is going to want to watch these retreads? M. Donald used to do this too. Remembering guys like Wayne Twitchell and Willie Montanez exciting The Big Apple.
   21. cardsfanboy Posted: December 07, 2011 at 04:27 AM (#4008912)
Pagan's a career -1.5 UZR/150 in center field in 2601 innings.

I'm going by dWar on baseball reference. I don't use anything else anymore for the most part. All of baseball-reference stats for him in center, even after a horrible 2011, is positive. Not sure what site you are getting your information from, hopefully it's not one of those silly sites that list xFip in a Cy Young discussion.
   22. Something Other Posted: December 07, 2011 at 04:30 AM (#4008916)
So I'm OK with this. Ramirez sure looks like a useful bullpen piece, which the Mets could use to maintain some semblance of a major league facade.
Not to pick on you, Sam, and I may be pulling out a line or two from a few of your posts simply because of their unadorned accuracy, but that can't be the reason so many of us were pleased Alderson came on board, to "maintain some semblance...".

This is the most unimaginative GMing I can imagine. Combine this with things like Alderson's shameful participation in the Reyes charade and I'm beginning to suspect the Wilpons are feeding Alderson some substance that has turned him into a docile Jeff Wilpon sock puppet.

edit: "Offensively Pagan owns the game in comparison to Torres. Good decision by the Giants to not stupidly look at raw War and make a decision".

I was honestly startled to see Torres's 82 OPS+ was worth almost a win. That's some replacement level.
   23. cardsfanboy Posted: December 07, 2011 at 04:31 AM (#4008917)
Pagan looked pretty lost this past year-- I don't know if it was the injuries or his struggles at the plate, but he was not the same on the field.


now that along with Sam's comments on another thread(I think) is something useful in evaluating Pagan. Using last years war without using local context is not useful to the discussion. The thing is both you and Sam said similar things, his defense was noticeably worse and that there was no 'widely' known issue causing it, which can be argued to either raise concern or be an indication he's playing through something which was unreported. Without knowing the reason for why his defense dropped so much, it has to be a cause of concern(provided that his defense dropped enough for the eyes to see it, which it sounds like might be the case)
   24. Ivan Grushenko of Hong Kong Posted: December 07, 2011 at 04:33 AM (#4008920)
I thought Torres and Pagan were the same person. And Ramon Ramirez sounds like a fake name.
   25. bobm Posted: December 07, 2011 at 04:34 AM (#4008923)
[10] I was opposed to offering Pagan arbitration, because I don't think that he's worth the $5M or so it would have cost them. So I'm OK with this.

So, what do people think Alderson does with Pelfrey?
   26. Sam M. Posted: December 07, 2011 at 04:37 AM (#4008930)
This is the most unimaginative GMing I can imagine.


That's interesting, because the Pagan trade is actually the one somewhat imaginative move of the bunch. As I said in the Rauch thread, I think that move is hard to defend. The Francisco signing is reasonable, but certainly not imaginative.

But this one? They take a center fielder whom, it became pretty clear, they didn't really believe in. You may disagree with that, but the signals were unmistakable -- they were even sending mixed signals about whether he'd be tendered. Pagan clearly had no real future in the organization. So they packaged him for a replacement center fielder, who may (may) not be quite as good, but also got another reliever who completes the bullpen rebuild, getting both players for no more total dollars than they would have paid Pagan. That seems like a pretty nice return (no more money, meeting positional need) for a player they didn't even want.

It's one thing to disagree with the move -- if you have a different perspective on Pagan, then of course you will disagree, and that's fine. But if you see it from Alderson's POV, then it looks like a nice little move using a surplus asset.
   27. cardsfanboy Posted: December 07, 2011 at 04:37 AM (#4008931)
This is the most unimaginative GMing I can imagine. Combine this with things like Alderson's shameful participation in the Reyes charade and I'm beginning to suspect the Wilpons are feeding Alderson some substance that has turned him into a docile Jeff Wilpon sock puppet.


I'm not a Mets fan of course, but the Reyes charade is clearly something that had to be done. The Mets had always clearly never had an intention of signing Reyes unless it was for a substantial hometown discount, but at the same time, you don't just let a player of that caliber walk without doing something. The Cardinals are arguably doing the same thing with Pujols and it's happened for other players in the past. The team can't allow a hometown player to leave, but at the same time, they can't overpay every homegrown player in an attempt to appease the fans. It's a tough balancing act, that every gm worth a salt should realize.


As a fan of the sport, I hope beyond all hope that homegrown stars never leave their team, but as a realist I realize that isn't realistic, so as a fan, I hope my team puts out a competitive offer. Anything more is asking too much.

(mind you, I'm also the same guy who says the Cardinals should match or exceed any real offer to Pujols, but I think Pujols is a special case)
   28. AJMcCringleberry Posted: December 07, 2011 at 04:44 AM (#4008936)
that there was no 'widely' known issue causing it

He missed a month early in the year with an oblique injury. Don't know if that affected him after he came back.
   29. Something Other Posted: December 07, 2011 at 04:48 AM (#4008940)
It IS possible that Pagan was indeed playing through injury last year, and the FO figured it was the kind of thing he might not recover from. He wouldn't be the first guy in the world to peak late then swan dive off a cliff. Also, since he rated to get $5m in arb and they just spent that money on the pen, did they have much choice (to their way of thinking)?

Just a thought.

@26: A "surplus asset"? From the thinnest OF in the majors?

We're speaking different languages.

edit: "It's a tough balancing act, that every gm worth a salt should realize." Sure, but as DiPerna pointed out so aptly on another thread, the Mets had no intention, ever, of keeping Reyes, and played out a costly charade in order to pretend they weren't a team on the skids. It's one thing to play the game to a purpose, as you note, but it's another thing to save the Wilpons' face at a real cost to the franchise. Dealing Reyes while he was having a healthy, HOF season--when the team knew they weren't going to be in on him this offseason no matter what--was clearly preferable to getting picks, especially the Marlins' picks, but any picks, really. Reyes in mid to late June couldn't have netted worse than a Zack Wheeler type, in other words what they got for Carlos Beltran.

Fwiw, I don't plan to be rational about this. I don't give a flying #### about putting a few more fans in the seats to watch this team play out the string when it means making the team worse for when it might be relevant again.

#### the Wilpons. #### fuck ####.

Huh. Must be the rhythm.
   30. formerly dp Posted: December 07, 2011 at 04:50 AM (#4008942)
He missed a month early in the year with an oblique injury. Don't know if that affected him after he came back.

They talked about him playing through it a lot early in the season, iirc.
   31. cardsfanboy Posted: December 07, 2011 at 04:56 AM (#4008948)
He missed a month early in the year with an oblique injury. Don't know if that affected him after he came back.

They talked about him playing through it a lot early in the season, iirc.


and that is worth more information than pointing to his actual results like post 4 pointed out.
   32. Sam M. Posted: December 07, 2011 at 04:58 AM (#4008949)
@26: A "surplus asset"? From the thinnest OF in the majors?

We're speaking different languages.


But they replaced him as a CF with Torres. You think of Pagan as more valuable than Torres, but Alderson didn't (or at least not significantly so). They are no thinner now in the OF than they were before the trade, and for no loss of depth in that area, they put another piece in the bullpen.

From an overall organizational perspective, the Mets did not view Pagan positively. They viewed him as expendable in a deal like this. Whatever may be true from the POV of specific positional need, they don't view a center fielder, generally, as surplus. But I am pretty confident they saw Pagan, particularly, as surplus -- that is, as a guy they were more than happy to part with because he wasn't worth what he'd cost.
   33. spike Posted: December 07, 2011 at 05:02 AM (#4008951)
Should the Marlins sign Pujols, wouldn't that significantly reduce the value of the Mets compensation for Reyes?
   34. AJMcCringleberry Posted: December 07, 2011 at 05:05 AM (#4008954)
It would knock the Mets down from a 3rd rounder to a 4th rounder.
   35. formerly dp Posted: December 07, 2011 at 05:21 AM (#4008963)
From an overall organizational perspective, the Mets did not view Pagan positively. They viewed him as expendable in a deal like this.

The new regime soured on him pretty quickly. By August his fate was pretty well sealed.
   36. Crispix Attacksel Rios Posted: December 07, 2011 at 05:44 AM (#4008972)
Andres Torres is FOUR YEARS OLDER than Pagan? Boy, I thought Pagan was a late bloomer. He got his first 400-PA season in 2010 when he was 28. Torres was in the minors at age 28, 29, and 30.

Also, they're both from Puerto Rico. Only 29 players born in Puerto Rico played in the majors last year. Ten of whom were >10-year veterans.
   37. Bhaakon Posted: December 07, 2011 at 05:54 AM (#4008983)
I'm going by dWar on baseball reference. I don't use anything else anymore for the most part. All of baseball-reference stats for him in center, even after a horrible 2011, is positive. Not sure what site you are getting your information from, hopefully it's not one of those silly sites that list xFip in a Cy Young discussion.


BBRef still has Torres as a more valuable fielder, 2.8 dWAR 2009-2011 vs 1.8 for Pagan. Torres had ~750 fewer innings in the field than Pagan, so WAR may understate the difference between them.

If you really think Pagan went from a +20 defender in 2010 to a -17 defender last year and that he looks to be -17 going forward, then yeah, it's not a great deal.


Or you can think that Pagan is neither as good as +20 nor as bad as -17, which leaves him as average-to-good, but still worse than Torres.
   38. cardsfanboy Posted: December 07, 2011 at 06:04 AM (#4008988)
BBRef still has Torres as a more valuable fielder, 2.8 dWAR 2009-2011 vs 1.8 for Pagan. Torres had ~750 fewer innings in the field than Pagan, so WAR may understate the difference between them.


You are missing the point, the point is that the only reason Torres beat Pagan last year in war is because of the volatile nature of dWar. All of Torres value is locked up in the volatile nature of dWar, he's an poor offensive player, he's 34 years old, 40% of his career war is tied up into one incredible defensive season in 2010. There is absolutely no way anyone could think he's a better player than Pagan going into the next year, without knowing more about Angel's injury. If someone wants to argue that the package is worth the deal, then I could see it, but Pagan straight up for Torres is a massive steal for the Giants.
   39. CrosbyBird Posted: December 07, 2011 at 07:44 AM (#4009018)
All of Torres value is locked up in the volatile nature of dWar, he's an poor offensive player, he's 34 years old, 40% of his career war is tied up into one incredible defensive season in 2010.

What am I missing here? Torres has a 126 OPS+ in 2009, and a 122 OPS+ in 2010. He had a lousy offensive season in 2011, but I think it's a bit much to say he's a poor offensive player. He's got more isolated power and also walks a little bit more than Pagan, although he had a terrible BA season in 2011. I think this is very much a challenge trade. Pagan is probably going to be the better player due to be the age difference, but he's hardly a sure bet himself.

I wouldn't be thrilled to trade one for one mainly because of the age and Torres' really lousy 2011 season, but getting a solid reliever as well is a pretty strong return, especially since it will probably end up costing the Mets the same money for both players as it would have to keep Pagan.

I also think the Mets could do a lot worse than to build a strong bullpen. Relief pitchers are very movable at the trade deadline, and if one of Francisco or Ramirez has a good season, that player should buy more in the way of prospects than Pagan coming off a brutal 2011 season will get them now.
   40. Bhaakon Posted: December 07, 2011 at 08:37 AM (#4009022)
You are missing the point, the point is that the only reason Torres beat Pagan last year in war is because of the volatile nature of dWar.


You can make the same argument about why Pagan topped Torres in bbref's WAR in 2010. If you apply both player's career average defensive performances to those season, they'd come out very close.

All of Torres value is locked up in the volatile nature of dWar, he's an poor offensive player, he's 34 years old, 40% of his career war is tied up into one incredible defensive season in 2010. There is absolutely no way anyone could think he's a better player than Pagan going into the next year


19.4% of Torres's WAR over the last 3 seasons is stems from his 2010 defensive value. 25% of Pagan's WAR over that stretch comes from his 2010 defense. I don't see how you can say that the "flukish nature of defense" favors Torres when 1) it's clearly favored Pagan at times as well, and 2) there's a plenty large enough sample to suggest that Torres is the better defender.
   41. Baseballs Most Beloved Figure Posted: December 07, 2011 at 08:49 AM (#4009025)
Why do people keep starting sentences with uh?
   42. Something Other Posted: December 07, 2011 at 11:26 AM (#4009037)
@41: Because they find what other posters have to say so obviously wrong. Duh.

@39: There are too many Met reliever threads to keep track, but elsewhere the point was made that relievers don't really get much back at the deadline. Especially fungible relievers having good seasons.
   43. Adam Starblind Posted: December 07, 2011 at 01:31 PM (#4009064)
Or you can think that Pagan is neither as good as +20 nor as bad as -17, which leaves him as average-to-good, but still worse than Torres.


Worth noting too that Pagan played a significant amount of RF and LF in 2010 while Beltran was healthy. Not all of his value was accumulated in CF.
   44. billyshears Posted: December 07, 2011 at 01:59 PM (#4009072)
This is the most unimaginative GMing I can imagine.


What would you have done? I grant you trading Reyes. It was stupid to keep him, but if I had to guess, that had more to do with Wilpon than Alderson. But if you were the Mets GM this offseason, what would you being doing with their available resources?


The Francisco signing is reasonable, but certainly not imaginative.

To echo the point in #39, I think the Francisco move is the most imaginative of the bunch. Sign an excellent reliever from a more difficult league/division to a modest contract and anoint him with magic closer pixie dust. I can see Francisco sitting with 20 saves and a 2.4 ERA at the all-star break and netting a pretty good return in the way of prospects. This is one way rebuilding teams convert money to prospects, which is the most important thing the Mets can do.
   45. Dan Posted: December 07, 2011 at 02:05 PM (#4009076)
Worth noting too that Pagan played a significant amount of RF and LF in 2010 while Beltran was healthy. Not all of his value was accumulated in CF.


Torres has too though. Rowand's salary made him the CF over Torres when both were playing, until Rowand completely cratered this season. Only in 2011 was Torres really a full-time CF.
   46. formerly dp Posted: December 07, 2011 at 02:29 PM (#4009085)
What would you have done? I grant you trading Reyes. It was stupid to keep him, but if I had to guess, that had more to do with Wilpon than Alderson. But if you were the Mets GM this offseason, what would you being doing with their available resources?

Yeah, this is getting some warm bodies back in exchange for a player they were ready to let walk away for nothing. It's important to keep in mind that someone needs to pitch those bullpen innings, and with a rotation that figures to be shaky (they're talking about bringing back Escobar and Young!) you want guys who can reliably pitch an inning or two a game. Having those arms be ones the organization has no long-term investment in isn't a bad idea.

This really closes the door on Parnell as a late-inning guy (he's #4 on the totem pole now), but after his second half it looks like he just doesn't have the chops for it.
   47. North Side Chicago Expatriate Giants Fan Posted: December 07, 2011 at 03:48 PM (#4009147)
There's a bigger point here, and I apologize if I missed it skimming through the thread: Pagan will play CF, rather than Torres being on the bench and Melky Cabrera playing CF.

Edit: Oh, Grant made that point on McCovey Chronicles. Nice work.
   48. CrosbyBird Posted: December 07, 2011 at 05:23 PM (#4009276)
There are too many Met reliever threads to keep track, but elsewhere the point was made that relievers don't really get much back at the deadline. Especially fungible relievers having good seasons.

They didn't give up very much.
   49. Ravecc Posted: December 07, 2011 at 06:02 PM (#4009335)
I had as wallpaper Reyes and Pagan’s jumpchestbump for a while - they’re a good 3 feet off the ground. I'm gonna miss them a lot.

I wonder what Angel did to make Terry hate him so. Aside from the nomadic baserunning and indifferent fielding, that is.

Can Nieuwenhuis stick at center?
   50. Ravecc Posted: December 07, 2011 at 06:03 PM (#4009336)
Also: they should consider getting Havens working back at SS. Assuming he can stay healthy for 2 weeks straight, that is. They have absolutely no SS depth in the minors.
   51. Sam M. Posted: December 07, 2011 at 06:16 PM (#4009353)
Also: they should consider getting Havens working back at SS. Assuming he can stay healthy for 2 weeks straight, that is. They have absolutely no SS depth in the minors.


Everything I've heard is that Havens is no shortstop. Plus, they are not completely bereft of options in the minors behind Tejada. Jordany Valdespin had a breakout year in 2011, and has the arm to play short.
   52. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: December 07, 2011 at 06:29 PM (#4009379)
Jordany Valdespin

Now that sounds like a baseball video game made-up name.
   53. bads85 Posted: December 07, 2011 at 06:30 PM (#4009382)
Why do people keep starting sentences with uh?


They only have one eyebrow.
   54. Ravecc Posted: December 07, 2011 at 07:04 PM (#4009432)
Everything I've heard is that Havens is no shortstop. Plus, they are not completely bereft of options in the minors behind Tejada. Jordany Valdespin had a breakout year in 2011, and has the arm to play short.


Valdespin can only fake short. And he's got attitude problems: suspended by Bernazard in 2009, benched by Backman last year for lack of effort.
   55. The District Attorney Posted: December 07, 2011 at 07:10 PM (#4009441)
he's got attitude problems: suspended by Bernazard in 2009, benched by Backman last year for lack of effort.
Yes, but what makes you think either of those people is sane?
   56. Sam M. Posted: December 07, 2011 at 07:18 PM (#4009456)
Jordany Valdespin

Now that sounds like a baseball video game made-up name.


Actually, I think it sounds like a name from a Harry Potter book.

Valdespin can only fake short. And he's got attitude problems: suspended by Bernazard in 2009, benched by Backman last year for lack of effort.


As for Bernazard, that's a badge of honor. The more recent word was that Backman's work with him paid some dividends and the Mets (and Backman) were pleased with the progress he made in terms of his attitude and approach. Whether those gains can or will be maintained is a whole other matter. In any event, the Mets certainly have to hope Tejada can handle the position, because there isn't much in the minors behind him . . . and whatever may or may not be Valdespin's future, Reese Havens isn't the answer to that problem, either way.
   57. Ravecc Posted: December 07, 2011 at 07:54 PM (#4009496)
Actually, Havens and Valdespin seem to be very similar; lefty-hitting 20something MI, middling speed, more bat than glove. But D3PO knows a heck of a lot more than I do and Valdespin was the one he returned to short. I was asking only in terms of depth. The Mets don’t even have the 29 yo no-hit SS every team has. Hence the interest in Jack Wilson.

Sandy seems to be willing to punt defense anyway. Putting Murphy back at 2b, Duda in RF, heck even the suggestion that JayBay play CF. Those poor pitchers....
   58. Sam M. Posted: December 07, 2011 at 08:02 PM (#4009501)
Sandy seems to be willing to punt defense anyway.


Hey, look at it this way: moving in the fences should cut down on the harm Duda can do out there, right?
   59. Mark S is still on target Posted: December 07, 2011 at 09:09 PM (#4009580)
Ken Davidoff reports Mets get Marlin's 2nd round pick.
   60. Johnny Sycophant-Laden Fora Posted: December 07, 2011 at 09:46 PM (#4009625)
hat am I missing here? Torres has a 126 OPS+ in 2009, and a 122 OPS+ in 2010. He had a lousy offensive season in 2011, but I think it's a bit much to say he's a poor offensive player. He's got more isolated power and also walks a little bit more than Pagan, although he had a terrible BA season in 2011. I think this is very much a challenge trade. Pagan is probably going to be the better player due to be the age difference, but he's hardly a sure bet himself.


He's got 1423 MLB PAs at 97
He's got 2465 AAA PAs and 712 in AA
and his ZiPS mles are:

.241/.323/.310
.228/.302/.301
.231/.273/.308
.260/.328/.358
.222/.299/.322
.237/.299/.353
.251/.299/.415
.255/.328/.414

Looking at all his 5000 some professional PAs it seems that his true talent level is A LOT closer to 2011 than 2010

though to be fair, Pagan's likely not all that much better

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