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Friday, April 22, 2022

HALL OF FAME RESTRUCTURES ERA COMMITTEE, FRICK AWARD VOTING

Effective immediately, the Board has made changes to the Era Committee system that provide an avenue for Hall of Fame consideration to managers, umpires and executives, as well as players retired for more than 15 seasons.

Highlighting these changes is a consolidation of eras into two timeframes – the Contemporary Baseball Era, consisting of the period from 1980 to present day, and the Classic Baseball Era, consisting of the period prior to 1980 and including Negro Leagues and pre-Negro Leagues stars. The Contemporary Baseball Era will split into two separate ballots – one ballot to consider only players who made their greatest impact on the game since 1980, and another composite ballot consisting of managers, executives and umpires whose greatest contributions to the game have come since 1980.

Each of these three Era Committees – the Contemporary Baseball Era player ballot, the Contemporary Baseball Era non-player ballot, and the Classic Baseball Era composite ballot – will rotate on an annual basis, with each ballot consisting of eight candidates.

Effective beginning in January 2023, eligible players must have been retired for 16 or more seasons, equal to a one-year waiting period following their final potential year of eligibility on the BBWAA ballot.

Eras considered for yearly election are as follows: December 2022 (for Class of 2023) – Contemporary Baseball/Players; December 2023 (for Class of 2024) – Contemporary Baseball/Managers-Umpires-Executives; December 2024 (for Class of 2025) – Classic Baseball. This cycle will repeat every three years, with Contemporary Baseball/Players eligible for consideration again in December 2025 for the Class of 2026.

RoyalsRetro (AG#1F) Posted: April 22, 2022 at 12:34 PM | 36 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
  Tags: hall of fame

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   1. RoyalsRetro (AG#1F) Posted: April 22, 2022 at 01:36 PM (#6073091)
This effectively takes Barry Bonds, Roger Clemens, Curt Schilling, and Sammy Sosa off the Contemporary Era ballot for December.
   2. sunday silence (again) Posted: April 22, 2022 at 01:41 PM (#6073092)
if you keep changing the rules for how the process works then the whole idea starts to make less sense.
   3. Steve Balboni's Personal Trainer Posted: April 22, 2022 at 01:44 PM (#6073094)
I'm wondering if there is anybody for whom this reorganizing particularly helps or hurts?

The Golden ERa ballot last December (which would now be part of Classic Baseball) loaded up on nominees - Minoso, Buck O'Neil, Kaat, Olica, Hodges, and Bud Fowler.

Dick Allen was a vote short, and I would think is first in line in December of 2024. I mean, in terms of the Classic group, it cannot get bigger - it is capped by the end date - and I'd be curious who people here would reasonably put "above the line" from this pre-1980 era besides Dick Allen. Tiant? Ken Boyer? Tommy John?

For the 1980-present group, there's a whole bunch of players we'll be debating for the next 20 years, but I hope Lou Whitaker is the first one in.
   4. Jose is Absurdly Correct but not Helpful Posted: April 22, 2022 at 02:07 PM (#6073096)
1 - Apparently Bonds, Clemens etc...are still eligible in December because thechanges go into effect January, 2023.
   5. villageidiom Posted: April 22, 2022 at 02:38 PM (#6073108)
December 2022 Contemporary Players

OK, so we know the 16-or-more-seasons-retired thing keeps Bonds/Clemens off this ballot (EDIT - Didn't see Jose's correction in #4). One would have needed to retire before the 2007 season. If I looked this up correctly the eligible players for that ballot includes the following from BB-Ref's career WAR leader list:

Lou Whitaker
Rafael Palmeiro
Kevin Brown
Dwight Evans
Buddy Bell
Willie Randolph
David Cone
Mark McGwire
Keith Hernandez
Bret Saberhagen
Darrell Evans
John Olerud
Chuck Finley
Frank Tanana
Will Clark
Dave Stieb
Robin Ventura
Orel Hershiser
Chet Lemon
Jose Cruz


Bobby Grich's contributions are almost certainly centered prior to 1980. Either of the Evanses played alongside Grich for much of his career but received MVP votes mostly after 1980 and would likely be considered 1980s players. Same for Cruz, although folks might still think of him as a 1970s player. Cruz is below the David Ortiz WAR line, as are all eligible players not listed (such as Dwight Gooden).

FWIW Kenny Lofton and David Wells retired after the 2007 season, so they just barely miss qualifying for this ballot.
   6. DL from MN Posted: April 22, 2022 at 02:43 PM (#6073113)
Best "Pre-1980" candidates

Bill Dahlen
Dick Redding (they passed over both of them in this summer's induction)
Grant Johnson
Quincy Trouppe
Stan Hack
Luis Tiant
Dick Allen
Dobie Moore
Wes Ferrell
Reggie Smith
Charlie Keller
Sherry Magee
Jimmy Sheckard
Bill Freehan
Billy Pierce
John Beckwith
Dick Lundy
Jim Wynn
Alejandro Oms
Ken Boyer
Bob Johnson
Urban Shocker
Bert Campaneris
Bucky Walters
Norm Cash
Bus Clarkson
Gavy Cravath
Johnny Pesky
Wally Schang
Don Newcombe
Tommy Leach


And the other really early players
Paul Hines
Charlie Bennett
Jack Glasscock
Heinie Groh
Ross Barnes
Joe Start
Dickey Pearce
Bob Caruthers
George Gore
Harry Stovey
Cupid Childs
Pete Browning
Lip Pike
   7. Karl from NY Posted: April 22, 2022 at 02:47 PM (#6073115)
Keith Hernandez comes to mind as one who may not make out well here. His best stats and MVP were in the 70s, but his titles and more of his fame in the 80s. He's just a little too old to feel contemporary and a little too young to feel classic.
   8. DL from MN Posted: April 22, 2022 at 02:50 PM (#6073116)
Post-1980 I'd add to the list above

Rick Reuschel
Graig Nettles
Kevin Appier

I don't know which side of the line for Tommy John, Dave Concepcion and Bobby Grich.
   9. cookiedabookie Posted: April 22, 2022 at 03:14 PM (#6073122)
This doesn't feel like it's going to last long. How many non-player candidates do they think there really are since 1980? A few managers, a couple umpires, and maybe an owner/gm or two? Just a weird decision. I'd be ok with two committees, rotating, pre-1970 and post-1970.
   10. I don't want to talk about Rocco Posted: April 22, 2022 at 03:44 PM (#6073126)
Other than the non-MLB leagues (Negro leagues, Mexican League, overseas) are there really any glaring omissions from before 1980? Not the historian but my reading seems like they are kind of reaching now while working to avoid selecting players from more recent times. And no offense to this crowd but 1985 isn't that recent either.

Any conjecture? Behavior seems really odd. And this doesn't even account for MLB constantly talking about hey how do we get younger fans? Maybe do something kind of interesting like inducting Mike Trout into HOF now versus talking about some guy who played 60 years ago, is likely dead, his family may not exist either so like nobody cares except the person who wrote his SABR bio??
   11. Joyful Calculus Instructor Posted: April 22, 2022 at 04:00 PM (#6073128)
are there really any glaring omissions from before 1980?


See, the beauty of inducting these old guys is that fewer people realize they're a mistake. Like if they inducted Jason Giambi, it would be laughable, but Orlando Cepeda? His numbers may not be any better than Giambi's but he had mystique or whatever.
   12. DL from MN Posted: April 22, 2022 at 04:03 PM (#6073129)
Other than the non-MLB leagues (Negro leagues, Mexican League, overseas) are there really any glaring omissions from before 1980?


Bill Dahlen is a pretty glaring omission and yet they keep passing over him.

   13. The Yankee Clapper Posted: April 22, 2022 at 04:18 PM (#6073131)
Bill Dahlen is a pretty glaring omission and yet they keep passing over him.
Not to get bogged down in the merits, but Dahlen has been considered for more than 85 years, and for whatever reasons always found wanting. It’s not like any current voters would be more knowledgeable, everything they know is second or third hand. At some point there should be a cutoff- maybe 100 years of combined eligibility(?) - and then the debate just shifts to whether it was a miscarriage of justice to omit anyone who didn’t make it.
   14. Tom Nawrocki Posted: April 22, 2022 at 04:30 PM (#6073133)
How many non-player candidates do they think there really are since 1980? A few managers, a couple umpires, and maybe an owner/gm or two?


I would guess they will also consider a handful of candidates from outside MLB altogether - people like Bill James and Sean Forman who occupy positions that didn't really exist before 1980. They haven't really inducted anyone like that since Henry Chadwick, but I wouldn't be surprised if we get a couple in the next few years.
   15. Eric J can SABER all he wants to Posted: April 22, 2022 at 05:05 PM (#6073135)
At some point there should be a cutoff- maybe 100 years of combined eligibility(?)

So nobody gets cut off until at least 2036...
   16. ERROR---Jolly Old St. Nick Posted: April 22, 2022 at 05:27 PM (#6073141)
See, the beauty of inducting these old guys is that fewer people realize they're a mistake. Like if they inducted Jason Giambi, it would be laughable, but Orlando Cepeda? His numbers may not be any better than Giambi's but he had mystique or whatever.

Er, Giambi's stats aren't primarily what's keeping him out of the Hall of Fame.
   17. Esteban Rivera Posted: April 22, 2022 at 06:38 PM (#6073146)
One key change not mentioned in the excerpt but that is mentioned on the Era Committee page is that they're cutting down on the max number of candidates one can vote for to 3 per voter. That's not going to help at all.
   18. villageidiom Posted: April 22, 2022 at 06:42 PM (#6073148)
Post-1980 I'd add to the list above

Rick Reuschel
Graig Nettles
Kevin Appier

I don't know which side of the line for Tommy John, Dave Concepcion and Bobby Grich.
They say in the excerpt that it's based on which side of 1980 they made their greatest contributions. For Grich and Nettles it's definitely the 1970s. Most of Concepcion's PAs, defensive innings, Gold Gloves, and All-Star appearances are in the 1970s. Reuschel is interesting because he has more seasons on the 1980 & later side, but slightly more innings on the pre-1980 side. And of course he was a Cy Young contender on either side. I didn't think of him as 80s when I started down this path, but I might be with you on him after all.

John's an interesting one. Most of his pitching prowess was in the 1970s, especially late. But he is renowned significantly for his post-surgery longevity, and the bulk of that was the 1980s. I'd tend to put him pre-1980, but I think a case could be made either way.
   19. The Duke Posted: April 22, 2022 at 06:56 PM (#6073149)
1. I liked the old system where it was four discrete periods and the later periods appeared more often
2. I'm sure this is more effort to keep PED guys off. Just because they are currently eligible doesn't mean they will actually be on ballot this year and then they won't be eligible for a while.
3. The change to 3 votes implies they aren't happy with how many old timers are going in which is a bit odd since the writers are going to go through a real dry spell for a while.
4. And.....my boy Keith Hernandez looks to be screwed
   20. Ziggy: social distancing since 1980 Posted: April 22, 2022 at 07:05 PM (#6073152)
The insistence on screening committees and voting limits is, and always has been, really weird. It's like they're worried that if they're not careful the committee might end up electing Joe Charboneau.

It will be interesting to see how they handle the guys with steroid taint. It wouldn't surprise me if we saw a ballot with David Cone but not Roger Clemens. Mark Grace gets elected, but not Mark McGwire.
   21. John DiFool2 Posted: April 22, 2022 at 08:12 PM (#6073158)
Chet Lemon...best player to never get a single MVP vote? In 1984 he had 6.2 WAR, 2nd on a very memorable team-usually gifted defenders @ key positions on pennant winners will at least get a few grudging 8-9-10's.
   22. Joyful Calculus Instructor Posted: April 22, 2022 at 08:27 PM (#6073160)
The insistence on screening committees and voting limits is, and always has been, really weird. It's like they're worried that if they're not careful the committee might end up electing Joe Charboneau.


In recent years they've inducted Harold Baines, Lee Smith, Jack Morris and Tony Oliva.
   23. SoSH U at work Posted: April 22, 2022 at 09:16 PM (#6073168)
21. Chester is close, though the Toy Cannon is usually atop the list.
   24. AndrewJ Posted: April 22, 2022 at 10:22 PM (#6073176)
23>> According to BB-Ref, Jimmy Wynn got MVP votes in 1967, '69 and '74. In 1974 he actually finished 5th in the NL voting, just above Mike Schmidt in his breakout season.
   25. John Northey Posted: April 23, 2022 at 12:37 AM (#6073193)
Looking at the list I'm hoping for Lou Whitaker to finally get in - he should've been long ago.

Others I'm cheering on this upcoming election would be...
Dwight Evans, Darrell Evans, Will Clark

For those 4 it really depends on who is doing the voting - if they are stats savvy or from Detroit then Sweet Lou should finally get in, with Darrell Evans (won a HR title as a Tiger at age 38) having a good shot.

No chance: Rafael Palmeiro, Mark McGwire (we all know why), and Kevin Brown (disliked by many it seems and has strong PED rumors)

I'd love to see as a Jays fan but know they won't make it...
David Cone, John Olerud, Dave Stieb

If Robin Ventura makes it they should have Nolan Ryan greet him with a fake punch :)

Now, if they put Tony LaRussa on the panel then McGwire has a shot, but I hope not - I was disgusted when he got in so easily when he managed McGwire for most of his career, along with Canseco early on (steroid rumors were very strong from day one for him). I see it as bad when the guy who probably encouraged it gets in but the guys who did it don't.
   26. Ron J Posted: April 23, 2022 at 08:18 AM (#6073195)
#23 Are you thinking of best player to get 0 HOF votes? Because Wynn has to be in the discussion.
   27. SoSH U at work Posted: April 23, 2022 at 12:03 PM (#6073205)
I misread 21.
   28. Steve Balboni's Personal Trainer Posted: April 23, 2022 at 02:10 PM (#6073214)
Among these three veterans committees, a two-part question:

1) Are there any of them that, if elected, you would go to the induction weekend because of them?

2) Who could be selected from these committees that would be the biggest draw for Cooperstown on induction weekend?

For me, as a big Red Sox fan who lives about a five-hour drive from Cooperstown, I'd say Dwight Evans would probably get me to go. If Bonds and/or Clemens got in, I'd be tempted to go just to see what it would be like. I may be forgetting others, but that's probably about it.

As for question #2, I'd imagine Boomer-aged Yankees fans would be a pretty good audience for somebody like Nettles or Randolph. Boomer Red Sox fans (who, like Yankees fans, generally live within a reasonable drive) might be into Dwight Evans and Luis Tiant. Any of the big PED guys might draw a crowd for curiosity, if nothing else. Maybe Whitaker (especially if combined with Freehan or Cash) would get a good Detroit crowd?
   29. Starring Bradley Scotchman as RMc Posted: April 23, 2022 at 04:41 PM (#6073235)
Others I'm cheering on this upcoming election would be...
Dwight Evans, Darrell Evans


They should elect everybody named Evans just to be on the safe side. (And "Evers", now that I think of it.)
   30. JimMusComp misses old primer... Posted: April 23, 2022 at 08:16 PM (#6073270)
#2 is the only sentence that need be uttered re: this change. It seems like every 6 months they change the plan re: the Era committees. It's a mess.
   31. Infinite Yost (Voxter) Posted: April 24, 2022 at 09:22 AM (#6073381)
It seems to me that the big, glaring error that remains, now that Santo has been inducted and Blyleven & Raines elected, is Grich. He'd be on the pre-1980 ballot, for sure, even though the only time he ever led the league in any batting stat was 1981. (22 dingers in a strike-shortened season.)
   32. sunday silence (again) Posted: April 24, 2022 at 02:11 PM (#6073422)
Campaneris seems criminally underrated. Munson seems qualified. Dick Allen probably deserving.
   33. The Duke Posted: April 24, 2022 at 06:03 PM (#6073478)
Jay Jaffe had a side by side on the new rules and there are a couple that stand out. Only eight candidates now instead of ten and only three votes per committee number instead of four.

It seems the pre-committee (or Selection committee) is the driver more than ever. Hernandez can't even get past the section committee (or Grich).

The next round of guys going in are likely Allen, Garvey, Parker and Dwight Evans based on voting patterns recently
   34. The Duke Posted: April 24, 2022 at 06:05 PM (#6073480)
It seems like the selection committee should be 20-30 people and they would need to vote yeah,nay on everyone with the top 15-20 being given to a more focused selection committee to narrow it down to 10 for the actual committee to vote on. I'm sure if a broader community saw all the names guys like Grich and Hernandez would start to make the cut.
   35. Moeball Posted: April 25, 2022 at 01:21 AM (#6073533)
#32 Campaneris makes me think how unusual those A's teams were. They weren't so much a team of stars as a team without weaknesses. Yes, Reggie was a legit HOFer but the other 2 elected (Hunter, Fingers) were really good, but not necessarily great. But that pretty much described the whole team. Good, but not great. Campaneris. Bando. Tenace. Rudi. Holtzman. Blue. All clearly better than average but none truly outstanding.
   36. sunday silence (again) Posted: April 25, 2022 at 04:24 AM (#6073539)
Moe: I disagree it may have seemed that way but not to me. I like to count how many players were 3 WAR or more. And extrapolate for guys on the bubble.

THe 72, 73 As have 7 which is about what you would expect for a pennant winner. THe 74 As have 7 guys at 4+ which is exceptional.

The 71 PIT has 6, 79 PIt has 7 (allowing for Moreno at 2.9)
72 CIN has 6; 75 CIN has 7. 76 CIN has 7 and Geronimo just misses being 8.
76 NYY has 7 (allowing for Gamble who extrapolates to almost 4)
75 BOS has 6 (allowing for Yaz who barely makes 3)

Teams that are stacked: 70 BAL: 9, 71 BAL 10 (extrapolating a little for BLair) 76 NYY 9 77 NYY 10 wow only the modern LAD have that many

The modern LAD are stacked of course. 2021 had 10.

So I dont think the As are really like that. Perhaps because it was a lower scoring era and the As were very strong on pitching and defense. Even the Big Red Machine who we always think of as being stacked is not really exceptional by this measure. I wouldn't have thought the NYY teams were but they are.

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