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Thursday, April 14, 2016

Hey Bill: Dick Allen, Ty Cobb, reputations

Allen was very charming, but he was a manipulator.  He had a genius for dividing people, and for picking petty quarrels in which the other person was always the bad guy.  Exactly one-half of his teammates loved him.  He was an alcoholic, and alcoholics are the greatest manipulators in the world; that’s why they make great managers.  Starting nine. . .well, Allen, Hornsby, Albert Belle, Joe Medwick.  Carl Mays.  Probably shouldn’t spend too much time with it; we all have our demons.  I don’t know that we’re better people than any of them were

Dennis Eclairskey, closer Posted: April 14, 2016 at 09:11 AM | 212 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
  Tags: bill james, dick allen, ty cobb

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   1. Itchy Row Posted: April 14, 2016 at 01:19 PM (#5196651)
I'm so sick of people like Carl Mays and Albert Belle killing people on the field.
   2. Hank Gillette Posted: April 14, 2016 at 02:52 PM (#5196813)
I don’t think it is really clear what the original question was. One could assume that Bill was asked to name an all-time alcoholic starting nine. The actual question (after asking about Allen) was “if a roster of difficult personalities were created who would be the starting nine and manager?”

I think Leo Durocher would be on the short list for manager. There ought to be a place for Dave Kingman too. One could argue that the Babe was a difficult personality, at least for management, but he seems to have been pretty good-natured overall, and I don’t think too many players actually disliked him. At the moment, I can’t think of any other players who were universally disliked to nominate.
   3. The usual palaver and twaddle (Met Fan Charlie) Posted: April 14, 2016 at 03:19 PM (#5196862)
"Ty Cobb wanted to come, but none of us could stand the sonuvabitch when he was alive HAHAHAHAHAHA!"
   4. Misirlou cut his hair and moved to Rome Posted: April 14, 2016 at 03:42 PM (#5196903)
I think Leo Durocher would be on the short list for manager.


Him or Billy Martin
   5. Misirlou cut his hair and moved to Rome Posted: April 14, 2016 at 03:43 PM (#5196906)
At the moment, I can’t think of any other players who were universally disliked to nominate.


AJ Pierogi
   6. SoSHially Unacceptable Posted: April 14, 2016 at 03:46 PM (#5196913)
AJ Pierogi


Only in SF, but that was a hell of a peak season.

Michael Barrett or Mitch Meluskey would also be good fits for catcher on the all-Carcinogenic team.

I'd also find room for Jonathan Papelbon, Milton Bradley and Jeff Kent. Vicente Padilla would be my starter.

   7. ReggieThomasLives Posted: April 14, 2016 at 03:49 PM (#5196918)
   8. Ron J2 Posted: April 14, 2016 at 04:11 PM (#5196939)
#6 "If you play against him, you hate him. If you play with him, you hate him a little less." -- Ozzie Guillen.

Hell, AJ knew hew was tough to take. (from wiki) During his turn at the microphone following the White Sox victory parade in 2005, he thanked team personnel "for putting up with me."

As for the Babe: I can think of more than a few people who didn't think much of him as a person. Harry Frazee, Miller Huggins and Wally Pipp.

Also, Ban Johnson to the Babe following his 5th suspension:

"It seems the period has arrived when you should allow some intelligence to creep into a mind that has plainly been warped." -- Ban Johnson ( Johnson also ordered the Yankees to strip Ruth of the captaincy)

EDIT: Ty Cobb didn't think much of Ruth and the feeling was mutual.

Cobb's the only manager I'm aware of to get in a fist fight with his own pitcher on the mound.

   9. SoSHially Unacceptable Posted: April 14, 2016 at 04:16 PM (#5196948)
#6 "If you play against him, you hate him. If you play with him, you hate him a little less." -- Ozzie Guillen.

Hell, AJ knew hew was tough to take. (from wiki) During his turn at the microphone following the White Sox victory parade in 2005, he thanked team personnel "for putting up with me."


That's one of my favorite Ozzie quotes. But other than the one-year stint in SF, A.J.'s kind of been an "our #######\" kind of guy, rather than someone his teammates truly despise. If he were really hated by his teammates, he probably would have washed out a long time ago.
   10. cardsfanboy Posted: April 14, 2016 at 04:31 PM (#5196968)

That's one of my favorite Ozzie quotes. But other than the one-year stint in SF, A.J.'s kind of been an "our #######\" kind of guy, rather than someone his teammates truly despise. If he were really hated by his teammates, he probably would have washed out a long time ago.


Exactly, I have never gotten the impression that he was disliked by his own team. The Cardinals liked him enough, that even now they say positive things about him, when we play against him.
   11. Gonfalon Bubble Posted: April 14, 2016 at 05:29 PM (#5197020)
I'm so sick of people like Carl Mays and Albert Belle killing people on the field.


When's the last time any of us saw Fernando Vina alive?
   12. No longer interested in this website Posted: April 14, 2016 at 07:18 PM (#5197070)
Exactly one-half of his teammates loved him.


Is this supposed to be an indictment? Is James implying that the other half hated him? Because 50% love is pretty damn good in most workplaces.

At any rate, James has long had a quarrel with Dick Allen. He's long been a favorite HOF candidate of mine, and I made it a point to talk to any former ballplayer or manager about Allen when I had a chance. Every one said how great a player he was and not one said anything bad about him personally (and I asked). Not scientific, but...

Cobb's reputation was so smeared by Al Stump that he's a cartoon character now. I'd guess that most of the people here, many of whom are pretty damn knowledgeable about the game, think Cobb was a violent racist. Of course, he was not, which is a shock to most people, who are happiest when their delusions are confirmed not repudiated.

I am very uncomfortable with James' comments about alcoholics. Some of it is misguided. Hell, MOST PEOPLE are master manipulators. James once wrote a 3-4,000 word essay about Cobb for one of his Historical Abstracts and it was almost complete nonsense, simply factually inaccurate. This was at a time when James' was getting very sloppy and others (Eric Enders chief among them) have written about this period when James' work was very shoddy.
   13. Leroy Kincaid Posted: April 14, 2016 at 07:51 PM (#5197080)
Exactly one-half of his teammates loved him


The bottom half?
   14. Hank Gillette Posted: April 14, 2016 at 08:36 PM (#5197088)
Is this supposed to be an indictment? Is James implying that the other half hated him? Because 50% love is pretty damn good in most workplaces.


I think that was the implication. The exact quote was:

Allen was very charming, but he was a manipulator. He had a genius for dividing people, and for picking petty quarrels in which the other person was always the bad guy. Exactly one-half of his teammates loved him.


I am aware of James’ long-time antipathy towards Allen. What he said here was actually quite a softening from some of his previous comments. I’ve read about some of Allen’s actions which sound problematical to me, but I think the majority of his troubles came from not being willing to accept the treatment he received as a black man in that era and I can’t really fault him for that.
   15. Zach Posted: April 14, 2016 at 10:13 PM (#5197122)
Exactly one-half of his teammates loved him.


Is this supposed to be an indictment? Is James implying that the other half hated him? Because 50% love is pretty damn good in most workplaces.


He's saying Allen was a troublemaker. In other writings (this has come up before), James has written that Allen would always pick a fight with somebody and force everybody on the team to pick Team Allen or Team Anti-Allen.
   16. The Duke Posted: April 14, 2016 at 10:48 PM (#5197134)
Zambrano, Hal chase, templeton, billy Martin, durocher, the Atlanta relief pitcher (cAnt remember his name) and the winner would have to be Milton Bradley or maybe even a-rod
   17. the Hugh Jorgan returns Posted: April 14, 2016 at 11:05 PM (#5197154)
Atlanta relief pitcher


John Rocker?

Milton Bradley is a pretty terrible person...
   18. Dennis Eclairskey, closer Posted: April 14, 2016 at 11:38 PM (#5197166)
John Rocker aka Kenny Powers. Delmon Young is a pretty despicable human being, except during the playoffs

I was surprised to see Bill James' comment on Dick Allen with what has become an unpopular viewpoint as in the last several years most articles either set out to explain Allen's reputation or discredit negative things said about him. Allen's HOF case suffers from not only reputation issues but also that his career was short for a HOFer. Personally, I'd like to see him get in, especially since he came just one vote shy on the last Golden Era ballot.
   19. Infinite Yost (Voxter) Posted: April 14, 2016 at 11:58 PM (#5197172)
Of course, he was not,


Of course?
   20. Baseballs Most Beloved Figure Posted: April 15, 2016 at 12:10 AM (#5197178)
I don’t think too many players actually disliked him.
Durocher. Durocher disliked Ruth and the feeling was mutual.
   21. Sunday silence: Play Guess How long season lasts Posted: April 15, 2016 at 12:12 AM (#5197179)
I remember reading the Bill James article on Dick Allen where he tore him apart (I think it was the Historical Abstract) and then seeing Allen at an old timers game and the strong support he was receiving from alot of old timers there. They seemed to genuinely like him. Craig Wright wrote the rebuttal to this article in one of the SABR magazines (found in Andy's old book store). Wrights piece was a lot different but there are still a few things that didnt ring true, like when he cut his hand on a headlight when pushing a lady's stranded vehicle. Yeah I dont believe it.

The late Harveys seemed to have some insight into Dick Allen but I never found out if Harvey had ever met Dick or what. You never about these old timers, who they knew. I asked Harvey but he never elaborated. Does Wahoo Sam have any more insights into Allen?
   22. SoSHially Unacceptable Posted: April 15, 2016 at 12:22 AM (#5197183)
I believe some of the more supportive comments about Allen from his later years were partially a byproduct of residual guilt. That while he was indeed a difficult player, the ballplayers/managers/coaches who worked with him also recognized that they didn't handle his strong personality very well, and tried to make amends for whatever role they might have had in his difficulties. But the idea that Dick Allen was difficult did not originate with Bill James. It was a theme throughout his much-traveled career.

   23. It's regretful that PASTE was able to get out Posted: April 15, 2016 at 12:22 AM (#5197184)
I think James' most memorable anti-Allen screed was in The Politics of Glory, wherein he said (I'm typing this from memory so the quotes won't be word perfect) that Allen "did more to prevent his teams from winning than almost anyone in the history of baseball" and "if that's a Hall of Famer, I'm a lug nut." He also predicted, correctly, all the way back into the early 1980s that Allen would decades down the road become a popular Hall of Fame cause, because his destructive narcissism would slowly but inexorably fade from living memory but his statistics would remain forever, and his statistics are Hall of Fame worthy.

James wrote The Politics of Glory in the early 1990s and the NHBA in the late 1990s; I'm not sure where exactly his purported period of sloppiness falls. And I'm skeptical any such period happened. Bill James (like most of us) is still fundamentally the same person he was 30 years ago; even those of us who loved him when he was blowing the lid off the Raccoon Lodge in the 1980s have long since moved on and have regarded him as a blowhard for a long time now. (Not me, personally; he's still one of my favorite writers, personally. But I'm in a small and dwindling minority about that, it seems.)
   24. It's regretful that PASTE was able to get out Posted: April 15, 2016 at 12:33 AM (#5197188)
As for me and Dick Allen... it seems clear from the contemporary record that

1. He was an #######; and
2. He seethed at racism and railed against it more aggressively than any other ballplayer of his time.

To what extent he should be forgiven for being an ####### because he was the victim of racism, I am not qualified to pass judgment on that, because the Sixties were a complex and extraordinary time, and I wasn't there, and I can't hope to understand the issues involved. Whether he gets a Hall of Fame plaque or not, I don't feel strongly one way or another about that. Certainly he would not be the first ####### in the Hall of Fame, though he's somewhat less clearly qualified than Rogers Hornsby.

It is interesting, the way teams repeatedly got rid of him even while he was bludgeoning the hell out of pitchers. If, somehow, someone well versed in baseball history but who had never heard of Dick Allen were to peruse his b-ref page, I imagine he'd be quite amazed and fascinated by how many times Allen was traded while producing superstar batting numbers all the while. But--again--many argue that it wasn't so much that he was out-and-out a dick as he was, in the parlance of old white people at the time, "uppity". That could be so. I wasn't there; I have no idea.
   25. 185/456(GGC) Posted: April 15, 2016 at 07:19 AM (#5197216)
I was reading something recently about how Sam Lacy compared Ruth to Jack Johnson. Lacy wasn't a Johnson fan.
   26. Steve Parris, Je t'aime Posted: April 15, 2016 at 08:43 AM (#5197231)
Of course, he was not,

Of course?

You didn't hear? There was a book last year; apparently Cobb was an angel.

Actually there was good discussion of the book a few days ago here.
   27. You Know Nothing JT Snow (YR) Posted: April 15, 2016 at 09:07 AM (#5197246)
I was reading something recently about how Sam Lacy compared Ruth to Jack Johnson.


I can't imagine what the two had in common...unless what Cobb said about Ruth was true.
   28. Mike Webber Posted: April 15, 2016 at 10:08 AM (#5197301)
Elijah Dukes should be an add to the all-difficult personality team, and Ugueth Urbina.
   29. ERROR---Jolly Old St. Nick Posted: April 15, 2016 at 10:21 AM (#5197312)
I was reading something recently about how Sam Lacy compared Ruth to Jack Johnson.


I can't imagine what the two had in common...unless what Cobb said about Ruth was true.

Well, they both took what they wanted and they were both larger than life. It's not a bad comparison at all.

And BTW Ruth was enormously popular among black fans.
   30. You Know Nothing JT Snow (YR) Posted: April 15, 2016 at 11:05 AM (#5197362)
I can't imagine what the two had in common...unless what Cobb said about Ruth was true.

Well, they both took what they wanted


"I don't want to defend my title against black people."

"OK champ!"
   31. winnipegwhip Posted: April 15, 2016 at 11:41 AM (#5197406)
For bad teammates and alcohol "The King" hasn't been mentioned yet.

Matt Bush still has a chance to climb this list.
   32. Traderdave Posted: April 15, 2016 at 11:51 AM (#5197419)
21:

You say "the late Harveys"???

I knew the end was nigh from posts a couple weeks ago, but I didn't know he has passed.

Very sad to hear. Was there a "memorial" or "obituary" thread or some such that you could point me to?

   33. Traderdave Posted: April 15, 2016 at 11:58 AM (#5197432)
Nevermind. Found it.

Very sad.

   34. bjhanke Posted: April 15, 2016 at 12:17 PM (#5197452)
   35. bjhanke Posted: April 15, 2016 at 12:21 PM (#5197455)
What the heck. I'll give it a try, just to get the party started:

P Lefty Grove
C Thurman Munson
1B Dick Allen
2B Rogers Hornsby
3B Greg Nettles
SS Vern Stephens
LF Ted Williams
CF Ty Cobb
RF Reggie Jackson

Manager John McGraw

lineup:
Cobb
Hornsby
Williams
Allen
Jackson
Stephens
Nettles
Munson
Grove

If that team doesn't self-destruct, you're going to have a hard time beating them. - Brock Hanke
   36. Mudpout Posted: April 15, 2016 at 12:28 PM (#5197463)
Some of those guys sound unpleasant, and put in all in one room you probably got trouble, but not enough really fit the bill of "clubhouse cancer". No Denny McLain? Is Joe Pepitone on the bench? No honourable mention to Chick Gandil or Swede Risberg?
   37. Ron J2 Posted: April 15, 2016 at 12:35 PM (#5197471)
#35 I think Carl Mays has a good claim to the pitcher spot. Of course you need more than one pitcher.

Dave Steib and Jim Palmer were disliked by quite a few teammates. Charley Radbourne was suspended (in his 59 win season) for hitting his catcher with the ball (for dropping a 3rd strike) but Charlie Sweeney actually upped the ante. Released for showing up for a game drunk, pitching badly and refusing to go to RF -- where the emergency pitcher was stashed. (While Radbourne was suspended. Seems to have been a ploy to get released because he signed a new contract in the AA directly after being released)
   38. Ron J2 Posted: April 15, 2016 at 12:36 PM (#5197472)
#36 Pretty much have to include Mike Donlin too.

EDIT: I think Brock's list is heavily influenced by ability.
   39. cardsfanboy Posted: April 15, 2016 at 12:36 PM (#5197473)
If that team doesn't self-destruct, you're going to have a hard time beating them. - Brock Hanke


No Milton Bradley?
   40. Traderdave Posted: April 15, 2016 at 12:49 PM (#5197487)
I don't know much about Stephens but never heard that he was a jerk, etc

Can anyone elaborate?

   41. Ron J2 Posted: April 15, 2016 at 01:17 PM (#5197521)
#40 For whatever reason there don't seem to be a lot of great SS who were jerks. With Stephens you've got the documented issues of his drinking, plus some rumors that he went into such a steep decline because of a poor work ethic.

I guess you could cheat and use Hornsby -- he did start out there. And there's Bad Bill, but he doesn't seem to have been unpopular with his teammates. He had a lot of problems with certain umpires and with management and some members of the press but I can't think of any player related issues.
   42. vortex of dissipation Posted: April 15, 2016 at 01:37 PM (#5197551)
For whatever reason there don't seem to be a lot of great SS who were jerks. With Stephens you've got the documented issues of his drinking, plus some rumors that he went into such a steep decline because of a poor work ethic.

I guess you could cheat and use Hornsby -- he did start out there. And there's Bad Bill, but he doesn't seem to have been unpopular with his teammates. He had a lot of problems with certain umpires and with management and some members of the press but I can't think of any player related issues.


Leo Durocher. Maybe not up to their level as a ballplayer, but certainly as a jerk.
   43. simon bedford Posted: April 15, 2016 at 01:51 PM (#5197571)
Not sure if it was just up here in Toronto, but Shea Hillenbrand had a dreadful reputation as a clubhouse cancer up here.
   44. winnipegwhip Posted: April 15, 2016 at 01:57 PM (#5197581)
Johnny Allen would probably be on the pitching staff.

#35 since we have Dick Allen and Reggie Jackson on the team let's pick up Jake Powell and put him on the bench. That should clinch the team blowing up.
   45. Jay Z Posted: April 15, 2016 at 02:07 PM (#5197603)
Allen's second stint in Philly was instructive as to his personality. How it was generally played in the press was that people felt bad about his first tour there and wanted everyone to get along. So Allen has his first year there, big dropoff from his White Sox production, but everyone seemed to get along. The next year he hit better but was on the DL multiple times.

At the end of the 1976 season Allen finally makes the playoffs for the first time. As the Phillies are clinching, he proceeds to throw a snit about Tony Taylor not being on the post-season roster. Taylor was not on the roster most of the season; he spent a lot of time on the DL himself and was only active when Allen himself was on the DL. The Phillies had a very solid roster that year with basically every other player going the whole way. So the only way to get Taylor on the roster was to pull someone off who'd been active the whole season. Would that be fair for a guy who'd gone 6 for 23 and really could only hit singles at age 40?

Nevertheless, Allen threatened to not play in the post-season himself unless Taylor was activated. Eventually things were smoothed over and Taylor was made a coach for the playoffs.

Given enough time, Allen was the kind of guy who was always going to soil his nest. He just couldn't have a happy ending anywhere. A lot like Gary Sheffield, though Sheffield was visibly grumpier. I'm sure Allen is fine at Old Timers games, charming, because he's only there for a short time. But Allen was never the sort of guy who could stay in a settled situation. It's a frustrating thing if you're a fan and trying to cheer him and your team on. Allen was going to be a malcontent regardless of circumstance.
   46. ERROR---Jolly Old St. Nick Posted: April 15, 2016 at 02:32 PM (#5197624)
P Lefty Grove
C Thurman Munson
1B Dick Allen
2B Rogers Hornsby
3B Greg Nettles
SS Vern Stephens
LF Ted Williams
CF Ty Cobb
RF Reggie Jackson

Manager John McGraw


Not a bad list, although it's "Craig" Nettles, not "Greg". I'd add a few more:

C: Boss Schmidt
1B: Hal Chase
2B: Jeff Kent
3B: Pie Traynor**
SS: Garry Templeton
OF: Carl Yastrzemski
OF: Gary Sheffield
OF: Jake Powell
SP: Carl Mays
RP: John Rocker

Manager: Ben Chapman
GM: Bo Schembechler
Owner: Charlie Comiskey

** A 12 year old boy I knew wrote to every living HOFer for an autograph. Traynor was the only one who didn't respond. The boy finally got it by sending Traynor a registered letter with a request for a signed return receipt. (Inside, the letter said "Ha, ha, got your autograph.") The boy later went on to become the head of the New York State Banking Commission and now works for De Blasio. (/That's the rest of the story)

EDIT: cokes all around
   47. Ron J2 Posted: April 15, 2016 at 02:41 PM (#5197637)
SS: Garry Templeton

Good call. As was Durocher.
   48. Hysterical & Useless Posted: April 15, 2016 at 02:46 PM (#5197642)
Not a bad list, although it's "Craig" Nettles, not "Greg".


How about we compromise on "Graig?"
   49. Steve Treder Posted: April 15, 2016 at 02:49 PM (#5197648)
Given enough time, Allen was the kind of guy who was always going to soil his nest. He just couldn't have a happy ending anywhere. A lot like Gary Sheffield, though Sheffield was visibly grumpier. I'm sure Allen is fine at Old Timers games, charming, because he's only there for a short time. But Allen was never the sort of guy who could stay in a settled situation. It's a frustrating thing if you're a fan and trying to cheer him and your team on. Allen was going to be a malcontent regardless of circumstance.


That's it exactly. Moreover (or perhaps this is just another manifestation of the personality dynamic), Allen drank very heavily (even by the standards of ballplayers of his era), was poorly conditioned, and demonstrated a weak work ethic. This doesn't necessarily make him a bad person, but it certainly makes him a bad example for young players learning how big stars comport themselves. There was much more than just the racial tension explaining why he drove management nuts.
   50. Rally Posted: April 15, 2016 at 03:16 PM (#5197671)
Allen drank very heavily (even by the standards of ballplayers of his era), was poorly conditioned, and demonstrated a weak work ethic.


2 of the 3 I get, but from what I can tell he looked like he was in pretty good shape. In every photo I can find during his career and what I've seen of him since he retired.
   51. ERROR---Jolly Old St. Nick Posted: April 15, 2016 at 03:17 PM (#5197674)
Not a bad list, although it's "Craig" Nettles, not "Greg".

How about we compromise on "Graig?"


Just testing to see if the thread was still alive. (smile)
   52. cardsfanboy Posted: April 15, 2016 at 03:18 PM (#5197676)
Not a bad list, although it's "Craig" Nettles, not "Greg".


Am I missing a joke here, since the correction is equally as wrong as the original comment?
   53. Hysterical & Useless Posted: April 15, 2016 at 03:19 PM (#5197678)
Random plug for this year's NYC softball game! If you haven't already, pop over to the thread and let us know if you'll be coming.
   54. ERROR---Jolly Old St. Nick Posted: April 15, 2016 at 03:19 PM (#5197679)
SS: Garry Templeton

Good call.


In fairness, I only included Templeton because of his famous "If I ain't startin', I ain't departin'" comment about an All-Star game, but it's hard to imagine that sort of a remark coming from a non-attitudinal sorta fella.
   55. Hysterical & Useless Posted: April 15, 2016 at 03:21 PM (#5197682)
RE: G H Ruth, my recollection is that he wasn't Lou Gehrig's most favorite teammate...
   56. ERROR---Jolly Old St. Nick Posted: April 15, 2016 at 03:22 PM (#5197684)

Am I missing a joke here, since the correction is equally as wrong as the original comment?

Nah, I just caught the "e" so quickly I forgot about the rest of the spelling. Of course it's "Graig", his momma just couldn't spell.
   57. cardsfanboy Posted: April 15, 2016 at 03:29 PM (#5197688)
In fairness, I only included Templeton because of his famous "If I ain't startin', I ain't departin'" comment about an All-Star game, but it's hard to imagine that sort of a remark coming from a non-attitudinal sorta fella.


He's also a guy who flipped off the fans in St Louis. (that was a big reason why Herzog wanted to trade him, plus Herzog prefers people who don't have an ego nearly as big as his, and he REALLY loved Ozzie's defense)
   58. Steve Treder Posted: April 15, 2016 at 04:14 PM (#5197744)

2 of the 3 I get, but from what I can tell he looked like he was in pretty good shape. In every photo I can find during his career and what I've seen of him since he retired.


Given that his workout regimen consisted of beer, cigarettes, and watching the ponies, he looked amazing.
   59. SoSHially Unacceptable Posted: April 15, 2016 at 04:24 PM (#5197754)
58. Steve Treder

Where the hell have you been?
   60. cardsfanboy Posted: April 15, 2016 at 04:34 PM (#5197761)

Where the hell have you been?


Filming the Wonder Woman movie.....

oh, wait, that is Steve Trevor....nevermind.
   61. WSPanic Posted: April 15, 2016 at 04:55 PM (#5197772)
Everything we knew about Ty Cobb was wrong


Thanks for posting. That was an interesting read.

He still jumped in the stands and beat up a three-fingered man (not Mordecai Brown), and still beat a teammate unconscious. So, I wouldn't say everything we knew was wrong. But clearly a lot was.
   62. Don Malcolm Posted: April 15, 2016 at 11:00 PM (#5197953)
People forget that Allen was accident-prone, which is an aspect of his personality that is a perverse form of self-payback for all his internalizing and channeling of trauma. The headlight incident in '67 brought malingering into the mix, which permanently poisoned the first stint in Philly and paradoxically manifested in his 70s incarnation as a craving for special treatment. But the injuries kept coming, in part because he played hard (harder than anyone seems to remember). Once injured, he had way too much time on his hands--which induced his two major tantrums (retirement due to trauma in Chicago in '74, the Taylor incident in '76).

Bill James has always evidenced a Calvinist streak that clashes with his ironic pose WRT moral issues. He heaped abuse on Allen because he didn't suck it up in the 60s the way Robinson did in the 40s, forgetting that Jackie stopped doing that in 1948 and became the straw that stirred the pot from that point on. It's easy to suggest that Allen was "too sensitive" about the treatment he received in Little Rock in '63, but people forget that the racial battles were becoming a good bit more pitched (and downright dangerous) at this time, as there had been enough time for a backlash to set in, just as has been the case over the course of the Obama years. That Bill can't let go of that Calvinism is evident in his need to keep bringing up the subject when he would be much better off just saying "Pass" the way he did in the NHBA on Jeff Bagwell.

   63. cardsfanboy Posted: April 15, 2016 at 11:10 PM (#5197960)
The thing is that from a baseball perspective, none of that matters. The only thing that matters when judging a player by his MLB performance is his MLB performance and anything he did to help or hurt the team. The reasoning doesn't matter, it's whether or not he made a noticeable impact on the teams performance.

Bill James argues that Allen did. It doesn't matter whether he was justified or had right cause or even defensible reasons, it matters only whether he made a difference beyond the numbers.
   64. Drexl Spivey Posted: April 16, 2016 at 12:57 AM (#5197990)
.



   65. SoSHially Unacceptable Posted: April 16, 2016 at 01:09 AM (#5197994)


I assume that Harveys was referring to a story in the book "Catcher in the Wry" by Bob Uecker.

When the Phillies traded away Uecker, Allen said something like "they just traded away my best friend on this team."

Uecker's opinion of Allen was basically that he was a good guy once you got to know him.


I doubt that. Harvey was not pro-Allen.
   66. bachslunch Posted: April 16, 2016 at 06:14 AM (#5198005)
@46: surprised to see Yaz on the difficult list. Details appreciated, thanks.
   67. Dag Nabbit at ExactlyAsOld.com Posted: April 16, 2016 at 07:20 AM (#5198009)
Anyone mentioned Alex Johnson yet?

Benched for indifferent play, pulled a gun on a teammate in the clubhouse, the Angels fined him 29 times in three months before suspending him without pay (which led to a union grievance).

The talk of Garry Templeton is overdone. Yes, he did flick off the fans in St. Louis and absolutely that's bad. But then he played 10 more years in the big leagues without incident. He's a guy who needed to grow up - but then grew up.

I also disagree with the mentioning of Charles Comiskey above. He was in baseball, almost always with successful teams, from the 1880s until 1920. And a lot of historians will say the "miserly old Charles Comiskey" image from Eight Men Out is overblown.

Want an owner? Try Charles O. Finley. Yes, he won by my God was he ever an ####### who everyone hated. Just ask Mike Andrews. (And while he won three pennants, Comiskey won four with the White Sox - 1901, 1906, 1917, and 1919. And that's not including Comiskey's influence putting together the 1880s St. Louis juggernaut in the old AA).

@46: surprised to see Yaz on the difficult list. Details appreciated, thanks.

He's had a reputation for being a prick. He supposedly got Dick Williams ran out of town because they didn't get along (and Red Sox owner Tom Yawkey was chummy with Yaz, giving him a direct line to the highest seat of power with the team). Stories of Yaz come up a few times in Jim Bouton's Ball Four. In one point, it's noted that Yaz tried to rally some stars against union head Marvin Miller only to find no one was on Yaz's side. The attitude of the Seattle Pilots bullpen was that Yaz was just a self-serving jerk. Also, at another point in the book they're discussing that Dick Williams (who would be fired a few months later) had either fined and suspended Yaz - and the MLB grapevine had it that the Red Sox dugout strongly backed their skipper as they felt someone needed to put Yaz in his place.

On a random note, I remember reading something about baseball autographs a few years ago. The story was talking to people who organize these conventions where the former players sell their autograph. One person noted how Cal Ripken Jr. was the best. He realized that the fan wasn't just buying an autograph, but the moment. Cal always made eye contact. Was always polite. He'd always smile. He had no problem personalizing an autograph. He would take photos - he'd make the moment special. Anyhow, getting back to the point, the same article juxtaposed Cal with Yaz. Apparently, Yaz was/is the absolute worst guy on the autograph circuit in terms of how he treated the autograph seekers. No words, no small talk, no smiles -- in fact, he rarely even bothered looking up at the autograph seeker.

I dunno if Yaz really belongs on a most difficult list. You can find plenty of guys before you got to him. (Again, Alex Johnson pulled a gun on someone once in the clubhouse). But that's the case against him.

Then again, Hawk Harelson absolutely adores Yaz and can't stop talking about him.
   68. bjhanke Posted: April 16, 2016 at 07:37 AM (#5198013)
Ron J2 (#38) is correct. I tried to think of the best players at every position who were just terrible to deal with, if you got on their bad side. There are certainly worse people at every position. Hal Chase sort of laps the field of worst people, but he was nowhere near the player that Dick Allen was. As Don Malcolm notes, a lot of Dick's problems weren't necessarily self-created. He was in Little Rock when white families were starting up private schools so their kids would not have to attend schools with black kids. I'm not sure whether 1963 was the big blowup year there, or whether it was 1964, but I dated a woman for three years who was in high school in Little Rock at that time - and who was Hispanic. My God, the stories. And Allen wasn't even Hispanic; he was downright black. Then he moved up to the Phillies, where the fans boo everybody. I was making a list of the best players I could think of who were difficult to deal with as their careers existed, not necessarily the ones who would have been jerks no matter what their environment. Dick Allen's environment was probably close to being as bad as Jackie Robinson's, who wasn't easy to deal with, either. And Allen did not have Branch Rickey backing him up.

Vern Stephens was an alcoholic superstar who let his abilities go to his head, largely because he was on two teams - the Browns in wartime and the Red Sox after - which were not happy in their clubhouses in general, and whose ballparks made power hitters look even better than they were. The interesting thing about the Browns at the time is that their manager was collecting alcoholics. Stephens, Sig Jacucki, Mike Kreevich, some others, those were the people who won the pennant in 1944. Kreevich was a very deliberate reclamation project. Stephens was the shortstop, and a good glove, AND the cleanup hitter. He had reason to have an ego. But egos full of alcohol aren't easy to deal with.

Templeton, on the other hand, was a kid superstar on a good team whose manager, Red Schoendienst, had lost control of the clubhouse. Red is the nicest of nice guys, but he imposed no discipline as a result. Reading biographies of the players on the 1967-68 pennant winners that he managed, you get the idea that Bob Gibson controlled the clubhouse. When Gibby retired, things went south. Ted Simmons, Templeton, and Keith Hernandez were all hard to get along with from the day they arrived. And then there was cocaine. The Cards eventually tried Vern Rapp, who insisted on treating major league superstars as minor leaguers in need of fundamentals instruction, and then Ken Boyer, who was Red all over again. Finally, they got it right with Whitey. Meanwhile, Templeton got traded to the Padres, and stopped being a problem. Essentially, all he needed was one reality check.

Which leads to Ozzie Smith. Ozzie's personality career is similar to Templeton's, which is the biggest reason they were traded for each other. Ozzie's idea of contract negotiations with the Padres included taking an ad out in the newspaper advertising his services as, I think, a yard worker, to emphasize how little his contract offers were in his mind. When the Pads traded him for Garry, it was, really, a swap of problem star shortstops. Both of them only needed the one reality check. People forget this because Ozzie became very famous and had a much better career than Templeton, but when they were traded, it was considered, if anything, that the Cards got the worst of it, because Ozzie couldn't hit and Garry could field very well. Personally, I might put in a pitch for Phil Rizzuto. People who LIKE Rizzuto - people who like him a LOT, like Bill White - describe him as what amounts to a charismatic sociopath. Phil would leave the broadcast booth in the 7th inning, to beat traffic, leaving White to do the last part of the game, and any extra innings, by himself. And when White would mention a sponsor and get a load of free stuff as a result, Phil would sometimes just plain steal it. And White LOVED Rizzuto anyway. That has to be just monstrous amounts of charisma, but attached to a personality that, really, doesn't pay any attention to the good of others. I chose Stephens because I didn't want to derail the thread into a Rizzuto thread.

I apologize for butchering Nettles' first name.

If I REALLY wanted to detonate a team, it would be with Dick Allen and the impossible Jeff Heath. - Brock Hanke
   69. zzz Posted: April 16, 2016 at 10:16 AM (#5198029)
Whatever happened to Elijah Dukes?
   70. Hysterical & Useless Posted: April 16, 2016 at 10:34 AM (#5198037)
Finally, they got it right with Whitey.


Careful, Brock. If CFB sees that you'll be on his enemies list.
   71. SoSHially Unacceptable Posted: April 16, 2016 at 10:39 AM (#5198040)
Templeton got traded to the Padres, and stopped being a problem.


He also stopped being as good at baseball when he went there.
   72. Tony S Posted: April 16, 2016 at 03:46 PM (#5198162)

Templeton's an odd case. As SoSH said, he seems to have matured as a person in San Diego but became a very ordinary player. What's especially weird is that Dick Williams was a big defender of Templeton -- and Williams had about the shortest fuse around when it came to problem players. So it was quite a turnaround.

But I think I'd rather have a highly productive and mercurial Templeton on my roster than the well-adjusted mediocrity he became.



   73. FrankM Posted: April 16, 2016 at 07:43 PM (#5198261)
Templeton had knee problems, which led to his becoming an ordinary player.
   74. All In The Guetterman, Looking Up At The Stargell Posted: April 16, 2016 at 10:23 PM (#5198329)
I nominate the entire 1986 Mets with the exception of Mookie Wilson. Also, the three Perez brothers: Pascual, Melido, and Carlos. And Earl Williams, about whom I knew nothing (way before my time) until I read the SABR bio of him a few days ago.

He's had a reputation for being a prick. He supposedly got Dick Williams ran out of town because they didn't get along (and Red Sox owner Tom Yawkey was chummy with Yaz, giving him a direct line to the highest seat of power with the team). Stories of Yaz come up a few times in Jim Bouton's Ball Four. In one point, it's noted that Yaz tried to rally some stars against union head Marvin Miller only to find no one was on Yaz's side. The attitude of the Seattle Pilots bullpen was that Yaz was just a self-serving jerk. Also, at another point in the book they're discussing that Dick Williams (who would be fired a few months later) had either fined and suspended Yaz - and the MLB grapevine had it that the Red Sox dugout strongly backed their skipper as they felt someone needed to put Yaz in his place.


There's the Coniglario brothers story. I recently watched the 1971 All-Star game on youtube and was surprised to hear it mentioned in the broadcast.

Agree with 67 & 68 in RE: Templeton.

Adding:
What's especially weird is that Dick Williams was a big defender of Templeton -- and Williams had about the shortest fuse around when it came to problem players. So it was quite a turnaround.


People should remember what a weird clubhouse Templeton went to. Wiggins, plus Eric Show, Thurmond, and I think there were a few other crackpot Birchers. GT couldn't have been the biggest jerk there if he'd tried.
   75. Greg K Posted: April 16, 2016 at 11:12 PM (#5198338)
Whatever happened to Elijah Dukes?

Last I heard was that story about him threatening his girlfriend by texting her a photo of the gun he was going to use to shoot her.

It was kind of impressive that he managed to make Delmon Young look like the well-behaved one when they were both Rays prospects.
   76. ERROR---Jolly Old St. Nick Posted: April 17, 2016 at 12:21 AM (#5198352)
Then again, Hawk Harelson absolutely adores Yaz and can't stop talking about him.

That might be because he was Yaz's teammate during the absolute peak of Yaz's career, when he was playing like a HOFer and not just a HOVGer.

------------------------------------------------

I nominate the entire 1986 Mets with the exception of Mookie Wilson.

I'd counter with most of the core of the 1985 Cardinals: Whitey, Andujar, Coleman, Clark, Van Slyke, and TOO-dah. The Mets at least had some color to them, whereas the Cardinals were just outright creepy and sullen.
   77. ERROR---Jolly Old St. Nick Posted: April 17, 2016 at 12:26 AM (#5198353)
People should remember what a weird clubhouse Templeton went to. Wiggins, plus Eric Show, Thurmond, and I think there were a few other crackpot Birchers. GT couldn't have been the biggest jerk there if he'd tried.

The 1984 Padres were a pretty amazing bunch, with four actual members of the John Birch Society: Show, Thurmond, Terry Kennedy, and Dave Dravecky. For some reason it seems like more than a coincidence that it was a San Diego team that harbored them, given that Southern California was a hotbed of Birchism and elected several Birchers to Congress.
   78. SoSHially Unacceptable Posted: April 17, 2016 at 12:48 AM (#5198361)
The 1984 Padres were a pretty amazing bunch, with four actual members of the John Birch Society: Show, Thurmond, Terry Kennedy, and Dave Dravecky.


Are you sure about Kennedy? Every mention of the Padre Birchers was just the three pitchers.

   79. Booey Posted: April 17, 2016 at 01:29 AM (#5198365)
You say "the late Harveys"???

I knew the end was nigh from posts a couple weeks ago, but I didn't know he has passed.

Very sad to hear. Was there a "memorial" or "obituary" thread or some such that you could point me to?


I hadn't heard this either. :-(

When/where was the thread? I can't find it.
   80. All In The Guetterman, Looking Up At The Stargell Posted: April 17, 2016 at 01:46 AM (#5198367)
hat might be because he was Yaz's teammate during the absolute peak of Yaz's career


IIRC, Billy Congiliaro said Yaz was the reason the Red Sox got rid of Hawk.

I'd counter with most of the core of the 1985 Cardinals: Whitey, Andujar, Coleman, Clark, Van Slyke, and TOO-dah. The Mets at least had some color to them, whereas the Cardinals were just outright creepy and sullen.


BLAH BLAH BLAH I CAN'T HEAR YOU, ANDY.

Whitey got rid of the drug addicted malcontents - or at least the ones who hadn't cleaned up. Porter by 85 was a clean-living Jesus freak, and a shell of the player he had been. Skates was shipped to the Royals early in the year. Hernandez was gone in 83. Andujar IIRC did have to testify at the Pittsburgh drug trials but I think regarding behavior he engaged in while _with Houston_. I dunno why anyone not a Dodgers fan would hate Jack Clark. Coleman wasn't an ####### til he went to New York, of course. Van Slyke didn't become outspoken until he was in Pittsburgh and didn't become really outspoken until he'd retired as a player. I'm not really sure, then, how anyone could say the 85 Cardinals were obnoxious players (until they were cheated out of the World Series, I mean, then they were righteously obnoxious) but the more successful team full of more addicts and tragedies, the 1982 team, wasn't. Unless the antipathy is based only on a player acquired in 84/85 off-season, John Tudor -- and I suspect it is. Why him? Surely there were other players who had snotty Upstate NY accents? It's not like he talked #### in interviews or was a hothead on the field. The only fit he threw -- when he punched the electric fan after being taken out of WAS game 7 -- wasn't IIRC shown on TV and was only publicized because he was injured because of it.

(NB: John Tudor was cheated out of a lot of the 87 season because the catcher from the Patrick Bateman Cocaine Sociopath team launched himself into the Cardinals dugout and broke Tudor's leg.)
   81. Don Malcolm Posted: April 17, 2016 at 04:21 AM (#5198380)
The thing is that from a baseball perspective, none of that matters. The only thing that matters when judging a player by his MLB performance is his MLB performance and anything he did to help or hurt the team. The reasoning doesn't matter, it's whether or not he made a noticeable impact on the teams performance.

Bill James argues that Allen did. It doesn't matter whether he was justified or had right cause or even defensible reasons, it matters only whether he made a difference beyond the numbers.


James argues it, but he didn't prove it. He believes it, but nothing he wrote suffices as evidence that Allen's teams were actually impacted in terms of winning & losing because of his presence. Several of them clearly suffered from his absence, which is part of the nuance of reasoning that James misplaced when he wrote those ill-advised words, which many have taken great pains to refute. He found a different way to slander Allen in the NBHA when his Win Shares score made it less convenient to ignore his on-field contributions, and the tone of the moralizing shifted to "he should have had a career similar to Willie Mays and Hank Aaron with that talent level."

It's clear that Bill would be better off just not talking about Dick Allen any more, even though he has softened his stance (mainly through a resigned relativism, however). Since we have no real hope of quantifying the effect of "carcinogenic clubhouse behavior" on a team's W-L record, we will find that gathering as many facts and pieces of evidence and bothering to examine (instead of dismiss out of hand) any and all historical context will tell us a lot more things that are useful to know--even from a "baseball perspective."

Bill is getting toward the right answer at the end of the quoted material--but his problem is that he didn't follow this advice back in 1994.
   82. Sunday silence: Play Guess How long season lasts Posted: April 17, 2016 at 05:17 AM (#5198381)

in a thread filled with sentence run ons and stuff that's almost gibberish here's a classic:

People forget this because Ozzie became very famous and had a much better career than Templeton, but when they were traded, it was considered, if anything, that the Cards got the worst of it, because Ozzie couldn't hit and Garry could field very well. Personally, I might put in a pitch for Phil Rizzuto...


I keep trying to recall was it San Diego or St Lou who got Rizzuto in the Templeton/Ozzie deal?
   83. Sunday silence: Play Guess How long season lasts Posted: April 17, 2016 at 05:26 AM (#5198382)
James once wrote a 3-4,000 word essay about Cobb for one of his Historical Abstracts and it was almost complete nonsense, simply factually inaccurate. This was at a time when James' was getting very sloppy and others (Eric Enders chief among them) have written about this period when James' work was very shoddy.


Like someone else pointed out, I dont think there is any one period where James work suddenly got shoddy. He seems to be a writer who just keeps on writing whatever he feels like going on about. if it a statistic that he's invented, and he goes on about why he invented it and how it works, and how he revised it. Great. If it some stoopid ass pyscho babble that he's prone to, then it sucks.

I dont recall exactly which Ty Cobb piece your talking about but my favorite is where he has a photo of Mathewson and Cobb posing side by side before a world series game. And Mathewson of course looks every bith the all american boy and Cobb has sort of this wild lookin his eyes. And James then goes on for several pages about how Cobb must be crazy, because just look at him. He's crazy! This is just so effed up on any number of levels, including judging people by their looks; misunderstanding mental illness, and just totally batsheet crazy talk. And oh yes, Cobb's suit has sleeves that are too large for him and he's carrying a coat under his arm. That's brilliant work there, Bill. Real deep analysis.

He just writes like that and I think he always did.He loves to write and talk about himself. If he sticks to statistics and objective reasoning he's fine. WHen he starts talking about Hal Chase banging teammate's wives, or Billy Beane, or why you could never develop knuckleballers in your organization, just forget it..
   84. Sunday silence: Play Guess How long season lasts Posted: April 17, 2016 at 05:30 AM (#5198383)
There's the Coniglario brothers story. I recently watched the 1971 All-Star game on youtube and was surprised to hear it mentioned in the broadcast.


OK what exactly IS the Coniglario brothers story? Cause you drop it in there, like everyone's heard this and well what is it?

Also what is "it" referring to in the second sentence? The Congilario brother's "story"? or the Yaz being difficult thing? or the Dick Williams fining Yaz?? Please can you rewrite this?
   85. Sunday silence: Play Guess How long season lasts Posted: April 17, 2016 at 05:40 AM (#5198384)
I'm not really sure, then, how anyone could say the 85 Cardinals were obnoxious players (until they were cheated out of the World Series, I mean, then they were righteously obnoxious) but the more successful team full of more addicts and tragedies, the 1982 team, wasn't. Unless the antipathy is based only on a player acquired in 84/85 off-season, John Tudor -- and I suspect it is. Why him? Surely there were other players who had snotty Upstate NY accents? It's not like he talked #### in interviews or was a hothead on the field. The only fit he threw..


Here's another good one. This one takes about 3 or 4 turns into places i dont even understand. Who/what were the addicts of 1982? And you agree they were obnoxious, you just take issue with it cause they were right about it? is that it? And how did John Tudor come up in all this? You just threw him in there and then his only fault is punching a fan...I guess??

again, people clearer writing. Maybe extrapolate a bit on what your thesis is. Or better yet, have a thesis, so we can tell where you're going before you go off on a tangent.
   86. Sunday silence: Play Guess How long season lasts Posted: April 17, 2016 at 05:55 AM (#5198385)

Want an owner? Try Charles O. Finley. Yes, he won by my God was he ever an ####### who everyone hated. Just ask Mike Andrews. (And while he won three pennants, Comiskey won four with the White Sox - 1901, 1906, 1917, and 1919.


I cant tell if this is actually for or against Charley O Finley, or making a case that Comiskey was worse, but that would be opposite of your stated intention. So good on you for using a thesis like sentence to tell us where you're going; but still not seeing the logic here. WOuld four pennants then absolve Finley? I dont get it.
   87. Sunday silence: Play Guess How long season lasts Posted: April 17, 2016 at 05:58 AM (#5198386)

For bad teammates and alcohol "The King" hasn't been mentioned yet.


Who's the "King"? King Kelly? Again, elaboration lead to better writing, folks.


I guess you could cheat and use Hornsby -- he did start out there. And there's Bad Bill, but he doesn't seem to have been unpopular with his teammates. He had a lot of problems with certain umpires and with management and some members of the press but I can't think of any player related issues.


Come on, I will bet you a HUNDRED THOUSAND DOLLARS not one effin person on BTF knows who the #### Bad Bill is.

What the ###### #####..
   88. Sunday silence: Play Guess How long season lasts Posted: April 17, 2016 at 06:13 AM (#5198387)
People forget that Allen was accident-prone, which is an aspect of his personality that is a perverse form of self-payback for all his internalizing and channeling of trauma. The headlight incident in '67 brought malingering into the mix, which permanently poisoned the first stint in Philly and paradoxically manifested in his 70s incarnation as a craving for special treatment. But the injuries kept coming, in part because he played hard (harder than anyone seems to remember)...


Really? Because he was playing harder? You just got done saying that he got injured cause of an accident prone, internalizing personality. Dont you read what you just wrote. I did. I must have read it like 10 times cause I couldnt figure out how in ####### hell someone can be reincarnated as a 1970s "craving."

A craving? Are you serious? Like Dick Allen became cheddar cheese? or pop rocks or something? Right? That kind of craving?
   89. Sunday silence: Play Guess How long season lasts Posted: April 17, 2016 at 06:26 AM (#5198389)

To what extent he should be forgiven for being an ####### because he was the victim of racism, I am not qualified to pass judgment on that, because the Sixties were a complex and extraordinary time, and I wasn't there, and I can't hope to understand the issues involved. Whether he gets a Hall of Fame plaque or not, I don't feel strongly one way or another about that. Certainly he would not be the first ####### in the Hall of Fame, though he's somewhat less clearly qualified than Rogers Hornsby


I sort of get what you're saying that statistically maybe HOrnsby is a better HoF'er; but the whole "I dont know I wasnt there" thing is confusing, cause you werent there for Hornsby either. So how do you know which of these guys is a bigger ahole if you werent there for either?
   90. vortex of dissipation Posted: April 17, 2016 at 06:51 AM (#5198390)
Come on, I will bet you a HUNDRED THOUSAND DOLLARS not one effin person on BTF knows who the #### Bad Bill is.


This guy.
   91. 185/456(GGC) Posted: April 17, 2016 at 08:35 AM (#5198392)
This is a good thread, but methinks Sunday Silence is confusing the discussion here between knowledgeable baseball fans and an article for the general public. The King is Jim Leyritz. I didn't know Skates ottomh, but it was easy enough to lookup and figure out that it was Lonnie Smith.

Yaz also didn't hustle, per Jim Bouton. But he was awesome in 1967 and my dad worshipped him.When he'd come up to the plate, my dad would say "Polish power!" He's not coming over for dinner. Who cared if he was an ass.
   92. 185/456(GGC) Posted: April 17, 2016 at 08:46 AM (#5198393)
Heh, for a Sunday, Sunday Silence isn't too silent.
   93. Dennis Eclairskey, closer Posted: April 17, 2016 at 09:21 AM (#5198395)
Add me to the list of people who knew Bad Bill is Bill Dahlen. I think a fair amount of Primates know that since he is a VC HOF candidate. However, I did not know The King was Leyritz. Did he have alcohol issues during his career or was it just post-career ?

Tudor, from what I've read seemed like a red-ass but more the "mess with the bull you get the horns" type & aloof rather than someone who actually caused problems & discontent. He also was distrustful of the press & thus was a difficult interview

How bout Boggs? Between his Delta Force operation & the Margo Adams scandal,I'm sure he wasnt too popular a teammate
   94. SoSHially Unacceptable Posted: April 17, 2016 at 09:32 AM (#5198398)
How bout Boggs? Between his Delta Force operation & the Margo Adams scandal,I'm sure he wasnt too popular a teammate


Clemens wasn't a fan. During one of the lost years of the Hobson Era, Roger was in the running for the ERA title. Boggs pleaded with the official scorer to change an error assigned to him to a hit, which turned two unearned runs into earned ones. Clemens wasn't pleased.
   95. ERROR---Jolly Old St. Nick Posted: April 17, 2016 at 09:48 AM (#5198401)
The 1984 Padres were a pretty amazing bunch, with four actual members of the John Birch Society: Show, Thurmond, Terry Kennedy, and Dave Dravecky.

Are you sure about Kennedy? Every mention of the Padre Birchers was just the three pitchers.


I'm almost sure I remembered Kennedy's name being mentioned in the earliest articles about the Padres and the Birchers, but since I can't find any reference to it I'll retract his name from the mix.

----------------------------------------------------------------------

I'd counter with most of the core of the 1985 Cardinals: Whitey, Andujar, Coleman, Clark, Van Slyke, and TOO-dah. The Mets at least had some color to them, whereas the Cardinals were just outright creepy and sullen.

BLAH BLAH BLAH I CAN'T HEAR YOU, ANDY.

Whitey got rid of the drug addicted malcontents - or at least the ones who hadn't cleaned up. Porter by 85 was a clean-living Jesus freak, and a shell of the player he had been. Skates was shipped to the Royals early in the year. Hernandez was gone in 83. Andujar IIRC did have to testify at the Pittsburgh drug trials but I think regarding behavior he engaged in while _with Houston_. I dunno why anyone not a Dodgers fan would hate Jack Clark. Coleman wasn't an ####### til he went to New York, of course. Van Slyke didn't become outspoken until he was in Pittsburgh and didn't become really outspoken until he'd retired as a player. I'm not really sure, then, how anyone could say the 85 Cardinals were obnoxious players (until they were cheated out of the World Series, I mean, then they were righteously obnoxious) but the more successful team full of more addicts and tragedies, the 1982 team, wasn't. Unless the antipathy is based only on a player acquired in 84/85 off-season, John Tudor -- and I suspect it is. Why him? Surely there were other players who had snotty Upstate NY accents? It's not like he talked #### in interviews or was a hothead on the field. The only fit he threw -- when he punched the electric fan after being taken out of WAS game 7 -- wasn't IIRC shown on TV and was only publicized because he was injured because of it.


I take it you're a Cardinals fan. In the spirit of ecumenism, I'll say I always admired Stan Musial, Bob Gibson, and Lou Brock, even though those last two tortured my beloved Yankees.

(NB: John Tudor was cheated out of a lot of the 87 season because the catcher from the Patrick Bateman Cocaine Sociopath team launched himself into the Cardinals dugout and broke Tudor's leg.)

Then good for the catcher from the Patrick Bateman Cocaine Sociopath team.

And the only reason TOO-dah got that broken leg was because he didn't have enough sense to get out of the way while the play was unfolding. He was probably still brooding about his historic choke performance in Game 7.
   96. cardsfanboy Posted: April 17, 2016 at 09:48 AM (#5198402)
I was thinking a good clubhouse disrupter could be someone who slept with a teammates wife, is Palmiero the best named player to have allegedly done this?
   97. ERROR---Jolly Old St. Nick Posted: April 17, 2016 at 09:51 AM (#5198403)
During one of the lost years of the Hobson Era, Roger was in the running for the ERA title. Boggs pleaded with the official scorer to change an error assigned to him to a hit, which turned two unearned runs into earned ones. Clemens wasn't pleased.

Ah, the glory years of 25 players, 25 cabs.
   98. Dennis Eclairskey, closer Posted: April 17, 2016 at 09:57 AM (#5198404)
Palmiero was also viewed as a selfish player, something along the lines of the team wins but he sulks in the corner because he went 0 for 4
   99. Don Malcolm Posted: April 17, 2016 at 10:23 AM (#5198417)
And the only reason TOO-dah got that broken leg was because he didn't have enough sense to get out of the way while the play was unfolding. He was probably still brooding about his historic choke performance in Game 7.

Now, now. Tudor's overall post-season record isn't all that shabby. And he, like most of his teammates and many Cards fans, probably dismisses that game as one that should never have been played at all.

But have you all forgotten the man for whom Tudor was traded to the Dodgers in '88? The one and only Pedro Guerrero? Or does he get a pass because his IQ purportedly needs to be measured with an electron microscope??
   100. SoSHially Unacceptable Posted: April 17, 2016 at 10:29 AM (#5198422)
But have you all forgotten the man for whom Tudor was traded to the Dodgers in '88? The one and only Pedro Guerrero? Or does he get a pass because his IQ purportedly needs to be measured with an electron microscope??


I've never heard of anyone having a problem with Pedro. He allegedly delivered one of the great ballplayer lines (though I've always wondered if that was a bit of Lasorda Fic).
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