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Thursday, April 14, 2016

Hey Bill: Dick Allen, Ty Cobb, reputations

Allen was very charming, but he was a manipulator.  He had a genius for dividing people, and for picking petty quarrels in which the other person was always the bad guy.  Exactly one-half of his teammates loved him.  He was an alcoholic, and alcoholics are the greatest manipulators in the world; that’s why they make great managers.  Starting nine. . .well, Allen, Hornsby, Albert Belle, Joe Medwick.  Carl Mays.  Probably shouldn’t spend too much time with it; we all have our demons.  I don’t know that we’re better people than any of them were

Dennis Eclairskey, closer Posted: April 14, 2016 at 09:11 AM | 212 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
  Tags: bill james, dick allen, ty cobb

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   201. Rally Posted: April 21, 2016 at 05:41 PM (#5201920)
"I thought Wathan was a back up catch, if memory serves. So I guess McRae must have been limping around or something. I guess they PR with Wathan to keep out of the DP (he's on 1b w/ one out). Hell if you want to break up the DP McRae should be the runner, right?"

Wathan was a 35 year old catcher. But only 3 years removed from a season where he stole 36 bases, still a record for a catcher I think.
   202. Don Malcolm Posted: April 21, 2016 at 06:20 PM (#5201954)
Yes, that's the modern record...and it's the all-time record for a player who played at least 80% of his games at catcher. (King Kelly had 56 SBs in 1888, but played only about two-thirds of his games at C; Buck Ewing had 53 that same year, playing in just over 75% of his games behind the plate.)

If Herzog had brought in Horton, I strongly suspect Howser would have batted Jones, not Pryor. He'd already used Jones three times (2-for-3), and he never used Pryor as a PH in the post-season. Plus there's the fact (not that Dick necessarily had this at his fingertips at the time...) that Greg was a particularly poor pinch-hitter (3-for-24 lifetime).
   203. DanG Posted: April 21, 2016 at 09:44 PM (#5202051)
Most SB, 75% G at catcher, since 1898

Rk               Player SB CS OPS+  PA   G Year Age  Tm
1           John Wathan 36  9   86 502 121 1982  32 KCR
2            Ray Schalk 30 13   84 474 129 1916  23 CHW
3         Jason Kendall 26  5  131 627 149 1998  24 PIT
4          Johnny Kling 25     113 477 115 1902  26 CHC
5          John Stearns 25 13  121 563 143 1978  26 NYM
6          Craig Biggio 25 11   93 621 150 1990  24 HOU
7        Ivan Rodriguez 25 12  125 630 144 1999  27 TEX
8            Ray Schalk 24 11  100 460 136 1914  21 CHW
9          Johnny Kling 23     117 524 132 1903  27 CHC
10        Jason Kendall 22  3  137 334  78 1999  25 PIT
11        Jason Kendall 22 12  124 678 152 2000  26 PIT 
   204. Sunday silence: Play Guess How long season lasts Posted: April 22, 2016 at 01:09 AM (#5202196)
but even if Wathan is the worlds fastest catcher the comparison is to McRae. is McRae hurt? I think he only played 3 games. And is he not even able to break up the double play?
   205. bjhanke Posted: April 23, 2016 at 11:16 AM (#5203346)
Thanks, Sunday. That explains, among other things, why I had MacRae in my head as a pinch runner. He wasn't, but they did pinch run for him. MacRae, I believe, had hurt his leg in the minor leagues, and by 1985, may have been slow. You can have Wathan come in and play 1B, hitting in MacRae's spot, without having him pinch run. - Brock
   206. bjhanke Posted: April 23, 2016 at 11:25 AM (#5203351)
Thanks for the info, Don. Kelly was legitimately fast, and played everywhere. Ewing was legitimately fast - the fastest catcher in the game at his time. However, the game in their time did not require squatting. It did require a lot of running after WP and PB. Probably the only remembered catchers of the 20th century who were as fast as Kelly and Ewing were Bresnahan, Cochrane and Biggio, maybe Murphy, if you count him as a catcher. - Brock
   207. Howie Menckel Posted: April 23, 2016 at 12:00 PM (#5203371)
has anyone done a Win Probability change comparison of the result of this call compared to the result of other famous umpiring errors?

for those who don't know, this was a Game 6 with the Cardinals leading, 3-2, in the series and ahead by a run in the game. The leadoff batter, Jorge Orta, is out at first but incorrectly called safe.

so now the Cardinals are ahead, 3-2 in the series and ahead by a run in the game - but now a runner is on first base! Holy smokes, why didn't they just stop the series right there!

the only thing memorable about this modest event is the panties-in-a-bunch reaction by Herzog and his team, and the delusion of many in Cardinals Nation to this day that this call ranks among the top 10,000 most relevant bad calls in baseball history.
   208. bjhanke Posted: April 24, 2016 at 09:07 PM (#5204273)
Howie - One of he factors is that while the Series was 3-2 at the time, the Game score was 1-0, Cardinals. If the Cards had even had a 2-0 lead, Mike Jorgensen is playing first base. One of the bigger WPA issues is that, if Orta is called out, Whitey may then decide to put in Jorgensen, who catches Balboni's foul pop (99+%). That's a complicated WPA. - Brock
   209. 185/456(GGC) Posted: May 13, 2016 at 09:19 AM (#5220240)
This thread has inspried me to check out Yaz's memoir from the library and examine him more closely.
   210. Chicago Joe Posted: May 13, 2016 at 09:28 AM (#5220252)
I was hoping this became the OT:A55holes thread.
   211. 185/456(GGC) Posted: May 13, 2016 at 09:39 AM (#5220264)
This thread has inspired me to check out Yaz's memoir and Red Sox Century from the library and examine him more closely.
   212. What did Billy Ripken have against ElRoy Face? Posted: May 13, 2016 at 10:41 AM (#5220344)
I was hoping this became the OT:A55holes thread.

Already got that one. Check out OTP.

I kid, I kid.
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