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Sunday, September 17, 2023

How the knee-down revolution changed catching - without downgrading defense

Swanson initially thought that having a knee down might affect how umpires perceived pitches: Since umpires typically position themselves between the batter and the catcher’s inside shoulder, Swanson experimented with dropping the right knee for a left-handed batter and the left knee for a right-handed batter.

“I thought there was a chance umpires were using the catcher’s body, specifically their knees, to gauge the height of pitches,” he said. “I thought if we remove the knee from their visual field, maybe they’ll lose perception. … I was never able to validate the hypothesis.”

However, he found there were other benefits to catchers being closer to the ground: The best framers got most of their borderline strike calls in the lower portions of the zone. Moving the glove up to catch a ball at the bottom of the zone made it seem like the glove finished in the zone.

In 2017, among pitches taken by hitters in borderline areas - the “shadow zone,” as Baseball Savant defines it - 48.4% were called strikes with no runners on base, but the strike rate dropped to 45.1% with runners on, when catchers used higher, wider stances.

That data made a compelling enough argument to adopt a lower stance on all pitches, regardless of whether there were baserunners.

RoyalsRetro (AG#1F) Posted: September 17, 2023 at 02:02 PM | 15 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
  Tags: catching, framing pitches

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   1. tell me when i'm telling 57i66135 Posted: September 17, 2023 at 09:08 PM (#6141626)
However, he found there were other benefits to catchers being closer to the ground: The best framers got most of their borderline strike calls in the lower portions of the zone. Moving the glove up to catch a ball at the bottom of the zone made it seem like the glove finished in the zone.
i've said it before and i'll say it again:

MLB needs to raise the strike zone. if you call the fastball at the calf a ball, noone's going to swing at the slider in the dirt.
   2. Walt Davis Posted: September 18, 2023 at 12:52 AM (#6141631)
Benito Santiago or Tony Pena, I forge which, maybe both, used to do something similar although that was more of a sit than what they're doing these days.

And of course Tony Esposito. :-)
   3. RoyalsRetro (AG#1F) Posted: September 18, 2023 at 10:24 AM (#6141637)

Benito Santiago or Tony Pena, I forge which, maybe both, used to do something similar,


Pena, he's mentioned in the article.
   4. Barry`s_Lazy_Boy Posted: September 18, 2023 at 10:38 AM (#6141640)
Pretty neat that there are still ways to completely change how baseball has been done for 150 years.

The article has a sweet pic of Tony Pena, the first guy I thought of when reading the headline.

   5. Harmon "Thread Killer" Microbrew Posted: September 18, 2023 at 10:44 AM (#6141641)
Good article
   6. RoyalsRetro (AG#1F) Posted: September 18, 2023 at 11:09 AM (#6141649)

The article has a sweet pic of Tony Pena, the first guy I thought of when reading the headline.


I can't be the only one that tried this as a kid only to have his coach yell at him.
   7. Harmon "Thread Killer" Microbrew Posted: September 18, 2023 at 11:53 AM (#6141653)
   8. . . . . . . Posted: September 18, 2023 at 02:19 PM (#6141659)
I'm really skeptical one-knee-down works at lower levels, where there's much more wildness and catchers have slower reflexes. Even before this change, a lot of MLB catchers had shitty catching mechanics because they're relying on one-in-a-million reflexes or a cannon throwing arm; the only "mechanical" skill that's really important at the MLB level is pop time.
   9. AuntBea odeurs de parfum de distance sociale Posted: September 18, 2023 at 03:01 PM (#6141663)
I recall a game many years ago where Pena was doing his thing and the old school announcer complained about it on at least a couple occasions, implying it was being done for Peña’s own benefit at the expense of the team, where he would not be able to handle pitches that missed the target or would cost his team strikes for being in such a weird position. (The implication was selfishness such as laziness or to prevent wear on knees.) I thought Pena must be doing it for a reason but this was before I knew much about pitch framing and how many games catchers actually played in a season.
   10. SoSH U at work Posted: September 18, 2023 at 06:54 PM (#6141680)
I believe Pena went to a standard squat when there was a man on first.
   11. Barry`s_Lazy_Boy Posted: September 18, 2023 at 10:31 PM (#6141710)
The pic of Pena in #7 is just awesome, thanks Harmon.

I was looking for some video of him playing defense, and found this 1997 video of Tony Pena and pitcher John Hudek faking an IBB and Hudek firing a fastball past the hitter for a called third.
   12. Barry`s_Lazy_Boy Posted: September 18, 2023 at 10:44 PM (#6141713)
Random notes from watching video from an entire game of Pirates at Cubs 6/27/1984.

At the 18:40 mark, Belliard hurts his ankle against leadoff hitter Bobby Dernier, and Pirates pitching coach Grant Jackson carries him off the field like a kid.

Pena was on a knee for leadoff hitter Dernier, but squatted with Ryno up. Ryno hits a 2 run HR. Pena stays in squat the rest of the first even with bases empty.

The San Diego chicken appears at the 35 minute mark.

In my recollection, Pena did the one leg occasionally. I don't know if it was for low ball pitches or just to stretch. I didn't find him kneeling any other time in the first three innings, but I was skipping a bunch.

Kind of crazy to watch a Chicago game from 39 years ago and Steve Stone was doing color. Some things never change.

The chicken gets a lot of screen time. Like, a lot.

I forgot Pena's extremely closed stance. Looks like Jack Clark but with his head down.

   13. billyshears Posted: September 19, 2023 at 03:56 PM (#6141792)
I can't be the only one that tried this as a kid only to have his coach yell at him.


Yes. And throwing behind the runner at first to try to pick him off because I saw Gary Carter do it. They didn't let me catch much.
   14. Der-K's enjoying the new boygenius album. Posted: September 19, 2023 at 04:00 PM (#6141794)
I did one or two knee setups almost exclusively. My flexibility was trash and I threw from a crouch as it was (I was also lefty) so it helped immensely.
   15. sunday silence (again) Posted: September 19, 2023 at 09:42 PM (#6141823)
I brought this up earlier without any clear answer: when did catchers go to a crouch instead of the pre WW II standing up more or less? From pics it seems like it happened at some pt during WW II. I was looking at pics between 1942-44 of Walker Cooper and I think one of the NYY catchers. Any ideas on that?

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