User Comments, Suggestions, or Complaints | Privacy Policy | Terms of Service | Advertising
Page rendered in 0.4125 seconds
45 querie(s) executed
| ||||||||
You are here > Home > Baseball Newsstand > Discussion
| ||||||||
Baseball Primer Newsblog — The Best News Links from the Baseball Newsstand Wednesday, December 02, 2009Huffington Post: Bradbury: Is Your Favorite Free Agent Over the Hill?
Thanks to Acres. |
Login to submit news.
You must be logged in to view your Bookmarks. Hot TopicsNewsblog: OT Soccer Thread - Hi Ho Hi Ho it’s Back to Club Football We Go
(366 - 10:38am, Feb 04) Last: Jose is an Absurd Sultan Newsblog: 2023 NBA Regular Season Thread (343 - 10:22am, Feb 04) Last: Mellow Mouse, Benevolent Space Tyrant Hall of Merit: Reranking Left Fielders: Results (12 - 12:21am, Feb 04) Last: Chris Cobb Newsblog: OT - 2022 NFL thread Part II (330 - 11:03pm, Feb 03) Last: Joyful Calculus Instructor Sox Therapy: The Future Starts Now (Hopefully) (15 - 9:35pm, Feb 03) Last: The Yankee Clapper Newsblog: Orioles to decline 5-year Camden Yards lease extension, seek to secure long-term agreement (10 - 7:54pm, Feb 03) Last: the Hugh Jorgan returns Newsblog: These MLB legends were trailblazers in Japan (4 - 7:32pm, Feb 03) Last: the Hugh Jorgan returns Newsblog: Sinclair’s Sports Channels Prepare Bankruptcy, Putting Team Payments at Risk (26 - 7:01pm, Feb 03) Last: Greg Franklin Hall of Merit: Ranking Right Fielders in the Hall of Merit - Discussion thread (43 - 6:03pm, Feb 03) Last: Jaack Newsblog: John Adams, Who Banged His Drum in the Cleveland Bleachers, Has Died (16 - 2:25pm, Feb 03) Last: Barry`s_Lazy_Boy Hall of Merit: Ranking Left Fielders in the Hall of Merit - Discussion thread (95 - 1:15pm, Feb 03) Last: Rob_Wood Newsblog: Ex-girlfriend alleges Mets outfielder assaulted her in Syracuse; warrant, lawsuit target player (9 - 12:44pm, Feb 03) Last: Never Give an Inge (Dave) Newsblog: How to Watch the Caribbean Series (4 - 9:15am, Feb 03) Last: Jose is an Absurd Sultan Newsblog: MLB Network Exits YouTube TV Ahead of Spring Training After Contract Dispute (51 - 8:34am, Feb 03) Last: KronicFatigue Newsblog: MLB expansion: Nashville group led by Dave Stewart makes a pitch for Music City [$] (25 - 10:40pm, Feb 02) Last: John Northey |
|||||||
About Baseball Think Factory | Write for Us | Copyright © 1996-2021 Baseball Think Factory
User Comments, Suggestions, or Complaints | Privacy Policy | Terms of Service | Advertising
|
| Page rendered in 0.4125 seconds |
Reader Comments and Retorts
Go to end of page
Statements posted here are those of our readers and do not represent the BaseballThinkFactory. Names are provided by the poster and are not verified. We ask that posters follow our submission policy. Please report any inappropriate comments.
1. JMPH Posted: December 02, 2009 at 05:32 PM (#3401230)I think if you follow baseball at all, you're probably familiar with 27ish as a peak age.
Considering that my favourite free agent is Lloyd Moseby, all signs point to "Yes".
Dammit. I was going to make this joke except with Dwayne Murphy.
If you feel strongly about wanting that joke, I will remove my comment and you can post yours.
This will be our secret.
Let me know.
Your friend,
Harmon
This is pretty bad. I'm fairly sure I know how he looked at this, and that is not an honest interpretation of the results. I believe he looked at players who were active at age 35 and at 27 or 29 or whatever his peak is. And he's got it backwards. Knowing that a player has an .850 OPS at age 35, he probably was a .900 player at age 27.
But if you're looking at age 27 here's what I find:
All players with OPS between .875 and .925, from 1993 to 2001, who were 27. (start of modern offensive era on one end, and the last year that a 27 year old could have and also have an age 35 season on record. B-Ref PI is my source. 18 players qualify, average OPS is .900
One player maintained a near .900 OPS, Jeff Bagwell. Another, Sammy Sosa, was at .849.
Six were between .770 and .804 (Ordonez, Karros, T Martinez, M Williams, M Sweeney, V Castilla).
Four were between .695 and .741 (Ventura, Catalonotto, John Valentin, I Rodriguez). There's Tim Salmon (628), Mike Lieberthal (.540, 82 PA). Juan Gonzalez almost made it through a single plate appearance before being done for good (but not quite, hurt running to first). Dean Palmer, Todd Hundley, and Trot Nixon were out of baseball.
The weighted average on PA of this group is .779, simple average of the ones who were still playing was .749, and the median (Robin Ventura) was .741
So given that a player has a .900 OPS at age 27, it is more likely that he's out of baseball entirely at 35 than still posting an .850 OPS or greater. And the median expectation of the guy is Robin Ventura 2003: 242/340/401, 392 AB, 14 HR, 55 RBI.
Or at least next to last.
Damn it.
Aha! But peak is at 29!
Anyway, I did it for 1993-2003, all players age 29, 400+ PAs, OPS between .875 and .925, there were 18
Simple average age 29: .902
weighted average age 29: .902
4 were out of base ball at age 35
The simple average of the remaining 14*: .788
The weighted average of the remaining 14: .792
The median of the age 35 survivors was between Hal Morris and Cliff Floyd.
I'm at a loss as to how he could have possibly arrived at that. (I suppose if your "peak" year was before 1993, and your age 35 season was after 1993...)
*I fudged a bit, Klesko didn't play at age 35, but he played at age 34 % 36, so I averaged those two ages together.
Didn't save it, or look at WAR, but all the players who met the criteria are listed in my post if you want to check. My assumption is that you are 100% correct, they are declining in defensive value as well as offensive.
I think it is this simple: Find all players who have an .850 OPS at age 35, look back and you'll find they averaged about .900 at their peak. My guess is if i try that I'll be able to reproduce his results. His mistake is thinking that tells you anything about how we should expect an average 27 year old to do at age 35. He's got it all backwards.
Almost. His paper looks at players who amassed 5000+ PAs from age 24 to age 35, and fits a quadratic equation to the players' seasons controlling for their career mean OPS, year/league, and other factors (and using only seasons with 300+ PAs). He finds a very flat aging curve overall, but some specific skills have distinct curves.
But essentially your intuition is right: he is really only looking at players who played well into their mid-30s, which guarantees a flat aging curve. And even the guys who do fall off a cliff in their early 30s and still make the 5000 PA cutoff don't have much impact on the curve, because most of their deline years are hidden from sight since they don't play at all or have <300 PAs.
Mike Lieberthal was never a near .900 OPS true talent player. Even after his fluke age 27 year I doubt any projection system would have him anywhere near that high.
1975-92, just 12 batters averaged between .825-.875 at age 35:
Rk Player OPS PA Year Age Tm Lg
1 Carlton Fisk .874 545 1983 35 CHW AL
2 Cliff Johnson .862 484 1983 35 TOR AL
3 Pete Rose .854 759 1976 35 CIN NL
4 Paul Molitor .851 700 1992 35 MIL AL
5 Tom Paciorek .851 422 1982 35 CHW AL
6 Jose Cruz .848 664 1983 35 HOU NL
7 Lou Whitaker .847 544 1992 35 DET AL
8 Brian Downing .841 631 1986 35 CAL AL
9 Jack Clark .840 585 1991 35 BOS AL
10 Gary Matthews .839 432 1986 35 CHC NL
11 Don Baylor .830 558 1984 35 NYY AL
12 Dave Kingman .826 613 1984 35 OAK AL
Why yes, if you look at their age 27-29 peak year, it only averages around .875!!!!
In fact a surprising number of these guys didn't "peak" at age 27-29 at all, many were injured, it is a terribly unrepresentative list actually- plus by looking at guys who hit .850 at age 35, you are almost begging to find atypical spikes in player careers, or guys who peaked late.
Rk Player OPS PA To From Age G
1 Carl Everett .924 1615 1998 2000 27-29 393
2 John Olerud .921 1764 1996 1998 27-29 439
3 Chris Hoiles .921 908 1993 1994 28-29 225
4 Tim Salmon .912 1942 1996 1998 27-29 449
5 Shawn Green .905 1415 2000 2001 27-28 323
6 Vinny Castilla .902 1912 1995 1997 27-29 458
7 Rusty Greer .900 1998 1996 1998 27-29 451
8 Reggie Sanders .899 1259 1995 1997 27-29 300
9 Sammy Sosa .898 1957 1996 1998 27-29 445
10 Tino Martinez .898 1949 1995 1997 27-29 454
11 Reggie Jefferson .895 1161 1996 1998 27-29 320
12 David Justice .886 1585 1993 1995 27-29 381
13 Jay Buhner .886 1111 1993 1994 28-29 259
14 Ryan Klesko .884 1546 1998 2000 27-29 407
15 Roberto Alomar .879 1745 1995 1997 27-29 395
16 Jeffrey Hammonds .878 1110 1998 2000 27-29 334
17 John Valentin .878 1582 1994 1996 27-29 350
18 Todd Hundley .877 1274 1996 1998 27-29 338
19 Jeromy Burnitz .876 1507 1996 1998 27-29 408
Any guesses as to how those guys did in their age 35 seasons?
A whole lot worse than .850
I extended the OPS range from 875 to 950 OPS to get to an average of 900 OPS.
16 players, average OPS of .898.
Their average OPS from ages 33 to 35 was 0.822, for an average of .076 drop.
If you exclude the two catchers (who we all know decline faster), it’s a 0.63 drop.
26-29 33-35 Diff Player
0.877 0.995 0.118 Jim Edmonds
0.930 1.031 0.101 Larry Walker
0.884 0.922 0.038 Sammy Sosa
0.886 0.882 -0.004 David Justice
0.876 0.856 -0.020 Reggie Sanders
0.878 0.798 -0.080 Jeromy Burnitz
0.891 0.802 -0.089 John Olerud
0.887 0.798 -0.089 Tino Martinez
0.936 0.833 -0.103 Bernie Williams
0.940 0.824 -0.116 Tim Salmon
0.877 0.733 -0.144 Rusty Greer
0.927 0.779 -0.148 Shawn Green
0.875 0.724 -0.151 Todd Hundley
0.878 0.714 -0.164 Carl Everett
0.899 0.721 -0.178 Vinny Castilla
0.919 0.740 -0.179 Ivan Rodriguez
But the median is still .89, plus Y is right, we should be using EQA or OPS+ or something, a .900 in Coors isn't the same as a.900 in Seattle
My WAG is that a rigorous study would put the OPS drop somewhere between Bradbury's 50 and AROM's 150.
Player OPS+
Tony Clark 125
Tino Martinez 125
Jay Buhner 125
Roberto Alomar 124
Robin Ventura 124
Barry Larkin 124
Trot Nixon 123
Rondell White 123
Carl Everett 123
Ryan Klesko 123
Jim Edmonds 123
Derek Jeter 122
Rusty Greer 122
Chuck Knoblauch 122
Dave Magadan 122
Jose Vidro 121
Hal Morris 121
Lenny Dykstra 121
Wally Joyner 121
Bobby Higginson 120
Javy Lopez 120
Dave Nilsson 120
Moises Alou 120
7 were out of baseball by age 35
the 16 remaining averaged 102 (simple average) in their age 35 seasons
4 exceeded their age 26-29 average in their age 35 season:
Jim Edmonds (he really did peak in his early to mid 30s)
Wally Joyner (he had a BABIP driven spike)
Derek Jeter (his age 34-35 average would be below)
Jay Buhner (by 1, and just a 126 in only 400 PAs, sandwiched by a 105 and a 100)
what do you do with the guys who aren't playing at all at the later age?
BTW in the Article there's a link to JC's study- anyone wanna pay $30 for it?
Jeff Moorad thinks the world of Eric, and that's usually good enough for me.
You could supply two numbers: odds that they'd still be in baseball, and a projection if they are. I suppose that you could just fill their empty seasons with whatever replacement level was that season and continue running averages, but I don't think that would be a particularly accurate representation of reality (since the ones still playing would beat the projection by a significant margin, and the ones out of baseball would fall hugely short).
E(WAR at age 35) = p(out of bb by 35)*0 + (1-p)*E(WAR | play at 35)
Since the first term disappears, that's the same as the total age-35 WAR of the surviving players divided by the full sample size. I suppose technically you could do that for OPS but interpreting the answer would be a challenge.
It gets a bit more complicated to, say, look over the life of a 6-year contract to a guy entering his age 30 season (esp since a guy could miss a season at age 30 then return at 31), but the same basic technique would work. Of course to apply that to an individual player is making the assumption that everyone in the group is the same in terms of risk of not playing at 35 and likely age-35 performance. But close enough for a start.
Perhaps by sending it through the academic systems, as Bradbury does...
Yes. Just like your life expectancy gets higher the older you get.
The futures fund industry is notorious for using/abusing this. A firm will start 5 funds with different strategies. After 5 years one will have a good track record, and they'll tout that one to investors, while letting the other 4 die.
We know he's only looking at players with long careers: 5000 PA and 10 seasons. He's responded to critiques of the selected sampling with some bizarre reasoning. He makes a distinction between aging and injuries: More players will peak at 27 (the mode method, look at what age most commonly has a player's best year) because some get hurt and don't have an opportunity to play at later ages.
On not using short career players he responds to the case of Marcus Giles by claiming that whatever caused his decline is a mystery (which is certainly true) but it's not aging.
Well, if that's the way you want to play it, fine. If I know that a certain 27 to 29 year old will still be playing at 35, I know he won't get hurt, and I know he won't turn out like Marcus Giles, then we should expect only a small dropoff in his hitting stats.
But my point is, you don't know any of that. And it's all relevant, risk that must be accounted for, by a team considering signing a 29 year old free agent.
But who the eff cares if it's not "aging".
If you are going to sign a 29 year old to a 6 contract, you'd still should know how many 29 year olds mysteriously evaporate due to "non aging" reasons.
Maybe, just maybe, a 29 year old OPSing .900, who keeps in shape, doesn't get sick/ run over by a car, has an even money shot of OPSing .850 when he's 35.
But when you sign that 29 year old YOU DO NOT KNOW he is:
1: not going to get hurt
2: not going to contract aids/swine flu/ebola etc;
3: not going to take up recreational eating;
4: not going to have a premature midlife crisis;
5: not going to get three fingers crushed in a limo door;
6: etcetera
Crap happens, personally I see crap happening as part of aging/experience
You must be Registered and Logged In to post comments.
<< Back to main