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Sunday, June 20, 2021

I Am Breaking My Silence About the Baseball Player Who Raped Me

I spent the 2002 M.L.B. season working on a significant story about foreign-born players and how they navigate life in the United States. It was nearly two decades ago, but I remember how much work went into it, the prominent play it received, and how proud of it I was. Looking back, I now wonder how I managed to finish it.

I sat down in a hotel room with my interview subject. We spoke for a few minutes as I asked some questions and he answered. Then he moved suddenly to kiss me. I said, no, no, I don’t want that, but he pushed me over to the bed. I tried to shove him. I said no, stop, no, stop, over and over. He pushed further, getting on top of me, pulling off my skirt, and having sex with me against my will.

While it was happening, I couldn’t process that it was happening to me. I said no, again and again. Too terrified to move, I froze. Afterward, I remember getting in my car, shaking, to drive home, and looking at my blue-and-white skirt from Express, and thinking why did I have to be wearing a skirt? Because it was Texas in summer.

I remember, once I got back to my apartment, drinking a bottle of red wine in a desperate attempt to numb my sadness and rage. Instead, I threw up all over the carpet.

RoyalsRetro (AG#1F) Posted: June 20, 2021 at 05:55 PM | 46 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
  Tags: sexual harassment

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   1. Lowry Seasoning Salt Posted: June 21, 2021 at 12:43 AM (#6025498)
What she posted on Twitter following this being published is also worth reading.
   2. Never Give an Inge (Dave) Posted: June 21, 2021 at 07:15 AM (#6025503)
What can one say after reading a story like this? It’s horrible and I hope the world is a place where these things happen slightly less often than they did 20 years ago. But it sounds like we still have a long way to go. After the Jared Porter story I asked a friend of mine who used to be a baseball beat writer (and is still part of that world) what he thought. He said that sort of thing is more common in baseball than you think, even if you think it’s very common. He wasn’t talking about rape, but the culture of sexual harassment is still clearly there.
   3. Obo Posted: June 22, 2021 at 10:48 PM (#6025851)
Came here to post something pretty similar to what Dave said. This story is terrible and while I'm confident that the working environment for women in the sports industry is much better these days, I honestly have no idea whether it's a lot better or just a little. Also, even if the situation has significantly improved, there is no guarantee that it will continue to do so.
   4. Hombre Brotani Posted: June 23, 2021 at 05:31 PM (#6025997)
I wish this had come out when it happened, but I think everyone understands why she stayed quiet -- which might be the biggest indictment of the past. The good old days were always a myth.
   5. TomH Posted: June 23, 2021 at 08:54 PM (#6026024)
...yes, cue up the intro song for "All in the Family"
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fye4uY3pCvo
   6. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: June 24, 2021 at 09:58 AM (#6026096)
Who did it?
   7. Never Give an Inge (Dave) Posted: June 24, 2021 at 12:34 PM (#6026114)

She doesn't say who.
   8. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: June 24, 2021 at 01:49 PM (#6026124)
She doesn't say who.

That kinda sucks for all the innocent guys she interviewed.
   9. GregD Posted: June 24, 2021 at 02:03 PM (#6026134)
If she named the player, would you critique her for naming someone without a police investigation?
   10. Never Give an Inge (Dave) Posted: June 24, 2021 at 02:06 PM (#6026138)

???

RTFA. All she says is that it was a (presumably foreign-born) guy who played for a team other than the Rangers in 2002. There are probably a couple hundred guys who fit that description. There won’t be any blowback on any ex-players based on that. And it’s kind of ridiculous that that’s your main concern.
   11. JJ1986 Posted: June 24, 2021 at 02:26 PM (#6026144)
That kinda sucks for all the innocent guys she interviewed.
The real victims.
   12. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: June 24, 2021 at 02:36 PM (#6026146)
If she named the player, would you critique her for naming someone without a police investigation?

No. I think horrible behavior should be called out.

RTFA. All she says is that it was a (presumably foreign-born) guy who played for a team other than the Rangers in 2002. There are probably a couple hundred guys who fit that description. There won’t be any blowback on any ex-players based on that. And it’s kind of ridiculous that that’s your main concern.

She obviously didn't interview a couple of hundred guys. Times doesn't let me read the article. Does she name any of her interview subjects in the original article?

My concern is that the guilty party is identified and punished to the extent that's still possible. If he's a rapist, his family, and friends, and any women he regularly comes in contact with should know.

Us knowing that a rape happened doesn't really do anything to improve the situation, but knowing that a specific guy is a rapist could prevent future crimes. Do you really think this is the only time he's done it?

If she names him, other victims may come forward with cases that are still within the statute of limitations, and the guy can be locked up. That's what we saw in the Weinstein case. A lot of the initial accusations were too old to prosecute, but other women came forward and they nailed the bastard. That's what I would hope would result from an identification.

At the very least, other women can be warned to stay away from this predator. A specific allegation can do a lot of good. A generic allegation just vaguely tarnishes all the guys she interviewed.
   13. Jay Seaver Posted: June 24, 2021 at 03:43 PM (#6026157)
And how much personal trauma should she re-inflict upon herself by doing that, especially if she doesn't have solid enough evidence for it to hold up in a court of law? She's been a sport reporter; she knows just what kind of fanatically devoted fans players can have, or how some folks will defend anything to do with their favorite team, and that there's a sizable chunk of misogynists who just don't like the idea of women having anything to do with sports to begin with. Naming a name has the potential to point all those people, some of whom may be violent, in her direction, and she knows that. And, if she can't offer proof, her rapist could accuse her of being defamatory or inflame that previous group to go after her. Heck, he could sue, and odds are she doesn't have the resources to fight it that he does.

And that's just putting herself in physical danger; having something that specific making the rounds will continually remind her of the worst night of her life. I'm guessing she doesn't need that strain, but does want to lay out a more generalized warning to women to be careful and make sure everybody knows these accusations are likely not absurd or smears when they come out.

Would it be nice if she could put more specific information out there? Yeah. But it's not the responsibility of the victim of a crime to make sure that a criminal gets punished; that just allows their attacker to take even more from them. That some do, and put themselves in danger to do so, is noble, but also above and beyond what one should reasonably expect from a victim.
   14. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: June 24, 2021 at 04:31 PM (#6026165)
Would it be nice if she could put more specific information out there? Yeah. But it's not the responsibility of the victim of a crime to make sure that a criminal gets punished; that just allows their attacker to take even more from them. That some do, and put themselves in danger to do so, is noble, but also above and beyond what one should reasonably expect from a victim.

Much of what you say makes sense, but this last part is nutty. If victims won't come forward, crimes like this (rape, robbery, assault, etc.) never get punished. No one can have more responsibility than the victim, because without the victim the investigation never gets started.
   15. Jay Seaver Posted: June 24, 2021 at 06:19 PM (#6026181)
That came out more absolute than I meant, but still, the general point is that the victim of a crime's first responsibility is to themselves, and that if they feel that their physical and mental well-being will be harmed more than helped by pursuing punishment, it's not incumbent upon them to do so. That some do is noble and often heroic, but with this type of crime in particular, the women involved have a pretty good idea how an accusation against someone like a high-profile athlete will go; even if they haven't already experienced it on a different scale, they probably know someone who has.

So, yes, punishment doesn't happen without victims coming forward (and that's making the dubious assumption that punishment is the most useful outcome), but that's an onus that can't reasonably be placed entirely on people who have just been through a trauma. Offering more support can change the equation, but the system isn't really set up for that.
   16. Never Give an Inge (Dave) Posted: June 24, 2021 at 10:14 PM (#6026242)

She obviously didn't interview a couple of hundred guys. Times doesn't let me read the article. Does she name any of her interview subjects in the original article?


Newspaper articles don't include a list of everyone interviewed for the story. Plenty of times people get interviewed and the quotes don't get included. As I said, it could literally be any foreign-born player who wasn't on the Rangers in 2002.
   17. Lowry Seasoning Salt Posted: June 25, 2021 at 03:02 AM (#6026266)
If victims won't come forward, crimes like this (rape, robbery, assault, etc.) never get punished. No one can have more responsibility than the victim, because without the victim the investigation never gets started.


Read the article: https://archive.is/ymXAc

While I'm sure it won't sway you, Kat makes clear her goal isn't punishment:

I choose not to name him because it would only open me up to the possibility of having dirt thrown on my reputation; even all these years later and in the wake of the #MeToo movement, a former professional athlete wields considerable power. I hope I can help bring about systemic change rather than seek unlikely-to-come justice for one horrible act.

I hope that by sharing my experiences, more women will feel comfortable speaking up when something is inappropriate. And I also hope more people working in these spaces will bring change, whether in big ways, as an executive empowered to hire more inclusively, or in small ways, speaking up when someone jokes that a woman slept her way to a job or a story.


And since nothing you've said suggests you bothered to read her words on Twitter, note there she commented, among other things,

People make the choices that are best for them in the moment, that will enable them to move forward in life in the best way possible.


Criticize her for that? I can't fathom the horror, pain, and turmoil of everything she's been through. Reading all she has shared, what comes to mind for me is how much better we as a society can do to prevent awfulness like this. I mean that from a cultural perspective, and thus I become more mindful of my own actions or inactions which could be improved.
   18. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: June 25, 2021 at 10:30 AM (#6026288)
Criticize her for that?

I'm not criticizing her. Whatever helps her move forward, fine. It's simply that her revelation doesn't DO anything, except maybe help her heal. If it does great, but there's literally nothing society can take from this that's going to improve things going forward. Telling rapists that rape is devastating for women isn't going to stop them, either they don't care or they actually get off on it. The only things that are going to reduce rape are 1) catching and punishing the offenders harshly, and 2) giving women common sense strategies for avoiding dangerous situations, and number 2) is actually controversial in our crazy society. Oh, and I did read her Twitter comments. The only way this helps women is if they alter there behavior to avoid dangerous situations.
   19. Jose Is An Absurd Balladeer Posted: June 25, 2021 at 10:41 AM (#6026289)
2) giving women common sense strategies for avoiding dangerous situations, and number 2) is actually controversial in our crazy society


It's controversial because it's bullshit. Read her story or the one Ghiroli wrote. Meeting with a source should not be considered a dangerous situation. That's the job, meet with someone, get information. If meeting with a man is fundamentally dangerous then we may as well just lock up all men. I've managed to be in a room alone with a woman and not rape her. I'm sure you have too. I'm sure most men have. It's not that difficult. The person at fault in a rape is THE RAPIST. Not the victim.
   20. jmurph Posted: June 25, 2021 at 10:57 AM (#6026290)
Sadly, Jose, there are ONLY 2 ways to prevent this kind of thing, and neither of them places the onus on the actual perpetrator of the crimes. I don't make the rules, snapper does.
   21. jmurph Posted: June 25, 2021 at 11:00 AM (#6026292)
Also the idea that girls and women are not drilled in "common sense strategies" to avoid getting raped, from a very young age, is something that could only be expressed by someone who has spent very little time listening to or reading actual human women.
   22. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: June 25, 2021 at 11:16 AM (#6026296)
It's controversial because it's bullshit. Read her story or the one Ghiroli wrote. Meeting with a source should not be considered a dangerous situation. That's the job, meet with someone, get information. If meeting with a man is fundamentally dangerous then we may as well just lock up all men. I've managed to be in a room alone with a woman and not rape her. I'm sure you have too. I'm sure most men have. It's not that difficult. The person at fault in a rape is THE RAPIST. Not the victim.

Well, it ended up being dangerous, didn't it. There are a percentage of men (5%? 10%?) that will rape if they can get away with it. Thus has it always been. Whether it's right or wrong, if she had met with him in the hotel bar, she wouldn't have gotten raped. Into that the better outcome than insisting on some abstract right?

Sadly, Jose, there are ONLY 2 ways to prevent this kind of thing, and neither of them places the onus on the actual perpetrator of the crimes. I don't make the rules, snapper does.

What the other one? Do you think preaching to the 90-95% of men who would never rape does any good? And preaching to the rapists does less good; they don't care.

This isn't a "confused signals" situation where consent education could help. This is flat out forcible rate. The guy knew what he was doing was wrong. I'm sure he had done it before, and has kept doing it. Just like Weinstein and Matt Lauer and all the "Me too" perps, they won't stop until they pay a severe price for their actions.

Also the idea that girls and women are not drilled in "common sense strategies" to avoid getting raped, from a very young age, is something that could only be expressed by someone who has spent very little time listening to or reading actual human women.

Well, this particular woman could have avoided being raped if she had followed a common sense strategy.
   23. jmurph Posted: June 25, 2021 at 11:28 AM (#6026297)
Tens of thousands of American women just out there asking for it every year. What a world you live in.
   24. Jose Is An Absurd Balladeer Posted: June 25, 2021 at 11:29 AM (#6026298)
Well, this particular woman could have avoided being raped if she had followed a common sense strategy.


What "common sense strategy" is that? Not meeting with someone that she knew, that she had a pre-existing relationship with and had no reason whatsoever to assume he was a threat?

Your attitude is why O'Brien talking about this is important even without naming the person. By your logic a one on one job interview with a man should not be something a woman should do. A woman performing a newspaper or radio interview one on one? No good. How about a female doctor examining a male patient in a private room? Should women just assume that in all situations they need a man with them to protect them?
   25. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: June 25, 2021 at 11:33 AM (#6026299)
Tens of thousands of American women just out there asking for it every year. What a world you live in.

For f***s sake, don't be daft. I never said anything about her actions diminishing the guilt of the perp. I'm the one who wants him identified and punished; either legal or by social stigma. Failure of the victim to take all precautions doesn't reduce the guilt of the criminal at all, but it does make you more likely to be a victim.

Let's look at a real life example without the emotion attached. There have been a string of car thefts in my area. The vast majority have been cars where the owner left the key fob in the car in their driveway or in front of their house. No one says the perps are less guilty, or the car owners were "asking for it" but a lot of people do say you should stop leaving your keys in the car.
   26. jmurph Posted: June 25, 2021 at 11:35 AM (#6026300)
Let's look at a real life example without the emotion attached. There have been a string of car thefts in my area. The vast majority have been cars where the owner left the key fob in the car in their driveway or in front of their house. No one says the perps are less guilty, or the car owners were "asking for it" but a lot of people do say you should stop leaving your keys in the car.

Tremendous example in which a person leaving their key in their car is compared to a woman just walking around as a woman doing normal woman things. Delightful.
   27. Jay Seaver Posted: June 25, 2021 at 11:39 AM (#6026301)
The only things that are going to reduce rape are 1) catching and punishing the offenders harshly, and 2) giving women common sense strategies for avoiding dangerous situations, and number 2) is actually controversial in our crazy society. Oh, and I did read her Twitter comments. The only way this helps women is if they alter there behavior to avoid dangerous situations.


(1) is something we often assume but which doesn't seem to be particularly true in practice - there's seldom been much evidence that severe punishment has a deterrent effect, and our justice system is poorly equipped to deal with this particular crime; barring extremely convincing forensic evidence, it's hard to get a unanimous verdict

(2) is controversial because what it often boils down to is "women must deny themselves opportunities men don't because men can't be trusted to behave themselves" which is, as Jose puts it, bullshit, or at the very least, not what we should be striving for as a society.

What sharing stories like this does, ideally, is cement the idea of how common and abhorrent this is in men's minds so they can apply social pressure, not let lesser acts that can escalate go with "boys will be boys", and not be so generally blind to the extent of the problem that they dismiss a woman's claims. Women know all this, but men generally don't, at least not on a visceral level, but the hope is that peers saying "dude, not cool!" early on will get through far more than lectures from outsiders.
   28. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: June 25, 2021 at 11:40 AM (#6026302)
What "common sense strategy" is that? Not meeting with someone that she knew, that she had a pre-existing relationship with and had no reason whatsoever to assume he was a threat?

Your attitude is why O'Brien talking about this is important even without naming the person. By your logic a one on one job interview with a man should not be something a woman should do. A woman performing a newspaper or radio interview one on one? No good. How about a female doctor examining a male patient in a private room? Should women just assume that in all situations they need a man with them to protect them?


Never go the hotel room or bedroom of a member of the opposite sex unless you are having an intimate relationship. I have never been alone in the hotel room of a women I wasn't involved with. It's not hard todo.

A job interview and a doctors office are somewhat different in that there are usually plenty of people around who would hear screams, but there's a reason many companies moved to glass doors and walls for conf. rooms and offices. Also, many medical practices have a 3rd person present, especially male gynecologists, or situations where anesthesia of any kind is used. Interviews can be conducted in public places.

Women should know that 5-10% of men will rape them if give the opportunity. Don't give them that opportunity.
   29. jmurph Posted: June 25, 2021 at 11:42 AM (#6026303)
Should women just assume that in all situations they need a man with them to protect them?

Hmmm this seems to exacerbate the problem, she's being even more personally reckless if there is a 2nd man. A team of men and women, perhaps, maybe some UN peacekeepers? Just in all social and business interactions involving one man and one woman.
   30. jmurph Posted: June 25, 2021 at 11:43 AM (#6026304)
Never go the hotel room or bedroom of a member of the opposite sex unless you are having an intimate relationship. I have never been alone in the hotel room of a women I wasn't involved with. It's not hard todo.

You've never been to a work conference, and swung by to pick up your colleague, practice a presentation, etc.?
   31. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: June 25, 2021 at 11:48 AM (#6026305)
You've never been to a work conference, and swung by to pick up your colleague, practice a presentation, etc.?

I might have swung by and knocked, but we didn't go inside together and close the door, no. Being alone, behind closed doors in the bedroom of a woman I'm not at least dating is quite a weird concept to me. There's plenty of public spaces in hotels.

I frankly don't even like one-on-one work meetings behind closed doors. I'm a big fan of glass walls and doors at work. If not possible, I'll leave the door open.
   32. Itchy Row Posted: June 25, 2021 at 12:33 PM (#6026309)
If the door closes, snapper starts raping.
   33. Nasty Nate Posted: June 25, 2021 at 12:52 PM (#6026311)
It's simply that her revelation doesn't DO anything, except maybe help her heal. If it does great, but there's literally nothing society can take from this that's going to improve things going forward.
It assists in the exact thing you are suggesting! Women aren't going to avoid some situations like you want unless they know why to avoid them.
   34. Der-K's emotional investment is way up Posted: June 25, 2021 at 04:05 PM (#6026336)
We had a long discussion here, years ago, about sexual assault and a poster used the term "rape culture". I told her my issues with that term; it was new to me and I was wrong. Why I'm reminded of that here is no doubt obvious.

There are many things that talking about sexual assault can do, not the least of which is make people who are at lower risk (cis-dudes) more aware of the many ways others faced increased risks, simply for being who they are, at work and elsewhere, so that we can collectively take steps to make the world better and safer. Even if you don't care about that (and you should!), you'll get a better world of baseball if you don't have reporters leaving or failing to enter the industry because it's not safe for them.
   35. Lowry Seasoning Salt Posted: June 26, 2021 at 01:08 AM (#6026439)
Emphasis added:

The only things that are going to reduce rape are 1) catching and punishing the offenders harshly, and 2) giving women common sense strategies for avoiding dangerous situations, and number 2) is actually controversial in our crazy society.


I know it's not the intent, but this suggests that loads more rapes would occur if not for 1) potential rapists fearing punishment, and 2) women deftly deploying common sense. Put another way, it's as if snapper is saying he'd be a rapist if not for 1) his fear of punishment or 2) his luck in only being around women using common sense.

Snapper, I don't think those descriptions reflect who you are. I'm confident you'd say something like you're not interested in power over others, your aspiration is to treat people respectfully, you have control over your emotions, etc. And I believe those types of descriptions of you would be true. Those are the types of things I meant when I said upthread that "what comes to mind for me is how much better we as a society can do to prevent awfulness like this. I mean that from a cultural perspective...." No doubt, it would be great if the alleged perpetrator here were found guilty and punished, but that's not what will change things on a social level. Things like showing men how to respect others, demonstrating how to understand and manage emotions, teaching them how physical superiority grants no rights over others.... None of that comes from the justice you seek and claim is one of the only ways to reduce rape.
   36. Mellow Mouse, Benevolent Space Tyrant Posted: June 26, 2021 at 10:12 AM (#6026446)
Let's look at a real-life example without the emotion attached. There have been a string of car thefts in my area. The vast majority have been cars where the owner left the key fob in the car in their driveway or in front of their house. No one says the perps are less guilty, or the car owners were "asking for it" but a lot of people do say you should stop leaving your keys in the car.


The thing is this is almost right. Because half the population basically can and does "leave their key fob" just lying around. The vast majority of the time it is women punished for not being 100% eternally paranoid/vigilant. Men just skate through.

And then some men point out when women are only 5 times as paranoid as men typically need to be, not the 10 times as paranoid that is necessary to protect them more (not at all entirely but to get them a little closer to the safety known by men).

So yes, how dare women not show that extra bit of paranoia in every waking moment of their life. Or, and just listen for a second, possibly we could address the root of the problem, which is men raping women and the rape culture that even far too many non-rapey men allow to flourish.
   37. Never Give an Inge (Dave) Posted: June 26, 2021 at 10:48 AM (#6026447)
I thought her article was also helpful in talking about the other types of harassment she endured in her career.

I don’t think most men need to be reminded not to rape a woman. But it’s also helpful to be reminded not to always believe or promulgate rumors about who a woman slept with to get to her position, that she was only hired for her looks, etc. A lot of the time, that stuff is BS, and sometimes those stories are actually cover for a situation in which the woman was actually the victim in some way.
   38. MY PAIN IS NOT A HOLIDAY (CoB). Posted: June 26, 2021 at 12:49 PM (#6026450)
In a two-hour-long, question-and-answer interview with the public on live television, Imran Khan was asked what steps his government had taken to prevent sexual abuse.

After denouncing crimes against women and children, he said that sexual violence was a result of "increasing obscenity", adding it was a product of India, the West and Hollywood movies.


So ... yeah.
   39. MY PAIN IS NOT A HOLIDAY (CoB). Posted: June 26, 2021 at 12:55 PM (#6026451)
In an excerpt of his interview on HBO – aired on Sunday and shared on Saturday on Axios' website – interviewer Jonathan Swan asks if the PM thinks what women wear has any effect on the temptation that leads to rapes, Khan says, “If a woman is wearing very few clothes, it will have an impact on the men, unless they’re robots. I mean it is common sense.”


Somehow I have managed to go to Burning Man 10 times, seen more staggeringly hot women naked than Khan has by several orders of magnitude ... and didn't have the uncontrollable urge to robot rape ANY of them.
   40. pikepredator Posted: June 26, 2021 at 01:50 PM (#6026456)
Those are the types of things I meant when I said upthread that "what comes to mind for me is how much better we as a society can do to prevent awfulness like this. I mean that from a cultural perspective...."


We (as a country) chose to overlook the ongoing, unrepentant, public mistreatment of women in electing Trump, dismissing it (and thus tacitly approving of it) as "what boys do". That says all you need to know about America's value system. There were plenty of Republicans who had far better attitudes towards women and far less public histories of mistreatment, but it didn't matter enough to sway the votes of a large swath of America, because they valued other issues as being far more important than treating women cruelly, treating them as objects.

Until we have a culture that prioritizes to safety of women and does more to speak out against people who use speak about women as Trump did, rape will continue to be far more common than it should be. Rape is but one component of the systemic, pervasive mistreatment of women. Viewing rape in isolation does a disservice to women who aren't raped but are similarly mistreated by men who aren't taught the proper way to treat women.

Stronger, more consistent actions against domestic abusers would also help. Focusing solely on "what women should do to avoid being raped" neatly sidesteps the question of why so many men grow up thinking they can treat women poorly - of which rape is but one of many aspects.
   41. MY PAIN IS NOT A HOLIDAY (CoB). Posted: June 26, 2021 at 02:10 PM (#6026457)
@pike
I think that drives the second part of my disgust about Khan's statements ... it's not just "oh, when you show us an uncovered ankle, well, men will be men".
It's directly demeaning to them, but it's also directly insulting to me.
They're "whores" and we're "animals".
They are not ... and we(for the most part) are not.

   42. smileyy Posted: June 26, 2021 at 06:08 PM (#6026476)
and we're "animals"


This is why men need feminism too.
   43. Eddo Posted: June 26, 2021 at 09:09 PM (#6026486)
This is why men need feminism too.

And why addressing toxic masculinity is important. Too many react as if the "masculinity" part is the problem.
   44. Swedish Chef Posted: June 27, 2021 at 06:12 PM (#6026584)

Somehow I have managed to go to Burning Man 10 times, seen more staggeringly hot women naked than Khan has by several orders of magnitude ... and didn't have the uncontrollable urge to robot rape ANY of them.


I don't know what kind of groupies cricket attracts, but Imran Khan probably did see a fair bit in his previous career as sports star.
   45. . Posted: June 28, 2021 at 11:06 AM (#6026644)
That came out more absolute than I meant, but still, the general point is that the victim of a crime's first responsibility is to themselves, and that if they feel that their physical and mental well-being will be harmed more than helped by pursuing punishment, it's not incumbent upon them to do so.


That may or may not be true -- I'd have to think about it more -- but what is unequivocally true is that society's and the community's first interest and responsibility is in ensuring that the perp is found and punished. Unless somehow coincidentally the guy did it again and got punished and jailed for it again, there's a rapist on the loose in the community and women are in danger. That's supremely sub-optimal.(*) I won't rank that interest vis-a-vis the victim's path to healing, because it's pointless.

(*) And the postmodern "punishment" ritual of Twitter/social media shame and message board denunciation, often of everything but the perp, is far less effective than jail.
   46. Jay Seaver Posted: June 28, 2021 at 04:52 PM (#6026728)
what is unequivocally true is that society's and the community's first interest and responsibility is in ensuring that the perp is found and punished.


Eh, I can equivocate there. I mean, yes, I would much prefer that this person not be in a position to assault anyone else, but even if law enforcement had the resources - or, let's be honest, the will - to pursue these cases, odds are that they would have little to bring to court beyond an accusation. Then, the prosecutor has to convince 12 people that what the defendant says about it having never happened or being consensual isn't true beyond a reasonable doubt, with it entirely possible that at least one person on the jury won't convict because he doesn't think the accused did anything wrong. Net effect: Justice not done, attacker perhaps emboldened, victim retraumatized. I respect the heck out of any victim who chooses to go down this path, but the odds are not in their favor.

That being the case, society's most immediate interest is giving the victims whatever support they need, because that is all that they can do in a practical sense. Long-term, society's best interest is in making it less likely to happen again, and that's the tougher part, especially if the sort of surveillance necessary to make it easier to use the criminal justice system makes one nervous. It means changing attitudes about a lot of deeply-embedded things that point in the same direction even if they don't go as far, but at least it's proactive rather than reactive, even if it is much harder.

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