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Wednesday, August 18, 2021

Jack Morris under fire for using Asian accent during Shohei Ohtani at-bat

Tigers announcer and Hall of Fame pitcher Jack Morris was criticizing after using an accent to answer a question about Shohei Ohtani in Detroit’s game against the Angels on Tuesday night.

Morris was asked by Bally Sports play-by-play man Matt Shepard what the Tigers “should do with Shohei Ohtani?” during his at-bat in the sixth inning.

Morris responded by attempting to use an Asian accent and saying, “Be very, very careful.”

The 66-year-old Morris apologized before Ohtani’s next at-bat.

“Well folks, Shohei Ohtani is coming to the plate and it’s been brought to my attention, and I sincerely apologize if I offended anybody, especially anybody in the Asian community for what I said about pitching and being careful to Shohei Ohtani,” Morris said.

RoyalsRetro (AG#1F) Posted: August 18, 2021 at 11:37 AM | 515 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
  Tags: jack morris

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   101. Starring Bradley Scotchman as RMc Posted: August 19, 2021 at 03:06 PM (#6035163)
Bally Sports: Jack, we've had a lot of complaints about that little "joke" of yours last night. I know you didn't mean anything racist about it, but this is 2021, not 1951, and a broadcast booth isn't a clubhouse. We're giving you a pass this time if you apologize on the air, but one more incident like this and it will end your relationship with Bally Sports.

Would that meet with your approval?


Actually, that's not quite strong enough. I'd go with something more like: "Jack, we've had a lot of complaints about that little "joke" of yours last night. This is 2021, not the eighties, and a broadcast booth isn't a clubhouse. We've got a business to run here. We're willing to let this go if you apologize on the air, but one more incident like this and we're gonna have to part ways. OK?"
   102. Brian C Posted: August 19, 2021 at 03:07 PM (#6035164)
Maybe in 10 years she'll reveal that she felt uncomfortable with the whole thing and pressured into doing these bits, like how Scarlett Johansson is now commenting on the objectification/sexualization of Black Widow in the MCU.

In which case the rest of us will roll our eyes at the blatant hypocrisy of accepting it when it was making them rich and famous.

Simply put, there are too many actors who toil in anonymity or worse because they do stand up for themselves and don't tolerate material that they are "uncomfortable" with to feel sorry for the ones that happily sell out only to complain later that they were the real victims along.
   103. ERROR---Jolly Old St. Nick Posted: August 19, 2021 at 03:26 PM (#6035169)
Bally Sports: Jack, we've had a lot of complaints about that little "joke" of yours last night. I know you didn't mean anything racist about it, but this is 2021, not 1951, and a broadcast booth isn't a clubhouse. We're giving you a pass this time if you apologize on the air, but one more incident like this and it will end your relationship with Bally Sports.

Would that meet with your approval?


Actually, that's not quite strong enough. I'd go with something more like: "Jack, we've had a lot of complaints about that little "joke" of yours last night. This is 2021, not the eighties, and a broadcast booth isn't a clubhouse. We've got a business to run here. We're willing to let this go if you apologize on the air, but one more incident like this and we're gonna have to part ways. OK?"


Slight variant in wording, but they both get the point across. I'd have no problem with your version.

   104. Mike A Posted: August 19, 2021 at 05:02 PM (#6035194)
A lot of the players who broke the Braves' heart in the 90s turned out to be real pieces of work: Jack, Kirby Puckett, Roberto Alomar, Lenny Dykstra, and of course Jim Leyritz. At least Morris didn't kill anyone and appears to be just an obnoxious casserole.
   105. Harmon "Thread Killer" Microbrew Posted: August 19, 2021 at 05:22 PM (#6035201)
If I am not mistaken, a different report of the 1991 ALCS confrontation indicated that Morris called Berg a ditch and she was the one who referred to him as a casserole.
   106. Der-K's tired of these fruits from poisoned trees Posted: August 19, 2021 at 08:42 PM (#6035225)
66: irrespective of that clip - hari k can be pretty funny but he’s hit and miss. on the whole, I like him.
that clip: eh. one problem with a lot of that kind of comedy is that in can fall into soliciting clapter territory… which is distinct, I think, from the comps you cited, andy.
on hari on azaria and apu specifically: it got expanded into a short doc. (see stiggles previous comment) said doc was a good idea but i thought the execution was so-so. kondabalu’s take is more complicated than this clip suggests and i am under the impression that it had an impact on azaria’s thinking vis-a-vis that character (which he opted to no longer voice) and other work he’s done. (sidebar: azaria’s work as brockmire shows a great love for baseball and the character grew more nuanced over time. good show.)
   107. sunday silence (again) Posted: August 19, 2021 at 09:06 PM (#6035226)
But demanding his head on a pike is not a good look; indeed, demanding heads on pikes for every stupid little g@ddamned thing is manifestly NOT making the world a better place. Let's everybody just roll our eyes, take a step back, and calm the heck down.


This is like dissecting a PIT trade in a vaccum. On the face of it, nearly every PIT trade can be explained as logical. This one is unloading an expensive player; maybe we can use that cash one someone better? this one is unloading veteran for younger players, sure we can build for the future that makes sense right? This one is letting go of three future prospects for a cagey veteran, sure build veteran presence make a run for it now. Well that makes sense. Sure everyone of those can make sense for the right plan.

But when you look at the big picture the PIT aren't going anywhere either short or long term. The thing with Morris is when you consider his entire body of work, he seems at least on Kingman level of assholery which rather justifies the indef suspension.
   108. Starring Bradley Scotchman as RMc Posted: August 20, 2021 at 07:58 AM (#6035279)
This is like dissecting a PIT trade in a vacuum.

A what?

(Morris) seems at least on Kingman level of assholery

Naah. Kingman was almost universally disliked by the media (he sent a live rat to one of them) and his own teammates -- which were many, since he changed teams often (even playing for four different clubs in 1977 alone). I remember hoping he'd get to 500 (pre-steroids) HR, just to see what the HOF would do. (Hilariously, Kingman's 17 WAR keister actually got three votes in 1992; less hilariously, Bobby Grich and his 71 WAR was also on the ballot that year and were promptly sent packing with only 11 votes.)
   109. SoSH U at work Posted: August 20, 2021 at 08:13 AM (#6035281)
I remember hoping he'd get to 500 (pre-steroids) HR, just to see what the HOF would do


He would have been lucky to see a second ballot.
   110. . Posted: August 20, 2021 at 08:44 AM (#6035284)
When everything's racist, nothing is.
   111. KronicFatigue Posted: August 20, 2021 at 11:54 AM (#6035309)
When everything's racist, we live in a racist society and we need to do better.
   112. Srul Itza Posted: August 20, 2021 at 12:35 PM (#6035318)
As an actual British person, I can assure you that an American trying to imitate a British accent as a joke is something that I would interpret as racist.



If there is anyone who has it coming, it's the Brits. They screwed over everyone, every where they could get away with it, for as long as they could get away with it. And they have never come close to apologizing, much less making amends.


Up the tall ladder and down the short rope . . . .
   113. . . . . . . Posted: August 20, 2021 at 12:54 PM (#6035320)
When everything's racist, we live in a racist society and we need to do better.


Why do we need to do better? We also live in a society where people are driven by sexual urges, and trying to be anti-sexual as worked about as well as you would expect. In-group/out-group dynamics and tribalism are part of being human. IMO, "doing better" would mean we learn to accept 'othering' and redirect it in healthy ways, rather than have a bunch of anti-racists reconstruct the same sort of class and power dynamics but with a different set of winners and losers. Of course, YMMV, but there's -zero- reason to think that antiracists are on the right side of history's moral arc. Especially the anti-racists who are seeking power, prestige and wealth, who have a lot more in common with other people who seek power, prestige and wealth than they do with any people who "do good" - or "better'.

Accents are funny. There are bad accent jokes and good accent jokes, but every single person on this thread has laughed at a funny accent joke. They're funny because people say things or sound in a way that us unexpected, awkward, or uncomfortable, that sometimes highlights ridiculous elements of our own language and culture. Everyone will continue to laugh at accent jokes behind closed doors. The only difference is that now it's taboo, which again, is fine, but is no different than telling women that being sexual is unwomanly.
   114. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: August 20, 2021 at 01:16 PM (#6035323)
When everything's racist, we live in a racist society and we need to do better.

We (Western democratic nations) are probably the least racist society in the history of mankind.

In-group/out-group dynamics and tribalism are part of being human. IMO, "doing better" would mean we learn to accept 'othering' and redirect it in healthy ways, rather than have a bunch of anti-racists reconstruct the same sort of class and power dynamics but with a different set of winners and losers. Of course, YMMV, but there's -zero- reason to think that antiracists are on the right side of history's moral arc. Especially the anti-racists who are seeking power, prestige and wealth, who have a lot more in common with other people who seek power, prestige and wealth than they do with any people who "do good" - or "better'.

Exactly. "Anti-racism" is a racist ideology seeking power for its acolytes. As John McWorter (among others) has accurately diagnosed "Woke racism" is a fundamentalist religion, and a particularly noxious one.

It's also a remarkably cynical and ruthless evasion by the white elites to villainize ordinary white people, while distracting from their own rapaciousness. If white CEOs are going to ##### about white privilege, they should resign, so someone who isn't worth $100M (of whatever color) can enjoy their income for a while.

Racism is a real, but relatively small problem in the U.S. Most of our real problems are class based.
   115. 57i66135 is a hard word for me. Posted: August 20, 2021 at 01:27 PM (#6035326)
Exactly. "Anti-racism" is a racist ideology seeking power for its acolytes. As John McWorter (among others) has accurately diagnosed "Woke racism" is a fundamentalist religion, and a particularly noxious one.

ew.
   116. sunday silence (again) Posted: August 20, 2021 at 01:29 PM (#6035327)
I am sex positive. Just for the record.
   117. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: August 20, 2021 at 01:31 PM (#6035329)
ew.

Read a book. Learn something.

https://www.amazon.com/Woke-Racism-Religion-Betrayed-America/dp/0593423062

Or visit his sub-stack. It's free.

https://johnmcwhorter.substack.com/p/the-elect-the-threat-to-a-progressive

BTW, McWorter is a black liberal.
   118. Lassus Posted: August 20, 2021 at 01:35 PM (#6035331)
but every single person on this thread has laughed at a funny accent joke.
Everyone will continue to laugh at accent jokes behind closed doors.
What? No. Talk about projection. I mean, maybe before I turned twelve, if you're counting that. Sixteen Candles was about the most racist thing I've ever seen on film, and I knew that when I saw it, not when I was 30 or when the "Woke Mob" got to me. Two years before I could fucking drive.

We (Western democratic nations) are probably the least racist society in the history of mankind.
Are you seeing a logical fallacy in this conclusion of victory? Because you should.

As John McWorter (among others) has accurately diagnosed
Is there some guideline we can use to figure out when the GOP adores academics as interpretive authorities not to be questioned?
   119. ERROR---Jolly Old St. Nick Posted: August 20, 2021 at 01:51 PM (#6035335)
Read a book. Learn something.

https://www.amazon.com/Woke-Racism-Religion-Betrayed-America/dp/0593423062


McWhorter's a very good writer, but if you've actually read that book whose publication date is over two months away, you must either be a book reviewer or you work for Penguin. McWhorter's made that comparison to fundamentalism before, but if you actually want anyone to be able to read that argument without waiting until late October, you might have suggested they read his 2018 article in The Atlantic. He's also just launched a subscribers-only email for NYT readers where his first column was "How 'Woke' Became an Insult". He's not a writer who can be pigeonholed into any neat little ideological box.
   120. ERROR---Jolly Old St. Nick Posted: August 20, 2021 at 01:59 PM (#6035336)
We (Western democratic nations) are probably the least racist society in the history of mankind.

A better way of putting that would be to say that we're a work in progress, and progress doesn't always come easily. MLK put it nicely:
“I may not be the man I want to be; I may not be the man I ought to be; I may not be the man I could be; I may not be the man I truly can be; but praise God, I’m not the man I once was.”**

A sentiment that could be rightly applied to the country we live in.

** Sometimes expressed as "I ain't what I should be, and I ain't what I wanta be, but thank God I ain't what I used to be."

   121. . . . . . . Posted: August 20, 2021 at 02:11 PM (#6035338)
What? No. Talk about projection. I mean, maybe before I turned twelve, if you're counting that.


Of course I'm counting that. You can repress the hell out of your humanity all you want, but at the end of the day, a high class english accent telling fart jokes makes you laugh on the inside. Maybe you'll come out of the accent closet some day.
   122. sunday silence (again) Posted: August 20, 2021 at 02:12 PM (#6035339)
What? No. Talk about projection. I mean, maybe before I turned twelve, if you're counting that.


He's obviously counting that. His arguments are always this hyper technical.
   123. Srul Itza Posted: August 20, 2021 at 02:14 PM (#6035340)
Racism is a real, but relatively small problem in the U.S.


Relatively small if you're white.
   124. sunday silence (again) Posted: August 20, 2021 at 02:15 PM (#6035342)
We (Western democratic nations) are probably the least racist society in the history of mankind.


George Floyd says "I can't breath."
   125. Accent Shallow only believes what it believes Posted: August 20, 2021 at 02:17 PM (#6035343)
There are bad accent jokes and good accent jokes, but every single person on this thread has laughed at a funny accent joke.


Always nice to be appreciated.
   126. . . . . . . Posted: August 20, 2021 at 02:20 PM (#6035344)
Here's a story that happened to be the other day. I'm walking my puppy - who is blessed with an extraordinarily large penis for a 10lb dog, and is also unusually handsome/symmetrical/proportional - down the city street. A chinese lady, closing down a nail parlour, sees him, and like most humans with a pulse, instantly melts. He's a charmer.

Her accent is super-thick mainland Chinese, if we're being technical about it I'm pretty sure Fujianese. Couldn't have been more stereotypical.

"Ohhhh .... such a BEAUUUUUTIFUL dog! Is it girl!? Is it boy!?"

(she crouches down, pets him and reaches below him and grabs his penis)

"Ohhhhhh is BOYYYY! . . . and such a STURDY BOY!"

I say, 'George, I think you've got an admirer'. And as we walk away, she calls after us:

"GEORGE! such a FAMOUS name for such a STURDY boy!"

Now that's a moderately funny story without the accent overlay. With the accent, strangers were cracking up in the street. Funniest damn thing that's happened to me in years.

This is not racist.
   127. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: August 20, 2021 at 02:23 PM (#6035345)
McWhorter's a very good writer, but if you've actually read that book whose publication date is over two months away, you must either be a book reviewer or you work for Penguin. McWhorter's made that comparison to fundamentalism before, but if you actually want anyone to be able to read that argument without waiting until late October, you might have suggested they read his 2018 article in The Atlantic. He's also just launched a subscribers-only email for NYT readers where his first column was "How 'Woke' Became an Insult". He's not a writer who can be pigeonholed into any neat little ideological box.

I've already read a lot of the book. He published many chapters of it for free on his substack.
   128. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: August 20, 2021 at 02:27 PM (#6035346)
George Floyd says "I can't breath."

Tony Timpa agrees.

https://www.cnn.com/2019/08/02/us/dallas-police-body-cam-footage-captures-death/index.html

Excessively violent police are a problem, but not primarily a racial problem. Lots of whites get killed unnecessarily by the police too. It just doesn't make the news.
   129. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: August 20, 2021 at 02:31 PM (#6035348)
A better way of putting that would be to say that we're a work in progress, and progress doesn't always come easily.

Sure, things could be better, and they have been getting steadily better. The catastrophizing that has been going on recently is insane. The idea that American liberal arts colleges are horrible, racist institutions (to pick an example) is just absurd.
   130. ERROR---Jolly Old St. Nick Posted: August 20, 2021 at 02:49 PM (#6035350)
McWhorter's a very good writer, but if you've actually read that book whose publication date is over two months away, you must either be a book reviewer or you work for Penguin. McWhorter's made that comparison to fundamentalism before, but if you actually want anyone to be able to read that argument without waiting until late October, you might have suggested they read his 2018 article in The Atlantic. He's also just launched a subscribers-only email for NYT readers where his first column was "How 'Woke' Became an Insult". He's not a writer who can be pigeonholed into any neat little ideological box.

I've already read a lot of the book. He published many chapters of it for free on his substack.


Yeah, I see you added that to your comment after I'd responded to the Amazon link and then left the thread. But thanks, it's good to know. I've actually just been reading one of his earlier books from 2003, Doing Your Own Thing: The Degradation of Language and Music, and Why We Should, Like, Care. He doesn't have an ounce of BS in him, and for that reason he's my kind of writer.
   131. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: August 20, 2021 at 03:08 PM (#6035352)
Yeah, I see you added that to your comment after I'd responded to the Amazon link and then left the thread. But thanks, it's good to know. I've actually just been reading one of his earlier books from 2003, Doing Your Own Thing: The Degradation of Language and Music, and Why We Should, Like, Care. He doesn't have an ounce of BS in him, and for that reason he's my kind of writer.

You should try "Our Magnificent Bastard Tongue". Very good short history of the English language.

His YouTube discussion with Glenn Loury are also excellent.
   132. WokeeRedneck(WR) Posted: August 20, 2021 at 03:09 PM (#6035353)
There's nothing funny about anything that hurts somebody's feelings.
   133. Starring Bradley Scotchman as RMc Posted: August 20, 2021 at 09:03 PM (#6035416)
The catastrophizing that has been going on recently is insane.

Woke-ism is designed to place us all into warring camps; it's a war that they assume they'll win because they're the good guys, after all. (Won't they be surprised when they discover, post-revolution, that they're the ones kneeling by the muddy trench, and not the ones holding the clipboards!)

There's nothing funny about anything that hurts somebody's feelings.

That pretty much eliminates all of comedy. (Well, at least that'll take out all those awful late-night talk shows.)
   134. ERROR---Jolly Old St. Nick Posted: August 20, 2021 at 09:49 PM (#6035428)
   135. Brian C Posted: August 20, 2021 at 10:17 PM (#6035435)
As John McWorter (among others) has accurately diagnosed "Woke racism" is a fundamentalist religion, and a particularly noxious one.

It seems to me that both parts of this are obviously not true in their own respective ways. Let's not conflate "religion" and "ideology", shall we?

Or actually, I don't think "woke racism" even qualifies as an ideology. It's more a system of social manners - how you're expected to act in public, the airs you're supposed to put on for the world, etc. It's more akin to "don't wear white after Labor Day" than "workers of the world unite!" (ideology) or "God told me to kill the nonbelievers" (fundamentalist religion).

At any rate, it's hard to see what's "particularly noxious" about it compared to fundamentalist religions. Fundamentalism is inherently noxious, after all, and fundamentalists generally tend towards punishment of apostates and heretics that's a lot more extreme than "Hey, let's get this guy cancelled!"
It's also a remarkably cynical and ruthless evasion by the white elites to villainize ordinary white people, while distracting from their own rapaciousness.

Yeah OK, this I can agree with.
Racism is a real, but relatively small problem in the U.S. Most of our real problems are class based.

This seems to hinge greatly on what precisely you mean by the words "relatively" and "our". Seems flippant regardless, though.
   136. Never Give an Inge (Dave) Posted: August 20, 2021 at 10:22 PM (#6035436)
"Ohhhhhh is BOYYYY! . . . and such a STURDY BOY!"

I say, 'George, I think you've got an admirer'. And as we walk away, she calls after us:

"GEORGE! such a FAMOUS name for such a STURDY boy!"

Now that's a moderately funny story without the accent overlay. With the accent, strangers were cracking up in the street. Funniest damn thing that's happened to me in years.


Why do you think it was funny? And if it was Jack Morris feeling up your dog and making the same comments with a fake Chinese accent, would it still have been funny, or maybe a bit racist? Or both?
   137. Brian C Posted: August 20, 2021 at 10:42 PM (#6035438)
And if it was Jack Morris feeling up your dog and making the same comments with a fake Chinese accent, would it still have been funny

I mean, when you put it like that ... yeah, kinda.
   138. ERROR---Jolly Old St. Nick Posted: August 20, 2021 at 11:19 PM (#6035444)
Or actually, I don't think "woke racism" even qualifies as an ideology. It's more a system of social manners - how you're expected to act in public, the airs you're supposed to put on for the world, etc. It's more akin to "don't wear white after Labor Day" than "workers of the world unite!" (ideology) or "God told me to kill the nonbelievers" (fundamentalist religion).

If that were all "woke racism" involved, it wouldn't be so problematical. But when it starts demanding maximum penalties for every perceived slight, no matter how innocent, and when it starts judging people by their worst moments rather than seeing them whole, it starts shedding supporters right and left.

Or as McWhorter put it in that Atlantic article:

Third-wave antiracism is a call to enshrine defeatism, hypersensitivity, oversimplification, and even a degree of performance. Lukianoff and Haidt are useful here, in noting the three guiding tenets of the new antiracist culture:

1. What doesn’t kill you makes you weaker.

2. Always trust your feelings.

3. Life is a battle between good people and bad people.

...

The new normal is, “If you don’t like it, cry loudly and then louder, because you’re always right and they’re just bad.” Contrast this approach with that of people lionized today who worked within a racism none could disagree was more implacably overt and hostile than today. The black lawyer and activist Pauli Murray insisted in 1963 that none other than Alabama Governor George “Segregation Forever” Wallace be allowed to speak at Yale. She believed that the speech rights blacks had fought for so hard must be extended to people she found noxious, including on issues as personal to her as race. James Weldon Johnson, the NAACP head and author, insisted in 1934, “I will not allow prejudice or any of its attendant humiliations and injustices bear me down to spiritual defeat. My inner life is mine, and I will maintain and defend its integrity against the forces of hell.” ...

Progressives can battle a War on Drugs that creates a black market that tempts too many poor black men into lives of crime. They can fight for free access to long-acting, reversible contraceptives for poor women and phonics-based reading instruction for kids from bookless homes. They can stand against Republican attempts to discourage the black vote via a sham concern for all-but-nonexistent voter fraud. The struggle must, and will, continue.

But the black person essentially barred from the polls gains nothing from someone sagely attesting to their white privilege on Twitter and decrying that “no one wants to talk about race in this country” ...
   139. 57i66135 is a hard word for me. Posted: August 20, 2021 at 11:39 PM (#6035446)
3. Life is a battle between good people and bad people.

ew.

there are multitudes of problems with this erroneous assertion, but the most immediately aggravating one is that it assumes "good people" and "bad people" are static entities without overlap. it is insidious in the way that it embeds as a given, the idea that people who are not good people cannot endeavor to become good people, and that is a fundamental misunderstanding of what all of this is actually about: expecting people (and in some cases, demanding them) to be less shitty to other people.

or to put it another way, life is a battle between [113]:
Why do we need to do better?
and [120]:
"I ain't what I should be, and I ain't what I wanta be, but thank God I ain't what I used to be."



are you siding with MLK, or are you siding with zop?
   140. 57i66135 is a hard word for me. Posted: August 20, 2021 at 11:40 PM (#6035447)
when it starts demanding maximum penalties for every perceived slight, no matter how innocent, and when it starts judging people by their worst moments rather than seeing them whole, it starts shedding supporters right and left.

al franken resigned from the senate; he was not beheaded on live PPV.
andrew cuomo resigned from his governorship; he was not dragged into the street and beaten to death by joe pesci.
mike richards resigned from hosting jeopardy; he was not kidnapped by the CIA and renditioned to qatar to be waterboarded 273 times.
   141. Brian C Posted: August 20, 2021 at 11:45 PM (#6035449)
Or as McWhorter put it in that Atlantic article:

Yeah, the way that "McWhorter put it" has nothing much to do with either what I said or your response to what I said. It's just something you wanted to quote.
   142. 57i66135 is a hard word for me. Posted: August 21, 2021 at 12:33 AM (#6035451)
The black lawyer and activist Pauli Murray insisted in 1963 that none other than Alabama Governor George “Segregation Forever” Wallace be allowed to speak at Yale. She believed that the speech rights blacks had fought for so hard must be extended to people she found noxious, including on issues as personal to her as race

so, the argument here is that the rights that black people fought so hard for must be given for free to the racist pieces of #### who were on the losing side of that fight?

yeah, gtfoohwtbs.


and fun fact:
speaking at yale is a privilege, not a ####### right.
   143. Lassus Posted: August 21, 2021 at 08:16 AM (#6035455)
Of course I'm counting that. You can repress the hell out of your humanity all you want, but at the end of the day, a high class english accent telling fart jokes makes you laugh on the inside. Maybe you'll come out of the accent closet some day.

This makes your argument stupider, not smarter. "You should return to how you reacted to everything when you were 8 years old, it's the right way to live."
   144. Starring Bradley Scotchman as RMc Posted: August 21, 2021 at 08:38 AM (#6035456)
Yeah, the way that "McWhorter put it" has nothing much to do with either what I said or your response to what I said. It's just something you wanted to quote.

Good quote, tho.
   145. ERROR---Jolly Old St. Nick Posted: August 21, 2021 at 09:24 AM (#6035457)
are you siding with MLK, or are you siding with zop?

I'm siding with the sentiment that MLK invoked. zop has nothing to do with my take on anything.

al franken resigned from the senate; he was not beheaded on live PPV.
andrew cuomo resigned from his governorship; he was not dragged into the street and beaten to death by joe pesci.
mike richards resigned from hosting jeopardy; he was not kidnapped by the CIA and renditioned to qatar to be waterboarded 273 times.


Lovely strawman. Did I use those three cases as examples of what I've been talking about? Do you think that every case is as cut and dried as Cuomo's?

And do you really think that "maximum penalty" refers only to a literal death sentence? Lani Guinier was a victim of exactly the sort of "cancel culture" treatment that you seem to be defending, when a coalition of right wing crazies seized upon a few of her writings and used them as a cudgel to browbeat then-President Clinton to withdraw her nomination for Assistant Attorney General for Civil Rights. Last I heard, she's still alive, but the damage to her reputation was hardly negligible.

The black lawyer and activist Pauli Murray insisted in 1963 that none other than Alabama Governor George “Segregation Forever” Wallace be allowed to speak at Yale. She believed that the speech rights blacks had fought for so hard must be extended to people she found noxious, including on issues as personal to her as race


so, the argument here is that the rights that black people fought so hard for must be given for free to the racist pieces of #### who were on the losing side of that fight?

yeah, gtfoohwtbs.


There are few things more amusing, or sad, than seeing some self-righteous White Wokester play Blacker Than Thou with Pauli Murray. You should live a life one ten-thousandth as productive and important as hers. Maybe you should learn a few things about her before displaying your ignorance to the peanut gallery.

and fun fact:
speaking at yale is a privilege, not a ####### right.


Which completely misses the point. Of course it was (and is) a privilege for anyone to speak at Yale, not a right. Murray was arguing that Yale should extend Wallace that privilege. She was speaking as a well-known civil rights advocate for a principle she held dear.

Oh, and to spare you the trouble, here are a few relevant paragraphs about Pauli Murray from that above link. It's never to late to learn:
Pauli Murray lived one of the most remarkable lives of the twentieth century. She was the first Black person to earn a JSD (Doctor of the Science of Law) degree from Yale Law School, a founder of the National Organization for Women and the first Black woman to be ordained an Episcopal priest.

Pauli Murray’s legal arguments and interpretation of the US Constitution were winning strategies for public school desegregation, women’s rights in the workplace, and an extension of rights to LGBTQ+ people based on Title VII of the 1964 Civil Rights Act.

Pauli Murray crafted a broad vision of justice, equity, and human rights using words as her primary tool in the fight for liberation. Pauli resisted categories of race, class, gender, and sexual orientation, wrestling with issues raised by her own racial identity, economic struggles, and sexual and gender identity. She aspired to an integrated body, mind, and spirit that aligned with a holistic sense of self.

   146. . . . . . . Posted: August 21, 2021 at 09:37 AM (#6035458)
Stiggles is one of the most virulently intolerant people I’ve ever encountered on the internet, so it’s not surprising he’s putting on a performance here.
   147. 57i66135 is a hard word for me. Posted: August 21, 2021 at 11:46 AM (#6035460)
There are few things more amusing, or sad, than seeing some self-righteous White Wokester play Blacker Than Thou with Pauli Murray.

oh, i think i see where you've gone off the rails. i'm not some self-righteous white wokester fighting for black people; i'm a gay person fighting for myself.

that's not usually a meaningful distinction, because civil rights interests tend to align with one another. however, if you think what i'm saying is disingenuous because i'm not black, i will take this opportunity to politely remind you that this is not a ####### game to me, and i am not playing at anything.
Which completely misses the point. Of course it was (and is) a privilege for anyone to speak at Yale, not a right. Murray was arguing that Yale should extend Wallace that privilege. She was speaking as a well-known civil rights advocate for a principle she held dear.

despite being a well known civil rights advocate, she was not an infallible deity, and so regardless of her cv, she happens to be on the wrong side of this issue*.


*through no fault of her own, btw. from what i can tell, she said something 60 years ago, about a specific person, at a specific place where she had personal connections. that her narrow argument in that situation is being extrapolated now, 40 years after her death, as a blanket endorsement for allowing shitty people to say shitty things in public without consequence is pretty crass, imo. and that her name and resume is being thrown around as a cudgel to silence people on the right side of this issue is pretty craven, imo. and again, none of that is her fault.
   148. 57i66135 is a hard word for me. Posted: August 21, 2021 at 11:53 AM (#6035461)
Lovely strawman. Did I use those three cases as examples of what I've been talking about? Do you think that every case is as cut and dried as Cuomo's?

cuomo's case was not cut and dry; allegations have been coming at him for years, but until now, he'd been able to trump his way through it.

i guess i just don't know what you meant by "demanding maximum penalties for every perceived slight".



Stiggles is one of the most virulently intolerant people I’ve ever encountered on the internet
you're ####### right, but here's a question for you, since i am so obviously and virulently intolerant:

what exactly do you think i'm intolerant of?

   149. ERROR---Jolly Old St. Nick Posted: August 21, 2021 at 12:11 PM (#6035464)
despite being a well known civil rights advocate, she was not an infallible deity, and so regardless of her cv, she happens to be on the wrong side of this issue*.

*through no fault of her own, btw. from what i can tell,


Well, I'm glad you're at least letting Pauli Murray off the hook with that "through no fault of her own" qualification. I'm sure she'll be grateful.

But nobody's trying to "silence" anyone from speaking out about anything. What some of us object to is the attempt by ideologues to silence their opponents, regardless of context.** The right wing tries to silence teachers from teaching honest history in schools, by pretending that it's all a big "Critical Race Theory" plot to stigmatize White people. And the ultra-wokesters have repeatedly tried to have people fired from their jobs for offenses that range from the truly firingworthy (Cuomo) to the truly absurd (the "offense" of assigning iconic literary works that use offensive language).

The right wing crazies are all too familiar. They occupied the White House for four long years, they're as loud as ever today, and they should be fought at every turn. But they've got one big thing in common with the ultra-wokesters: They both think that God died and appointed them, and them alone, the Boss of Acceptable Expression.

** Context is everything. Having Facebook or Twitter ban people like Trump for repeatedly posting racist themes and dangerous misinformation is one thing. Trying to intimidate teachers or editors into silencing even the slightest deviation from Correct Thought is another. The failure to recognize this distinction is at the heart of what we're arguing about.
   150. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: August 21, 2021 at 12:14 PM (#6035465)
Or actually, I don't think "woke racism" even qualifies as an ideology. It's more a system of social manners - how you're expected to act in public, the airs you're supposed to put on for the world, etc. It's more akin to "don't wear white after Labor Day" than "workers of the world unite!" (ideology) or "God told me to kill the nonbelievers" (fundamentalist religion).

https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2015/11/the-new-intolerance-of-student-activism-at-yale/414810/

https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/tag/fox-news?source=/bonfire-of-the-academies-two-professors-on-how-leftist-intolerance-is-killing-higher-education/article/2642973

Nice manners these woke Red Guards are showing.

When avowedly liberal professors are physically confronted and threatened and lose their jobs for daring to disagree with the latest insanity spewed by the mob, we're very close "kill the heretics territory".

   151. 57i66135 is a hard word for me. Posted: August 21, 2021 at 12:54 PM (#6035466)
What some of us object to is the attempt by ideologues to silence their opponents, regardless of context
...
Context is everything. Having Facebook or Twitter ban people like Trump for repeatedly posting racist themes and dangerous misinformation is one thing. Trying to intimidate teachers or editors into silencing even the slightest deviation from Correct Thought is another. The failure to recognize this distinction is at the heart of what we're arguing about.
ultra-wokesters have repeatedly tried to have people fired from their jobs for offenses that range from the truly firingworthy (Cuomo) to the truly absurd (the "offense" of assigning iconic literary works that use offensive language).

i don't know what you're talking about, or how it's relevant here. jack morris is a public figure, not some random teacher who told kids to read the turner diaries.

xkcd

When avowedly liberal professors are physically confronted and threatened and lose their jobs for daring to disagree with the latest insanity spewed by the mob, we're very close "kill the heretics territory".
barely 6 months ago, an actually armed republican mob actually swarmed the capitol, with the actually stated intention of actually assassinating the actual republican vice-president.

"kill the heretics" indeed, don quixote.
   152. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: August 21, 2021 at 12:59 PM (#6035468)
barely 6 months ago, an actually armed republican mob actually swarmed the capitol, with the actually stated intention of actually assassinating the actual republican vice-president.


And everyone on the right said they should be arrested and go to jail, and they were. Too bad the left didn't react the same way to people who burned down police stations, and staged armed takeovers of sections of cities, while actually murdering people.

The student Red Guards were coddled and thanked by the Administration of their colleges, and suffered zero consequences.
   153. 57i66135 is a hard word for me. Posted: August 21, 2021 at 01:07 PM (#6035469)
the left didn't react the same way to people who burned down police stations

fun fact:
A rightwing extremist boasted of driving from Texas to Minneapolis to help set fire to a police precinct during the George Floyd protests, federal prosecutors said.

   154. sunday silence (again) Posted: August 21, 2021 at 01:08 PM (#6035470)
who are you quoting "on the right?"
   155. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: August 21, 2021 at 01:13 PM (#6035472)
A rightwing extremist boasted of driving from Texas to Minneapolis to help set fire to a police precinct during the George Floyd protests, federal prosecutors said.

There were a lot of people breaking into that station, but pick any of the other things they burned down, if you prefer.
   156. Starring Bradley Scotchman as RMc Posted: August 21, 2021 at 02:05 PM (#6035475)
I'm really glad I can't read 57i's comments. Seeing them quoted is bad enough.

andrew cuomo resigned from his governorship; he was not dragged into the street and beaten to death by joe pesci.

Now this woulda been awesome. (Actually, don't have Pesci do it, but one of the relatives of the people who died in NY nursing homes from COVID. A dish best served cold.)
   157. JJ1986 Posted: August 21, 2021 at 02:24 PM (#6035477)
And everyone on the right said they should be arrested and go to jail, and they were.
This is a bad joke.
   158. sunday silence (again) Posted: August 21, 2021 at 06:03 PM (#6035490)
just for the record; exactly how many Fox pundits actually said jan6 rioters should go to jail?

Like anybody can find anyone on any side of an argument who said something or other. But Fox news has got to be the litmus test for mainstream right wing thought. That's got to be about as close as any barometer could be of what "the right" has said on the matter.
   159. rr would lock Shaq's a$$ up Posted: August 21, 2021 at 06:28 PM (#6035493)
158

I follow some of that stuff (know a dude who is a Qanon researcher) and I have not seen Carlson or Hannity, or of course Trump, saying definitively that insurrectionists should be punished, other than saying that the law has been too harsh on them in comparison to BLM protesters.

In short, (Trump) now seems to be demanding the release of the various insurrectionists facing charges for storming the Capitol on January 6th. “How come so many people are still in jail over Jan. 6?” he asked the crowd.


https://talkingpointsmemo.com/edblog/trump-demanding-release-of-jan-6-insurrectionists


And even if they did say it, it was no doubt loaded with caveats and qualifiers, and I have actually seen plenty of those. snapper drops the civil mask and flies his freak flag sometimes; his last few posts in this thread is one of those times.
   160. ERROR---Jolly Old St. Nick Posted: August 21, 2021 at 06:42 PM (#6035494)
But when someone like McWhorter or Maher cites countless valid examples of the problems with Wokespeak, they get simplistically labeled "right wing", as if they were nothing but a variant of crackpot Trump apologists like Carlson or Hannity.

Obviously the problem of deliberate disinformation and misinformation on the Right, backed by one of our two major political parties and engaging in increasingly violent rhetoric, poses a much greater threat than a collection of Holier-than-Thou types on social media and at universities, but that doesn't mean that the latter groups aren't also doing their best to try to keep public discussion confined within strictly prescribed limits of Permissibility.
   161. Starring Bradley Scotchman as RMc Posted: August 21, 2021 at 07:06 PM (#6035495)
Obviously the problem of deliberate disinformation and misinformation on the Right, backed by one of our two major political parties and engaging in increasingly violent rhetoric, poses a much greater threat

You misspelled "Left".

Ahh, what's the use? Same screen, different movies.
   162. ERROR---Jolly Old St. Nick Posted: August 21, 2021 at 08:09 PM (#6035501)
You misspelled "Left".

Right, those rioters who stormed the Capitol were just Antifa agents in disguise, it's the Democrats rather than Trump who are trying to overturn elections, and we've always been at war with Eastasia.
   163. Hombre Brotani Posted: August 21, 2021 at 11:50 PM (#6035528)
Just a reminder: This thread started because Jack Morris decided a mocking Asian stereotype voice was cool to do on television. Predictably, it's gone from that to, "No, it is YOU who is the true racist!"
   164. Brian C Posted: August 22, 2021 at 12:40 AM (#6035530)
Nice manners these woke Red Guards are showing.

When avowedly liberal professors are physically confronted and threatened and lose their jobs for daring to disagree with the latest insanity spewed by the mob, we're very close "kill the heretics territory".

I mean, come on, dude. Both of those links are to stories that are years old. That really the best you can do?

Seems like we're still the exact same amount of "very close" to kill the heretics territory that we were years back when these stories originally made the rounds - or for that matter, that we were in the 1980/90s, when railing against "political correctness" first started seriously gaining steam. And probably years before that when all of the sudden it became rude to defend segregation.

I guess wokeist takeovers manifest in the form of Zeno's paradox - no matter how close we get to their imminent happening, we still never get closer than halfway there.
   165. Brian C Posted: August 22, 2021 at 12:49 AM (#6035531)
Just a reminder: This thread started because Jack Morris decided a mocking Asian stereotype voice was cool to do on television. Predictably, it's gone from that to, "No, it is YOU who is the true racist!"

In a way, this seems appropriate - a central tenet of self-described "antiracist" whites is that we are all, in fact, racist.
   166. ERROR---Jolly Old St. Nick Posted: August 22, 2021 at 09:22 AM (#6035539)
I mean, come on, dude. Both of those links are to stories that are years old. That really the best you can do?

I can't speak for snapper, whom I agree with about once a year, but there are plenty of more recent examples of Wokesterism run amok, among them two cases at the NY Times, one involving their Op-Ed Department and the other the forced resignation of one of their long time Science reporters.
   167. simon bedford Posted: August 22, 2021 at 10:26 AM (#6035543)
A controversial op-ed writer came under attack for repeating several falsehoods and was not supported at all by her coworkers and then resigns , claiming wokeness in the times as the reason, while others at the meeting in question said no such thing occurred hardly seems like wokeness run amok but a controversial figure not getting the support she felt entitled too.
A half dozen people complaining about a writer using a racist slur in 2019 and the story and outrage kept growing because the times reported never apologized for it until he fell on is sword seems more like a case of being called in for accountability than anything else. even the writer in question admitted dropping the n bomb was wrong.
   168. Starring Bradley Scotchman as RMc Posted: August 22, 2021 at 10:36 AM (#6035544)
those rioters who stormed the Capitol were just Antifa agents in disguise

Nahh. If it really was Antifa, then (a) the Capitol would've been burned to the ground and (b) the rioters would've gotten much more favourable press coverage.

To be clear: the Jan 6 rioters were morons who belong in jail, period. But calling it an "insurrection" is nutty, because these idiots couldn't organize a two-car parade, let alone the overthrow of the federal government. And it was nothing compared to the night-after-night outrages perpetuated by the (ahem) "peaceful protesters". (Hell, in terms of property damage and injuries, the Capitol probably wasn't even the worst riot on January 6th itself!)

a central tenet of self-described "antiracist" whites is that we are all, in fact, racist.

Except the "anti-racists", of course. Just like Antifa are the only true "anti-fascists".
   169. simon bedford Posted: August 22, 2021 at 10:39 AM (#6035545)
because people are incapable of doing what they were attempting to do does not mean an attempt was not made.
   170. ERROR---Jolly Old St. Nick Posted: August 22, 2021 at 10:45 AM (#6035546)
A controversial op-ed writer came under attack for repeating several falsehoods and was not supported at all by her coworkers and then resigns , claiming wokeness in the times as the reason, while others at the meeting in question said no such thing occurred hardly seems like wokeness run amok but a controversial figure not getting the support she felt entitled too.

First, AFAIC Bari Weiss never should've resigned. She should have stayed at her job and kept fighting for her views. But the substantive points she raised in her resignation letter still hold. One example:
Op-eds that would have easily been published just two years ago would now get an editor or a writer in serious trouble, if not fired. If a piece is perceived as likely to inspire backlash internally or on social media, the editor or writer avoids pitching it. If she feels strongly enough to suggest it, she is quickly steered to safer ground. And if, every now and then, she succeeds in getting a piece published that does not explicitly promote progressive causes, it happens only after every line is carefully massaged, negotiated and caveated.

It took the paper two days and two jobs to say that the Tom Cotton op-ed “fell short of our standards.” We attached an editor’s note on a travel story about Jaffa shortly after it was published because it “failed to touch on important aspects of Jaffa’s makeup and its history.” But there is still none appended to Cheryl Strayed’s fawning interview with the writer Alice Walker, a proud anti-Semite who believes in lizard Illuminati.

Oh, and here's Alice Walker's defense of her recommendation of a book that claims, among other things, that Holocaust denial should be taught in schools.
   171. ERROR---Jolly Old St. Nick Posted: August 22, 2021 at 10:55 AM (#6035548)
those rioters who stormed the Capitol were just Antifa agents in disguise

Nahh. If it really was Antifa, then (a) the Capitol would've been burned to the ground and (b) the rioters would've gotten much more favourable press coverage.


Any more fantasies you feel like promoting? Just where and when did Antifa rioters---as opposed to peaceful BLM protests---get "favourable" press coverage?

To be clear: the Jan 6 rioters were morons who belong in jail, period. But calling it an "insurrection" is nutty, because these idiots couldn't organize a two-car parade, let alone the overthrow of the federal government.

Well, they sure had everyone in the Capitol building ducking for cover, and since when is a failed attempt at murder not considered the moral equivalent of a successfully executed murder?

And it was nothing compared to the night-after-night outrages perpetuated by the (ahem) "peaceful protesters". (Hell, in terms of property damage and injuries, the Capitol probably wasn't even the worst riot on January 6th itself!)

Name one Democratic officeholder or any prominent liberal who's defended the Antifa riots in the same way that Trump and many GOP congressmen have tried to cast the 1/6 rioters as "patriots". Christ, some of them, including Trump himself, are actually trying to paint Ashli Babbitt as some kind of a martyr!
   172. simon bedford Posted: August 22, 2021 at 10:56 AM (#6035549)
she resigned because she made quite a few mistakes and nobody would support her and she felt that she was entitled to their support .times employees pointed out that she could not publish controversial views and expect silence as the response nor could she print falsehoods and not expect to be called on it. the times did not fire her she gave up because the times isnt the WSJ where her views wouldnt raise many eyebrows. it was her choice and her feeling that her side of the aisle is not represented seems strange as she was given an outlet and gave up and left when confronted with public blowback. seems like she is like many only interested in freedom of speech that supports her views. still not seeing the "wokeness" factor you spoke of at play here.
   173. ERROR---Jolly Old St. Nick Posted: August 22, 2021 at 11:52 AM (#6035553)
she resigned because she made quite a few mistakes and nobody would support her and she felt that she was entitled to their support .times employees pointed out that she could not publish controversial views and expect silence as the response nor could she print falsehoods and not expect to be called on it. the times did not fire her she gave up because the times isnt the WSJ where her views wouldnt raise many eyebrows. it was her choice and her feeling that her side of the aisle is not represented seems strange as she was given an outlet and gave up and left when confronted with public blowback. seems like she is like many only interested in freedom of speech that supports her views. still not seeing the "wokeness" factor you spoke of at play here

As I said, I think Weiss should've stuck around and forced the Times to fire her. And personally I wouldn't have published that piece by Tom Cotton, although it was certainly representative of a POV that's sadly all too prevalent among our population. But criticizing the decision to publish that column is one thing; calling on the editor who approved it to be fired, which is what the Twitterverse and many staff members were doing, is another matter altogether.

BTW do you think that the editor who approved Alice Walker's interview should've also been forced out for not pointing out in an editor's note that Walker was promoting a fan of The Protocols of Zion?

Is this your idea of appropriate "blowback"?
My own forays into Wrongthink have made me the subject of constant bullying by colleagues who disagree with my views. They have called me a Nazi and a racist; I have learned to brush off comments about how I’m “writing about the Jews again.” Several colleagues perceived to be friendly with me were badgered by coworkers. My work and my character are openly demeaned on company-wide Slack channels where masthead editors regularly weigh in. There, some coworkers insist I need to be rooted out if this company is to be a truly “inclusive” one, while others post ax emojis next to my name. Still other New York Times employees publicly smear me as a liar and a bigot on Twitter with no fear that harassing me will be met with appropriate action. They never are.

The idea that Weiss was "only interested in freedom of speech that supports her views" is just crazy. Are you completely unacquainted with the Op-Ed columns that the Times runs on a regular basis? And what "falsehoods" are you talking about?
   174. 57i66135 is a hard word for me. Posted: August 22, 2021 at 12:06 PM (#6035554)
I can't speak for snapper, whom I agree with about once a year, but there are plenty of more recent examples of Wokesterism run amok, among them two cases at the NY Times, one involving their Op-Ed Department and the other the forced resignation of one of their long time Science reporters.

did "wokesterism" kill your parents? because this is a really ####### weird thing to be complaining about for days on end, unless you're the count of monte ####### cristo.
   175. 57i66135 is a hard word for me. Posted: August 22, 2021 at 12:16 PM (#6035555)
BTW do you think that the editor who approved Alice Walker's interview should've also been forced out for not pointing out in an editor's note that Walker was promoting a fan of The Protocols of Zion?
i'm sorry, we're you not just complaining about "wokesterism" run amok and drowning out all other viewpoints? because this thing you just said would seem to invalidate that entire argument... unless you also believe "wokesterism" is implicitly anti-semetic. and if you do believe that to be the case, it's odd that you wouldn't start by saying it, because it's a much stronger argument for you than waving around bari weiss's crocodile tears.
   176. simon bedford Posted: August 22, 2021 at 12:21 PM (#6035557)
yeah blowback on twitter like blowback here tends not to be the most elevated of forums, you enter into it at your own risk I suppose, all her faults and misinformation was magnified and distorted through the fun house mirror that is the twitterverse but who doesnt expect that at this point?
As for Alice Walker and her Ikle supporting nonsense, not sure what you are looking for here? they caught and squashed a right wing politician who was spreading lies and half truths but missed Walker so this is somehow an example of their wokeness? they should have buried both stories or lambasted Walker and not done a follow up puff piece last year.
as for Weiss's self serving statements about how she perceives the way she was treated after kicking a few hornets nests? I am sorry I do not feel that carries much weight at all. those around her tell a different story and the truth is probably much closer to "you reap what you sow" than " the mob doesnt like my freedom".
   177. 57i66135 is a hard word for me. Posted: August 22, 2021 at 12:30 PM (#6035558)
I wouldn't have published that piece by Tom Cotton, although it was certainly representative of a POV that's sadly all too prevalent among our population. But criticizing the decision to publish that column is one thing; calling on the editor who approved it to be fired, which is what the Twitterverse and many staff members were doing, is another matter altogether.

counterpoint:

james bennett was bad at his job for a long time, and he probably should have been fired long before he chose to greenlight tom cotton's kampf.
   178. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: August 22, 2021 at 12:41 PM (#6035559)
To be clear: the Jan 6 rioters were morons who belong in jail, period. But calling it an "insurrection" is nutty, because these idiots couldn't organize a two-car parade, let alone the overthrow of the federal government. And it was nothing compared to the night-after-night outrages perpetuated by the (ahem) "peaceful protesters". (Hell, in terms of property damage and injuries, the Capitol probably wasn't even the worst riot on January 6th itself!)


In case some of you peoples's preferred media buried this too deep.

fbi-finds-scant-evidence-us-capitol-attack-was-coordinated-sources-2021-08-20/

The FBI has found scant evidence that the Jan. 6 attack on the U.S. Capitol was the result of an organized plot to overturn the presidential election result, according to four current and former law enforcement officials.

Though federal officials have arrested more than 570 alleged participants, the FBI at this point believes the violence was not centrally coordinated by far-right groups or prominent supporters of then-President Donald Trump, according to the sources, who have been either directly involved in or briefed regularly on the wide-ranging investigations.

"Ninety to ninety-five percent of these are one-off cases," said a former senior law enforcement official with knowledge of the investigation. "Then you have five percent, maybe, of these militia groups that were more closely organized. But there was no grand scheme with Roger Stone and Alex Jones and all of these people to storm the Capitol and take hostages."
   179. simon bedford Posted: August 22, 2021 at 12:45 PM (#6035560)
Falsehoods she wrote : she picked a rather bizarre habit of quoting from a twitter account that was a well known satire account for one. the entirety of her piece on the "dark web", unless it was a comedy piece I suppose. there is plenty more, she is quite well known for not really doing her research. "immigrants get the job done" describing a us olympian who was not in fact an immigrant. the list goes on and on.
   180. ERROR---Jolly Old St. Nick Posted: August 22, 2021 at 12:53 PM (#6035561)
i'm sorry, we're you not just complaining about "wokesterism" run amok and drowning out all other viewpoints? because this thing you just said would seem to invalidate that entire argument... unless you also believe "wokesterism" is implicitly anti-semetic. and if you do believe that to be the case, it's odd that you wouldn't start by saying it, because it's a much stronger argument for you than waving around bari weiss's crocodile tears.

I guess I'm not getting my point across, but my complaint about Wokesterism boils down to one thing and one thing alone: The idea that people should lose their jobs and / or their reputations on the basis of complaints from the Twitterverse and / or lower level employees who find "offense" in pretty much anything. The idea that people should be permanently branded by their worst moments, even if those moments were many years ago.

Of course Wokesterism isn't anti-semitic per se, although it's not an uncommon trait among them.** See Alice Walker's interview. But among The Woke I'll guarantee you'll get a lot more rage directed against a pathetic assclown like Jack Morris than you will against many hardcore anti-semites, at least if those anti-semites are known to be on The Left. (Again, see Alice Walker.)

** And no, criticizing Israel's policies towards the Palestinians isn't anti-semitic. Ilhan Omar and AOC aren't anti-semitic. Bari Weiss herself has spoken out against the settlements, as have sizable percentages of Israelis and other Jews. It's when you start promoting anti-semitic themes like "international bankers", and talking about "Jews" as if they're a monolith that you run into problems.

----------------------

As for Alice Walker and her Ikle supporting nonsense, not sure what you are looking for here? they caught and squashed a right wing politician who was spreading lies and half truths but missed Walker so this is somehow an example of their wokeness?

What else would you call it? they should have buried both stories or lambasted Walker and not done a follow up puff piece last year.

Personally I would've fact-checked and annotated the Cotton op-ed before running it, and if that didn't meet with Cotton's approval, I would've simply not published it.

Same thing for Walker: I would've made a parenthetical note of David Icke's crackpot anti-semitic views, and if that didn't meet with Walker's approval, I would've likewise not published it. In both cases, I would leave it up to disinformation spreader to accept fact-checking or reject it.
   181. Booey Posted: August 22, 2021 at 12:59 PM (#6035562)
Come on, guys. Be fair. If you don't like the Bari Weiss example, it's not hard to come up with a bunch of better ones instead. What do you all think of the director of the opening ceremonies of the Olympics being ousted because of a Holocaust joke he made as a comedian...in 1998? Or the Olympic composer who was canned because of a 1994 interview he gave where he admitted to bullying classmates as a child (he's 52 now; his childhood was 40 years ago)? What about the editor of Teen Vogue magazine who was let go because of insensitive tweets she sent ten years ago when she was in High School (and which she'd already apologized for a few years earlier)? Or the Boeing executive who was pressured to resign because of a sexist article he'd written as a young man...in 1987? This is crazy. Are people going to have to start listing Twitter history, jokes we made 20+ years ago, and our childhood mistakes on job applications from now on alongside the usual "Have you ever been convicted of a crime?" Holding people accountable for what they say NOW is a good thing; retroactively holding the past to modern standards and making everything that happened in someone's entire life fair game for punishment today is just unfair and hypocritical (let's be honest; everyone who was cheering the above oustings was no doubt going through their own Twitter history and deleting a bunch of old posts). No one is perfect, and none of us are born with fully formed opinions on all matters. We all said stupid sh!t decades ago. Noted "right winger" Barack Obama has criticized wokeism and cancel culture on more than one occasion (he did a good interview in Oct 2019 y'all should look up if you haven't already). And saying "But the other side is worse!" - while true - is NOT a valid defense against any of this nonsense. That's whataboutism, plain and simple.

Commonly hearing "But...Jan 6th!" as a response to all complaints about excessive wokeness is starting to remind me a lot of the "But...9/11!" comments we'd get 15-20 years ago in response to all sorts of atrocities. Islamophobia? But...9/11! The bungled war? But...9/11! The abhorrent human rights violations at Abu Ghraib? But...9/11! The insurrection was indefensible and everyone involved belongs in jail, full stop. But it also doesn't justify any and all examples of bullying from the other side.
   182. ERROR---Jolly Old St. Nick Posted: August 22, 2021 at 01:07 PM (#6035563)
In case some of you peoples's preferred media buried this too deep.
The FBI has found scant evidence that the Jan. 6 attack on the U.S. Capitol was the result of an organized plot to overturn the presidential election result, according to four current and former law enforcement officials.

Though federal officials have arrested more than 570 alleged participants, the FBI at this point believes the violence was not centrally coordinated by far-right groups or prominent supporters of then-President Donald Trump, according to the sources, who have been either directly involved in or briefed regularly on the wide-ranging investigations.

"Ninety to ninety-five percent of these are one-off cases," said a former senior law enforcement official with knowledge of the investigation. "Then you have five percent, maybe, of these militia groups that were more closely organized. But there was no grand scheme with Roger Stone and Alex Jones and all of these people to storm the Capitol and take hostages."


Great, so I guess people who storm the Capitol and try to assault policemen and congressmen are okay as long as they weren't necessarily influenced by the ones who were trying to stage a more organized insurrection. Is that also your take on urban rioters who show up just to enjoy the fun of rioting and looting, armed with a sense of grievance?

--------------------

Come on, guys. Be fair. If you don't like the Bari Weiss example, it's not hard to come up with a bunch of better ones instead. What do you all think of the director of the opening ceremonies of the Olympics being ousted because of a Holocaust joke he made as a comedian...in 1998? Or the Olympic composer who was canned because of a 1994 interview he gave where he admitted to bullying classmates as a child (he's 52 now; his childhood was 40 years ago)? What about the editor of Teen Vogue magazine who was let go because of insensitive tweets she sent ten years ago when she was in High School (and which she'd already apologized for a few years earlier)? Or the Boeing executive who was pressured to resign because of a sexist article he'd written as a young man...in 1987? This is crazy. Are people going to have to start listing Twitter history, jokes we made 20+ years ago, and our childhood mistakes on job applications from now on alongside the usual "Have you ever been convicted of a crime?" Holding people accountable for what they say NOW is a good thing; retroactively holding the past to modern standards and making everything that happened in someone's entire life fair game for punishment today is just unfair and hypocritical (let's be honest; everyone who was cheering the above oustings was no doubt going through their own Twitter history and deleting a bunch of old posts). No one is perfect, and none of us are born with fully formed opinions on all matters. We all said stupid sh!t decades ago. Noted "right winger" Barack Obama has criticized wokeism and cancel culture on more than one occasion (he did a good interview in Oct 2019 y'all should look up if you haven't already). And saying "But the other side is worse!" - while true - is NOT a valid defense against any of this nonsense. That's whataboutism, plain and simple.

Thank you, Booey. Very well expressed. And I'm glad you mentioned Obama's take, which was nothing but common sense.
   183. sunday silence (again) Posted: August 22, 2021 at 01:35 PM (#6035567)
Here's two quotes from Snapper about an hour apart:


We (Western democratic nations) are probably the least racist society in the history of mankind.



When avowedly liberal professors are physically confronted and threatened and lose their jobs for daring to disagree with the latest insanity spewed by the mob, we're very close "kill the heretics territory".


Do you even read what you write? Cause it doesnt make any sense. HOw is it possible for those two statements to both be true at the same time? Like people are so kind and non racist and yet at the same we as a society are so close to just lynching people we dont like?

Right? This is just complete hyperbole on your part.
   184. 57i66135 is a hard word for me. Posted: August 22, 2021 at 01:35 PM (#6035568)
And no, criticizing Israel's policies towards the Palestinians isn't anti-semitic. Ilhan Omar and AOC aren't anti-semitic.

i'm reasonably sure that the majority of people who accuse other people of being anti-semetic would disagree with both of those statements.
Come on, guys. Be fair. If you don't like the Bari Weiss example, it's not hard to come up with a bunch of better ones instead. What do you all think of the director of the opening ceremonies of the Olympics being ousted because of a Holocaust joke he made as a comedian...in 1998? Or the Olympic composer who was canned because of a 1994 interview he gave where he admitted to bullying classmates as a child (he's 52 now; his childhood was 40 years ago)? What about the editor of Teen Vogue magazine who was let go because of insensitive tweets she sent ten years ago when she was in High School (and which she'd already apologized for a few years earlier)? Or the Boeing executive who was pressured to resign because of a sexist article he'd written as a young man...in 1987? This is crazy. Are people going to have to start listing Twitter history, jokes we made 20+ years ago, and our childhood mistakes on job applications from now on alongside the usual "Have you ever been convicted of a crime?" Holding people accountable for what they say NOW is a good thing; retroactively holding the past to modern standards and making everything that happened in someone's entire life fair game for punishment today is just unfair and hypocritical (let's be honest; everyone who was cheering the above oustings was no doubt going through their own Twitter history and deleting a bunch of old posts). No one is perfect, and none of us are born with fully formed opinions on all matters. We all said stupid sh!t decades ago. Noted "right winger" Barack Obama has criticized wokeism and cancel culture on more than one occasion (he did a good interview in Oct 2019 y'all should look up if you haven't already). And saying "But the other side is worse!" - while true - is NOT a valid defense against any of this nonsense. That's whataboutism, plain and simple.

i think you lose the nuance in each situation by lumping a bunch of them together and saying "BOOOOOO WOOOKE. BAAADD." because like weiss, there are (almost always) additional circumstances that are relevant to the situation, and that context can get lost in the retellings of each story. especially when people like weiss stand to benefit from that context being lost.

andy pettite was elected to the hall of fame despite testing positive and being suspended for PEDs, while players who never tested positive for PEDs are being kept out of the hall of fame because of them. that is an objectively ridiculous state of affairs, and it would be completely incomprehensible if you're not aware of the context around it. [ed: in light of recent events, i will have to resign my position, effective immediately; hat tip to [186]]
Commonly hearing "But...Jan 6th!" as a response to all complaints about excessive wokeness is starting to remind me a lot of the "But...9/11!" comments we'd get 15-20 years ago in response to all sorts of atrocities. Islamophobia? But...9/11! The bungled war? But...9/11! The abhorrent human rights violations at Abu Ghraib? But...9/11! The insurrection was indefensible and everyone involved belongs in jail, full stop. But it also doesn't justify any and all examples of bullying from the other side.
i was the one who brought this up, so i'll take a moment to defend myself here.

when a republican operative comes around and says 'liberals are entering kill the heretics territory', invoking january 6th is a reasonable rebuttal, on account of the fact that an armed republican mob literally invaded the capital to literally kill the heretics.
   185. Booey Posted: August 22, 2021 at 01:43 PM (#6035569)
Stiggles - Did any of the 4 examples I gave in #181 deserve to be fired and/or pressured to resign? Yes or no?
   186. What did Billy Ripken have against ElRoy Face? Posted: August 22, 2021 at 01:43 PM (#6035570)
andy pettite was elected to the hall of fame despite testing positive and being suspended for PEDs
Editor’s note: Andy Pettitte was not elected to the Hall of Fame.
   187. 57i66135 is a hard word for me. Posted: August 22, 2021 at 01:47 PM (#6035571)
Stiggles - Did any of the 4 examples I gave in #181 deserve to be fired and/or pressured to resign? Yes or no?

i'm going to be honest:

i don't care enough about this to bother looking into it.
   188. Booey Posted: August 22, 2021 at 01:48 PM (#6035572)
#186 - Not only that, he's not even close. He got 13.7% last election in his 3rd try.
   189. Booey Posted: August 22, 2021 at 01:49 PM (#6035573)
#187 - That's a big part of the problem. Lots of dolphins are being caught in the tuna nets of social justice and very few from the far left side seem to care. Ruining regular people's careers and reputations is seen as acceptable collateral damage, and it shouldn't be.
   190. 57i66135 is a hard word for me. Posted: August 22, 2021 at 01:53 PM (#6035574)
Editor’s note: Andy Pettitte was not elected to the Hall of Fame.
#186 - Not only that, he's not even close. He got 13.7% last election in his 3rd try.

i'm not sure what's more embarrassing:

A: being wrong.
B: being wrong about a baseball fact, on bbtf.
C: being wrong about something that was completely superfluous to the overall point i was attempting to make.
   191. 57i66135 is a hard word for me. Posted: August 22, 2021 at 01:59 PM (#6035575)
#187 - That's a big part of the problem. Lots of dolphins are being caught in the tuna nets of social justice and very few from the far left side seem to care. Ruining innocent people's careers and reputations is seen as acceptable collateral damage, and it shouldn't be.
to the extent that this is actually a problem, it seems like a very parochial one.

there are issues that i care about because they matter, there are issues that i care about because they matter to me, and then there's this. this is about as important to me as lowering the corporate tax threshold for small businesses with more than 5000 employees.
   192. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: August 22, 2021 at 02:00 PM (#6035576)
Great, so I guess people who storm the Capitol and try to assault policemen and congressmen are okay as long as they weren't necessarily influenced by the ones who were trying to stage a more organized insurrection. Is that also your take on urban rioters who show up just to enjoy the fun of rioting and looting, armed with a sense of grievance?

No. I'm just saying it was a riot. The talk of "insurrection" should be permanently retired.

The rioters should, and will be punished. More of them will go to jail than for all the other riots in the last 18 months combined.
   193. 57i66135 is a hard word for me. Posted: August 22, 2021 at 02:08 PM (#6035577)
Are people going to have to start listing Twitter history, jokes we made 20+ years ago, and our childhood mistakes on job applications from now on alongside the usual "Have you ever been convicted of a crime?"
btw, fun fact:
Travelers are increasingly being denied entry to the United States as border officials hold them accountable for messages, images and video on their devices sent by other people.
...
Immigration officers at Boston Logan International Airport are said to have questioned Ismail Ajjawi, 17, for his religion and religious practices, he told the school newspaper The Harvard Crimson. The officers who searched his phone and computer reportedly took issue with his friends’ social media activity.

Ajjawi’s visa was canceled and he was summarily deported — for someone else’s views.
...
the Trump administration in June began to demand that foreigners who apply for U.S. visas disclose their social media handles and profiles. Some 15 million are expected to fall under the new rule.
   194. rr would lock Shaq's a$$ up Posted: August 22, 2021 at 02:33 PM (#6035580)
I guess I'm not getting my point across, but my complaint about Wokesterism boils down to one thing and one thing alone: The idea that people should lose their jobs and / or their reputations on the basis of complaints from the Twitterverse and / or lower level employees who find "offense" in pretty much anything. The idea that people should be permanently branded by their worst moments, even if those moments were many years ago.


People in certain situations are going to get their reputations hit by stuff they said on Social Media, even if it was a long time ago. Jobs? Like I have said the one or two other times that I have waded into the BTF morass the last 3 or 4 years, that is just the discretionary power of capitalism being used in a way that you personally don't like. If you want to do something about that, then make some proposals. As noted, there are probably in many cases other circumstances and behavioral patterns of which we are not aware. Calling it "Wokesterism" is just venting. McWhorter brings nothing to the table except complaint, faux-superiority and emotions. If you want to learn about antiracism and decide to what extent you agree and disagree with what it is actually about, then there is plenty of stuff to read that is far better than anything that McWhorter has written.

As to the insurrection/riot stuff, the Right Wing media, starting with FOX and on down through the fringier stuff like OAN, cut the Jan 6ers a lot of slack, blame Antifa, constantly cite the BLM riots etc. just like we are seeing the rightist guys here doing. CNN on through Daily Kos of course play it the exact other way, so whining about "press coverage" while simultaneously parroting a lot of it is dumb. The situations are not the same in a lot of ways, starting with the fact that the President of the United States told people (and told them again yesterday, in Alabama) that the election had been rigged, was being stolen from them in real time, that they "should walk down to the Capitol" and that he would be with them when they did, and that they would not "take back the country" with "weakness." Any discussion of it should, IMO, probably start there.
   195. simon bedford Posted: August 22, 2021 at 03:02 PM (#6035582)
Just want to go on record as saying if you are going to on record about "wokeism" and then provide two examples that have nothing to do with "wokeism" then my pointing out that you are wrong is not in anyway proving your side of the argument , nor is declaring it is "whataboutism" when you start your post with "well what about....".
a right wing journalist quitting because she was getting ripped apart in the twitterverse due to her own poorly researched posts is not wokeism nor is a writer being forced out after dropping the nbomb to a bunch of kids he was leading on an educational trip.
   196. simon bedford Posted: August 22, 2021 at 03:45 PM (#6035583)
keigo ormayada resigned from the olympics as musical supervisor, he was not canned.
the 1998 joke was pretty classless and he was called on to resign by tons of folks until the government stepped in and said he could not stay.
the teen vogue editor resigned and the boeing exec also resigned, its not like a crowd of folks were calling for their heads, in both their cases the companies involved decided that the views that were expressed reflected badly on the company. labeling these defensive actions "wokeism" seems like a ton of a stretch.
   197. ERROR---Jolly Old St. Nick Posted: August 22, 2021 at 03:45 PM (#6035584)
And no, criticizing Israel's policies towards the Palestinians isn't anti-semitic. Ilhan Omar and AOC aren't anti-semitic.

i'm reasonably sure that the majority of people who accuse other people of being anti-semetic would disagree with both of those statements.


Then your quarrel is with them, not with me. You may or may not have noticed that I've pushing back against slanders against Omar and AOC just as much as I've pushed back against left wing disinformation.

-------------------

People in certain situations are going to get their reputations hit by stuff they said on Social Media, even if it was a long time ago. Jobs? Like I have said the one or two other times that I have waded into the BTF morass the last 3 or 4 years, that is just the discretionary power of capitalism being used in a way that you personally don't like. If you want to do something about that, then make some proposals.

I've got nothing against "the discretionary power of capitalism" being used against people who actually deserve it. Banning Trump from social media is only the most outstanding example of this. People who get "cancelled" because of a single thing they may have said or done in years past, or who make a single lame joke on the air, don't deserve that sort of treatment. Of course this is a "personal" preference, but I'm willing to defend my position in both cases.

As for "proposals", read what I wrote about Cotton and Walker's writings in #180:
Personally I would've fact-checked and annotated the Cotton op-ed before running it, and if that didn't meet with Cotton's approval, I would've simply not published it.

Same thing for Walker: I would've made a parenthetical note of David Icke's crackpot anti-semitic views, and if that didn't meet with Walker's approval, I would've likewise not published it. In both cases, I would leave it up to disinformation spreader to accept fact-checking or reject it.

As noted, there are probably in many cases other circumstances and behavioral patterns of which we are not aware.

Maybe you could give us some examples of these "behavioral patterns", so that we can know what you're talking about.

Calling it "Wokesterism" is just venting. McWhorter brings nothing to the table except complaint, faux-superiority and emotions. If you want to learn about antiracism and decide to what extent you agree and disagree with what it is actually about, then there is plenty of stuff to read that is far better than anything that McWhorter has written.

Robin, I've got nearly a thousand books on African American history and literature that go back to the early 19th century and go up to today. I was a staff member of SNCC, got arrested half a dozen times in the early civil rights movement, participated in BLM protests, and maintain a Flicker album page on historical African American images. I've read extensively on anti-immigrant racism and have railed against it both here and on Discord. I don't need Robin DiAngelo or Ibram Kendi to tell me about something I've been aware of for about as long as you've been alive. All McWhorter's trying to do is to make the most elementary of distinctions between real racism and invented perceptions of it.

(And BTW this has nothing to do with "Critical Race Theory", which has as many variations as Joey Gallo has strikeouts. Some of its proponents are little more than race hustlers, but in real life most of what gets labeled "Critical Race Theory" by its opponents just comes down an honest dealing with structural racism from 1619 to 2021. Which means I pay a lot more attention to what McWhorter has to say about it than I do to the average conservative's take.)
   198. ERROR---Jolly Old St. Nick Posted: August 22, 2021 at 03:50 PM (#6035585)
a right wing journalist quitting because she was getting ripped apart in the twitterverse due to her own poorly researched posts is not wokeism nor is a writer being forced out after dropping the nbomb to a bunch of kids he was leading on an educational trip.

There's a word called "context" in the dictionary that you and some of your friends seem blissfully dismissive of, and it's at the heart of the valid complaints against the ultra-wokesters.

Again, for anyone who cares to read McNeil's side of that "dropping the nbomb" story, here it is again.
   199. simon bedford Posted: August 22, 2021 at 03:57 PM (#6035586)
Are you trying to argue he did not in fact drop the nbomb in front of a group of students who were on an educational trip? because you know he did do that, you know that he admitted publicly that there was no excuse for what he did , that he was wrong to have done so and should have apologized earlier.
so yeah context matters and you seem to be missing all of it here. and still none of it had to do with wokeism. and i dont think you are even trying to pretend it does at this point.
   200. Voodoo Posted: August 22, 2021 at 04:08 PM (#6035588)
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