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Tuesday, June 03, 2008

Jim Rice steps up to the plate once again

“I would love to be in the Hall of Fame,” Rice said. “But I think today’s players would probably say, ‘I’m playing for the Hall of Fame.’ But I say, ‘I played for the Boston Red Sox.’ I played for the game. In the back of my mind I wasn’t thinking about the Hall of Fame.”

...Rice also said that the sheer size of the MLB is a problem that weakens the teams within it, adding that just one member of Boston’s reigning World Series champions would replace a starter from the team that lost the Series in ‘75.

“The only one that would’ve made it, maybe (Jonathan) Papelbon,” Rice said. “Because we had Dick Drago out there, Papelbon has a little more velocity than him.”

Rice has been particularly unimpressed with current Boston left fielder Manny Ramirez.

“I’m tired of people saying, ‘Manny being Manny,’” Rice said. “It’s not like I’d take my 11-year old kid to go out and watch ‘Manny being Manny,’ that’s not baseball. (Sunday) he hit home run 501, but, even though he hit 501 they still almost lost the game. Did you see those two plays he made out in left field? Now, do you want your kid to be ‘Manny being Manny’ missing those balls?”

I gotta check to see if the Red Sox won on the day Rice hit his

501

..uhh…

401

.....uhh…301st HR.

Repoz Posted: June 03, 2008 at 09:55 AM | 54 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
  Tags: hall of fame, history, red sox

Reader Comments and Retorts

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Statements posted here are those of our readers and do not represent the BaseballThinkFactory. Names are provided by the poster and are not verified. We ask that posters follow our submission policy. Please report any inappropriate comments.

   1. Gonfalon Bubble Posted: June 03, 2008 at 10:58 AM (#2803993)
It's precious that Jim thinks that Manny wouldn't have been an upgrade.

I'd think that Ortiz, Lowell, Beckett and Pedroia might be able to sneak in, too. Yaz 'n Youk is the most interesting one.
   2. Gotham Dave Posted: June 03, 2008 at 11:20 AM (#2803994)
Wow, what a delusional jackass.
   3. bunyon Posted: June 03, 2008 at 11:47 AM (#2803999)
What an a$$hole.
   4. t ball Posted: June 03, 2008 at 11:55 AM (#2804003)
Give me a break. He hints that today's players are selfish, somehow missing the irony of saying that in the midst of a completely self-serving screed.
   5. Gonfalon Bubble Posted: June 03, 2008 at 12:11 PM (#2804008)
“I’m tired of people saying, ‘Manny being Manny,’” Rice said. “It’s not like I’d take my 11-year old kid to go out and watch ‘Manny being Manny,’ that’s not baseball.

I wonder if he'll be taking his 22-year-old kid out to upstate New York to watch Manny Being First Ballot?
   6. Slinger Francisco Barrios (Dr. Memory) Posted: June 03, 2008 at 12:30 PM (#2804012)
I wonder what prrovoked this out of Rice?

Hey, it worked for Gossage.
   7. Repoz Posted: June 03, 2008 at 12:35 PM (#2804013)
It looks like the Red Sox did lose on the day Jim Rice hit his 301st HR.

Box Score.

Plus Jim being Jim...he flied out to end the 7-4 game with the two runners on base...in a wacky DP setting.
   8. csi: bedford falls Posted: June 03, 2008 at 12:39 PM (#2804016)
He's tired of people saying stuff? He's just tired. Way to shoot your 2.8% in the mouth, Jimbo. Go throw down another Paxiltini and shut your poophole. My first glove was a Jim Rice model Rawlings. Think I'll go chop off my hand.
   9. Suff Posted: June 03, 2008 at 01:47 PM (#2804084)
'75 v. '07
C Fisk over Varitek
1B Yaz over Youkilis (based on reputation; they were about equal)
2B Pedroia over Doyle/Griffin
3B Lowell over Petrocelli
LF Rice over Manny (just because Manny had about his worst season)
CF Lynn over Crisp
RF Evans over Drew
DH Ortiz over Cooper/Carbo

Lineup 5-4 '75

Rotation:
1. Beckett
2. Matsuzaka
3. Lee
4. Wise or Tiant
5. Schilling

I figure the innings that the '75 guys threw made up for some of the differences in ERA+, but it would be hard to keep the '07 team's top three out of the rotation. I can't believe that Rice would really believe that Beckett would not be in the rotation.

Bullpen:
1. Papelbon
2. Okajima
3. Lopez
4. Burton
5. Timlin
6. Drago (or Snyder)

The bullpen isn't even close. This is a huge advantage for the '07 team. Lefty Jim Burton was the only one on the '75 team to pitch well enough to be considered, and the '07 team had a couple of lefties that were better.
   10. JPWF13 Posted: June 03, 2008 at 02:03 PM (#2804106)
I wonder what prrovoked this out of Rice?


What makes you think he needed to be provoked? This is just your basic bitter old guy saying the game was better in my day, my teammates were better than these guys now etc etc.

And I have no doubt he really believes what he's saying, just as I have no doubt that Frankie Frisch truly believed that every ex-teammate he rammed through the Vets committee and into the HOF was deserving.
   11. Crispix Attacksel Rios Posted: June 03, 2008 at 02:11 PM (#2804119)
I think it would be interesting if we had another situation where the Veterans Committe actually makes sins of commission rather than sins of omission.

Say Jim Rice was the chairman of the Veterans Committee, and managed to rule it with an iron hand. Who would become the new crop of Hall of Famers? Fred Lynn? Luis Tiant? Dwight Evans? Bruce Hurst? Rich Gedman? Bernie Carbo? Bob Stanley, the Jesse Haines of his generation?
   12. Pasta-diving Jeter (jmac66) Posted: June 03, 2008 at 02:21 PM (#2804131)
This is just your basic bitter old guy saying the game was better in my day,

stages of aging: (or feeling like you're aging)

1. ballplayers are younger than you

2. cops are younger than you

3. doctors are younger than you

4. bitter old ballplayers are younger than you

sheesh
   13. SoSH U at work Posted: June 03, 2008 at 02:26 PM (#2804135)
This is just your basic bitter old guy saying the game was better in my day,


Don't sell Jim Ed short. He could be pretty bitter when he was young too.
   14. JPWF13 Posted: June 03, 2008 at 02:26 PM (#2804136)
Oh, so you were able to figure that out while sitting like a slug typing away at your computer?


Kev, kev, you're pissier than usual today? Didn't get a good night's sleep?
The Sox are 5.5 games up on the Yankees, whatever could be wrong?


Seriously, did you really meet Nieporent in person? And no one got hurt?
   15. John Northey Posted: June 03, 2008 at 02:30 PM (#2804137)
What is funny is I recall Rice being called selfish and viewed much how he views Manny (yes, I'm closing in on 40). Also recall people asking old Red Sox about that team and saying how the mid-70's Red Sox weren't as good as (name a team from 20+ years earlier).

Some things are 100% predictable. Old ballplayers complaining about the kids today not being able to hold their jockstraps (ugh, what an image) is just one of the big ones.
   16. Suff Posted: June 03, 2008 at 02:30 PM (#2804138)
Criminy, Suff. You're putting Burton 4th??? You ever see that dude pitch?

No. I was going by the stats. (I was a year shy of birth in '75.) He had a good year in '75. If you were going to go by "stuff," my guess is that at least among relievers, current guys are going to at least LOOK better, because of the velocity and what not.
   17. bunyon Posted: June 03, 2008 at 02:33 PM (#2804143)
I assume you're just using the stats for that season, right? Otherwise, I'm not sure I get the Yaz = Youks equation I see above and have seen elsewhere.
   18. Misirlou cut his hair and moved to Rome Posted: June 03, 2008 at 02:33 PM (#2804144)
C Fisk over Varitek


While Fisk is of course a better ballplay than Varitek, he missed half the year in 1975. Is 79 games of .331/.395/.529 150 OPS+ better than 131 games of .255/.367/.421 103 OPS+? On the other hand, Fisk was there for the WS, but on the other other hand, Rice was not. So, either Tek/Pudge is a push, or Manny creams Juan Beniquez.
   19. Slinger Francisco Barrios (Dr. Memory) Posted: June 03, 2008 at 02:46 PM (#2804152)
1. ballplayers are younger than you
2. cops are younger than you
3. doctors are younger than you
4. bitter old ballplayers are younger than you


5. some of your kids' teachers are clearly too young to be out of high school
   20. JPWF13 Posted: June 03, 2008 at 02:53 PM (#2804159)
I assume you're just using the stats for that season, right? Otherwise, I'm not sure I get the Yaz = Youks equation I see above and have seen elsewhere.

Either that or a three year window view
Yaz from 1974-76 was a 140- 111- 120 OPS+ so his 1975 talent level was what? 125?
Youks from 2006-08 106-117-139 (1/3 season of 139) 115 OPS from 2006-08

Youks may be a better fielder at 1b than Yaz was from 1974-75.

So Youks in his age 27-29 prime is pretty close to the player Yaz was post-prime ages 34-36 (Yaz from ages 27-29 just completely blows Youks out of the water though)
   21. Blackadder Posted: June 03, 2008 at 03:05 PM (#2804166)
I remember a great Bill James piece where he strings together quotes of old guys saying how much better bbaseball was in their day, all the way back to the 1880's! Apparently, the 1880's ballplayers couldn't hold a candle to the tough ex-Civil War supermen of the late 1860's.

Also, the 1975 Red Sox outscored their opponents by 87 runs, the 2007 Red Sox by 210. Since the 2007 Red Sox were much better relative to their time, Rice must believe that that the quality of play has completely collapsed over the last 30 years. What a jerk. I hope he doesn't get his undeserved 1.7%.
   22. rr Posted: June 03, 2008 at 03:11 PM (#2804171)
I wonder what prrovoked this out of Rice?


I thought Rice had always been seen as a surly, bitter, selfish type guy, so I assumed this kind of stuff coming from him would surprise no one as he ages.
   23. rr Posted: June 03, 2008 at 03:13 PM (#2804172)
“The only one that would’ve made it, maybe (Jonathan) Papelbon,” Rice said. “Because we had Dick Drago out there, Papelbon has a little more velocity than him.


In the James thing Blackadder mentions, James quotes Joe Dugan as saying pretty much the same thing about the '32 and '78 Yankees. I think Munson was the only Bronz Zooer Dugan had in the lineup...
   24. Kiko Sakata Posted: June 03, 2008 at 03:16 PM (#2804178)
In the James thing Blackadder mentions, James quotes Joe Dugan as saying pretty much the same thing about the '32 and '78 Yankees. I think Munson was the only Bronz Zooer Dugan had in the lineup


Well, in fairness to Dugan, it wasn't their talent that would have kept Reggie Jackson and Willie Randolph off the 1932 Yankees.
   25. JPWF13 Posted: June 03, 2008 at 03:20 PM (#2804185)
Also, the 1975 Red Sox outscored their opponents by 87 runs,


Outplayed their Pythag by 7.... never knew that...
I do recall thinking at the time that they were totally outclassed by the Big Red Machine

But that's not fair, the mid 70s Reds were monsters.

The 70s gave me my first real impression of how baseball was, how it should be played, and how winning teams should be built.

Reds bludgeoned teams into submission with offense, kept Team pitching and defense respectable.

My team, the Mets, were built on pitching and defense, couldn't get out of 80 wins, and when the frontline pitching collapsed (was traded away) the team collapsed to 95 losses and stayed there.

I could never understand fellow Met fans who kept parroting the "pitching and defense win championships" line, I had grown up observing that philosophy was wrong, maybe if I was old enough to have paid attention to 1969 I'd think differently, but no, I grew up thinking: "Bid Red Machine model works, Pitching and Dee can get you to 3rd place".

Obviously in the mid 80s I loved Davey Johnson.
   26. My name is Votto, and I love to get Moppo Posted: June 03, 2008 at 04:40 PM (#2804227)
“But I think today’s players would probably say, ‘I’m playing for the Hall of Fame.’ But I say, ‘I played for the Boston Red Sox.’

I just can't picture anyone saying that. Here's John Smoltz, for instance:

"What didn't sit well with me," he said, "is when everyone tried to justify [closing] as my ticket to the Hall of Fame. I kept trying to say over and over again, 'I don't care about that, or about setting up standards so I can make it.' All I ever cared about was having another ring on my finger."

espn.com
   27. phredbird Posted: June 03, 2008 at 04:55 PM (#2804245)
1. ballplayers are younger than you
2. cops are younger than you
3. doctors are younger than you
4. bitter old ballplayers are younger than you

5. some of your kids' teachers are clearly too young to be out of high school


6. the president is younger than you.

if obama makes it, that applies to me.
   28. 185/456(GGC) Posted: June 03, 2008 at 05:01 PM (#2804252)
Some things are 100% predictable. Old ballplayers complaining about the kids today not being able to hold their jockstraps (ugh, what an image) is just one of the big ones.


Yeah. That's why I don't find this newsworthy. Maybe Rice pissed Repoz off at CBGBs or something. That might explain the ongoing Rice obsession, but Rice doesn't seem like a CBGBs guy.
   29. PS is probably something something Posted: June 03, 2008 at 05:03 PM (#2804257)
5. some of your kids' teachers are clearly too young to be out of high school


Hell, that happened to me when I was in high school.

I swear, she looked just like anyone else in the room, maybe a senior.
   30. John Northey Posted: June 03, 2008 at 06:49 PM (#2804351)
6. the president is younger than you.


Ah, the factor McCain is counting on to win this fall. Few voters are older than him and the voters between his and Obama's age are the crew most likely to vote.

Mandatory baseball content...
Obama was born August 4th, 1961 - the same year as Andres Galarraga, Don Mattingly, Rick Aguilera, and Jimmy Key (among others).
McCain was born August 29th, 1936 - the same year as Harmon Killebrew, Frank Howard, Bill Mazeroski, and Don Drysdale (among others).

The year Obama was born we saw 61 HR hit for the first time. The year McCain was born we saw Babe Ruth inducted into the Hall of Fame.
   31. cardsfanboy Posted: June 03, 2008 at 07:00 PM (#2804358)
what about people who share their birthdays with McCain and Obama.

for McCain you have Oswalt, Rowand, Doug Decinces....not really much there.

For Obama you have Roger Clemens, Dallas Green, Jake Beckley... a little better line there. :)
   32. Traderdave Posted: June 03, 2008 at 07:08 PM (#2804365)
#1 should be the Playmate of the Month is younger than you
   33. bunyon Posted: June 03, 2008 at 07:21 PM (#2804375)
CFB, given that list, I'd choose McCain. I mean, Clemens and Dallas Green? Frightening. Give me bland over that anyday.
   34. Charter Member of the Jesus Melendez Fanclub Posted: June 03, 2008 at 08:10 PM (#2804411)
I swear, she looked just like anyone else in the room, maybe a senior.

Did you hit it?
   35. Barry`s_Lazy_Boy Posted: June 03, 2008 at 08:19 PM (#2804418)
I swear, she looked just like anyone else in the room, maybe a senior.

Are you Luis Polonia?
   36. SoSH U at work Posted: June 03, 2008 at 08:43 PM (#2804427)
Are you Luis Polonia?


In this scenario, isn't Sample Size is the anti-Polonia.
   37. Edmundo got dem ol' Kozma blues again mama Posted: June 03, 2008 at 08:49 PM (#2804429)
5. some of your kids' teachers are clearly too young to be out of high school
6. The frightening, trying-to-look-15-years-younger-than-she-is blond from Sex In The City is younger than you are.
   38. Misirlou cut his hair and moved to Rome Posted: June 03, 2008 at 08:54 PM (#2804433)
In the James thing Blackadder mentions, James quotes Joe Dugan as saying pretty much the same thing about the '32 and '78 Yankees. I think Munson was the only Bronz Zooer Dugan had in the lineup...


Guidry was the other, and he claimed both would be in the bullpen.

what about people who share their birthdays with McCain and Obama.

for McCain you have Oswalt, Rowand, Doug Decinces....not really much there.

For Obama you have Roger Clemens, Dallas Green, Jake Beckley... a little better line there. :)


Neither of them do anything for the All Presidents team. Best hope is that McCain chooses Condi Rice for VP and then dies in office.
   39. Srul Itza Posted: June 03, 2008 at 09:01 PM (#2804443)
In the saddle?

With Condi?

Now THERE's an image.
   40. Mike Hampton's #1 Fan Posted: June 03, 2008 at 09:07 PM (#2804445)
Bob Stanley, the Jesse Haines of his generation?

Jesse Haines, hell. Bob Stanley was more like the Syl Johnson of his generation.
   41. Charter Member of the Jesus Melendez Fanclub Posted: June 03, 2008 at 09:51 PM (#2804480)
Is it because he's black?
   42. Halofan Posted: June 03, 2008 at 10:54 PM (#2804510)
... now THIS is the bitter, loathing Jm Rice that I grew up with.
   43. Darren Posted: June 03, 2008 at 11:35 PM (#2804539)
I just can't picture anyone saying that.


Yeah, me neither. It's like one of those Albert Belle jokes or something.

This is surprising coming out of Rice because a) he is currently employed as an analyst for the Red Sox network, and b) he is usually incredibly bland in his analysis. A lot of talk about how it feels to do this, or what to look for in that situation, and a whole lot of platitudes. He will occasionally make an "in my day" type remark, but nothing even close to this.

And, of course, he's not even close to right. He looks downright delusional, in fact. Comparing stats, of course, misses Rice's point, because he's saying that the whole league was better, making it tougher to put up stats. But guys are bigger and stronger now. They throw harder and work at their game year round. They take steroids for crying out loud!
   44. cardsfanboy Posted: June 03, 2008 at 11:58 PM (#2804573)
#1 should be the Playmate of the Month is younger than you


Yep, I remember that one being a big deal to me when I was 19 and looking through some magazines. Rich Garces was the first player younger than me in the majors and that was nearly a year later.
   45. cardsfanboy Posted: June 04, 2008 at 12:01 AM (#2804579)
of course another step in the realizing aging cycle is when there is nobody older than you currently in baseball
   46. Misirlou cut his hair and moved to Rome Posted: June 04, 2008 at 12:04 AM (#2804591)
of course another step in the realizing aging cycle is when there is nobody older than you currently in baseball


Well, I've still got Jamie Moyer.

The first player younger than me played his last game nearly 13 years ago.
   47. Howie Menckel Posted: June 04, 2008 at 03:20 AM (#2805033)
wasn't Rice playing in the era of the reputed "25 players, 25 taxicabs" era?

a bad day for the Rice man
   48. Gonfalon Bubble Posted: June 04, 2008 at 04:18 AM (#2805227)
#1 should be the Playmate of the Month is younger than you

Yep, I remember that one being a big deal to me when I was 19 and looking through some magazines. Rich Garces was the first player younger than me in the majors and that was nearly a year later.


And Garces had bigger tits than the Playmate, too!
   49. SoSHially Unacceptable Posted: June 04, 2008 at 04:22 AM (#2805236)
I do recall thinking at the time that they were totally outclassed by the Big Red Machine


WTF? The series was one of the most closely fought ever.

Well, it was a reasonable belief before the series started. The Reds had gone 108-54, following seasons of 95, 99 and 98 victories in what was generally considered the better league . The Red Sox, in contrast, had gone 95-65, but were an 84-win team the season before. And, as was noted above, their pyth record wasn't very impressive (not that pyth existed at the time, but you could certainly glean an impression about a team's strength without knowing the exact runs scored-runs allowed totals).

Obviously, the World Series was a great one. But the belief going into that series that the Reds were the superior team was not unfounded.

Frankly, I had the same feeling before the 86 series. The Sox were certainly in a great position to win that one too, but I never thought they were actually better than that Mets team (and looking it up, the Mets-Reds had identical W-L records, while the sets of Red Sox teams were comparative W-L records were separated by a half-game. Weird).
   50. Blackadder Posted: June 04, 2008 at 04:52 AM (#2805307)
Nice post, SoSH. Actually, when you think about it, the Sox from 1919 to 2003 were very unlucky in their World Series opponents. Three of the opponents (1946 Cardinals, 1967 Cardinals, 1975 Reds) were great teams--even by World Series standards--in the middle of a sustained period of dominance, while the fourth, the 1986 Mets, may well have been if other issues had not derailed them. Given the circumstances, the Red Sox WS performance over these years was actually pretty impressive.

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