Hmm, sounds like the needle on the Padres explain-o-meter is moving toward "chemistry problems."

Melvin seemed extremely pissed off when the media asked him about this after the game. He was barely able to hold back.

"Hey Josh, we are 0-whatever in extra innings, how about taking the ball for 5 or 6 outs if we need it?"
"Nah man, I'm an FA soon, need to preserve my arm for a big payday."

I doubt this is exactly how it played out, but it sure reads like that. Not a good look for Josh.

FWIW I have to think Hader is thinking on how when his wife and child were not doing great after the kid was born, Hader was obviously distracted and performing poorly and had lost like 10 lbs Brewers management traded him.

Ballclubs gonna ballclub. And after the Crew tanked after the trade because most of the team thought management had been major ######## (Hader super popular with teammates) this year things have obviously turned for the better for everyone. Brewers winning. Hader has been amazing.

I get this doesn't come across well. But he was done dirty as far as he was concerned. He's not going to do anyone any favors anytime soon. Just do his job for this season and then see what happens

The padres just announced big salary cutbacks which means Hader isn't re-signing. So it's the Padres "throw Contreras under the bus scapegoat moment" to deflect from missing out on the playoffs.

Hader is right. Everybody else should do their job to get to me. More back end guys should control their usage like he is. Every manager will use their number 1 guy if they are allowed.

I'd sign him in a heartbeat. I hope this craters his value and the Cards can sign him.

Hader is right. Everybody else should do their job to get to me. More back end guys should control their usage like he is. Every manager will use their number 1 guy if they are allowed.

If this is the case, then you could have a situation where Mookie says, NO, I won't play SS or 2B, I prefer RF as I could get hurt on the pivot turning a DP or something. It's the lunatics running the asylum.

The Padres are like 0-gazzillion in extras this year, so some RP on the staff is not doing their job. Sure it's a small sample size but you can't just say, nah, not for me man, I got my 3 outs, its up to you guys to win it in the 10th or later.

You're not exactly endearing yourself to your teammates.

(Hader super popular with teammates)

How can he not be with all of his prolific tweeting as a youth.

Tom and Shivs makes some good points, but Hader hasn't pitched even 60 innings in a season since before Covid. He's making $14 million this year for what is likely to be around 55 innings.

I think it's fair for Melvin/the Padres to expect a little more from him.

Not before he gets market value. Isn't 55 innings reasonable ? 162 games. So he's pitching once every three days for one inning. They are going to have 80 ish wins and a few of them don't need saving. It seems like an ok workload and he's healthy

Maybe I'm old-fashioned, but I think 55 innings is light, even for a capital-C Closer who only works 9th innings in save situations.

Mariano Rivera, not exactly a workhorse, never threw fewer than 60 (regular-season) innings in a healthy season, even in his 40s. If you look at every pitcher with more than 20 saves this year (22 of them), only Kenley Jansen and Pete Fairbanks have thrown fewer innings than Hader. 13 of the 22 have already passed 60 innings, Clase's over 70. And most of those guys (not Jansen) are making much less than Hader's $14 million this year. #2-4 (Doval, Bednar, A. Diaz) are making less than $1 million each.

I think teams are realizing that they don't need a "proven" (and expensive) guy to fill the Closer role -- any young (and cheap) pitcher who can throw 98+ mph for an inning at a time without terrible control problems can handle it. If they don't have one of those, they can hand the job to a journeyman custodian type and it should be good enough.

Looking at the save leaders for the best teams in baseball this year:

Braves: Raisel Iglesias $16 million - OK, he's expensive
Orioles: Felix Bautista $731,000 in his 2nd season, 28 years old
Dodgers: Evan Phillips $1.3 million in his 6th season, first season as closer
Rays: Pete Fairbanks $3.67 million in his 5th season, first season as primary closer
Rangers: Will Smith $1.5 million in his 11th season, scrap-heap pickup
Brewers: Devin Williams $3.35 million in his 5th season, Hader's successor at a fraction of the cost
Phillies: Craig Kimbrel $10 million in his 14th season, on the back end of his career and salary curve
Blue Jays: Jordan Romano $4.5 million in his 5th season

Again, all those guys except Fairbanks, who spent some time on the DL, have thrown more innings than Hader.

Mariano Rivera, not exactly a workhorse, never threw fewer than 60 (regular-season) innings in a healthy season, even in his 40s.

Actually, in the modern closer era Rivera was something of a workhorse for much of his career, especially when it counted most. Lots of 4 out or longer saves, and/or pitching 3 days in a row, even more so in postseason. Rivera remains unusual in his era for not only being willing to pitch more than 1 inning, but being successful at it for such a long time.

by far the most underrated aspect of the Yankees 1996-2003 dynasty, imo, was "old school manager" Joe Torre's postseason usage of Rivera for the most important moments - and for as long as he was needed.

while Rivera's unanimous selection to the HOF ahead of at least 50 better players is absurd, that doesn't mean he wasn't an incredible force in the postseason (regular season? he was replaced by David Robertson, iirc, who put up about the same results). and that's even with the postseason hiccups of 1997 and 2001 - nobody ever was in the ultimate spotlight more at the end of games, and there is no chance that always ends well (plus it was mainly his poor fielding that did him in, 2001).

Actually, in the modern closer era Rivera was something of a workhorse for much of his career, especially when it counted most. Lots of 4 out or longer saves, and/or pitching 3 days in a row, even more so in postseason. Rivera remains unusual in his era for not only being willing to pitch more than 1 inning, but being successful at it for such a long time.

If you count the postseason (or focus on the postseason) he was definitely a workhorse, and I don't mean to diminish him in any way. However, in the regular season his IP totals were pretty normal for a capital-C Closer and don't stand out as exceptional.

I just meant to use him as a well-known example of someone used in a typical "modern closer" manner who nevertheless consistently threw about 25% more (regular season) innings per year than Hader will this year.

Hader is right. Everybody else should do their job to get to me. More back end guys should control their usage like he is. Every manager will use their number 1 guy if they are allowed.

Birds of a feather...

Hader came up and was the fireman, appearing anytime and for for longer stints. Then he got ###### in arbitration for being used that way, and not having saves. So, he then focused his career on saves. Hader is just responding to incentives that the system has created for him. Blame MLB and the system they put together. His teammates seem to support him on this.

"Nah man, I'm an FA soon, need to preserve my arm for a big payday."

“Every time I call it a business, you call it a game! And every time I call it a game, you call it a business!”

I find it fascinating how many people (not specifically here but sports fans in general) believe that the player should give every last effort he's got for the team to win, but when it it comes time to critique the owner? Well, of course money has to come first.

But he was done dirty as far as he was concerned.

He was done dirty - before he hit arbitration he was used more like a fireman, and then during the arb process, the lack of saves was used against him. I'm not sure how you can blame the man for responding to the incentives put directly in front of him.

Edit: Not sure how I missed Barry beating me by 10 minutes, but coke to him for getting there first, and almost verbatim.

I don't blame Hader for acting in his own best interest, especially after the Brewers shafted him. (Not a smart move for a team that has enough trouble attracting talent.) But I'm not sure his payday is going to be all that, given that, as was pointed out above, an increasing number of organizations are wising up to the significance of the saves stat.

He'll definitely get offers, and he'll be an asset to anyone's bullpen, but his contract isn't going to set any records.

From MLB:

There are other proven closers on the market this winter, including David Robertson and Craig Kimbrel, but those two former All-Stars are on the wrong side of 35 and won’t be viewed as long-term options for a club seeking to stabilize the ninth inning. Hader, on the other hand, turns 30 in April and is arguably the best reliever in the game right now. The lefty has allowed seven earned runs in 57 appearances this season (1.19 ERA), ranking in the 95th percentile or better in strikeout percentage, chase rate, xBA, xSLG and hard-hit percentage. Edwin Díaz landed a record-setting five-year, $102 million deal last winter, a figure Hader might approach -- or eclipse -- as the best reliever available.

So the record I guess is Diaz's deal. Will he get $20 million a year for 60 innings of 2 WAR high leverage performance?

The next guys on the list are Hendricks and Iglesias who were less money and years

5/102 seems about right for Hader. Diaz may be a tick better and younger but the market will also go up as it does every year.

How do you "not make yourself available for four outs?" It's not the player's decision when he comes into the game. I guess the team has limited leverage over a pending free agent (suspended without pay for a week isn't a big deal), but they could do something like very publicly say that he's not a team player, and how the Padres have no interest in bringing him back at any price and such. Or, better, they could tell him that they'll do that unless he gets up in the bullpen and does what his manager tells him to do.

Maybe the bigger issue is that the Padres can't let players think that they can disobey the manager's orders.

When the face of your franchise and the top locker room guy is Manny Machado, that sets the bar pretty high in terms of how much assholery your organization is willing to tolerate.

Once Devin showed up Hader was on Stearns radar to move.

Stearns strong believer that you can always find the “next guy” as a reliever. I think he conflated Craig’s expertise in bullpen management with his own belief system on bullpens. Meaning Craig affirmed Stearns into thinking he could put someone out there and it would work. But NOT giving sufficient credit to CC

I think Counsell is a ####### bullpen savant and Brewers are going to land hard after he leaves

Then he got ###### in arbitration for being used that way, and not having saves. So, he then focused his career on saves.

Bringing every time you've ever been done wrong into a discussion of whether you can get four outs when needed is a chemistry problem.

I find it fascinating how many people (not specifically here but sports fans in general) believe that the player should give every last effort he's got for the team to win, but when it it comes time to critique the owner? Well, of course money has to come first.

Hader is being paid $14,100,000 to pitch this year. For 53.1 innings pitched so far.

I get that he wants to sign a new contract for next year, but he is under contract for this year. If he's needed, he should pitch.

He's an indentured servant waiting to be set free. Frankly I'm surprised more good pitchers don't mail it in and save their bullets for post - free agency. It's not just the money. Maybe $14 goes to $20 next year. Not that big a deal. But if he's close to Diaz he gets $102 million guaranteed vs being asked to extend a few extra outs and risk an injury (for a less than 1% chance of making the playoffs).

I will add. Look at Ohtani. How much has he lost laying it on the line for a bad team. Tens if not hundreds of millions.

He is managing up. He hasn't pitched over 1.0 during this season. The Padres decided they wanted to change his usage after they've effectively been eliminated. Hader learned in arbitration that it is a business, nothing personal, and has carried himself accordingly since then. In 5 days, he won't be the Padres problem anymore. If they want to publicly bash him, they can, but it won't do much good, and will only turn other players off. And Josh can deal with the fallout of his move when he is negotiating free agency.

I get that he wants to sign a new contract for next year, but he is under contract for this year. If he's needed, he should pitch.

Not Padre-specific, but the typical MLB owner is worth multiple billions, I get that he wants to save money, but if he's needed to spend lavishly on free agents to help the team win, he should spend lavishly. The vast majority of baseball fans adamantly believe your statement, and adamantly deny mine.

the Padres can't let players think that they can disobey the manager's orders.

And when the manager says to throw 130 pitches on three days rest? Obviously that's an extreme example, but where do we draw the line on when a player gets to put his health over the manager's orders?

What about Hader’s mental health last season? He was a mess by his own admission due to his personal situation. Brewers didn’t care.

The only looking out for Hader is Hader. He learned that from management.

I'd definitely pay less (and maybe a lot less) for a guy who acted like his most important consideration was the paycheck. Especially if it is any kind of lengthy contract. I'm not sure Hader is making a good business decision here. Or, at least he is avoiding work a little too publicly and that will potentially hurt the bottom line for his next contract.

If anyone is interested there is a working theory that the Hader trade was the catalyst for Stearns early exit and Counsell likely leaving after this season

That CC told Stearns that the trade would kill clubhouse and when Stearns told him whatever Craig went to Mark and Mark said David’s call

Then team craters. Stearns realizes he f’ed up so moved to “consultant”. Mark thought this would placate Craig who apparently was insulted his input was ignored. So now when team asks CC about new contract he says “not yet”

Short version is that trading Hader will cost Crew the player, the GM and the manager

F me

Could be, but I doubt it. I think in the universe where Hader wasn't traded, Hearns and Counsell are still both employed elsewhere in 2024 anyway.

He's an indentured servant waiting to be set free. Frankly I'm surprised more good pitchers don't mail it in and save their bullets for post - free agency.

He's not a pre-arb youth, he's working a major dollar contract for $14m. He's already been paid, so if he won't pitch for this money I certainly wouldn't pay him more.

I'd love to know how this has been playing out behind the scenes this summer, and in fact we'll probably be finding out a lot of it if everything in San Diego blows up this winter.

32. No, he's not being paid. He's being paid one amount for one year when his value is 8x higher over multiple years. Again, how much is Ohtani worth today vs 3 months ago. He got paid too but not nearly what his value was.

Here's a thought, Padres management could have offered him 5/102 any day up to the day before he pitched and didn't. Had they done that, maybe he pitches.

two levels here:

- Hader refuses to get more than 3 outs because he already has a foot out the door anyway

- Hader feels comfortable acknowledging this fact publicly

If I'm a potential bidder, I'd be at least as concerned about the second one.

because he already has a foot out the door anyway

But it's not that he has a foot out the door. He's been a three out guy ever since the arb process showed him that he'll primarily get paid for saves, and everything else is a clear second. And that's what he's publicly acknowledging.

and publicly acknowledging such a stance is dumb. if he lands in a big media market, he put a giant target on his back - for no upside on his end.

and publicly acknowledging such a stance is dumb. if he lands in a big media market, he put a giant target on his back - for no upside on his end.

What a trifecta. The first bit cites facts not in evidence. The second bit is particularly hilarious because he's getting the grief already ... in a small market. And the third bit is false because one, he is prioritizing his health, and two, he sees that the upside is only for accumulating saves, not for being a fireman.

I do enjoy the comments suggesting that teams will use this to pay him less, as if any team wasn't already planning on using whatever they could find to pay him less to begin with. When he's used as a fireman, its argued that should be reason to pay him less. He's used as a strict closer, its argued that should be reason to pay him less. If he was used heavily in a flexible role where he took on both tasks, teams would certainly argue that his usage made him some kind of health risk. It's almost like the real factor at hand is that billionaire owners are cheap as hell.

The first bit cites facts not in evidence.

I have no idea what you're trying to say there.

The second bit is particularly hilarious because he's getting the grief already ... in a small market.

which underscores how much worse the scenario is liable to be if and when he lands in a bigger market. so - thanks?

And the third bit is false because one, he is prioritizing his health, and two, he sees that the upside is only for accumulating saves, not for being a fireman.

you didn't understand anything I wrote, it appears. I am pretty clearly talking about, well, "publicly acknowledging such a stance is dumb" when I refer to "no upside on his end."

for some reason you want to change the conversation into whether he's smart to insist on only getting 3 outs, when I'm talking about the wisdom - or lack thereof - regarding his making his stance so public.

I do enjoy the comments suggesting that teams will use this to pay him less, as if any team wasn't already planning on using whatever they could find to pay him less to begin with. When he's used as a fireman, its argued that should be reason to pay him less. He's used as a strict closer, its argued that should be reason to pay him less. If he was used heavily in a flexible role where he took on both tasks, teams would certainly argue that his usage made him some kind of health risk. It's almost like the real factor at hand is that billionaire owners are cheap as hell.

It's a competitive market, and he's not the only player out there. Just because billionaire owners are "cheap" and are already looking for reasons to pay him less, doesn't mean you should give them every reason to do so. If a player has a bad enough attitude some teams will discount his value or opt for another guy. Is this a surprise? Whether Hader's comments are really enough to move the needle I don't know, but I'm currently in line for a promotion at my job and I can guarantee you I sure as #### am not advertising the less cooperative aspects of my approach to my job at this time.

Once Devin showed up Hader was on Stearns radar to move.

Seems unlikely ... or Stearns did a poor job. Williams emerged in 2020, kept it up in 2021 ... yet still Stearns waited to move Hader until the deadline in 2022, after Hader had crashed and burned, getting nothing of immediate help in return in the middle of a playoff chase? It strikes me as extremely unlikely that Stearns looked to move Hader during the 2021-22 offseason -- it would have been very easy to do so -- and clearly the plan for 2022 was to ride those two through the season until Hader cratered. Certainly Williams' presence made it "easier" for them to decide to move Hader when the time came but that wasn't the plan.

Well you’re wrong that they weren’t trying before 2022. One of the things that also irked Hader was that he knew the club was shopping him after 2021. And there are articles before the 2021 season discussing how the Padres should be the ones to get Hader

You are right that Stearns blew it in terms of timing He clearly was looking for some humongous return and f’ed up

Then again they did did turn Ruiz into William Contreras so that’s something

No, he's not being paid. He's being paid one amount for one year when his value is 8x higher over multiple years.

His lifetime earnings are $37,119,100.00. 8x that is $296,952,800.00.

Mike Trout's lifetime earnings are $245,017,833.

How much does this guy have to get paid before you can legitimately ask him to throw a few pitches?