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Baseball Primer Newsblog — The Best News Links from the Baseball Newsstand Thursday, June 19, 2008J.P. Ricciardi trashes Adam Dunn on radio showWhat is there left to say…
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Also, hypersensitive, aloof jackasses really shouldn't do call-in shows. Is this a regular thing up in Toronto?
Do you, JP?
However, with that said, you have a good point. I'd rather have Adam Dunn's not enjoying putting up his numbers than some scrub who loves the game putting up crappy numbers. Give me a choice between two players with roughly equal stats and one loves the game and one doesn't, I take the one who enjoys it. But that calculation should come after talent evaluation.
But I really don't think a GM should be talking about this subject in public. I don't think a GM should negatively discuss any player anywhere in public. You make your statement by not signing the guy.
I can't understand why Ricciardi would state this about Dunn in public. That was just dumb.
Yeah. I'm thinking, like Bavasi with his "dumbass" comment, J.P. is on his way out and doesn't care anymore abnout decorum. Otherwise, he just screwed the pooch.
He needs some Crash Davis tutorial.
Anyway, as much grief as we give him it's probably a bit more than he deserves. He puts together decent teams in a tough division. Bland as hell, seemingly no upside, overpriced teams so not good -- but not near the Littlefield/Bavasi end of the spectrum.
But yeah, his time in Toronto should finish and no reason anybody else should give him a GM job.
He does it every Wednesday.
He's more machine than man now, twisted and evil.
He's more machine than man now, twisted and evil.
Beane is much smoother with the media than his acolytes, that's for sure.
Best Regards
John
Plus Ricciardi hasn't written a book about how you have to have a team of John Jahas.
When Terry Ryan was running things in Minnesota, his weekly KFAN call-in time was usually 25-30 minutes of "It's not appropriate for me to talk about specific players" when he was inevitably asked about trading for somebody. He often had to repeat it to the same caller, so I guess it wasn't entirely the conversation shut-down he hoped for, but his consistency had a certain elegance.
wouldn't his statements constitute negative tampering?
(antitampering?)
is that allowed in MLB?
I was listening to the show last night. I think J.P. was just getting frustrated with some of the questions and couldn't take it anymore when the caller inquired about Adam Dunn. Still, it was probably an ill-advised rant by J.P.
"No idea," Dunn said. "Who are they?"
Casey knew: Ichiro, Melvin Mora and Pudge Rodriguez.
"Fascinating," Dunn said.
Love the sarcasm.
I just assumed this is what happened. I get frustrated by this crap, too, as I talk a lot of baseball with people who get their info from Mike and the Mad Dog or Michael Kay. The one advantage I have that J.P. doesn't, is that nobody gives a #### what I say.
If this is a defense of J.P., exactly why was Gord Ash fired?
If we're in Star Wars references, shouldn't that be a team of John Jawas?
No kidding. When Hank Steinbrenner puts down the bottle of STFU juice, he should pour some for Ricciardi.
You're obsessed.
Dunn: Well, how are the Blue Jays doing?
Reporter: Last place.
Dunn: Doesn't sound like JP really likes winning that much.
There's nothing in your quote that shows Adam Dunn doesn't like baseball. So he doesn't follow the standings and the batting leaders of the league he doesn't play in. So he likes football, too. So what. I'm sure plenty of other players also fit this description.
Of course, the rest of JP's quote was that Dunn "doesn’t have a passion to play the game that much." In other words, he's not trying. That's horseshit.
Do you think he knows who the Blue Jays are?
I said it before and I'll say it again - JP is trying to get fired a la Peter from "Office Space." I expect him to get a three year contract extension any day now.
I knew the top player on the college I attended, a guy that had been drafted three times. He hated watching baseball. He was around it so much, I guess he got tired of it. Loved watching football or "pro-wrestling", but didn't follow the majors all that much.
More like George Costanza. He should try dragging a World Series trophy around the parking lot.
Agreed that there is a difference between having a passion to play and having interests outside of baseball.
What JP "may" be referring to, though I doubt it since he doesn't seem to have a reputation for due diligence, is that the Adam Dunn of a few years ago, NOT NOW, but a few years past worked VERY hard in generating a persona that he played baseball but really CARED about other things.
I read interviews where Adam spoke at length of his love of college football.
I read interviews where Adam spoke at length of his love of fishing.
I read interviews where Adam spoke of how "yeah he played baseball but he really preferred watching fishing shows while eating Doritos".
And along the way Adam's defense went into the tank and he got heavy.
NOW TO HIS CREDIT after the disasterous finish to the 2006 season where his bat went MIA the last two months and several times he all but fell down in the outfield Adam lost about 15-20 lbs that offseason and since then has been a more consistent offensive player while getting back some of his defensive ability.
He isn't a "good" defensive outfielder. But he is no longer a complete embarrassment.
So if one wanted to be generous to JP one could claim he is working off VERY OLD information. Adam Dunn of 2008 is NOT the Adam Dunn of 2006.
But I think the masses here are correct. JP is being a jerk for no other reason than he wants to be.
Which is pretty sad behavior for a grown man........
But the with bumbling fools in management, you're right, they don't seem to want to fire him.
Also, Vernon Wells is widely considered aloof and not-caring amongst Toronto fans. And he's making a few bones.
Dunn: Well, how are the Blue Jays doing?
Reporter: Last place.
Dunn: Doesn't sound like JP really likes winning that much."
Oh, the burning! How it burns!
J.P. has been rickrolled!
Do you think he knows who the Blue Jays are?
Does he know where Canada is?
Link
I may be wrong, but I remember hearing this about Larry Walker--that his real love was hockey and he didn't care much for baseball.
Keith Foulke too
I have mentioned this before in reference to Ricciardi, and I agree. As a fan, I want to see the guys running my team as being "boring" just like Crash and Nuke say on the Bulls' bus. Having moved into a low-level admin role here at work the last few years in addition to teaching, I have learned that when one is in authority--even at a low level--public statements need to be boring vanilla at almost all times. For example, look at Epstein and Francona. They are rarely involved in any flareups or sound bite issues.
Now, as a guy who is neutral about the Jays and looks to MLB for entertainment, I kind of like JP. I click on these links and think, "Cool. Wonder what flap he is into now." If I were a Jays fan, though, I'd be thinking, "Shut up and put a better team on the field."
I AM a Reds fan, and I often wish that Adam Dunn were wired like Barry Bonds, minus the PEDs. I think Dunn might be able to put up MVP-type numbers if he were an obsessed redass. But people are what they are, and I think Dunn's positives outweigh his negatives, and overall he helps the team.
Today Sal is CEO of the Middleton Doll Company Link.
A less muscular a$$hole?
Without looking at VORP leaders during that time period, I'm going to assume he's been at or near the top each of the last 4 seasons.
I don't picture Hank as hogging the STFU juice.
I think this is actually a lot more common than most fans would think if they ever gave it much thought, which why would they.
Well, I figure how could a guy succeed at that level without some attention to his craft. I guess I would be wrong, it's possible to pretty much not give a sh!t and still succeed.
I'm sure Harveys is not the least bit surprised.
I think that's probably the wrong way to look at it. How many of us posting here find our job to be the most interesting thing in the world, such that there's NOTHING else we'd rather be doing? And how many of us are adequate or better at our jobs? Baseball may just be a job to the guy, but it doesn't mean he doesn't give a ####.
With respect to baseball players, I care about their talent level. I care about their fitness and willingness to prepare physically and mentally for the games. I care about them playing hard and giving their best effort during games. I don't find myself caring so much about their bellyfire. Sure, it'd be nice if they eat/sleep/breath baseball, and you can argue that a guy who loves what he does will be more likely to excel at the non-talent aspects I describe above. But I'd rather have a really good player who treats it like a job over a passionate guy who sucks. Jeff Kent is an ass who doesn't even like baseball, but he's put together a HOF career and been on plenty of winning teams.
" I don’t know the clown. I don’t know, and you can use the word ‘clown’ if you like.
I’ve seen it, I haven’t heard it. I really don’t care what one guy thinks, to be honest with you. If I’m a G.M., I don’t know that I’d go out of my way to discredit a player -- if I’m a player. He’s obviously won more than me, I guess. Or hasn’t. I know nothing about him.
The players didn’t say anything, it’s just some clown sitting in a front office pushing paper. I don’t play for any other reason than the guys here. I’ve said it all along, it doesn’t bother me what people say or think, especially someone outside of the organization who has no idea of anything that goes on here. He’s not even in our country. This guy’s in another country talking ****.
He felt like he needed to say it for some reason, I have no idea why and I don’t care. He could be in this clubhouse right now, I wouldn’t know. I couldn’t tell you his name, what he looks like – he’s got a big mouth, that’s all I know about him.
I read it, I just read it. I don’t care. He doesn’t have to use my name, use someone else’s name. I’m not taking up for him, because I don’t care about him. I don’t know who he is. I’m not going to sit here and defend someone who’s going to sit there and say I don’t care about baseball. It pisses me off, to be honest with you. He doesn’t even know me. If he knew me, fine. Say what you want. But this guy doesn’t know anything about me other than what he sees on whatever SportsCenter they have on up there. That’s it.
It pisses me off. It does. I just told you it pisses me off when people who have no idea what the **** goes on around here and then say – I don’t give a **** what people say in this clubhouse, I don’t care, besides what’s said in here. I don’t care about the perception people have of me, if anything happens, it looks like I ain’t going to Toronto. I can eliminate one team.
I’m not converting my dollars into looneys and twoneys just yet. They’re really good, actually."
http://www.thelotd.com/ctrent/blog/2008/06/19/dunn_i_dont_know_the_clown
In sum, JP burns the bridge for a good FA possibility, for no good reason. Dunn is in Toronto next week for interleague. This will be entertaining.
I hope Dunn doesn't think poorly on Canada. JP is a Masshole through and through.
I also think its hilarious that Dunn is giving good managerial advice to JP Ricciardi.
Do you think Dunn even knows who JP is?
Dunn: "I don’t know the clown...he could be in this clubhouse right now, I wouldn’t know. I couldn’t tell you his name, what he looks like."
That's one for me!
I had Dunn as my dark horse NL MVP candidate and while he's been ok the team has really struggled which surprises me.
But anyway, JP really comes across as a goofball of the highest order.
in post #41 was immediately followed with a post from kevin.
And yet probably finds playing with dolls boring. How do you figure a guy like that?
What the Good Face said but also, I think it's possible to be interested in the individual aspects of a profession or job without being that interested in the whole. I'm fascinated by the process of writing for newspapers, magazines, etc., but other than worrying about the health and survival of publications I work for, the publishing business isn't interesting to me. I worked at a mailbox rental/packing/shipping place (like Mailboxes etc.) in college, and the owner, who had previously owned a dress shop, told me that he just loved starting and running a business. He didn't care about mail, and also hadn't cared about dresses. I think that's pretty common in business too.
So a ballplayer might be fascinated by the challenge of hitting, say, without necessarily getting into the game as a whole. I've had that experience myself with golf. As a sport/game, it's beyond boring to me. But the challenge of hitting shots well myself, trying to beat playmates, etc., is interesting to me. (But not interesting enough to justify the expense of pursuing it.)
If Ricciardi should be fired, it's because he's not good at assembling a baseball team. For expressing disdain for people who play the game without love for it, he gets a total pass from me, and maybe a little respect.
The difference I'm keying on is that these aren't just jobs like you and I have. These guys are competing at the very highest levels for very desirable jobs. How could you have such a job without attention to detail? The hard part for a fan is knowing what details are important. I would expect Dunn to know who the leading hitters in the NL were if I were his manager, but then I'm not his manager for a pretty good reason (I don't know sh!t).
As a side note, I'm pretty sure if there were a list of the current best computer programmers printed in the paper every day, I'd be looking at it. It would be a rare bird who wouldn't.
$$$
you are correct, i wish i had been with the skill and testicles to play MLB. no question.
but there are a lot of people who consider playing baseball a job, their profession and do at least a decent job at it.
but the fans prefer someone who has enthusiasm and passion to someone who is a much better player who looks at playing baseball as any job. actually i really think this whole thing is the entire reason behind so many people who really REALLY think baseball players shouldn't be paid more than basically minimum wage. even they should be doing it for free.
You're not a very good host, are you? 8-)
As far as who I root for, no question. If I were to learn, definitively, that Dunn doesn't love the game, I'd be less inclined to root for him. I wrote of Jeff Kent long before I learned what a world class jerk he is only because I read quotes in which he expressed the sentiments that Dunn is accused of. However, I understand that someone may do a job that wouldn't be their first choice - hell, most people are probably doing jobs that aren't their first choice. I am. Most of the people I work with are. That doesn't mean we don't like what we're doing or don't take it seriously.
I do know that there is no reason a GM should go out in public and trash players. He also shouldn't weigh it to heavily in who to obtain. If you could get prime Jeff Kent or some AAAA 2Bman who loves the game, you should get Kent.
So, I think the attitude against JP isn't that we like the idea that Dunn doesn't love the game as much as us, just that it was a classless thing to say (even if accurate, but especially if inaccurate) and is a dumb way to do evaluations. At least, that is where I'm coming from.
Why? Knowing that stuff wouldn't make him better at his job. Knowing the NL pitchers is another story.
He does play defense, doesn't he? It would help him to know hitters on other teams for that reason alone.
I think most of us realize that we're on the extreme edge of baseball fandom around here and so we don't throw stones at folks who aren't.
I don't think it's unreasonable to expect the 750 guys who are in the majors at any given time to come exclusively from the pool of fans of the game.
but there are a lot of people who consider playing baseball a job, their profession and do at least a decent job at it
I can't believe I'm the only one who hasn't outgrown railing at the universal injustice of this. I love the game so much I pay money to play it every year. The idea that there are people who have to drag themselves out of bed and shlump down to the baseball mills is cartoonish in its unfairness. I would sell children for the opportunity to endure that hardship. Not my own children, but still...
That's what the coaches are for. Not in a bad way either, just that one person is responsible for positioning the OFs. If each outfielder positioned himself based on his knowledge about the hitters, it would be a mess.
Also, this is insulting and just rubbing my nose in it. Most sportswriters, I imagine, would rather have Dunn's job than their own. I would guess it was love of the sport that put them there in the first place. No, they don't go home and watch sportswriters. They go home and watch baseball because they weren't given your talent, you insensitive jackass.
If I'm about to hand a guy a 7 year guaranteed contract that, absent the Cecil Fielder Financial Management® plan, will ensure that he doesn't need to work another day in his life, I want to know damn sure what motivates him to keep working. Does he love his job? Is he driven to be the best at everything he does? Does he have his eye on his place in history? Does he crave being worshipped by fans?
Or will he be just as happy sitting on his ass eating Doritos and watching fishing shows on TV?
Here's a guy who already has a history of indifference to conditioning, even without a long term contract. What happens when his body starts to break down and he needs to do extensive, boring physical therapy to even get back on the field, much less be as good as he was before?
Dunn's an excellent hitter who could help a team win games, but these uncertainties really have to be factored into the calculations when offering him a contract. Now, it seems insane that they would reduce his value to zero, but I'm sure some GMs just shorten "We doubt he'll sign for what we think he's worth" to "We're not going to pursue him."
Of course, Ricciardi made his comments in response to a question about trading for Dunn, so unless he's just skipping over some steps ("We're not going to win this year even with him, and he's too expensive to trade for unless we can extend him, and we don't want to extend him because...") this analysis is beside the point and J.P. is just being stupid.
Do you really think people are that interested in computer programmers?? I'd be hard pressed to think of something I care less about.
Oh come the #### on!
You think there are aren't people in the world who wouldn't "sell children" to be in your situation Shtick? If you're like the rest of Primer, you're white, well educated, and your household is making somewhere in the neighborhood of $60 to $120 K a year. Even if that's not you, you obviously have the resources to access the Internet and free time enough to argue about baseball, a past time.
I'd say there's a good chunk of the world's population who would love to have your life just as much as you'd love to have Adam Dunn's. Do you thank creation every day for all that you've got? Or do you spend time wishing you were a ball player?
It's simply human nature for us to want something more. It's not bad. But it doesn't make Adam Dunn an insensitive jackass if he isn't completely satisfied with his job, just because you think you would be.
I think the point is that other computer progammers would be interested in this.
Also, yeah, I agree with #87. So my boyhood dreams of playing baseball and having a pet dolphin aren't going to come true. I'm over it.
When Delgado was around, fans would call in screaming about how every HR Delgado hits is a solo shot and blah blah, but, he still continues to call in and face the retards. I think he deserves some credit for that as not many (any?) other GM's have the stones to do the same thing.
But his comment about Dunn was really dumb and I am eagerly awaiting our new GM...
Absolutely. It can't be easy to listen to the idiots week after week, year after year. It's not like I don't have sympathy for J.P. He effed up is all, but, unfortunately, he's not in a position where he can eff up like that publically. Being a gm is a tough, tough job.
Nor watching them try to compete in the AL East.
Best Regards
John
Just substitute "computer programmer" for your profession and then get back to me. Or are you one of Lee Elia's 15%? 8-)
I expect that most professional baseball players get bored watching baseball. They are active, athletic men, and most active, athletic men would rather do something than watch someone else do it.
I think the point is that other computer progammers would be interested in this.
Nah, it would probably be based on old, discredited stats like KLOCs or all-nighters pulled, or dumb scouting reports full of clichés about clutch compiling and having a good desktop.
It's simply human nature for us to want something more. It's not bad. But it doesn't make Adam Dunn an insensitive jackass if he isn't completely satisfied with his job, just because you think you would be.
It looks to me like you answered your own question, which is confusing to me. For the record, do I thank creation or wish I was a ball player? Both. They're not mutually exclusive, as you point out in your next sentence. I don't spend all day wallowing in bitterness, but a little of it rises to the surface when I read about guys like Dunn.
Adam Dunn telling a sportswriter he isn't satisfied with his job is, to me, like grousing about the slowness of your DSL connection right in the face of somebody who you know has dial-up. I stand by the insensitive jackass statement.
So my boyhood dreams of playing baseball and having a pet dolphin aren't going to come true. I'm over it.
I have a pet dolphin. I asked for a pony. I feed it enough to keep it alive, but I don't care anything about it and would just as soon have the extra space in my pool.
The guys in the bullpen usually look bored out of their minds.
We're not selling gene-sequencers here...
I missed this. When did he say he wasn't satisfied with his job?
edit: it's A-Rod, Damon and Mauer as of today.
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