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Sunday, January 26, 2020

Justin Turner on Astros’ 2017 World Series Title: ‘It’s Hard to Feel They Earned It’

The Dodgers are speaking out on the Astros sign-stealing scandal less than two weeks after Major League Baseball confirmed Houston cheated during the 2017 and 2018 seasons.

At Dodgers FanFest on Saturday, third baseman Justin Turner said it’s been hard to relive old emotions after hearing about the Astros saga. Los Angeles lost to Houston in seven games in the 2017 World Series.

“We know how hard it is to win a World Series,” Turner said. “We know that it’s something you really have to earn, and with the commissioner’s report and the evidence and what they had, it’s hard to feel like they earned it and they earned the right to be called champions.”

Turner added that he hasn’t spoken to any Astros players and wasn’t sure why former Houston pitcher Dallas Keuchel apologized for the club stealing signs.

With feelings running like this, the coming season should get rather…..interesting.....

QLE Posted: January 26, 2020 at 12:50 AM | 25 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
  Tags: dirty rotten cheaters, dodgers, justin turner

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   1. The Duke Posted: January 26, 2020 at 08:11 AM (#5919323)

If I were the dodgers, I’d bring a trashcan into the dugout and bang it each time before they throw a high and tight fastball to Altuve and Bregman. It would be fun to see them react
   2. flournoy Posted: January 26, 2020 at 08:56 AM (#5919327)
It would be fun to see them react


They wouldn't. And when asked about it afterward, they'd claim to not have heard it.
   3. Astroenteritis Posted: January 26, 2020 at 11:24 AM (#5919341)
This is heart rending. I'm starting to actually feel sorry for the Dodgers...uh...no, not really.
   4. depletion Posted: January 26, 2020 at 08:34 PM (#5919442)
The olympic games had no trouble pulling Ben Johnson's gold medal and giving it to Carl Lewis. On the other hand, when the International Cycling Union pulled Lance Armstrong's wins, those awards were not given to the second place cyclists. I'd have no problem with MLB pulling the Astro's world series and AL titles, even if they didn't award them to the Dodgers or Yankees.
   5. Howie Menckel Posted: January 26, 2020 at 09:10 PM (#5919447)
the Yankees brought Carlos Beltran into their baseball operations for the 2018 season. he didn't tell them anything?
   6. PreservedFish Posted: January 26, 2020 at 10:31 PM (#5919459)
I'd have no problem with MLB pulling the Astro's world series and AL titles, even if they didn't award them to the Dodgers or Yankees.


I would.

And recordkeeping in cycling is now a sick joke.
   7. Booey Posted: January 26, 2020 at 10:49 PM (#5919461)
Whitewashing history and pretending that something didn't happen is always the wrong move. The ICU, NCAA, and other organizations that have tried to retroactively erase controversial accomplishments just ended up making themselves look foolish, and made their sport look like a glorified rec league. People are free to attach their own mental asterisks if they want, but the sports themselves can't use those Men In Black flashy thingy's to make everyone who saw what happened forget about it. Just dole out the appropriate punishments to serve as a deterrent for future potential cheaters and move on. What happened happened.

Honestly, I'd probably give up on baseball if they took away anyone's championships, same as I would have if they'd erased PED fueled records. Part of the appeal of sports (to me) is the permanence of the numbers. You KNOW when you're witnessing history right off the bat. You don't need to wait for years to see if it holds up to revisionist scrutiny.
   8. Walt Davis Posted: January 26, 2020 at 11:49 PM (#5919471)
People are free to attach their own mental asterisks if they want

People shouldn't have to look up history to verify whether the 1987 NCAA men's champs cheated or whether some 23-7 team was shaving points. I certainly have no problem with a league voiding a championship or retroactively forfeiting a team's games for breaking rules. I'm more reluctant to re-award the championship -- e.g. even if they were to void the 2017 title, why should it go to the Dodgers when (in theory) it should have been a Yanks-Dodgers WS? That said, I also don't care if a league wants to leave the "official" record as is.

This isn't deciding that, say, should some president actually be removed from office that the history books erase his election and pretend nobody was president for the time before their removal. It's freaking sports and MLB's decision on who to award a trophy to (and potentially who to take it back from).

And really, you think the public perception of the NCAA is a glorified rec league? If anything, the continued success of the NCAA -- and the fact it's been able to keep everybody else playing along with the amateur fiction -- is a reason to change the record books. Do you think folks stumble across some BC basketball game and think "I will never fortive them for the 1978-79 point shaving scandal!" The only way to keep from "pretending something didn't happen" is by making it clear that something did happen, it possibly affected the outcome and therefore a title or wins were taken away. You want it forgotten ASAP then don't take away the title and, when they win their next one, hope everybody agrees to call it their second title. The 20, 30, 40 years from now, almost nobody will think about the Astros cheating. "Astros get title stripped away" would be remembered for the remaining history of baseball much like "Pete Rose banned" is still discussed every year.
   9. Booey Posted: January 27, 2020 at 12:20 AM (#5919474)
I didn't say anything about public perception. I think the NCAA is a joke. Obviously plenty of others disagree, and that's fine. But thousands of fans saw the Astros win that World Series and a lot of people attended that parade. Taking away their trophy a few years later can't change any of that.
   10. Blastin Posted: January 27, 2020 at 06:03 AM (#5919480)
Astros fan laughs, Mets fan whatabouttheyankees.

   11. ERROR---Jolly Old St. Nick Posted: January 27, 2020 at 08:00 AM (#5919485)
Retroactively taking away championships is nothing but cheap virtue signaling. Fine the players proven to have been involved, suspend the managers and other guilty non-players, take away their draft choices and international signings, and ban all monitors and phones from the dugout, clubhouse and bullpen. If that's not enough to deter future cheaters, then I don't know what could. Certainly altering the record books isn't going to be any tipping point.
   12. McCoy Posted: January 27, 2020 at 08:12 AM (#5919489)
If you're going to do all that you might as well take the championship away as well.
   13. PreservedFish Posted: January 27, 2020 at 08:19 AM (#5919490)
I had hoped that the death of OT:P would also spell the end of the use of the phrase "virtue signaling" around here.
   14. BillWallace Posted: January 27, 2020 at 11:41 AM (#5919565)
Whitewashing history and pretending that something didn't happen is always the wrong move.


I don't agree. I'm in support of these actions. I agree you can't re-award the title, but I like the idea that the cheating team has technically forfeited their title. The casual fan can say the Astros won and we don't need to care if a pedant is nearby to correct them, and everyone is free to remember that they won the games by scoring more runs which is what they saw with their eyes. But the official record books will reflect that they cheated, and however important you think that is or isn't, it's something. It would certainly be something to the Astros themselves, who have to live knowing that their achievement is officially not. Which is exactly as it should be.

The reason in particular that the NCAA vacatings (vacations?) may seem like more of a joke is because it usually has to do with recruiting violations, which everyone knows is a massive joke across the entire sport anyway.

virtue signaling


Silly. Unlike PF I think the concept of virtue signalling is useful, but this isn't it.
   15. PreservedFish Posted: January 27, 2020 at 11:48 AM (#5919569)
It may be a useful concept, but it must be used non-usefully about 95% of the time.
   16. Jeremy Renner App is Dead and I killed it Posted: January 27, 2020 at 11:55 AM (#5919574)
Aren't the Dodgers getting pretty open about this issue because multiple teams are really unhappy on how they think the Astros got off easy? Don't get the sense that MLB put this thing to bed.
   17. Rusty Priske Posted: January 27, 2020 at 12:57 PM (#5919613)
Stripping them of the title would be stupid.

Could someone tell me that last team to win the World Series without cheating?

The real answer is never. The question is, which rules do you consider important enough to enforce and which do you not? I am all for coming down hard on them (which they DID), and taking steps to stop it from happening again (which they have not), but stripping them of their titles would be as stupid as keeping Barry Bonds and Roger Clemens out of the Hall of Fame.
   18. Moses Taylor, glorified meat shield Posted: January 27, 2020 at 01:05 PM (#5919615)
Aren't the Dodgers getting pretty open about this issue because multiple teams are really unhappy on how they think the Astros got off easy? Don't get the sense that MLB put this thing to bed.

Aren't we getting all these stories now, as various teams have their fanfests and it's the first time the players are getting publicly asked these questions? IOW, I don't see this as much as Turner complaining or whatever as much as just finally having to answer something on the record. There'll be another round at the beginning of ST, and maybe again at the start of the season. It'll be a topic locally any time someone faces the Astros (or Red Sox). And obviously whenever MLB announces the Red Sox penalties.

I think we have to wait and see if it's put to bed or not until the natural wave of these news cycles subsides.
   19. What did Billy Ripken have against ElRoy Face? Posted: January 27, 2020 at 01:12 PM (#5919618)
Could someone tell me that last team to win the World Series without cheating?

The real answer is never.
That's a remarkably certain statement.
   20. Mayor Blomberg Posted: January 27, 2020 at 01:49 PM (#5919631)
Could someone tell me that last team to win the World Series without cheating?

The real answer is never.

That's a remarkably certain statement.


It also reeks of the "but-other-people-were-speeding-too" defense, which isn't one.
   21. BillWallace Posted: January 27, 2020 at 02:33 PM (#5919657)
I think the comparison between PEDs and this cheating is apt. I also do think the 'everyone was doing it' defense is legitimate in some circumstances

This is illuminating for me because I come down on opposite sides.

For PEDs, I don't think the players who did it pre-rule change should be punished because I believe the culture of baseball at the time all but encouraged players to do this, with the owners and league office being fully complicit. I sympathize with with the clean players, but I place the blame with the league itself. The unspoken guidance to the players seems to have been more or less 'go ahead and do it, just be discreet'.

However, unless there's more reporting on this to be done, and I reserve the right to change my mind based on new info, I don't believe the culture of baseball encouraged or accepted what the Astros were doing. I think that's fairly clear if you have an understanding of competitive athletics in general, and it's further revealed by the reactions of a lot of the players to what's happened.

The Astros were doing something that they knew, and they knew their fellow players would know, was wrong. And they should be punished.
   22. Karl from NY Posted: January 27, 2020 at 03:11 PM (#5919675)
Aren't the Dodgers getting pretty open about this issue because multiple teams are really unhappy on how they think the Astros got off easy?

I think it's only the teams who think they have something to gain at the Astros' expense that are really complaining. Teams that weren't involved don't really want a harsh punishment, it'd set a precedent that might someday come back around to their own franchises.
   23. Booey Posted: January 27, 2020 at 03:21 PM (#5919678)
I don't think anyone is arguing that the Astros shouldn't be punished. They absolutely should (and they have been). I think the debate is mostly around whether that punishment should include forfeiting their championship, the idea of which sounds...well, fake, to me. It happened. It sucks, but it happened. IMO a blank line on a list of champions (f*** you, 1994!) is worse than a tainted one.
   24. Rusty Priske Posted: January 27, 2020 at 03:49 PM (#5919685)
Could someone tell me that last team to win the World Series without cheating?

The real answer is never.

That's a remarkably certain statement.


Ask any pitcher what percentage of pitchers break the rules every game.

If it isn't 100%, it is awfully close to it.

I am not saying they didn't break the rules and that they shouldn't be punished, but some people are acting like they are the Black Sox. They aren't. They were trying to get an advantage like every other team does. They got caught. More effort should be going into stopping this from being possible, rather than rending our garments about those evil cheaters.
   25. Sunday silence Posted: January 27, 2020 at 07:43 PM (#5919766)
...and it's further revealed by the reactions of a lot of the players to what's happened.



Is it? THe reaction of baseball players seems to be equivocal.

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