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Friday, November 19, 2021

Keith Hernandez Promotes Robert Kennedy Jr.‘s Anti-Vaccine Book on Twitter

Former New York Mets great and current broadcaster Keith Hernandez made his Twitter private on Friday after the swift backlash he faced for promoting anti-vaccine conspiracy theories. Hernandez posted a tweet promoting noted anti-vax champion Robert Kennedy Jr.‘s new book.

A segment of the Amazon write-up for the book reads as follows:

The Real Anthony Fauci details how Fauci, Gates, and their cohorts use their control of media outlets, scientific journals, key government and quasi-governmental agencies, global intelligence agencies, and influential scientists and physicians to flood the public with fearful propaganda about COVID-19 virulence and pathogenesis, and to muzzle debate and ruthlessly censor dissent.

 

RoyalsRetro (AG#1F) Posted: November 19, 2021 at 04:38 PM | 237 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
  Tags: keith hernandez

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   1. winnipegwhip Posted: November 19, 2021 at 04:47 PM (#6053605)
Nice tweet pretty boy!!!!
   2. Adam Starblind Posted: November 19, 2021 at 05:25 PM (#6053612)
#CancelKeith
   3. What did Billy Ripken have against ElRoy Face? Posted: November 19, 2021 at 05:37 PM (#6053614)
Now I'm definitely not helping him move.
   4. salvomania Posted: November 19, 2021 at 05:48 PM (#6053616)
So what's the supposed end game? Government control via chips or modified DNA?
   5. we all water; we all 57i66135 Posted: November 19, 2021 at 05:55 PM (#6053620)
to muzzle debate and ruthlessly censor dissent
so, the problem here is that these people know what any of these words mean.
   6. Mayor Blomberg Posted: November 19, 2021 at 06:14 PM (#6053624)
The chips are a temporary fix until the DNA reprogramming is perfected and shown able to be inherited. Try to keep up. ;)
   7. Arch Stanton Posted: November 19, 2021 at 06:21 PM (#6053625)
I'm lazy and using Wikipedia, but I repeat myself.

So...this guy...

Herzog said he felt that Hernandez had become a cancer on his team and never regretted the trade.

Hernandez, after the trade, said that he believed his cocaine use while playing for the team was the impetus for the trade and that he even played a game while under its influence (although he couldn't remember which game).


...this guy...

Hernandez said, "Who is the girl in the dugout, with the long hair? What's going on here? You have got to be kidding me. Only player personnel in the dugout." After Hernandez was informed later in the broadcast that Calabrese was a club employee, he maintained his position, stating, "I won't say that women belong in the kitchen, but they don't belong in the dugout."


...this guy is an asshat? Shocking.
   8. The Duke Posted: November 19, 2021 at 07:12 PM (#6053634)
Luckily no one thinks this clear HOFr (to me) is a HOFr so his chances can’t get any worse
   9. Howie Menckel Posted: November 19, 2021 at 07:16 PM (#6053635)
searching in vain for baseball-related content here
   10. Pat Rapper's Delight (as quoted on MLB Network) Posted: November 19, 2021 at 09:27 PM (#6053644)
Who does this guy think he is?
   11. Lassus Posted: November 19, 2021 at 09:42 PM (#6053645)
The thread police, they live inside of your head...
   12. Mayor Blomberg Posted: November 19, 2021 at 09:56 PM (#6053648)
9 - Keith Hernandez, ballplayer/announcer/commentator. This site has been known to post articles on former players when they're in the news -- for dying, crimes, and when when they do them, worthwhile things. You new here?
   13. Howie Menckel Posted: November 19, 2021 at 10:06 PM (#6053650)
much of the BBTF community has disappeared, in part, because they want to come here to talk about things like postseason awards - but instead find posters who prefer to bloviate about other issues that have nothing to do with baseball.

thankfully, much of that vitriol has been relegated to another internet channel where, I suspect, there may be robust discussion on such a topic. and I support their right to off-site chatter.

you new here? I've been around for more than 20 years

no dying or crimes
   14. cardsfanboy Posted: November 19, 2021 at 10:51 PM (#6053655)
much of the BBTF community has disappeared, in part, because they want to come here to talk about things like postseason awards - but instead find posters who prefer to bloviate about other issues that have nothing to do with baseball.

thankfully, much of that vitriol has been relegated to another internet channel where, I suspect, there may be robust discussion on such a topic. and I support their right to off-site chatter.

you new here? I've been around for more than 20 years

no dying or crimes


No they really haven't, the medium has changed, the disappearance is more about how we work with the internet, more and more people are going to phones and such, which doesn't really work with a web based discussion group like bbtf, this isn't about bbtf, it's internet wide. Discussion groups have been disappearing everywhere, and it has nothing to do with shifting ideologies. BBTF was one of the first to actively cull bloviation. The people who have disappeared are the people who wanted to talk more about issues outside of baseball, you have it factually wrong in this case.
   15. SoSH U at work Posted: November 19, 2021 at 11:16 PM (#6053657)
much of the BBTF community has disappeared, in part, because they want to come here to talk about things like postseason awards - but instead find posters who prefer to bloviate about other issues that have nothing to do with baseball.


The dispatch of the OT-Politics to some other locale has done nothing to stop the migration away from this place. If anything, it's hastened it. The existence of off topics has never been something that's driven people away.

As for the topic, it's nice that Keith provides these occasional reminders that, despite his talents in the booth, he remains quite the moron.
   16. Lassus Posted: November 19, 2021 at 11:56 PM (#6053659)
much of the BBTF community has disappeared, in part, because they want to come here to talk about things like postseason awards - but instead find posters who prefer to bloviate about other issues that have nothing to do with baseball.

I'm not new here, I'm on year 15. This assertion is complete horseshit.

SoSH, as always, is a nicer, better person than I am.
   17. The Duke Posted: November 19, 2021 at 11:58 PM (#6053660)
I’m just curious - where does everyone go when they leave ?
   18. cardsfanboy Posted: November 20, 2021 at 12:35 AM (#6053663)
I’m just curious - where does everyone go when they leave ?


That is the point I was trying to make, they don't leave here to go someplace else, they just fade away. People aren't leaving bbtf to go somewhere else, the medium has changed. Interenet discussion groups is not as popular anymore, it's not about finding a better place, it's about just not bothering to do this any more.
   19. SoSH U at work Posted: November 20, 2021 at 12:43 AM (#6053664)
I agree with CFB. Other than the people who left specifically because OT-P got shuttered and relocated to discord (something like that), I'm not aware of any other site that disaffected Primates have found.
   20. Ron J Posted: November 20, 2021 at 01:47 AM (#6053667)
#18/19 There's a discord community that includes most of the OTP regulars.

EDIT: It's pretty active.
   21. Never Give an Inge (Dave) Posted: November 20, 2021 at 06:24 AM (#6053675)
A few posters started their own blogs/communities (I recall there was a Yankees one that did game chatters, right?). I don’t think any of those still exist.

Some former posters are active on Twitter. But they certainly didn’t leave here because of the politics, since some of them Tweet about politics all the time.
   22. Hombre Brotani Posted: November 20, 2021 at 07:49 AM (#6053677)
I’m just curious - where does everyone go when they leave ?
There's an endless number of team-specific forums. SB Nation pages have chatter and news. Fangraphs has chatters and news. Facebook fan pages have chatters and news. For streamers, there's live chatter right on the page. The in-game chatter and post-game news that generated so much of the BTF banter, you can now go anywhere for that. We're not special anymore.

People leave because they want to talk about their team, not 29 others, and they don't want to deal with the analytics-heavy conversations that are the norm here. Just about no one leaves because of politics.
   23. Captain Joe Bivens, Elderly Northeastern Jew Posted: November 20, 2021 at 10:49 AM (#6053688)
This assertion is complete horseshit.


I'm sure he hears that a lot.
   24. Captain Joe Bivens, Elderly Northeastern Jew Posted: November 20, 2021 at 11:38 AM (#6053692)
I'll assert that if the article led to a discussion where Dr. Fauci was called a fraud, Howie wouldn't type a single word in protest.
   25. Mayor Blomberg Posted: November 20, 2021 at 12:11 PM (#6053699)
21 - Replacement Level Yankees is still up; I've found the baseball discussion on this site more interesting in part because more comprehensive.
   26. The Duke Posted: November 20, 2021 at 01:02 PM (#6053709)
I find this site pretty illuminating. And I like full 30 team Discussion. I can’t for the life of me figure out how to live cut and paste someone’s else comment and respond to it, but that’s me. I’m also a hall of fame nut, so this place really appeals to me. Team blogs don’t care for historical discussions or hall of fame discussions
   27. John Northey Posted: November 20, 2021 at 01:20 PM (#6053713)
This is a fun site to go to for general baseball stuff. Things like this aren't a problem - I'm always curious what happened to players from way back when. Be it doing charity work, or being jerks. If every other article was that then it'd be dull, but if I don't care for the subject I don't open the article. Just keep scrolling. Most of my baseball thoughts end up on BattersBox.ca nowadays but that is a Blue Jays centred site, when I want to read and/or chat about general baseball this is where I go.
   28. DanG Posted: November 20, 2021 at 02:39 PM (#6053730)
Robert Kennedy Jr.‘s new book
corbett report has a lengthy interview with the author
   29. The Duke Posted: November 20, 2021 at 03:44 PM (#6053739)
It’s amazing to me how screwed up one well to do family can be. Even Arnold succumbed to the curse and he’s a Great man
   30. phredbird Posted: November 20, 2021 at 03:56 PM (#6053742)

i've been here longer than just about anyone, and agree with CFB and disagree very much with howie.

it's been off and on for me through the years. bbtf was more enjoyable back in the good old days (even though we had people like kevin and YR and Joey), which of course differ from person to person.

one of the reasons i spent a lot of time on BBTF was because of down time at my workplace, which i hated by the time i quit -- so i avoided stress by hanging around BBTF.

i'm retired now, and have found that i have a real life that involves staying away from the computer most of the day. i found out that i had stuff to do besides reading sugar bear shooting blanks and other knuckleheads who i didn't have the time or inclination or rhetorical skills to argue with.

i spend a lot of time now on instagram, but mostly because i use it as a marketing tool for a personal business that has grown out of my second career. so i guess CFB has a point. i don't even have a decent website anymore ...
   31. Hombre Brotani Posted: November 20, 2021 at 04:34 PM (#6053751)
i'm retired now, and have found that i have a real life that involves staying away from the computer most of the day. i found out that i had stuff to do besides reading sugar bear shooting blanks and other knuckleheads who i didn't have the time or inclination or rhetorical skills to argue with.
I suspect this is true for a lot of the long-timers here. When I first started up at BTF, I was supposed to be a contributor. Furtado and Szymborski asked me over after SB Nation bought the blog I was doing Angels stuff for. The idea was that BTF would eventually do what those other sites did, except in a general, 30-team sense. There was a time when we actually did weekly division wrap-ups. Does anyone remember those? Those were fun to write, but we didn't do many. The interest just wasn't there. A lot of us were in our early 30s, and juggling jobs and new families. The time crunch was a real thing. (The Angel blog I was supposed to start up here was a casualty of my daughter being born, a change in job status, etc. The general interest essays I was supposed to write? I finished exactly one of those, and it was in serious need of an editor. People still seemed to like it, but I never wrote another one.)

Basically, BTF was supposed to be very similar to what Fangraphs has become, but with more chatter. Obviously, that didn't happen, because it's hard to find good writers who'll do it for free, especially when so many other bigger, branded sites are competing for that same talent. Dan's ZIPS projections were going to be the big thing, but that stuff was too valuable to not attract money, and once Dan's stuff left, BTF eventually settled into what it is, a compiler of interesting links, with chatter that leans towards metrics, a non-unique site that's been crowded out by an endless army of competitors that have eroded BTF's user body. People are always trying to blame stuff-they-don't-like for the decline in this site's popularity, but it's just time and tide. That's just how it goes.
   32. Walt Davis Posted: November 20, 2021 at 04:43 PM (#6053753)
I'm still here cuz ain't no way I can reduce my brilliant insights to 20-second TikTok videos or Twitter's 280 characters. (If there's a social media trend that concerns me, it's the devaluing of ideas/discussion/debate that require more than 1-2 sentences.)
   33. we all water; we all 57i66135 Posted: November 20, 2021 at 04:50 PM (#6053757)
I'm still here cuz ain't no way I can reduce my brilliant insights to 20-second TikTok videos or Twitter's 280 characters. (If there's a social media trend that concerns me, it's the devaluing of ideas/discussion/debate that require more than 1-2 sentences.)

but look how good ya done.
   34. rr: cosmopolitan elite Posted: November 20, 2021 at 04:55 PM (#6053759)
I'll assert that if the article led to a discussion where Dr. Fauci was called a fraud, Howie wouldn't type a single word in protest.


Ha. Highly likely.

One thing I see is that almost all the politics-bait links are posted by RoyalsRetro. That does not bother me; guys can just not click on them. But it still bothers a few. I was an OTP regular for years; Andy has invited me to the Discord OTP site, but I have declined. Like I have said a few times, hardcore OTP guys tend to be:

1. Meta
2. Inflammatory

Most of the guys who are one or both have migrated, so the few remaining, like SBB, YC, Stiggles, Menckel, and RMc, kind of stick out. I myself am in category 1 of those two.
   35. Adam Starblind Posted: November 20, 2021 at 04:58 PM (#6053760)
Sam M. left because he made a mistake about the Federal Rules of Evidence.
   36. Adam Starblind Posted: November 20, 2021 at 05:01 PM (#6053761)
Oh, and it’s not just that people left, it’s that nobody new replaced them. This place looks like a high school project from 1999. If fact, look at the dates of some of the content on the front page — it looks abandoned! The Hall of Merit should have a better home than this.
   37. Never Give an Inge (Dave) Posted: November 20, 2021 at 05:03 PM (#6053763)
Yeah, the main reason the site has declined in popularity or at least stopped growing is because it stopped gaining new members, and the original members have gotten older (or in a few cases, have died).
   38. SoSH U at work Posted: November 20, 2021 at 05:07 PM (#6053764)
As much as I lament the decline, it's worth noting (and pretty remarkable) that the site has been a pretty good place to hang out for 20 years.
   39. Hombre Brotani Posted: November 20, 2021 at 05:13 PM (#6053767)
This place looks like a high school project from 1999
Hey! I was still learning how to craft images for websites at the time! Yeah, it's ugly and all that, but Jim liked it, and the basic layout remains extremely readable even after nearly two decades, so I'll take it.
   40. Adam Starblind Posted: November 20, 2021 at 06:21 PM (#6053773)
Hombre, there wasn’t anything wrong with it *at the time*. It’s just that Jim seems to have moved on with his life and some of us are still here pining for 2004.
   41. Never Give an Inge (Dave) Posted: November 20, 2021 at 06:32 PM (#6053778)
The design is fine (it’s better than many other, more popular websites). But if you really wanted to attract new users today you’d probably need to add the capability to post embedded pictures, video, Tweets, etc. And add a “like” button for posts/comments. And actually promote the site a bit on social media.
   42. The Duke Posted: November 20, 2021 at 06:46 PM (#6053781)
I think this place is a hidden gem that is atrophying. The design may be old but I find it far nicer than sbnation sites. The nightly chatter is fun. It sounds like it needs someone to love it a bit more.

I like just posting articles as opposed to writers having to put out tons of content. Every other sight I visit falls apart when the main writer leaves or burns out. Posting articles is a much better way to ensure continuity. It remains to be seen if fangraphs can survive and pay so many content writers.

It sounds like the biggest issue is that people can’t get their articles posted. But I think the stuff that is posted tends to generate good discussion.


One question I have for those who know how it works. How do fangraphs and BBref manage to keep their stats updated every day during the season ? It would seem you would need an army of people to get data into the system every morning. How did they do it so quickly ?
   43. we all water; we all 57i66135 Posted: November 20, 2021 at 06:51 PM (#6053784)
One question I have for those who know how it works. How do fangraphs and BBref manage to keep their stats updated every day during the season ? It would seem you would need an army of people to get data into the system every morning. How did they do it so quickly ?

here ya go.


i'm sure every site does it differently, but that kind of work is almost entirely automated.
   44. Walt Davis Posted: November 20, 2021 at 08:19 PM (#6053801)
or in a few cases, have died

That hasn't stopped me from posting. :-)
   45. Tin Angel Posted: November 20, 2021 at 08:58 PM (#6053803)
I think this place is great in that it's a small group of people that have, for the most part, been here for many years. That becomes more and more difficult as sites like SB Nation come along, where it's easy to find and anyone that wants to can join in and stir stuff up and try to annoy people...eventually lowering the quality of the conversation and driving the best commenters away. Or just adding pointless emojis. On the Giants SB Nation site a random May game thread has 1000 comments, about 20 of which are interesting.

My only complaints are a lack of moderating (specifically in reference to timely articles getting posted/double posted), and posting on a phone/trying to quote previous comments is pretty rough. I definitely would not want something where you can post images, "like" comments, etc. Every other site has that, it's nice to get away from it.
   46. Mayor Blomberg Posted: November 20, 2021 at 09:10 PM (#6053804)
I definitely would not want something where you can post images

yep. with all due respect, I've seen enough images of Madeline Albright
   47. The Duke Posted: November 20, 2021 at 09:39 PM (#6053809)
The like button would be a definite downgrade and images are worse although embedded tweets are good (not sure if you can have one without the other).
   48. Hombre Brotani Posted: November 20, 2021 at 10:07 PM (#6053815)
with all due respect, I've seen enough images of Madeline Albright
Don't kink-shame.
   49. Ziggy: social distancing since 1980 Posted: November 20, 2021 at 10:38 PM (#6053820)
they don't want to deal with the analytics-heavy conversations that are the norm here


Too bad that they're missing out. The analytics-heavy conversations here are basically the reason that I started paying attention to baseball again (c. 2001), after swearing it off during the strike. I love that you can actually study baseball. And I still enjoy talking about this stuff with you folks, 20 years later. What I miss is the original research that used to be presented here. Remember Primate Studies? I know that they rubbed some people the wrong way, but I really liked having Tango and Lichtman around.
   50. Tom Nawrocki Posted: November 20, 2021 at 11:13 PM (#6053821)
much of the BBTF community has disappeared, in part, because they want to come here to talk about things like postseason awards - but instead find posters who prefer to bloviate about other issues that have nothing to do with baseball.


I wish we could go back to the good old days, when the legendarily longest thread was about Petco.

The biggest problem isn't that people get driven away; people leave sites for all kinds of reasons, such as death. The biggest problem is that we get so few new posters.
   51. Hombre Brotani Posted: November 20, 2021 at 11:57 PM (#6053822)
What I miss is the original research that used to be presented here.
Having those guys and ZIPS lent BTF an awful lot of clout in the old days. People would come here for the numbers and the links, and stay for the sparring in the comments. People don't leave because of arguments. People love the arguments.
   52. Infinite Yost (Voxter) Posted: November 21, 2021 at 08:21 AM (#6053826)
I'm 41 years old now. I was still in college when I started posting on old Primer, pre-registration days. I kind of come and go from this place, as my interest in baseball waxes and wanes and I get more and less busy. But I keep coming back, because it's comfortable and there are still illuminating discussions most days.

I agree that nobody was driven away. I think what happened, really, were Twitter and Facebook showed up, and that's where a lot of people spend their time now. Two of my brothers used to post here, but neither of them does anymore, mostly because they've quit paying attention to baseball and started paying attention to their real lives. I think that's probably the story for most of the old-timers who aren't around anymore.

There was a brief period where it looked like BBTF was going to make the jump to Web 2.0. I was supposed to start one of those team-specific blogs, too (the Mariners, as I recall), and there was even a beta mobile site for a while, but those things never went anywhere. I never wrote anything about the Mariners, Jim moved on with his life, and then so did I.

I think it's kind of remarkable this place is still as busy as it is. I used to frequent another forum kind of like this but dedicated to television. It's dead as a doornail now; nobody ever posts there at all. I think that's the story of most of the old chat boards. They're not really what people want anymore.
   53. Never Give an Inge (Dave) Posted: November 21, 2021 at 08:46 AM (#6053828)
I’m also in my early 40s and also found this place about 20 years ago. I am a big fan of it and the community here. I go through periods of posting a lot and posting less when things get busy in life or at work. I wasn’t necessarily complaining about the lack of bells and whistles, but that’s probably what you need to attract and keep new people.

FWIW on a data-driven site I do think it would be nice to be able to post charts and graphs. And on a baseball site it would be nice to post the occasional embedded highlight instead of having to post an external link. But if this board became full of memes it would be terrible, so i realize there’s a trade off.
   54. we all water; we all 57i66135 Posted: November 21, 2021 at 09:05 AM (#6053829)
I think it's kind of remarkable this place is still as busy as it is. I used to frequent another forum kind of like this but dedicated to television. It's dead as a doornail now; nobody ever posts there at all. I think that's the story of most of the old chat boards. They're not really what people want anymore.

i mean, why would anyone sign up at dozens of random sites that might only have a few handfuls of regular posters, when they could create an account on reddit or discord and just click a few buttons to join dozens of groups with hundreds of active members.
   55. Dennis Eclairskey, closer Posted: November 21, 2021 at 09:38 AM (#6053830)
I created my account in 2014 but visited the site for a few years before actually creating an account. I remember most of the newsstand stories being posted by Repoz when I found the site and later Jim Furtado and now Royals Retro. I’ve gotten to where I really only comment during award & Hall of Fame voting seasons. I like the simple layout of the site, it serves the purpose it serves but probably doesn’t appeal to new, younger fans hence the community slowly disappearing rather than growing. There are a lot of political & pandemic discussions but that reflects society at the moment. I used to submit a lot articles from a variety of different sites I follow to the newsstand and, in the past, I could count of 100% of those articles appearing in the newsstand. In the past year or two, when I submit to the newsstand, maybe 50% at best wind up appearing on the newsstand. That might have caused a few Primates to leave, I’m not sure but I think it’s a variety of things: people getting older & more focused on families or their careers, losing interest in baseball, death, the politics stuff, other sites popping, etc.
   56. we all water; we all 57i66135 Posted: November 21, 2021 at 10:03 AM (#6053831)
13. Howie Menckel Posted: November 19, 2021 at 10:06 PM (#6053650)
much of the BBTF community has disappeared, in part, because they want to come here to talk about things like postseason awards - but instead find posters who prefer to bloviate about other issues that have nothing to do with baseball.

howie, given that not a single other person in this thread has endorsed this viewpoint, would you care to defend, retract and/or clarify your statement while the conversation is still active?


i'll hang up and listen.
   57. The Duke Posted: November 21, 2021 at 10:25 AM (#6053833)
I was on one site where a subgroup of core posters all went to a slack channel. I’m not sure exactly what that means but I assume it’s just like a chat room but no articles, etc. I would find that limiting. Interestingly the site built a new core group of posters and survived.

The other phenomenon that was interesting was that the site manager said there were 5 or 6 lurkers per poster who logged in every day but never commented so that there was a large community of people reading even though it seemed like it had lost people. Is that true here ?
   58. SoSH U at work Posted: November 21, 2021 at 10:51 AM (#6053835)
The other phenomenon that was interesting was that the site manager said there were 5 or 6 lurkers per poster who logged in every day but never commented so that there was a large community of people reading even though it seemed like it had lost people. Is that true here ?


Duke, if you click on the home page and go to the bottom of the page, you can see summary at any time of day.

Currently there are 33 fearless Primates, 3 anonymous Primates and 152 lurkers viewing the site.

Now, some of those 152 could be Primates who aren't logged in, but that seems to be a pretty steady rate of Primates to lurkers.

Also, I've never known what an anonymous Primate was.

   59. The Duke Posted: November 21, 2021 at 11:02 AM (#6053837)
Thanks - that’s a lot of people on a Sunday morning. Would indicate it’s a pretty active site
   60. Never Give an Inge (Dave) Posted: November 21, 2021 at 11:13 AM (#6053838)
#58 - when you log in it gives you the option to “Remove my name in the online users list” - I assume people who check that box are “anonymous Primates”
   61. Roger McDowell spit on me! Posted: November 21, 2021 at 11:25 AM (#6053839)
I first started here in the pre-registration days, but never posted all that much, and actually found myself coming less and less once OTP left the site. I pop my head in from time to time, but usually not logged in, and usually just do a quick perusal of topics and opinions. The politics stuff never got in the way. I actually check in as much for the OT-Basketball thread as anything these days...
   62. . Posted: November 21, 2021 at 11:42 AM (#6053840)
What drove people away was the increasing, and still increasing, inability of a massive faction here to deal like adults with people of varying political opinions and perspectives.(*) It parallels what's going on in the country as a whole, and in fact the BTF archives are a pretty decent representative case study in how rational debate and rationalism generally withered in the United States between 2002 and 2021.

This will obviously be denied and rationalized, but to any serious observer it's blatantly obvious.

(*) And with it an entire vocabulary and nomenclature of emotionalism and exclusion.
   63. AndrewJ Posted: November 21, 2021 at 11:59 AM (#6053843)
It’s amazing to me how screwed up one well to do family can be.


"Hold our beer." -- the Trumps
   64. Jose Has Absurd Goosebump Arms Posted: November 21, 2021 at 12:04 PM (#6053844)
I think a big part of the problem ysuch that it is is that a lot of what drove this site initially was a "war" between statting and scouting that has largely been concluded. MLB teams have appropriately adopted a lot of those strategies and there is generally agreement on the issues regarding pace and other problems that I think creates a homogeneity of thought that limits discussion because there is nothing to argue about.

Having said all that I find this thread a bit amusing. A number of people are weighing in on this thread about the lack of baseball discussion rather than discussing baseball in one of the many available threads. As SoSH and Duke note the site is actually pretty active as a news aggregator and if people DO want to talk baseball the options exist. I think complaints like #62 are just nonsense. This is a baseball site, complaining about dissatisfaction with the level of political discourse on Baseball Think Factory seems like complaining about the quality of the base running in the Congressional baseball game.

One thing I'll say from a more than slightly self-serving viewpoint is that one thing I would suggest is people could run their own blog within this site pretty easily. I say self-serving because I am one of the people maintaining the Sox Therapy blog here. One of the great things about having a blog within BTF is that there is a built in audience. Additionally you don't have the stress of maintaining your own site and feeling like you have to say something daily or on any schedule, just say something when you want.
   65. The Mighty Quintana Posted: November 21, 2021 at 12:25 PM (#6053845)
Still love the site, and Jose is a big part of that, as is Dan Lee. Everyone sees right thru the "trolls" and calls them on their b.s., so that's a non-starter for me. My only gripe is the infrequent nature of Jack Keefe's posts.
   66. . Posted: November 21, 2021 at 12:58 PM (#6053849)
The complaint was never the *amount* of political discourse and the faction that drove everyone away is perfectly happy injecting politics routinely. The COVID threads at this point are basically therapy sessions.

All the stuff and all the bile that was aimed at Murray Chass BITD eventually became aimed at political "dissenters," and there's a very real overlap between yesterday's saber-committed and today's woke and the underlying animating source of each is also very similar. This year's Baseball Prospectus yearbook read like the 2021 Journal of Wokedom and that's hardly coincidence.

Regardless of how correct it was, there was always a tangible bitterness with scouts and with anyone who ever even remotely stood up for them or the game that empowered them.(*) Once the "battle" was "won" the bitterness moved on to different targets.

(*) The Fire Joe Morgan thing was an abject embarrassment, at least to anyone who could be embarrassed.
   67. Adam Starblind Posted: November 21, 2021 at 12:58 PM (#6053850)
The thing that could bring new (and probably intelligent) users to the site is the Hall of Merit. But it’s tucked away so have to know it’s there if you’re going to find it. It’s original and ambitious and I think it could really drive things.
   68. John Northey Posted: November 21, 2021 at 01:25 PM (#6053853)
An excellent point about how the wars are pretty much over.

Statistical analysis has not just won but taken over completely. Very few talk about 'wins' 'RBI' 'grit' and stuff like that now. The old guard who helped put Jim Rice in the HOF and delayed Bert Blyleven's entry are not involved anymore. Few broadcasters are left who make the old arguments as the new stats show stuff so nicely - things like 'odds of making a catch' which almost always fits the eyeball test, the automatic strike zone which most now want.

Remove the arguments and groups like this lose their luster. Mix in Facebook, Twitter, and the like and old blogs like this are dying off. I still enjoy them, but as I get older I find my time is better spent with my kids and doing boring stuff like cleaning the house. A good political argument can get me going, but not for long anymore - I've matured enough to know that most of whom I'd argue with don't regard facts as relevant anymore so why bother? I'd get a better debate experience from my 7 year old on any topic.

Funny, never thought I'd miss the old arguments about 'how could they give the MVP to a guy who had 150 RBI's and played poor RF defense over the guy with a 919 OPS playing shortstop at a gold glove level'. Boy were the awards screwed up in the 90's. Maybe that is what we need. A good old 'how dumb were they then' thread?
   69. Dan Evensen Posted: November 21, 2021 at 01:39 PM (#6053855)
First off, obligatory "toasting in epic bread" remark.

much of the BBTF community has disappeared, in part, because they want to come here to talk about things like postseason awards - but instead find posters who prefer to bloviate about other issues that have nothing to do with baseball

No they really haven't, the medium has changed, the disappearance is more about how we work with the internet, more and more people are going to phones and such, which doesn't really work with a web based discussion group like bbtf, this isn't about bbtf, it's internet wide.


I haven't posted on BBTF for years. I count among those who cardsfanboy feels have simply "disappeared." Ironically, one of the reasons why I stopped frequenting BBTF several years ago is because of the increase of cardsfanboy-type posters. When the snark increased and the actual sabermetric discussion went away, I knew it was time to leave.

I was on Primer back when I was in high school (I'm 37 now). I can remember browsing through threads during downtime in my 12th grade accounting class, which would have been in late 2001. My memories of old Primer are pretty sketchy, aside from the silliness associated with completely anonymous posting in those pre-4chan days (anybody remember Cookie Monster?). I do remember some very insightful threads and comments, though, such as the old "pitch to Bonds?" discussions we had during the 2002 postseason.

When forced registration came along, the nascent memes and the high-paced megathreads started to die down. I do remember the PETCO thread fondly, though this was memorable the way that a multi-car pileup on the freeway is memorable. I don't think the hyper-partisan political content is bad in and of itself, as long as it is at least somewhat contained. However, when that political content starts appearing in normal threads, you've really got a problem on your hands.

I think many posters here have forgotten about how amazing this forum once was. I remember Tom Tango writing lengthy criticisms of Bill James blog posts on these forums. I remember frequent posts by Sean Forman. I fondly remember the old Dan Szymborski Transaction Oracle threads, which used to be a real draw for this website. #66 is right that there was a lot of bile aimed at Murray Chass; however, this was not merely two-cent snark. We had posters with strong backgrounds in math, history, politics, and baseball in general, each of whom felt that Chass and his ilk was absolutely worthless - and each of whom could make a coherent argument to that effect.

You simply don't see that anymore. Most threads here seem to go by without any meaningful discussion. There's really no reason to stop by and post again.

Seriously - if you want good baseball discussion, head over to /r/baseball and have at it. Reddit is better designed for this type of discussion anyway - especially when it comes to game threads. That forum is also the only internet baseball forum I know of that is not overrun by posters who are 60 or older. The formatting is also not stuck in 1999.

Rather than asking what is wrong with those who left, perhaps we should start asking what is wrong with those who remain.

On another note, I'm pretty upset that there isn't much out there in terms of BBTF / Primer archives. Sure, I can find a few threads here and there that were miraculously saved on the Internet Archive - but searching for them really is a pain. Does anybody remember the old Count The Rings Diamond Mind greatest teams project - the one that ended in failure when the 1954 Indians overused two key players? You can find it on the Internet Archive, but only if you have the exact original URL - and good luck coming across that.

And whatever happened to Wiki Gonzales? That resource of lore and aging memes simply disappeared one day, and nobody here seemed to even notice. It seems to me that the posters here were too concerned with the wording of their next über-partisan polemic to be bothered with our own lore and culture.
   70. . Posted: November 21, 2021 at 01:47 PM (#6053856)
Post 68 seriously reads like parody.
   71. Mayor Blomberg Posted: November 21, 2021 at 01:54 PM (#6053857)
That forum is also the only internet baseball forum I know of that is not overrun by posters who are 60 or older.

Lets me out.
   72. SoSH U at work Posted: November 21, 2021 at 02:08 PM (#6053859)
Ironically, one of the reasons why I stopped frequenting BBTF several years ago is because of the increase of cardsfanboy-type posters. When the snark increased and the actual sabermetric discussion went away, I knew it was time to leave.


That's a bullshit claim. CFB is one of the least snarky guys here, and I can't think of anything he's ever posted that would drive reasonable people away from the site.
   73. Jack Keefe Posted: November 21, 2021 at 02:16 PM (#6053860)
My only gripe is the infrequent nature of Jack Keefe's posts

Hey buster do you think it is EZ being a fuctional charactor and all so poasting here seventeen-eight times a day. Back when I was on the Sox with my pals little Gucci and AJ Pierogi we had lots of down time you bet especially in the Bull Pen but Ozzie Guillen says I must not say Bull Pen any more I must say Shuttlin' AAAA-mericans.

Now though I am trialling my own Brand as a Tick Talk Influencer and it is just about to go Grate Guns Al. I have a video I half made it is me Twerking in a Body Stocking, Chi. White you know it mister. My next step is to actionally get Tick Talk. I know it is suphosed to be on your Fone some where but all the little Buttons are so goldam tiny my Thumbs is no longer up to it after years of thwroging a Mahor League Curf Ball. But once I get the App there will be no stopping me and I will see you all in the Funky Papers.
   74. dejarouehg Posted: November 21, 2021 at 02:25 PM (#6053863)
Agree in large part with 62, though I often disagree with his politics.

This is a baseball site, complaining about dissatisfaction with the level of political discourse on Baseball Think Factory seems like complaining about the quality of the base running in the Congressional baseball game.
Clearly, you haven't seen these losers play ball. The Dems instinctively run to third and the Reps refuse to even take a lead off of first, lest they be considered soft.
   75. base ball chick Posted: November 21, 2021 at 02:26 PM (#6053864)
hello boyz

hi dan long time no chat hope your wife n kids are doing well

there really are not real too many things to post and, um, discuss (ahem) like there were 15-20 yrs ago. although ah luvved the digressions about all kinds of stuff i didn't know nothing about

there are not real too many arguments left about baseball seeing as how pretty much all of us agree about most everything. the steroid argument days are gone

i am actually surprised that this here board is almost all dems, seeing as how almost everyone here is a White male and the supposed demographic of a "typical" baseball fan is a 62 yr old White trump luvvver. guess youse guys is NOT "typicaL"

i think that what makes folks leave is that this site is better for the laptop and not the phone and these days everyone is into their phone not the computer. and also, most of us joined when we were in our 20s and stuff like jobs, partners, kidz happen



   76. cardsfanboy Posted: November 21, 2021 at 02:31 PM (#6053865)
i am actually surprised that this here board is almost all dems, seeing as how almost everyone here is a White male and the supposed demographic of a "typical" baseball fan is a 62 yr old White trump luvvver. guess youse guys is NOT "typicaL"


We are fact loving people, so of course we are going to be dems, you need to follow football to be a moron/Republican.
   77. The Duke Posted: November 21, 2021 at 02:49 PM (#6053870)
Reddit threads are great if you want to peruse 500 comments on a Twitter comment that the Yanks just about signed Verlander. It’s just way too much activity. I tried a couple times and gave up. I can’t see how that’s better. And I think that get backs to my earlier point. It seems smaller groups like to go off by themselves because they don’t want to sort the wheat from the chaff if a site gets too many comments



   78. bobm Posted: November 21, 2021 at 03:03 PM (#6053871)
This is clearly just a simple misunderstanding on Keith's part, out of a misguided loyalty.

STLRedbirds.com: How Lou Brock and Bob Kennedy helped Keith Hernandez reach his potential
   79. ERROR---Jolly Old St. Nick Posted: November 21, 2021 at 03:36 PM (#6053874)
One thing I see is that almost all the politics-bait links are posted by RoyalsRetro. That does not bother me; guys can just not click on them. But it still bothers a few. I was an OTP regular for years; Andy has invited me to the Discord OTP site, but I have declined. Like I have said a few times, hardcore OTP guys tend to be:

1. Meta
2. Inflammatory


RR,

Discord these days is mostly a zillion threads on fantasy / superhero movies, White rock music, and foodie talk. The political discussions are usually short and repetitive, nowhere near as interesting as the ones here used to be. You can get arguments between two people that go on for hours over such enlightening topics like "you said this" vs. "no, I didn't".

It helped a little when Ray finally left a couple of months ago, but what that place sorely needs are a lot more people like you, BBC, Dan Evensen, Yankee Redneck, and the inimitable RETARDO, and fewer characters like Sam (who's deathly afraid of getting old and shows it with his constant trashing of older people) and McCoy, whose prime contribution beyond moronic snark is copying every other article he sees in yahoo news and then letting it just sit there. Trying to get any of them into a serious discussion is impossible, especially any where there's any amount of shading or nuance that needs to be brought into it.

---------------------

I definitely would not want something where you can post images

That's actually one of Discord's better features, since only about three or four of us there ever bother to click on links.

--------------------

i think that what makes folks leave is that this site is better for the laptop and not the phone and these days everyone is into their phone not the computer.

Yeah, it is a lot easier to type on a desktop or a laptop than it is on a phone. In many ways serious discussions these days are a luxury activity for people who have the time and inclination to stay in one place for more than a few minutes in a row. The attention span on Discord seems to be about three minutes or three comments ago.
   80. ERROR---Jolly Old St. Nick Posted: November 21, 2021 at 03:39 PM (#6053875)
As for Hernandez:

Christ, first he lights up a cigarette in front of Elaine, and now he's promoting anti-vax BS. You'd think if he were trying to impress Ms. Benes, he'd be playing up JFK Jr. rather than Bobby's idiot son.
   81. McCoy Posted: November 21, 2021 at 04:05 PM (#6053878)
Andy is just annoyed that everyone has grown tired of Andy being Andy.
   82. ERROR---Jolly Old St. Nick Posted: November 21, 2021 at 04:19 PM (#6053880)
Ahhh, go revel in your Bears misery. (smile)
   83. greenback used to say live and let live Posted: November 21, 2021 at 04:22 PM (#6053881)
The thing that could bring new (and probably intelligent) users to the site is the Hall of Merit. But it’s tucked away so have to know it’s there if you’re going to find it. It’s original and ambitious and I think it could really drive things.

Yes, I agree with this point on the HoM. Since Jim has essentially abandoned the site, the Hall of Merit probably should be looking for a new home.
   84. ERROR---Jolly Old St. Nick Posted: November 21, 2021 at 05:09 PM (#6053884)
I thought the HoM was a great idea, but it could be annoying the way that some of the threads turned into rants against the existing HoF, rather than simply acknowledging that the existing HoF isn't just a ratification of a spreadsheet.

And it wasn't just the "steroids candidates" omissions that fueled many of those rants. It was often just disagreements about what sort of non-character related criteria should form the basis for admission, which inherently will result in disagreements about selections. I'm glad to see that HoF selections and MVP / CYAs are becoming more cognizant of non-traditional numbers, but it's not as if it's any sort of a moral issue as to whether Triple Crown numbers or WaR should be the focus of the voters, or whether "narrative" in the form of postseason heroics and evaluations by a player's contemporaries should also be much of a factor. Sometimes disagreements are just disagreements.
   85. Rough Carrigan Posted: November 21, 2021 at 05:16 PM (#6053885)
For any establishment loving types who are still open to information,

The all cause death rates in the UK are twice as high for those who got the covid-19 "vaccines" in age 10-59 as for those who didn't:
https://alexberenson.substack.com/p/vaccinated-english-adults-under-60

A study of 566 patients showing that getting the covid-19 "vaccine" consistently causes big increases in all the markers of future cardiac events:
https://www.ahajournals.org/doi/10.1161/circ.144.suppl_1.10712

And the use of Ivermectin crushed the covid-19 virus in India whereas in totally or nearly totally "vaccinated" places like Gibraltar and Ireland it rages. But the CDC igores all this data.
https://market-ticker.org/akcs-www?post=243599

The science argues against getting Big Pharma's injections, without a doubt.
   86. cardsfanboy Posted: November 21, 2021 at 05:18 PM (#6053886)
As far as the hom goes, I really do think it needs it's own domain, and web design. Keep it part of this site of course, but in reality it should have a better navigational design than just scrolling links.

I am fine with the hom, just wish it was a better navigated site. I don't have an issue with the choices they made, and love the fact that they retroactively use current data to decide on an mvp from the past etc. You (Andy) have pointed out many times that Lou Brock is a legit hof player and not a hom and both make sense.

I keep wanting to make a template that uses photoshop or another program that will create a "plaque" from an existing photo... but ultimately that means copyright issues, so I've never really seriously proposed it, but it would be nice to have a plaque room that you can navigate, and have other things more like a real website and not a chat site.

   87. TJ Posted: November 21, 2021 at 05:26 PM (#6053888)
Maybe a contributing cause to the decline in interest in this site is that the revolution is over and the sabers have won. You’re no longer the bomb-throwing revolutionaries fighting the good fight to overthrow the establishment- the sabers now ARE the establishment, and running the post-revolutionary world is inherently less exciting that the actual waging of the battles. And look at the post-revolutionary baseball world and the changes wrought on the game by analytics- the three true outcomes, extreme shifting, the embrace of not letting a starting pitcher face the lineup a third time, an endless parade of anonymous flame throwing relievers that starts in the 5th inning, etc. The revolutionaries won, became the establishment, took over the game and made the game much less interesting to watch in the process, and no amount of broadcasters talking about WAR, launch angles or exit velocities can paper over that outcome.

Now this does not impact me personally. I’ve had an unhealthy addiction to baseball in all its forms my entire life, as a cursory glance at my medical history or the damage I have done to my body playing at the highest levels I could for half my life will attest. I drop by here regularly to see if there is something new being discussed and to catch up on some humorous snark. But to me the discussions are people singing from the same hymn book and the debates have become arguing over one’s favorite shade of blue. Perhaps that was inevitable, but it is a guaranteed way to drive the next wave of revolutionaries and their dissenting views away to other outlets. Being part of the establishment can be very boring…
   88. . Posted: November 21, 2021 at 05:29 PM (#6053889)
The science argues against getting Big Pharma's injections, without a doubt.


It's in people's self-interest to get the vaccine; its prophylactic therapeutic features far, far outweigh any dangers it presents. It's a foolish choice to reject it because of the risks.

That said, there's no serious case to be made that they're stopping the spread of COVID or that somehow the spread is the result of the unvaccinated. That case started falling apart months ago and is now in shambles.(*) There isn't a place on Earth, even a small niche place on Earth, where mass vaccination of 90%+ of the population has stopped the spread of COVID. There is a public health case to be made that everyone should get vaccinated to ease the worst symptoms of COVID, but that isn't going to "stop" or "eliminate" COVID, or anything remotely close. Anyone paying attention understands this, but there's a large faction that's completely devoted to the idea that their vaccine imbued them with moral superiority and they're sticking to that one like the proverbial pit bull to a steak.

(*) I can't vouch for everything Berenson has said about COVID and don't really pay dedicated attention to him and he's probably said some crazy stuff, but he got banned from Twitter about three months ago when he looked at the data and noted that the vaccines were really just a therapeutic (**), and he was 95%+ correct in that statement.

(**) I've never quite understood why the dedicated leftists are so horrified by this observation; it's a marvel of modern medicine that a fantastic therapeutic that's saved thousands of people from death was developed and rolled out to the mass population in less than a year. The only thing it could be is that they want the moral superiority they think they get from the vaccine.
   89. David Nieporent (now, with children) Posted: November 21, 2021 at 06:43 PM (#6053901)
I think complaints like #62 are just nonsense.
You mean "trolling like #62 is just trolling."
   90. Never Give an Inge (Dave) Posted: November 21, 2021 at 07:52 PM (#6053911)
That said, there's no serious case to be made that they're stopping the spread of COVID or that somehow the spread is the result of the unvaccinated. That case started falling apart months ago and is now in shambles.(*) There isn't a place on Earth, even a small niche place on Earth, where mass vaccination of 90%+ of the population has stopped the spread of COVID.

I think the UAE is the only country to get to 90% of its population fully vaccinated*, and their COVID cases have dropped off a cliff recently. Just a coincidence, perhaps.

In the US, the highest fully vaccinated rate in any state is 72%. Some states are over 80% with one dose now, although no state is over 90%.

Most places it's impossible to be at 90+% since under-12s are just beginning to be eligible for their second doses in the coming weeks. If you have a large part of the population all interacting with each other and none of them are vaccinated, then you're going to have spread in that community, and then they're going to spread it to some degree among the rest of the population even if the vaccines are 90% effective. I think that's a large part of what's going on -- it certainly was in the UK. We'll have to see what happens once we have states where the 5-11 year olds are largely vaccinated.

In any event, the rates of confirmed cases, hospitalization and death are all much higher in the unvaccinated population than the vaccinated population. The effectiveness has not changed meaningfully in recent months, at least in CA and NY, which track and publish the data -- despite concerns about waning vaccine effectiveness. As you said, the benefits clearly outweigh the risks.

* Although I'm not sure if those numbers are accurate, since I see conflicting figures elsewhere.
   91. ERROR---Jolly Old St. Nick Posted: November 21, 2021 at 08:03 PM (#6053912)
I am fine with the hom, just wish it was a better navigated site. I don't have an issue with the choices they made, and love the fact that they retroactively use current data to decide on an mvp from the past etc. You (Andy) have pointed out many times that Lou Brock is a legit hof player and not a hom and both make sense.

I'm much more comfortable with solid HoF cases that are made for excluded players like Whitaker or Allen or Grich than I am for post-induction cases that are made against players who are in the HoF but deemed statistically unworthy. This doesn't mean I would've necessarily voted for players like Morris or Rice or (my pet peeve) Newhouser, but I can see reasonable narrative arguments for why they should be in there, and their presence hardly diminishes the institution.
   92. sunday silence (again) Posted: November 21, 2021 at 08:49 PM (#6053918)
) There isn't a place on Earth, even a small niche place on Earth, where mass vaccination of 90%+ of the population has stopped the spread of COVID



Singapore says "hello.""
   93. Never Give an Inge (Dave) Posted: November 21, 2021 at 09:00 PM (#6053919)
I don’t think Singapore has reached 90+% vaccination quite yet; they’re also reporting 2k COVID cases per day (which, to be fair, is a less per capita than most of the US). That number is declining so maybe they’re on their way to zero. But not there yet.
   94. Random Transaction Generator Posted: November 21, 2021 at 09:03 PM (#6053920)
#92

That might have been the case in the past, but it isn't true now.
They are averaging about 350 new cases per million people, which is a higher rate than the US
   95. Hombre Brotani Posted: November 21, 2021 at 09:03 PM (#6053921)
....

On second thought, nah. There's no point engaging.
   96. Infinite Yost (Voxter) Posted: November 21, 2021 at 09:30 PM (#6053924)
The all cause death rates in the UK are twice as high for those who got the covid-19 "vaccines" in age 10-59 as for those who didn't:
https://alexberenson.substack.com/p/vaccinated-english-adults-under-60


Ah yes, the well-known font of reliable information, Alex Berenson.

Go sell crazy somewhere else. We're all stocked up here.
   97. Random Transaction Generator Posted: November 21, 2021 at 09:59 PM (#6053925)
I had never heard of Alex Berenson.

I did a quick Google search, and this is the first link that pops up.

In this crowded field of wrongness, one voice stands out. The voice of Alex Berenson: the former New York Times reporter, Yale-educated novelist, avid tweeter, online essayist, and all-around pandemic gadfly. Berenson has been serving up COVID-19 hot takes for the past year, blithely predicting that the United States would not reach 500,000 deaths (we’ve surpassed 550,000) and arguing that cloth and surgical masks can’t protect against the coronavirus (yes, they can).
   98. depletion Posted: November 21, 2021 at 10:26 PM (#6053926)
I don’t post as much because I don’t have anything interesting to write. I find almost everyone here fun to read. Oh, and Fire Keith Hernandez.
   99. Ziggy: social distancing since 1980 Posted: November 21, 2021 at 10:41 PM (#6053927)
Oh, oh, I know what I need, more talk about the ******* corona virus. **** the ******* corona virus.

Can we return to navel gazing for a while? It's depressing that my favorite site on the internet is dying a slow death, but talk about that is better than more talk about the corona virus.

If Primer is going down, while it's on its way, I'm going pour myself a snifter of scotch in honor of Harveys (Lagavulin, of course), and enjoy talking baseball with my fellow dead-enders until the waves finally close above the chimp's head.
   100. CStallion Posted: November 21, 2021 at 11:37 PM (#6053932)
Re 92, I live in Singapore and am not saying hello back. 94 is spot on though things are now looking slightly better. The vax helped with the hospitalization and fatality rates.

Back on the "main topic", I have mainly lurked since the early 2000s and think BBTF is still a good place to visit. It can use some new functions but I agree with a lot of you it is not as big/popular because the analytical/baseball/online/our own worlds have changed.
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