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Baseball Primer Newsblog — The Best News Links from the Baseball Newsstand Friday, December 23, 2011Krieger: Only fair to give Rockies some props in Hall of Fame votingIncluding the first vote for Vinny Castilla-.260 hitter…no matter how you look at it!
Repoz
Posted: December 23, 2011 at 11:17 AM | 42 comment(s)
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1. Starring RMc as Bradley Scotchman Posted: December 23, 2011 at 11:53 AM (#4022536)Maybe there wouldn't be a "national bias against" the Rockies if they'd, you know, win something occasionally. The Marlins have won two WS, the D-Backs one; even the Rays have a pennant win.
How do this idiot get a vote, anyway? Nude of pictures of Selig, maybe?
That was like a million years ago.
he should have his humidor taken away
Trammell won't get there. If not for the coming onslaught, Raines would be odds-on to make it in down the road. As it is, it's too hard to tell.
A lot of these guys seem to do better in the Repoz count than they do in the full balloting, so expect some slippage.
I'm not sure that's a "Not a 1st ballot" mentality and more of a "Not a Hall of Famer" one.
That's probably not a Hall of Famer, Coors notwithstanding...it's a guy who deserves to be remembered as a heck of a ballplayer, but no HOFer.
OTOH, he might be in the Top 12* all-time among first sackers, which would give him a legitimate Cooperstown case.
* That's just a guess. Point being, the list of all-time great first basemen is thoroughly dominated by players whose careers began in the last 35 years or so, with the greatest concentration during Helton's career.
My initial reaction was "No freakin way!", but looking at the numbers, yeah. But then look at this:
Burks ages 24-28: .278/.343/.452 116 OPS+
Burks ages 34-38: .297/.382/.547 142 OPS+
Makes you go Hmmmmm.
edit: None of those seasons are Coors years. He was in COL from ages 29-33
Regarding his bias paranoia...Obviously, Larry Walker will get a good look from the HoF voters purely because of his superior play in Coors field. If you deduct Walker's Coors numbers from his career totals, you get an exact replica of a similarly good fielding, strong-armed, fast, injury-prone rightfielder named JD Drew. Of course it's not fair to deduct those slow-pitch Coors numbers, but it is fair to ask whether there's a such a large standard deviation for hitters in the Coors Field/late 90's offensive atmosphere that his oWAR numbers need some sort of additional fudge factor.
What this means is:
JD Drew + 3 huge peak seasons = Larry Walker
Basically, if JD Drew had had not one 2004, but four 2004s, he'd be Larry Walker. And he'd be a pretty reasonable Hall of Famer.
A lot of people here are fixated on how the national media ignores the teams here. After a big Rockies win, you know, when something crazy happens like Tulowitzki hitting 2 walk off grand slams in the same game to come back from a 10-run deficit in the bottom of the 16th, instead of celebrating people will go to espn.com and complain "the Rockies are only the 3rd story on the slide show!"
That was like a million years ago.
Dear God, this is what I get for posting early in the morning while recovering from the flu. I had completely forgotten about the 2007 World Series. Maybe I chose to forget, as Scrooge would say.
Yeah, I'd tend to agree with the no on Helton.
The man has 60 WAR already; he'll probably finish around .320 AVG, 2500 H, 350 HR and 1400 RBI. Even in Coors, that's at least a HOF candidate.
Fun fact: Tulo has 24 WAR thru 2011; this places him 14th all-time among SS thru age 26, between Trammell and Ernie Banks. Not bad.
Right. So the question is what role did the move to Colorado play in generating those three big seasons for Walker?
To get even more speculative, if Drew had played his most recent three seasons in 1997 Coors field instead of 2009-2011 AL East, would he look like he was toast, or would he get 2000 more PAs?
Well, you know, you look at the headline on Howard Medgal's piece on David Wright, and you can kinda see where they're coming from.
It's silly how people do that. The "national media" doesn't ignore anyone.
Except Detroit, of course.
Who?
Anti-mustache bias.
I couldn't agree more. The only question is, which props?
Here's my ballot:
Larry Walker - goalie mask and stick
Andres Gallaraga - giant litter box
Dante Bichette - helium balloon
Vinny Castilla - Miss Congeniality bouquet
Isn't he a NY writer? I think front range sports fans have too much of a chip on its shoulder. When my team wins, I don't think, "yeah, but this is no fun if the national media doesn't recognize us, let me watch sports center to see how they've spurned me."
I agree...except that I have ths strange, nagging, compulsive anti-Rockies bias.
It was just two years ago. New names on the ballot that year were (in descending order of support) Alomar, Larkin, E. Martinez, McGriff, Galarraga, Ventura, and then Burks and Karros with 2 votes apiece. Plus all the holdovers we're familiar with.
(a) need to have been really good young. It's very hard to be a "visible" HoFer (i.e. know one when I see one) if you were clearly not an HoFer through age 27-28. Much better to excel early then fade away than it is to be good early then excel late. Burks was probably better than Pinson, but Pinson was a star in his early 20s. (Even so, Pinson was under 5%, got tossed off the ballot, got put back on (with Santo I assume) then survived.
(b) win some hardware. Burks is not that different from Murphy but Murphy has the 2 MVPs (and a legitimately HoF peak). Maybe just a variation on (a) but I'd also expect to see Kent do better thanks to his MVP. Burks also has only one GG and made only 2 AS games.
(c) win some rings. He didn't.
(d) at least win a batting title. His 291 career BA is a lot better than I expected.
(e) don't play 2B, 3B or CF ... or, if you do, win a lot of GG or hit like a 1B. The weirdness that Perez was voted in by the writers and Cepeda was an easy VC selection while Santo, Grich, Whitaker, Wynn, Nettles, Simmons, Freehan (and maybe Edmonds and Rolen) were easily discarded or waited forever can't be explained other than by a near complete ignorance of the defensive spectrum (outside of SS).
On (e), at least semi-seriously ... maybe if he doesn't play CF he doesn't get hurt as much young (and therefore probably is more durable in his 30s too). Maybe he makes it to 10,000 PA with pretty much the same rate stats. Maybe then he's sitting on nearly 1500 runs, over 1400 RBI, 425-450 HR and maybe he wins a few GG in a corner and he's still got that 126 OPS+ and that looks pretty Perez-ish. Burks quite possibly does better in the HoF voting if he doesn't play CF.
It doesn't matter where he's from; it betrays a certain provincialness to claim that there's a dichotomy between going to the Hall of Fame or going to the Colorado Rockies.
There are probably more future Hall of Famers on the Rockies right now than there are on the Mets.
Seems like any city below top 3-5 in population winds up with writers having this weird phobia. Logical arguments based on past evidence will get you nowhere.
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