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Thursday, January 16, 2020

L.A. City Council to vote on asking MLB to award Dodgers championship trophies

The Los Angeles City Council is expected to vote within the next week on a resolution urging Major League Baseball to recall the championship trophies presented to the Houston Astros in 2017 and the Boston Red Sox in 2018 “and award them to the Los Angeles Dodgers.”

Councilman Gil Cedillo, one of the sponsors of the resolution, said he expects the council to approve it. As of late Wednesday, the city clerk had not yet determined what day the resolution would come up for a vote.

Cedillo, whose district includes Dodger Stadium, said neither the Dodgers nor his constituents had requested the resolution.

“This is an equity and justice thing,” Cedillo said. “Who was the best team in 2017? Who was the best team in 2018? It was the Dodgers. They got beat by teams that were cheating.

One of those rare things that manages to unite people across the ideological spectrum in Southern California is the utter uselessness of Los Angeles’ municipal government- this serves as a demonstration of why…...

 

QLE Posted: January 16, 2020 at 12:10 AM | 39 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
  Tags: bad ideas, dirty rotten cheaters, dodgers

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   1. winnipegwhip Posted: January 16, 2020 at 09:56 AM (#5916406)
Would they have beaten the Yankees in the 2017 World Series?
   2. winnipegwhip Posted: January 16, 2020 at 10:00 AM (#5916410)
Well, let's look at 2018. One of the games in the regular season which was in question was a game in which Colorado was getting screwed when playing in Houston. If we add one more Colorado win to their season total, they finished tied for the division title and the Dodgers have to play a Game 163 to see who is stuck playing the Wild Card Game.

Sounds like there should be a vote to take down the 2018 NL pennant.
   3. Rusty Priske Posted: January 16, 2020 at 10:06 AM (#5916414)
Note to L.A. City Council - you are embarrassing yourself.
   4. Manny Coon Posted: January 16, 2020 at 10:07 AM (#5916415)
You can't just give the Dodgers the championship, other teams were cheated too. Clearly the entire 2017 and 2018 playoffs need to replayed without the Astros or Red Sox with the next highest finishing teams in their place and everyone re-seeded. The rosters would need to be the rosters from those years, so any players would temporarily go back to the team they were on.

Or we can just keep things how they are and save a lot of hassle.
   5. SoSH U at work Posted: January 16, 2020 at 10:10 AM (#5916418)
f we add one more Colorado win to their season total, they finished tied for the division title and the Dodgers have to play a Game 163 to see who is stuck playing the Wild Card Game.'


That would be a Game 164.
   6. Misirlou gave her his Vincent to ride Posted: January 16, 2020 at 10:17 AM (#5916424)
That would be a Game 164.


In that case, there is no game 163, and the Dodgers are automatically the WC.
   7. SoSH U at work Posted: January 16, 2020 at 10:21 AM (#5916429)
In that case, there is no game 163, and the Dodgers are automatically the WC.


I know. Just pointing out that the Dodgers and Rockies already played a Game 163 at the end of the 2018 season.
   8. puck Posted: January 16, 2020 at 10:36 AM (#5916441)
Seems like getting named World Champions due to the LA City council would be more embarrassing for the Dodgers than anything.
   9. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: January 16, 2020 at 12:21 PM (#5916499)
This is about as dumb as the Indiana legislation to redefine the number pi.
   10. Khrushin it bro Posted: January 16, 2020 at 12:48 PM (#5916508)
A vote about asking a question...
   11. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: January 16, 2020 at 12:54 PM (#5916510)
A vote about asking a question...

No, no, they're going to "urge" them. Much stronger.

I mean, who can resist a good urging.
   12. The Yankee Clapper Posted: January 16, 2020 at 01:05 PM (#5916515)
You can’t unring the bell - the Astros & Red Sox accomplishment will always be somewhat tainted but the results are what they are. However, it might not be too late for the LA City Council to ask MLB to penalize the Giants a couple of draft picks for their 1951 sign-stealing at the Polo Grounds, although I suppose they may have already done so.
   13. . Posted: January 16, 2020 at 01:14 PM (#5916520)
You can’t unring the bell


Sure you can. Ill-gotten gains are forfeited routinely in American life and jurisprudence.(*) Bells routinely get unrung.

(*) Google "disgorgement." Or even "civil forfeiture," although disgorgement is better. And note the difference between disgorgement, where a cheater or fraudster's ill-gotten gains are simply taken away because it's unjust to permit them to keep them, and restitution, where a particular victim is to be paid back from the taking of the ill-gotten gains. There's no need to have an identifiable victim to unring the bell. The ill-gotten championship -- and that's absolutely what it is -- doesn't have to be awarded to a particular victim; it can simply be disgorged. And it should be.
   14. . Posted: January 16, 2020 at 01:18 PM (#5916524)
Wikipedia:

Disgorgement is defined by Black's Law Dictionary as "the act of giving up something (such as profits illegally obtained) on demand or by legal compulsion".[1]

Disgorgement is a remedy or penalty used in U.S. securities law; for example, disgorgement of short-swing profits is the remedy prescribed by § 16(b) of the Securities Exchange Act of 1934.[2]

American Jurisprudence, Second Edition states that:

Disgorgement is an equitable remedy designed to deter future violations of the securities laws and to deprive defendants of the proceeds of their wrongful conduct. Indeed, in the exercise of its equity powers, the district court may order disgorgement of profits acquired through securities fraud. Disgorgement takes into account the fact that the issuance of an injunction, by itself, does not correct the consequences of past activities. This remedy may also be imposed if the court believes that a defendant should not profit from his or her wrong, but equitable considerations indicate that an injunction should not be granted.[3]
   15. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: January 16, 2020 at 01:45 PM (#5916553)
Sure you can. Ill-gotten gains are forfeited routinely in American life and jurisprudence.(*) Bells routinely get unrung.

No, that analogy specifically replies to things that can't be undone, because you literally can't unring a bell. If it can be undone, then the analogy is inapt.

   16. . Posted: January 16, 2020 at 01:50 PM (#5916560)
No, that analogy specifically replies to things that can't be undone, because you literally can't unring a bell. If it can be undone, then the analogy is inapt.


It's totally apt, because the bell ringing was the Astros coming into possession of the 2017 championship and it can easily be unrung by dispossessing them of it. It doesn't matter if people "saw it happen," people also "saw" Bernie Madoff get rich and act like a rich guy.

Figure out the ways in which the Astros can be said to "possess" the 2017 championship and take those things away. A few quickly come to mind:

1. The championship banner at whatever the hell they're now calling Enron Field. Order it taken down, destroyed, and never displayed.
2. The world series trophy replica. Take it away.
3. The MLB official guides and media guides listing the Astros as the 2017 world series champions. Revise them with the 2017 champion denoted as "vacant." Asterisk explaining if so-chosen.
4. Whatever trademarks/intellectual property the Astros have in marks like "Houston Astros 2017 World Series Champions," i.e., the ones glommed onto hats, t-shirts, etc. The mark(s) forfeited to MLB.

I'm sure there are more, but that's a fair start. They cheated their asses off in 2017 and there's no serious sense in which they should be recognized as champions. If their fans want to stick up their middle fingers to it all and prattle on about how they saw what they saw and it lives on in their hearts and minds, let them -- whatever.

   17. Sunday silence Posted: January 16, 2020 at 01:51 PM (#5916562)
unring the entire season.
   18. Traderdave Posted: January 16, 2020 at 01:55 PM (#5916568)
The SEC has almost given up ordering restitution, in which customers are repaid the ill gotten gains made at their expense. Now they almost always order disgorgement, in which they get to keep the money, victims be damned.
   19. Gonfalon Bubble Posted: January 16, 2020 at 01:58 PM (#5916574)
The Yankees, Expos, Braves and White Sox played a two-man beach volleyball tournament in Hawaii, in October 1994. The Yankee duo (Pat Kelly and Mike Gallego) won, making the '94 Yankees the only true champion that season. It really happened. Going forward, the sand dunes of valor are also the only fair venue to retro-validate the 2017 season.
   20. RoyalFlush Posted: January 16, 2020 at 02:06 PM (#5916579)
It's totally apt, because the bell ringing was the Astros coming into possession of the 2017 championship and it can easily be unrung by dispossessing them of it. It doesn't matter if people "saw it happen," people also "saw" Bernie Madoff get rich and act like a rich guy.


No LSAT required at your school either? Cool.
   21. Zonk Hasn't Learned his Aspirational Lesson Posted: January 16, 2020 at 02:07 PM (#5916580)
We have already been through this....

Vacating the Astros and the Red Sox means that the defending 2016 WS champions were not finally dethroned until last fall.
   22. Never Give an Inge (Dave) Posted: January 16, 2020 at 02:09 PM (#5916581)

You can penalize them monetarily but you can't go back and replay the games, which I think is what people mean when they say you can't "unring the bell". Even though the NCAA says that Louisville's 2013 national championship was vacated, if you ask most people they will say Louisville won the 2013 title. Their CB-Ref page says they were the champs. Wikipedia says they were the champs, with an asterisk.
   23. . Posted: January 16, 2020 at 02:16 PM (#5916587)
You can penalize them monetarily but you can't go back and replay the games, which I think is what people mean when they say you can't "unring the bell".


You don't have to go back and replay the games to do the four things I listed in 16.

Even though the NCAA says that Louisville's 2013 national championship was vacated, if you ask most people they will say Louisville won the 2013 title. Their CB-Ref page says they were the champs. Wikipedia says they were the champs, with an asterisk.


And I'm sure people would still say the Astros are the champions, but they wouldn't be. People say a lot of things that aren't accurate. And in any event, the people and the fans aren't the wrongdoers, the organization is. It wouldn't be the masses disgorging the ill-gotten championship, it would be the organization. The masses will do what the masses do. Bootleg t-shirts will be sold; outlaw baseball history websites will be created; as far as we know BBTF and BB-ref will go rogue and not recognize MLB's actions. It's not pertinent to anything. Gatekeepers shouldn't cease from doing the correct ethical thing based on such trivialities as their perception of mass acceptance.
   24. Bring Me the Head of Alfredo Griffin (Vlad) Posted: January 16, 2020 at 02:19 PM (#5916589)
You can penalize them monetarily but you can't go back and replay the games, which I think is what people mean when they say you can't "unring the bell".


You could... it'd just be a huge pain in the ass, which is why they won't.
   25. Jeff Frances the Mute Posted: January 16, 2020 at 02:31 PM (#5916598)
What a surprise to see local politicians grand standing and making fools of themselves.
   26. Astroenteritis Posted: January 16, 2020 at 02:43 PM (#5916606)
Good to see some people would like MLB to be as corrupt and hypocritical as the NCAA.

If we actually knew all the teams that were cheating in 2017 and 2018 we might find ourselves awarding the title to the Rays, or something.
The worst part of this isn't the fallout from the punishment, that's all deserved, but the holier than thou folks who seem to be able to accurately tell us how an alternate timeline would have transpired.
   27. David Nieporent (now, with children) Posted: January 16, 2020 at 02:54 PM (#5916620)
No LSAT required at your school either? Cool.
They don't call him FLTB for nothing.
   28. stanmvp48 Posted: January 16, 2020 at 02:56 PM (#5916623)
#9. Please explain
   29. Zonk Hasn't Learned his Aspirational Lesson Posted: January 16, 2020 at 03:00 PM (#5916626)
#9. Please explain

Math is hard.
   30. Walt Davis Posted: January 16, 2020 at 04:08 PM (#5916686)
What happened to my request that Springer and Betts be transferred to the Cubs (while Astros and Red Sox continue to pay their salaries because they're naughty)? Still looks like the only fair solution to me.
   31. gef, talking mongoose & vexatious litigant Posted: January 16, 2020 at 04:16 PM (#5916691)
Note to L.A. City Council - you are embarrassing yourself.


It's the LA City Council. Probably their finest moment, in comparison to everything else.
   32. Walt Davis Posted: January 16, 2020 at 07:34 PM (#5916762)
The Indiana "Pi" bill which I had never heard of and dates from 1897 so don't get too excited ... although the appearance of an actual Professor Waldo does suggest there's a movie to be made here.
   33. Dock Ellis Posted: January 16, 2020 at 07:36 PM (#5916764)
good luck LA!
   34. Los Angeles El Hombre of Anaheim Posted: January 16, 2020 at 09:23 PM (#5916796)
If my local social media circle is any indication, this is easily the city council's most popular move in years.
   35. "RMc", the superbatsman Posted: January 16, 2020 at 09:30 PM (#5916800)
Note to L.A. City Council - you are embarrassing yourself.

Don't these people have enough to do? Have they fixed all the potholes and busted streetlights?
   36. My name is Votto, and I love to get blotto Posted: January 17, 2020 at 09:12 AM (#5916837)
No, that analogy specifically replies to things that can't be undone, because you literally can't unring a bell. If it can be undone, then the analogy is inapt.


You can't un-beat that trash can.
   37. Howie Menckel Posted: January 17, 2020 at 11:17 AM (#5916879)
can you un-beat a dead horse?
   38. Gonfalon Bubble Posted: January 17, 2020 at 04:33 PM (#5917024)
   39. QLE Posted: January 22, 2020 at 12:53 AM (#5918125)

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