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Sunday, May 27, 2007

L.A. Times: Cabrera rips Yankees fans (RR)

Or as a powda-fueled Yankee fan snarled at the bar the other day…“If that commissioner would just contraption the (forgetting) Angels…the Yankees would win ALL the time!”

The New York Yankees might have the most fans, but they don’t have the best fans. So says Angels shortstop Orlando Cabrera.

“They don’t appreciate good baseball,” he said. “They just appreciate the Yankees beating up on everybody.”

...“In Boston, they admire baseball,” Cabrera said. “In Anaheim, those fans are some of the best in baseball. They know you care there. They know you can’t do it every day. I appreciate that. “These people here, they’re mean. And they’re really mean to the other team.”

“When people say [stuff], they only motivate me,” he said. “They’re bad losers.”

Repoz Posted: May 27, 2007 at 12:16 PM | 246 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
  Tags: angels, yankees

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   1. scareduck Posted: May 27, 2007 at 12:38 PM (#2380324)
The sky is blue and water is wet, yet these things do not make the evening news. Discuss.
   2. Raskolnikov Posted: May 27, 2007 at 12:44 PM (#2380325)
I was looking at the updated VORP recently. Yankee fans are below replacement level.
   3. IronChef Chris Wok Posted: May 27, 2007 at 12:44 PM (#2380326)
I know retrospect is 20/20, but why didn't we keep him instead of getting some guy who couldn't catch and a lousy wifebeater?
   4. philly Posted: May 27, 2007 at 12:54 PM (#2380327)
“They’re bad losers.”


But they're getting better at it every day.
   5. Gambling Rent Czar Posted: May 27, 2007 at 01:41 PM (#2380333)
If I was Cabrera, I wouldn't worry one bit. Those "Mean fans" should start to turn on their own any day now.

Has anybody seen A-Rod's May :)

AB 88
2B 3
HR 5
RBI 10
AVG 0.250
OBP 0.371
SLG 0.455

Aee, he can't do it when it matters. :)

Pansy ass April primadona.
I can see the headlines already!
   6. Best Regards, President of Comfort, Esq., LLC Posted: May 27, 2007 at 03:03 PM (#2380344)
Weren't there empty seats at Fenway Park last year? Seats that had already been paid for?

Yeah, but Yankees fans are the only ones who boo their team when they play like crap.
   7. Rough Carrigan Posted: May 27, 2007 at 03:37 PM (#2380355)
Empty seats don't boo. And Sox fans, as far as I can recall, didn't boo the Sox at the end of last season. I saw 3 or 4 games from the end of August on and never heard any. I didn't read any reports of it either. There's just not the same sense of entitlement anywhere else that there is in the house that new york city rebuilt.
   8. PJ Martinez Posted: May 27, 2007 at 03:48 PM (#2380359)
Well, the Sox and the Yankees are the pot and the kettle on this, I think. My own sense is that no fans are more ruthless about booing their own players than Yankees fans, and that Red Sox finish second in this questionable category.

Important caveat: I have never been to a Phillies game.
   9. villageidiom Posted: May 27, 2007 at 03:54 PM (#2380363)
Larry, I think you're taking it a bit too personally. Generally, the Yankees fans who populate this site tend not to show what is thought of as the "typical" Yankee fan behavior. Let me try a particular example. From the article:
(Cabrera) gives Red Sox and Angels fans high marks for supporting the home team through tough times and applauding great plays by the visiting team.
For Fenway I can attest to the former, though I'll admit there were times 10+ years ago when the fans would get more wrapped up in the "oh, no, they're going to blow it again" mentality than actually cheering on the team in the tough times.

The latter - applauding great plays by the visiting team - I can also attest to. It's been that way at Fenway as far back as I can remember.

From the Yankees fans, I'm curious to find out if that's typical behavior at The Stadium. I honestly don't know. Is Cabrera correct?
   10. villageidiom Posted: May 27, 2007 at 03:55 PM (#2380364)
Important caveat: I have never been to a Phillies game.
That explains why Boston makes #2 on your list. It's questionable whether NY even deserves to be #1.
   11. Rally Posted: May 27, 2007 at 03:57 PM (#2380366)
I know retrospect is 20/20, but why didn't we keep him instead of getting some guy who couldn't catch and a lousy wifebeater?

Draft picks. Stupid system rewards teams that sign one free agent and lose another. The swap of first rounders evens out but the teams active in the free agent swap are rewarded with supplemental picks.
   12. Shredder Posted: May 27, 2007 at 04:00 PM (#2380367)
Before it gets lost in all the Yankees-Red Sox back and forth, I think the key point to take away from this article is that Angels fans are, without a doubt, the best fans.
   13. PJ Martinez Posted: May 27, 2007 at 04:00 PM (#2380368)
One thing I like about Fenway that seems to get misunderstood on national broadcasts: late in the game, especially close games, the fans often get relatively quiet, so long as nothing terribly dramatic (and good) is happening. Judging from my own experience, this is because the fans are actually paying attention, and you don't need to yell and scream the whole time.

I'm sure this happens at other stadiums, too-- I'm not making some special game for Red Sox fans. I just get annoyed when Joe Buck and/or Jon Miller point out how quiet Fenway has gotten and suggest they've lost interest or been taken out of the game or something.
   14. pkb33 Posted: May 27, 2007 at 04:01 PM (#2380369)
That explains why Boston makes #2 on your list. It's questionable whether NY even deserves to be #1.

Agreed, I think Phils fans are by far the worst in terms of booing their own. Yankees fans are bad, but Sox fans deserve special mention for the odious booing of Foulke and Bellhorn in 2005.
   15. PJ Martinez Posted: May 27, 2007 at 04:07 PM (#2380374)
"Yankees fans are bad, but Sox fans deserve special mention for the odious booing of Foulke and Bellhorn in 2005."

That was awful, but booing Rivera-- even if it did't happen (so far as I know) in, say, the 2001 regular season-- is in roughly the same category, I think.
   16. TVerik - Dr. Velocity Posted: May 27, 2007 at 04:11 PM (#2380375)
From the Yankees fans, I'm curious to find out if that's typical behavior at The Stadium. I honestly don't know. Is Cabrera correct?

Most of us make judgments about how much cheering or booing goes on from television - one of the problems here is that a disproportionate number of the microphones picking up crowd noise are in the far-out CF stands - the bleachers, in most stadia.

Therefore, viewers at home are influenced by "crowd noise", when it's really a very narrow demographic of game attendees.

Attending games at Yankee Stadium is a completely different audio experience than experiencing them on YES. I've witnessed fans applauding good plays by the other team, where I've never heard this on TV.
   17. RobertMachemer Posted: May 27, 2007 at 04:14 PM (#2380378)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ztPQieRucKE

I'm sure there are lots of examples of this sort of idiocy on both sides (and quite possibly for other teams as well), but this still makes me ill.
   18. Gambling Rent Czar Posted: May 27, 2007 at 04:23 PM (#2380383)
here you go ..

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TwBa3XA3Sl4
   19. Jeff K. Posted: May 27, 2007 at 04:27 PM (#2380384)
That is utter lunacy, and not funny in the least. The worst part is, there are children standing right there. That's an *actual* example of something that should not be done "for the sake of the children", as it sets an atrocious example.

UT/OU and UT/A&M games can get out of hand a little bit, but there's never anything close to that. It's one thing to yell at random people off the top of your head. It's quite another to systematically surround someone, block their view of the game, and ridicule them with a memorized song.

(EDIT: This is in response to #17.)
   20. Chip Posted: May 27, 2007 at 04:29 PM (#2380385)
Before it gets lost in all the Yankees-Red Sox back and forth, I think the key point to take away from this article is that Angels fans are, without a doubt, the best fans.

If Cabrera had seen them with their Thundersticks, he wouldn't say that.
   21. IronChef Chris Wok Posted: May 27, 2007 at 04:30 PM (#2380388)
Empty seats don't boo. And Sox fans, as far as I can recall, didn't boo the Sox at the end of last season. I saw 3 or 4 games from the end of August on and never heard any. I didn't read any reports of it either. There's just not the same sense of entitlement anywhere else that there is in the house that new york city rebuilt.

Last year at McAfee I booed Javy Lopez and yelled "WE WANT DOUGIE" everytime he came up.
   22. RobertMachemer Posted: May 27, 2007 at 04:31 PM (#2380390)
I know of that one (in number 18) but didn't post it because there's no way to know what the person holding the camera was doing as s/he walked. For all we know s/he was flipping the crowd off while wearing a Sox hat. Who knows? But the YMCA one terrifies me. Those are teenagers surrounded by large, loud, drunk, belligerent fans. I'd have been terrified in their place.
   23. Jeff K. Posted: May 27, 2007 at 04:38 PM (#2380393)
Those are teenagers surrounded by large, loud, drunk, belligerent fans. I'd have been terrified in their place.

I think I've told this story before, but when I was about 7, my mom and I sat in the centerfield bleachers at Fenway during a Rangers/Sox game. We had been warned not to cheer very much at all for the Rangers, but we were both wearing hats. A little while after we sat down, a drunk guy behind us leaned down and said "You're lucky you're a lady and her kid."

The fact that you would even have to think that, much less feel the need to say it, means you've gone overboard.

Sure, I laughed at the crying 8 year-old Sooner fan on TV during last year's game. So did everyone in the bar I was watching the game at. But that's a far cry from screaming in a kid's face.
   24. RobertMachemer Posted: May 27, 2007 at 04:46 PM (#2380401)
Yeah, as I say, I'm sure there are similar stories about Red Sox fans (and fans of other teams, for that matter). That one youtube video makes it a lot more real for me, somehow.
   25. Random Transaction Generator Posted: May 27, 2007 at 05:03 PM (#2380413)
But the YMCA one terrifies me. Those are teenagers surrounded by large, loud, drunk, belligerent fans. I'd have been terrified in their place.

So the ushers at Yankee Stadium make sure that people don't move around during God Bless America, but they stand by and watch that systematic abuse of fans?

That's all kinds of f*cked-up.
   26. Hombre Brotani Posted: May 27, 2007 at 05:04 PM (#2380414)
I've told this story before: In the late 90s, because I had the nerve to wear an Angel jersey to an Angel home game, I was challenged to a fight in the stands by several very large, drunken Yankee fans who threatened at the top of their lungs to kick my ass and rape my girlfriend. We left the game early, my GF crying and badly shaken. I won't go see games when the Yankees are in town with family anymore, for their safety.

One incident shouldn't be used to indict entire populations, I know, and such behavior is alien to any of the Yanks fans on this board. Still, you can pretty much guess how I feel about Cabrera's comments.
   27. IronChef Chris Wok Posted: May 27, 2007 at 05:06 PM (#2380416)
I've told this story before: In the late 90s, because I had the nerve to wear an Angel jersey to an Angel home game, I was challenged to a fight in the stands by several very large, drunken Yankee fans who threatened at the top of their lungs to kick my ass and rape my girlfriend. We left the game early, my GF crying and badly shaken. I won't go see games when the Yankees are in town with family anymore, for their safety.

One incident shouldn't be used to indict entire populations, I know, and such behavior is alien to any of the Yanks fans on this board. Still, you can pretty much guess how I feel about Cabrera's comments.


It's hard to rape when somebody doens't own a penis.
   28. The importance of being Ernest Riles Posted: May 27, 2007 at 05:12 PM (#2380422)
My wife and I have had beers tossed in our direction at Fenway. Apparently, the only tickets I can afford there come with complementary abuse. And we're only A's fans! My wife no longer comes with me to Fenway, which is too bad, because I think having the lady prevents the worst from coming out in the home crowd. I can't wait till baby comes; he'll be my little human shield.

But it really does depend on where you sit. The last game I went to at Fenway, I thought I was in mortal danger after Papelbon blew the save. But we were sitting in a section with a lot of season ticket holders, a fair number of families and couples. There was some taunting, but all good-natured. And when I went to Yankee Stadium last year, the upper deck weekend day game crowd was really friendly with me. I was all by my lonesome, and they kept me company with good-natured teasing.
   29. Boots Day Posted: May 27, 2007 at 05:12 PM (#2380424)
I went to a Cubs-Mets game at Shea in 1984, wearing my Cubs hat. As the Mets started to pull away in that game, the whole section around me started chanting "F*&% You Cubs!"

Did I mention I was there with my mom? That was lot of fun.
   30. Furious George Posted: May 27, 2007 at 05:53 PM (#2380476)
I know that this thread is discussing the merits and demerits of different fan bases, but I saw the conversaiton drifting a bit into this category and I have to chime in and #####:

I'm sick of hearing from Bostonians that they are much classier and better behaved than New Yorkers in general. I live in Boston, and the citizens there aren't going to win "Nicest City in America" anytime soon.

But it's not just Boston. Fact is, there are a$$holes everywhere in this country. They'll be on the road with you, behind you in the supermarket and at local sporting events. And they aren't penned in to any particular city. Any attempt to put your locale above any other place is just an obnoxious pissing contest.

Hell, even in Buffalo - where people are almost Canadian - a bunch of drunk Bills fans beat up some guy for wearing his Patriot gear in the stadium. Granted, he shouldn't have taken the last Tim Horton's danish (we're protective of our pastries) but still...
   31. Shooty would run in but these bone spurs hurt! Posted: May 27, 2007 at 06:04 PM (#2380495)
BTF threads about the supposed merits of one group of fans over another are monumentally stupid.
   32. Hombre Brotani Posted: May 27, 2007 at 06:34 PM (#2380558)
I'm sick of hearing from Bostonians that they are much classier and better behaved than New Yorkers in general. I live in Boston, and the citizens there aren't going to win "Nicest City in America" anytime soon.
I've had bad experiences with Sox fans, Dodger fans, Tiger fans, etc., as well. Maybe it's just that the Yankees have more fans than other teams, and/or that they've had more success than other teams, or whatever. I readily admit my bias, and it's probably because I've never been physically threatened by fans of any other team, and the last time I was threatened by Yankee fans wasn't the first time. My personal experience is what it is; call me monumentally stupid if you want.
   33. Rough Carrigan Posted: May 27, 2007 at 06:41 PM (#2380570)
I don't know about Philly but is there any other group of fans besides yankee fans that would start booing because their team is down 3-0 is the *first* inning as happened at yesterday's game? Talk about your childish need for instant gratification.
   34. Milford Blatti Posted: May 27, 2007 at 07:03 PM (#2380597)
Of course all teams have a segment of semi-dangerous morons in their fanbases and yes the Yankees have more fans than other teams, thus the sheer number of morons is higher; but I contend that the Yankees, as a team, attract morons. It's part of their smug, "count the ringgggzzzz," complain about umps, Steinbrenner-fueled ethos. Isn't it?

I'm not saying that all Yankee fans are morons*, just that, if you're a semi-dangerous moron looking for a baseball team to root for, then you are part of the Yankees' key demographic.

*Quite the contrary, as many Yankee fans, particularly around here, are thoughtful and humane.
   35. NJ in NJ Posted: May 27, 2007 at 07:05 PM (#2380602)
BTF threads about the supposed merits of one group of fans over another are monumentally stupid.

Yeah.

I also didn't find either of the YouTube videos scary, but that might just be me.
   36. Captain Joe Bivens, Pointless and Wonderful Posted: May 27, 2007 at 08:18 PM (#2380720)
It's part of their smug, "count the ringgggzzzz," complain about umps, Steinbrenner-fueled ethos. Isn't it?

I'm not saying that all Yankee fans are morons*, just that, if you're a semi-dangerous moron looking for a baseball team to root for, then you are part of the Yankees' key demographic.



Agreed. I adore most of the Yankees' fans here at BTF. It's the Yankees' fans who live nearby, here in MA, that, to a person, are arrogant jerks. They tell me they aren't worried about the team's current record because every good ballplayer wants to be a Yankee, and the Yankees will either trade for them or sign them when they become FA's. Because that's what the Yankees do. I don't think Red Sox fans share that attitude about the team they root for. The Red Sox may be successful in some signings (Matsuzaka), but the fanbase doesn't take it for granted that they'll always get who they're after. Not like Yankees fans I know.
   37. pkb33 Posted: May 27, 2007 at 08:21 PM (#2380722)
Cabrera clearly got the last laugh this series, that's for sure.

Can we expect a press release from Steinbrenner blaming the umps today?
   38. Halofan Posted: May 27, 2007 at 08:49 PM (#2380745)
Angel Stadium security is easy to use as one's personal garden-weeder. With their zero tolerance policy you just have two poeple approach the usher appearing to be unrelated complaining about the same group of visiting fans. That is all it takes for an expulsion and they hire extra security for Dodger, Yankee, Bastin and now White Sox games.
   39. Gonfalon Bubble Posted: May 27, 2007 at 09:13 PM (#2380765)
Has anybody seen A-Rod's May :)
AB 88
2B 3
HR 5
RBI 10
AVG 0.250
OBP 0.371
SLG 0.455


Huzzah! Dave Winfield's nickname is safe!

Fenway fans are the ones who chanted "Shake! Shake!" at Jim Eisenreich. Angels fans leaned over the right field wall and pounded it to distract Reggie Sanders in the World Series, including the guy who thwacked him in the back with thundersticks. There's more than enough churlishness and misbehavior to go around.
   40. Random Transaction Generator Posted: May 27, 2007 at 11:05 PM (#2380876)
I also didn't find either of the YouTube videos scary, but that might just be me.

You didn't find two teenage boys being surrounded by loud (and obviously drunk) men, screaming and pointing at them in unison, yelling taunts about their sexuality, as "scary"?

Often the bullier, never the bullied, were you?
   41. NJ in NJ Posted: May 28, 2007 at 12:42 AM (#2380910)
You didn't find two teenage boys being surrounded by loud (and obviously drunk) men, screaming and pointing at them in unison, yelling taunts about their sexuality, as "scary"?

Often the bullier, never the bullied, were you?


There might be objections to their use of homosexuality as a taunt or what have you, but otherwise, it seemed like good natured joking to me. Nothing about it seemed threatening. And at 5'8.5'', I've never done TOO much bullying myself.
   42. Random Transaction Generator Posted: May 28, 2007 at 12:56 AM (#2380916)
Nothing about it seemed threatening.

Smaller.
Surrounded.
Taunted.
Loudly.

It's a tea party!
   43. birdlives is one crazy ninja Posted: May 28, 2007 at 03:27 AM (#2380982)
There might be objections to their use of homosexuality as a taunt or what have you, but otherwise, it seemed like good natured joking to me. Nothing about it seemed threatening.

It's just differences in regional cultures. I've lived in the south for awhile now and that behavior was completely foreign to me. You would NEVER see that type of taunting at Turner Field. But I can easily see how someone from NY would view the taunting as harmless.
   44. Hang down your head, Tom Foley Posted: May 28, 2007 at 03:35 AM (#2380984)
Cabrera didn't even mention Montreal fans, and he played more games there than in Anaheim or Boston. Another slap in the face.
   45. CiC Posted: May 28, 2007 at 03:50 AM (#2380985)

There might be objections to their use of homosexuality as a taunt or what have you, but otherwise, it seemed like good natured joking to me. Nothing about it seemed threatening. And at 5'8.5'', I've never done TOO much bullying myself.


I think it's a little more then just good natured joking to surround these guys and flail arms in their faces and so on. Heckling and talking crap back and forth to one another is one thing, but these guys paid for their seats and have the right to an enjoyable experience like everybody else, no matter what team they're rooting for.

Eight or ten guys standing around them, throwing arms inches from their face while singing "Why are you gay?" is not any sort of good-natured to me -- it's just malice. If it was good natured, why were the singling out the non-Yankee fans in their section?

And the ushers at Yankee stadium are absolutely apathetic, and pathetic. I guess when you're moving that many bodies every year you sort of have to learn not to take much ####, but they don't listen to fans whatsoever, don't really pay attention to the details of what their job is, don't handle in-game situations.. they pretty much make sure you get to your seat without pissing anybody off and follow the ballparks pre-set standard obligatinos (IE -- God Bless America nonsense). I've been in a lot of different ballparks and arenas in a lot of different sports and the response from the people who WORK FOR the team has not been as bad anywhere else. Not even close.

And finally, so far as the team goes, as a Yankee fan, I don't have the expectation that they win every game. I think some -- check that, a majority of Yankee fans might, but I am not apart of that. I do, however, expect the team to try (and care) about every game. And when you have prominent ex-teammates going public in stating that there are only a small handful of guys in that clubhouse who actually try or care in every game, then I have a problem, and that's where I am with this team right now. I get the impression that they're playing pretty bad, and just don't care, literally.
   46. GregD Posted: May 28, 2007 at 04:03 AM (#2380991)
From personal experience--a few years living in Boston and going to 8-10 games a year plus the same number roughly of White Sox and Phillies games while living in those fair cities--I'd say that the Boston fans were, in fact, kinder to both their team and the opponents but crueler to other fans. You do see more fights at Wrigley, but they are of the drunk fraternity kids variety. Fenway is the only place where I've seen real fights between fans and casual physical violence and quite a few beers thrown in people's faces. No idea why that is or what it adds up to.

Philly fans are tough on their teams. Friends who are from the town and longtime fans think this is in part a creation of the media--ESPN, Sports Illustrated, and the hideous talk radio--and that Philly fans weren't really that boo-happy until the papers started running so many stories about how much Philly fans boo. Now, fans think it's their job, or a part of their culture, even if it's a pretty new "tradition."

Aside from the handful of idiots who charge the umpires, White Sox fans are a lot of fun. Earthy and sometimes profane but a lot of serious game-watchers, since the casual folks have another outlet to pursue up the road.
   47. birdlives is one crazy ninja Posted: May 28, 2007 at 04:09 AM (#2380995)
Eight or ten guys standing around them, throwing arms inches from their face while singing "Why are you gay?" is not any sort of good-natured to me -- it's just malice. If it was good natured, why were the singling out the non-Yankee fans in their section?

Well, the poster never said it was good natured. I'm sure many of the bleacher creatures would proudly admit the taunting isn't good natured. The behavior is kind of malicious but that's just the cultural logic of the space. The poster said, "Nothing about it seemed threatening," which I can see as plausible if he's talking about physical harm. Again, it's just a different cultural mindset, which the Met fan in the video understands and engages by dancing along to the taunts.
   48. CiC Posted: May 28, 2007 at 04:17 AM (#2381000)
Well, the poster never said it was good natured. I'm sure many of the bleacher creatures would proudly admit the taunting isn't good natured. The behavior is kind of malicious but that's just the cultural logic of the space. The poster said, "Nothing about it seemed threatening," which I can see as plausible if he's talking about physical harm. Again, it's just a different cultural mindset, which the Met fan in the video understands and engages by dancing along to the taunts.

Well, if it's a cultural mindset I am just curious as to how far reaching or valid it is besides drunken idiots at ball games, y'know?

I live in the same state that the Yankees play, albeit it some hours away, and idea of what playful/not-threatening taunting is is different to me then that.

I think a paying fan has a right to a certain level of respect at a game. In the same breath, I think there's a limit to that, too.

There was a time I was sitting in the student section in the end zone of a college football game, and a older guy had bought tickets about eight rows behind the student section in a stadium that was otherwise about 40% full. It's tradition for the student section to stand the entire game -- that's just what we do, and this guy felt it necessary to stand up and scream at the 2,000 or so drunken kids to "sit down and enjoy the game like everybody else." When they didn't comply, and when the Usher said there was nothing he could do, the guy started a personal \"#### you" chant to the students of the team he was rooting for, and then half-way through the 3rd quarter demanded that every single one of us had our tickets checked, which resulted in him displacing a couple hundred fans who were like two sections down or something. The part with that sort of thing that bothers me is that he could have gotten up and moved to better seats at the 50 yard line in this stadium and nobody would have cared.

When interacting with other people at the ballpark or the Arena, sports can be amazing or just really unenjoyable. I've probably met some of the coolest, and worst people that I can think of in the same places.
   49. birdlives is one crazy ninja Posted: May 28, 2007 at 04:52 AM (#2381013)
Well, if it's a cultural mindset I am just curious as to how far reaching or valid it is besides drunken idiots at ball games, y'know?

How far reaching? I have zero clue. Valid? Who cares, it's their space, as long as they don't hurt anyone physically, they can do whatever the hell they want to. I thought the taunting was immature and stupid (although the guy dancing to the taunts was funny), but the fans there should be able to do whatever they want. And consumers, in response, can choose not to seat there if such behavior bothers them.
   50. The Original SJ Posted: May 28, 2007 at 04:55 AM (#2381014)
I also didn't find either of the YouTube videos scary, but that might just be me.

I saw no good natured joking in that video. Seeing that made me embarrassed to be a Yankee fan, to be a New Yorker, and to be a male.
   51. NJ in NJ Posted: May 28, 2007 at 04:59 AM (#2381015)
I live in the same state that the Yankees play, albeit it some hours away, and idea of what playful/not-threatening taunting is is different to me then that.

I live in the same state, same borough, probably about 15-20 minutes away and I would say it is entirely non-threatening. Had I been one of the persons being serenaded, I probably would have been pissed I'm not getting to see the game, but at no point would I have felt scared that something violent or truly malicious was about to take place. Different standards, I guess.
   52. The Original SJ Posted: May 28, 2007 at 05:00 AM (#2381016)
I think a paying fan has a right to a certain level of respect at a game. In the same breath, I think there's a limit to that, too.

Paying customer or not, a person has a right to not be maliciously harassed wherever they are.
   53. The Original SJ Posted: May 28, 2007 at 05:07 AM (#2381019)
as long as they don't hurt anyone physically, they can do whatever the hell they want to.

This is not true.
   54. AJMcCringleberry Posted: May 28, 2007 at 05:12 AM (#2381020)
And consumers, in response, can choose not to seat there if such behavior bothers them.

How are you supposed which seats are going to be occupied by drunken ########?
   55. Hombre Brotani Posted: May 28, 2007 at 05:28 AM (#2381022)
I just saw the video. How humiliating.
...the fans there should be able to do whatever they want.
Including keeping other fans from watching the game? Any thought as to what might happen if one of the fans being screamed at had he stood up and demanded they stop? It's a bad situation, and it invites worse.
   56. birdlives is one crazy ninja Posted: May 28, 2007 at 05:31 AM (#2381023)
This is not true.

Yeah, I was exaggerating a bit but I'm sure you get the drift of the post: free speech should be protected with the usual exceptions (e.g. yelling fire in a theater, hate crimes regulations). Obviously, they can't disrupt play (minus Jeffry Maier), etc.

How are you supposed which seats are going to be occupied by drunken ########?

Well, if you wear non-yankee gear any where at Yankee Stadium, I'm sure people will yell crap at you (e.g. "Team X SUCKS"). Free speech means people will occassionally say stuff to you that you don't like. But I'm assuming the pack like behavior of surrounding the offender and taunting him or her maliciously with homophoic slurs is specific to the bleachers. And again, as a consumer, you can simply choose to sit somewhere else if you don't want to put up with that idiocy.
   57. CiC Posted: May 28, 2007 at 05:35 AM (#2381024)

Well, if you wear non-yankee gear any where at Yankee Stadium, I'm sure people will yell crap at you (e.g. "Team X SUCKS"). Free speech means people will occassionally say stuff to you that you don't like. But I'm assuming the pack like behavior of surrounding the offender and taunting him or her maliciously with homophoic slurs is specific to the bleachers. And again, as a consumer, you can simply choose to sit somewhere else if you don't want to put up with that idiocy.


The incident in question appears to me to be somewhere in the upper deck.


I've sat in the upper deck in a section behind Red Sox fans before. We treated them fine. I mean, each case is it's own individually, but I don't know. I don't think there's a specific place in the stadium where that type of behavior should be considered expected, or ok...
   58. birdlives is one crazy ninja Posted: May 28, 2007 at 05:36 AM (#2381025)
Including keeping other fans from watching the game?

Sit somewhere else.
   59. birdlives is one crazy ninja Posted: May 28, 2007 at 05:37 AM (#2381026)
The incident in question appears to me to be somewhere in the upper deck.

No, I'm pretty sure that's the bleachers. If I'm wrong, I'll stand corrected though.
   60. The Original SJ Posted: May 28, 2007 at 05:42 AM (#2381029)
Sit somewhere else.

The victims should not have to move.
   61. Milford Blatti Posted: May 28, 2007 at 05:44 AM (#2381031)
Sit somewhere else.

This is fascinating. It seems the bleachers at Yankee Stadium are actually the Embassy for the Republic of Moronistan. U.S. law doesn't apply there.

Oh. Good to know. I'll steer clear.

One question: does it say on your ticket to the embassy that you will be subject to mass, idiotic, homophobic harassment and that you will have no recourse? 'cause they might want to add that to the fine print.
   62. birdlives is one crazy ninja Posted: May 28, 2007 at 05:45 AM (#2381033)
And on a side note, as an Orioles fan, what really annoys me is when Yankee fans take over OPACY and yell, "Let's go Yankees," etc. But again, they bought the ticket, they should have the right to yell whatever the hell they want even if it annoys me and other O's fans. Unfortunately, the O's play the Yanks at OPACY when Cal is inducted into the HOF this year. It's going to be such a shame to see OPACY filled with Yankee fans on Cal's day.
   63. The Original SJ Posted: May 28, 2007 at 05:46 AM (#2381034)
What if they were singing "why are you black?" instead of "why are you gay?"

Would you suggest the black customers suck it up and move sections?
   64. birdlives is one crazy ninja Posted: May 28, 2007 at 05:47 AM (#2381035)
The victims should not have to move.

Living in a democracy means sometimes you don't get your way. If it bothers you this much, start a campaign to buy up bleacher tickets with people who don't engage in moronic behavior.
   65. birdlives is one crazy ninja Posted: May 28, 2007 at 05:53 AM (#2381038)
What if they were singing "why are you black?" instead of "why are you gay?"

Would you suggest the black customers suck it up and move sections?


See post 65. And I might recommend seeking legal counsel to see if there are grounds for a civil suit, but I am not a lawyer. I know there are plenty of lawyers on BTF, feel free to weigh in. In any case, I'm sure the NAACP would be very interested in the matter.
   66. Milford Blatti Posted: May 28, 2007 at 05:56 AM (#2381041)
Living in a democracy means sometimes you don't get your way.

Rumsfeld, is that you?
   67. CiC Posted: May 28, 2007 at 06:00 AM (#2381045)
Living in a democracy means sometimes you don't get your way. If it bothers you this much, start a campaign to buy up bleacher tickets with people who don't engage in moronic behavior.

What does that even mean?

Since when has democracy meant the freedom for one group of people to be conniving ######## towards two other people? If anything, belittling and patronizing the minority and making it their responsibility to seek out resolution is markedly undemocratic.

And if it's not, I don't want to live in a democracy anymore. That's just stupid, I'm sorry to say.
   68. birdlives is one crazy ninja Posted: May 28, 2007 at 06:01 AM (#2381046)
"Living in a <strike> democracy</strike> Leo Straussain world means sometimes you don't get your way.

Rumsfeld, is that you?"

Not perfect, but just about fixed.
   69. birdlives is one crazy ninja Posted: May 28, 2007 at 06:05 AM (#2381049)
What does that even mean?

Since when has democracy meant the freedom for one group of people to be conniving ######## towards two other people?


As far as I know, nothing illegal has been done (maybe a hate crime regulation has been broken but I don't know). The bleachers are filled with people who share a homophobic mindset. Again, living in a democracy means that people with viewpoints opposing your viewpoint will gather and socialize with each other whether it is at Yankee Stadium or at your neighborhood Starbucks.
   70. CiC Posted: May 28, 2007 at 06:09 AM (#2381050)
As far as I know, nothing illegal has been done (maybe a hate crime regulation has been broken but I don't know). The bleachers are filled with people who share a homophobic mindset. Again, living in a democracy means that people with viewpoints opposing your viewpoint will gather and socialize with each other whether it is at Yankee Stadium or at your neighborhood Starbucks.

Legality has nothing to do with appropriateness. You can be a perfectly law biting citizen and still be a terrible person.

I'm not saying these fools are doing anything necessarily illegal. I'm just saying they're terrible people.
   71. birdlives is one crazy ninja Posted: May 28, 2007 at 06:11 AM (#2381051)
What does that even mean?

And just in case I wasn't clear, if you don't like the viewpoint on that turf, you have the freedom and right to change it via campaigning.
   72. AJMcCringleberry Posted: May 28, 2007 at 06:11 AM (#2381052)
As far as I know, nothing illegal has been done

Not illegal per se. I'm sure there are some rules against purposefully blocking the view of other fans. Or being abusive toward other fans.

Anyway, that has nothing do with whether these guys are complete ########.
   73. birdlives is one crazy ninja Posted: May 28, 2007 at 06:12 AM (#2381053)
I'm just saying they're terrible people.

Me too damn it.
   74. Cutter Posted: May 28, 2007 at 06:15 AM (#2381054)
Hey, you may get taunted at Yankee Stadium for wearing Red Sox gear in the bleachers. But at Fenway you may git hit by flying pizza regardless of what you wear.......
   75. Tom Cervo, backup catcher Posted: May 28, 2007 at 06:26 AM (#2381057)
But at Fenway you may git hit by flying pizza regardless of what you wear.......


Hey, if it's from Pino's I say bring it on.

And as a Yankees fan, I hate most Yankees fans. Too many are idiots, homophobes, and just plain 'ol jackasses.
   76. Hombre Brotani Posted: May 28, 2007 at 06:27 AM (#2381058)
Including keeping other fans from watching the game?

Sit somewhere else.
Where it that simple. It's possible that Yankee Stadium is a magical place where any ticket holder can sit in any seat they want, but I'm guessing those people bought tickets for those every specific seats. No other seat in the entire stadium is theirs to move to. It's not about living in a democracy, and it's not about what's legal. People who bought tickets to attend and enjoy a baseball game where bullied and harassed. There's no condoning or defending that sort of action.
   77. The Original SJ Posted: May 28, 2007 at 06:27 AM (#2381059)
Not illegal per se.

Actually, something illegal has occurred.

1. A person commits a hate crime when he or she commits a specified offense and either: (a) intentionally selects the person against whom the offense is committed or intended to be committed in whole or in substantial part because of a belief or perception regarding the race, color, national origin, ancestry, gender, religion, religious practice, age, disability or sexual orientation of a person, regardless of whether the belief or perception is correct, or ....

...section 240.25 (harassment in the first degree);


Section 240.25

A person is guilty of harassment in the first degree when he or she intentionally and repeatedly harasses another person by following such person in or about a public place or places or by engaging in a course of conduct or by repeatedly committing acts which places such person in reasonable fear of physical injury.


Most people would believe there was a reasonable fear of injury. Which would make this a hate crime, and thusly much more serious.

240.36 does not involve the threat of injury, it is just "annoy in a public place." It is pretty clear they would be guilty of that.
   78. Dr. Vaux Posted: May 28, 2007 at 06:30 AM (#2381061)
See, the thing I have against that is that it's impossible to disprove. If I rob another white person, I might have selected a white person instead of the black people who were around because of my perception that the white person was likely to be richer. I might choose a middle-aged person over a bunch of younger and older people for the same reason. It's then a "hate crime?"
   79. The Original SJ Posted: May 28, 2007 at 06:30 AM (#2381062)
And as a Yankees fan, I hate most Yankees fans. Too many are idiots, homophobes, and just plain 'ol jackasses.

I don't think this is a Yankee specific problem, I think you can replace "Yankee fan" with "American" and the sentence would still work.
   80. Tom Cervo, backup catcher Posted: May 28, 2007 at 06:32 AM (#2381063)
but I'm guessing those people bought tickets for those every specific seats.


Not only that, but if they were in the bleachers, they can't even move to another part of the park as it is closed off because they don't allow alochol there. And when you're there, switching seats within that section is really not going to do anything.
   81. The Original SJ Posted: May 28, 2007 at 06:32 AM (#2381064)
I was anti-hate crime legislation, but has made me reconsider my position. I am back to undecided.
   82. Tom Cervo, backup catcher Posted: May 28, 2007 at 06:34 AM (#2381065)
I don't think this is a Yankee specific problem, I think you can replace "Yankee fan" with "American" and the sentence would still work.


True enough, but I have higher expectations of New Yorkers than the average American, especially regarding homophobia.
   83. Dr. Vaux Posted: May 28, 2007 at 06:36 AM (#2381066)
And goodness, I've been harassed on an average of one out of every three days of my life by that definition.
   84. CiC Posted: May 28, 2007 at 06:37 AM (#2381067)
There is something that is very different about calling a person a derogatory homosexual slang or implying that being gay is negative in comparison to a black person, though. It's a weird type of hate crime.

I am 20. If you get most any male my age angry enough at you, chances are that when they lash out at you verbally they're going to call you a "faggot" or some variation there of. That's inexcusable. I don't know this to be the case (I could very well be wrong), but I don't think that forty years ago, a 20 year old who was red-hot would call someone the "n" word just because it communicated that frustration.

I don't know if what I'm saying makes any sense, now that I think about it.

But that, to me, just seems even extra hateful.
   85. AJMcCringleberry Posted: May 28, 2007 at 06:45 AM (#2381069)
I don't think a hate crime occurred, they were chosen because they were fans of another team, not because of any perceived "gayness".

Now, I would say they were definitely being harassed.
   86. birdlives is one crazy ninja Posted: May 28, 2007 at 07:00 AM (#2381073)
People who bought tickets to attend and enjoy a baseball game where bullied and harassed. There's no condoning or defending that sort of action.

I am not condoning or defending homophobic behavior. I am defending freedom of speech. Are those guys homophobic jerks? Sure. Is it nice to go to ball game w/o people saying mean stuff to you? Absolutely. But that's the norm there and if you don't like, 1) feel free to engage in actions to change it, 2) seek legal counsel to see if you have a civil suit, or 3) get tickets in a different part of the stadium.
   87. birdlives is one crazy ninja Posted: May 28, 2007 at 07:02 AM (#2381074)
Most people would believe there was a reasonable fear of injury. Which would make this a hate crime, and thusly much more serious.

Like I said before, I'm not a lawyer but if those actions were legally defined as a misdemeanor or felony under a hate crime regulation, then those jerks should be removed from the stadium.
   88. Biff, highly-regarded young guy Posted: May 28, 2007 at 07:06 AM (#2381076)
3) get tickets in a different part of the stadium.

I don't understand why you keep saying this. You've already bought tickets and gone to your assigned seats. Why would you buy more tickets to change your seats? That doesn't make any sense.
   89. IronChef Chris Wok Posted: May 28, 2007 at 07:10 AM (#2381078)
Road team fans generally get treated better when that road team is losing. i got treated fine in McAfee, because the Sox were swept. Some guys yelled "swept" in my face, but they shook my hand when I offered it.

I am 20. If you get most any male my age angry enough at you, chances are that when they lash out at you verbally they're going to call you a "faggot" or some variation there of.

Does the word \"#########\" denigrate the French? just wondering.

but I don't think that forty years ago, a 20 year old who was red-hot would call someone the "n" word just because it communicated that frustration.


dude, that word is a COMPLIMENT these days. Don't you watch Dave Chapelle?
   90. birdlives is one crazy ninja Posted: May 28, 2007 at 07:13 AM (#2381080)
I don't understand why you keep saying this. You've already bought tickets and gone to your assigned seats. Why would you buy more tickets to change your seats? That doesn't make any sense.

Lesson for next time my friend. Until then, you're going to have put up with taunting if you were unfortunate enough to wear non-Yankee gear to Yankee stadium. Does it suck? Of course but dems the breaks.
   91. Raskolnikov Posted: May 28, 2007 at 07:17 AM (#2381081)
I am defending freedom of speech. Are those guys homophobic jerks? Sure. Is it nice to go to ball game w/o people saying mean stuff to you? Absolutely. But that's the norm there and if you don't like,

I don't see where freedom of speech enables a mob to harass or verbally abuse someone. And it's definitely not the norm - I don't know what kind of stadium you frequent, but I tend to expect a higher level of civility.

This strikes me as a failure of Yankee Stadium security to recognize a problem and halt it, not a "suck it up and take it or move if you don't like it" type of problem.
   92. birdlives is one crazy ninja Posted: May 28, 2007 at 07:26 AM (#2381085)
I don't see where freedom of speech enables a mob to harass or verbally abuse someone. And it's definitely not the norm - I don't know what kind of stadium you frequent, but I tend to expect a higher level of civility.

Oh, it's definitely not the norm but it's the norm for the Yankee bleachers. And of course I expect a higher level of civility. But I'm not the moral police. And at Yankee stadium, the norm for appropriate behavior is different from my standards. But I can't, nor should I, impose my moral standards onto the several hundreds of people standing in the Yankee bleachers. I can either campaign to change it or see if I have a civil case. Or easist solution, not wear non-Yankee gear into the Yankee bleachers unless I feel like being harrassed that day.
   93. Raskolnikov Posted: May 28, 2007 at 07:26 AM (#2381086)
Until then, you're going to have put up with taunting if you were unfortunate enough to wear non-Yankee gear to Yankee stadium. Does it suck? Of course but dems the breaks.

Uh, yeah. The audacity of a fan of the minority to express his or her allegiance. She has no right to enjoy the game. Thanks for clarifying, Mr. Ruler of the World.
   94. birdlives is one crazy ninja Posted: May 28, 2007 at 07:31 AM (#2381087)
Uh, yeah. The audacity of a fan of the minority to express his or her allegiance. She has no right to enjoy the game.

Like I said, I'm not the moral police.


Thanks for clarifying, Mr. Ruler of the World.

And you thought the Yankee Bleacher creatures were mean!
   95. CiC Posted: May 28, 2007 at 07:32 AM (#2381088)
Lesson for next time my friend. Until then, you're going to have put up with taunting if you were unfortunate enough to wear non-Yankee gear to Yankee stadium. Does it suck? Of course but dems the breaks.

You're weird. You seem to think people should have the foresight to know which people in which locations in given stadiums are going to be terrible people.
   96. CiC Posted: May 28, 2007 at 07:34 AM (#2381089)
Oh, it's definitely not the norm but it's the norm for the Yankee bleachers. And of course I expect a higher level of civility. But I'm not the moral police. And at Yankee stadium, the norm for appropriate behavior is different from my standards. But I can't, nor should I, impose my moral standards onto the several hundreds of people standing in the Yankee bleachers. I can either campaign to change it or see if I have a civil case. Or easist solution, not wear non-Yankee gear into the Yankee bleachers unless I feel like being harrassed that day.

When the moral police fail to see to their duties, it is our job, nay, responsibility as Americans to raise an army....
   97. Raskolnikov Posted: May 28, 2007 at 07:35 AM (#2381090)
But I can't, nor should I, impose my moral standards onto the several hundreds of people standing in the Yankee bleachers. I can either campaign to change it or see if I have a civil case. Or easist solution, not wear non-Yankee gear into the Yankee bleachers unless I feel like being harrassed that day.

Some level of moral standards have to be imposed in any situation. It's not you or I who determines or imposes it. It's the Yankee organization that needs to do so, ultimately because it forms the perception of how enjoyable a trip to Yankee stadium is. I don't think they want people to think that a typical trip to Yankee stadium involves getting taunted by a mass of drunken hooligans.

I have no problem with fans making open derogatory chants like "Red Sox sucks" or the like. In fact, Yankee stadium bleachers has a chant like that, where they start pointing towards each of the AL East cities and start chanting, Baltimore sucks, Boston sucks, ... everybody sucks." That's fine.

But once a mob starts directing their hostility at particular individuals or groups, particularly if they use racist or homophobic language, that's crossing the line. That's way crossing the line.
   98. birdlives is one crazy ninja Posted: May 28, 2007 at 07:40 AM (#2381092)
You're weird.

Damn, people are really pissed with me!

You seem to think people should have the foresight to know which people in which locations in given stadiums are going to be terrible people.

Dems the break. All I can say is that it's best to do a little research if possible in order to avoid wasting money on a ticket. Ask knowledgeable baseball friends, I'm sure they'll be able to tell you that you'll be taunted endlessly if you walk into the bleachers with non-Yankee gear.

When the moral police fail to see to their duties, it is our job, nay, responsibility as Americans to raise an army....

Absolutely. Or if Darwin was right, they'll be eventually weeded out so the problem might take care of itself.
   99. The Anthony Kennedy of BBTF (Scott) Posted: May 28, 2007 at 07:42 AM (#2381093)
So the ushers at Yankee Stadium make sure that people don't move around during God Bless America, but they stand by and watch that systematic abuse of fans?

That's all kinds of f*cked-up.


calling people faggots and ridiculing them is patriotic. moving around during god bless america supports the terrorists.

besides, they were Boston fans, and we all know that New Englanders hate Freedom and Liberty and want to hug Terror.
   100. birdlives is one crazy ninja Posted: May 28, 2007 at 07:50 AM (#2381095)
Some level of moral standards have to be imposed in any situation. It's not you or I who determines or imposes it. It's the Yankee organization that needs to do so, ultimately because it forms the perception of how enjoyable a trip to Yankee stadium is. I don't think they want people to think that a typical trip to Yankee stadium involves getting taunted by a mass of drunken hooligans.

But once a mob starts directing their hostility at particular individuals or groups, particularly if they use racist or homophobic language, that's crossing the line. That's way crossing the line.

It's absolutely crossing the line in my book. But the majority of people who frequent the Yankee bleacher condone, if not outright participate in such lame behavior. If that's the way they want to act, then so be it. All of them paid money to seat there, they have a right to act like ########. Do I like it when people act like ########? Of course not. Do I think people should be sanctioned according to somebody's particular moral standards? Of course not. And yes, the Yankee organization can step in and dictate the moral standards for the bleachers. But until it hurts ticket sales, I doubt they'll do anything. Would I be happy if the Yankee organizaton said, "Play Nice," to the bleacher creatures? Sure. Should they start sanctioning what people say if I find it offensive? No.

Alright, I'm off to bed. Thanks for the lively discussion.
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