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Saturday, April 26, 2008

Ledezma plunks Conor Jackson for swinging too hard.

Post game host on Channel 4, Bob Scanlan got real fired up talking about Ledezma hitting Conor Jackson in the ribs after he swung so hard that he fell to his knees in the previous pitch.

“Can you swing any harder than that? Come on now. You can’t be swinging hard like that. A message has got to be sent and Wil Ledezma does it.”

Ledezma hits Jackson in the ribs with the next pitch.

“Wear that! I’m not for hurting people but at the same time you cannot have batters standing in that batters box swinging as hard as they possibly can and think that you aren’t going to send a message… He came in, he wasn’t head hunting, he went right for the ribs. You know what? You don’t like it Conor? You know where to find me!

“You’ve got to send a message, not just to Conor Jackson but to that entire Arizona Diamondback ball club. You want to swing hard like that? Do it against the Dodgers. Do it against the Giants. Go ahead and swing like that against the Colorado Rockies, but you aren’t going to do it here against the San Diego Padres here in Petco Park. Well done Wil Ledezma.”

The question was raised in the Lounge, how recent of an addition is this to baseball’s unwritten rules? I’ve asked a few people if they’ve ever heard of this practice before this season and all have said no.

We don't have dahlians at the Palace of Wisdom Posted: April 26, 2008 at 06:50 AM | 98 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
Tags: announcers, arizona, history, padres

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1. Belfry Bob Posted: April 26, 2008 at 11:28 AM (#2759634)

Oh, this one's been going on for quite awhile, there's nothing recent about it. (I don't agree with it, mind you. How 'manly' is it to throw a baseball at someone because you thought they were 'trying too hard'?)

I was at an O's-Rangers game years ago at Camden when Cal hit an early-game home run off of Nolan Ryan. Next up was Mike Devereaux, who swung out of his shoes at a fastball. I turned to my wife and said, 'next one, he's going down.'

It was worse than just 'going down.' He didn't have a chance; Ryan blasted him in the rib cage.

Mind you, that was the end of the Orioles' home run rampage, and the Rangers eventually won the game...but I still think it's a bush move to throw at someone for 'swinging hard.'

2. Hello Rusty Kuntz, Goodbye Rusty Cars Posted: April 26, 2008 at 11:38 AM (#2759635)

I think there was an article posted here a couple of weeks ago that mentioned somebody swinging too hard and the crusty old sportswriter wrote something like "Do you think Bob Gibson would have let him get away with that?"

3. ??'s Biggest Fan! Posted: April 26, 2008 at 11:41 AM (#2759636)

What's next? I think a batter should "accidentally" lose their grip on their bat and tomahawk it in the direction of Jake Peavey the next time he's throwing too hard and showing up the other team.

4. Swedish Chef Posted: April 26, 2008 at 12:35 PM (#2759638)

What the is the message that's being sent? "Swing hard and we'll reward your hitters with free bases"?

5. Cyclone Alley Posted: April 26, 2008 at 12:40 PM (#2759639)

Bob Brenly mentioned this unwritten rule about a week ago during a game. Not new by any means.

6. SacBunt Posted: April 26, 2008 at 12:44 PM (#2759640)

Woe be to Dustin Pedroia and Gary Sheffield when they meet Wil Ledezma. Oh, and Babe Ruth:

"I swing big, with everything I've got. I hit big or I miss big. I like to live as big as I can."

What an #######!

7. MSI Posted: April 26, 2008 at 12:47 PM (#2759641)

WTF? Why aren't you supposed to swing hard? You're trying to hit it out of the park. ####### dumbass.

8. Padraic Posted: April 26, 2008 at 12:47 PM (#2759642)

For some reason, it's not really swinging hard, but the out of control swings that bother pitchers. Players like (the old) Ryan Howard and Justin Upton generate(d) ridiculous bat speed, but under control.

If I had to delve into the reasoning, I would say it's because a wild swing indicates that the batter thinks he can tee off on the pitcher's weak stuff. A lack of respect if you will.

It is funny to see a quote like this, however:

you cannot have batters standing in that batters box swinging as hard as they possibly can

9. Colin Posted: April 26, 2008 at 01:04 PM (#2759644)

Do batters make good contact when they take such mighty swings?

10. calhounite Posted: April 26, 2008 at 01:16 PM (#2759646)

All the unwritten rules in baseball have evolved to enhance the safety aspects of the sport. The pitcher is throwing a guided missile in the direction of the hitter. The pitcher is responsible for not killing the batter. But the hitter SHARES responsibilty. He can't go up solely focused on hitting. Has to be ready to dive and duck. So long as the pitcher believes that the hitter is pulling his weight toward the essential objective (not get anyone killed), then he'll do his job (try to get an out) and let the batter do his (try to get a hit), but putting all the onus on the pitcher requires a "reminder."

11. rfloh Posted: April 26, 2008 at 01:18 PM (#2759647)

I would say it's because a wild swing indicates that the batter thinks he can tee off on the pitcher's weak stuff. A lack of respect if you will.

So, would a wild pitch, way outside the strike zone, indicate that the pitcher thinks that the batter has absolutely no plate discipline and will chase junk? A lack of respect, if you will.

12. Lassus Posted: April 26, 2008 at 01:23 PM (#2759648)

It would be nice if some smart ballplayer called this type of utterly retarded reasoning out.

So, I won't be holding my breath.

13. Francoeur Sans Gages (AlouGoodbye) Posted: April 26, 2008 at 01:35 PM (#2759652)

All the unwritten rules in baseball have evolved to enhance the safety aspects of the sport. The pitcher is throwing a guided missile in the direction of the hitter. The pitcher is responsible for not killing the batter. But the hitter SHARES responsibilty. He can't go up solely focused on hitting. Has to be ready to dive and duck. So long as the pitcher believes that the hitter is pulling his weight toward the essential objective (not get anyone killed), then he'll do his job (try to get an out) and let the batter do his (try to get a hit), but putting all the onus on the pitcher requires a "reminder."

Really, you slay me.

So when Manny Ramirez violates the unwritten rules by admiring a home run, we're supposed to believe this is some sort of safety issue?

Most of the unwritten rules in baseball have evolved because idiots like to turn the genteel game of baseball into a you-know-what-measuring-contest. Conor Jackson's sin is not that he broke some safety rule, it's that he offended Ledezma's amour propre.

14. Harveys Wallbangers

Posted: April 26, 2008 at 01:56 PM (#2759656)

Dahlian:

Buzzing a hitter for a big swing goes back a ways. Certainly a fair number of the pitchers in the '60's were quick to act in that type of situation.

Gotta remember that in a pitcher's era a hurler had more latitude because with offense depressed putting a runner on didn't have the same risk as now.

But then it's also true that hitters coming out of their shoes on a swing wasn't something you saw semi-regularly until the same timeframe. Which may be somewhat tied to offense coming mostly from home runs. So guys began really taking their hacks.

Roger Angell wrote a passage about Bob Gibson clocking John Milner in the head in SPRING TRAINING over a big swing.

So there is history....

15. calhounite Posted: April 26, 2008 at 01:58 PM (#2759657)

Yea, that's (admiring a homerun) called pissing off the missile thrower..NOT smart..so's being unusually hot (where you MAY be sayin to the pitch "I not be caring too much about my own safety lately"..so's swinging from your heels where you're definitely sayin to the pitch "Hey, pitch, you gotta be extra careful not to hit me cuz I sure as hell aint".

That's the game. Jack. It's EVOLVED to this. If there wasn't a safety benefit, it wouldn't have.

16. Tricky Dick Posted: April 26, 2008 at 02:00 PM (#2759658)

I thought this "unwritten rule" was a relic of the past (e.g., 1980's and earlier). In an earlier era, hitters didn't swing for the fences on every pitch and were expected to cut down their swing, in order to ensure contact, in 2 strike situations or when they face tough pitchers. So, in that context, you can see how the wild swing is interpreted as a lack of respect for the pitcher. In today's game, most power hitters are swinging for the fences constantly and strike outs aren't as much of a black mark for a hitter. So I don't recall seeing the retaliation for a big swing in recent years.

The "lack of respect" rationale seems kind of silly today. But I can see some legitimate pitching reasons for the high and tight pitch when a batter's wild swing indicates that he is getting too comfortable in the batter's box. I'm not saying to hit the batter intentionally, but send a message that he can't dig in to the batter's box without any fear of having to move.

17. Barry`s_Lazy_Boy Posted: April 26, 2008 at 02:03 PM (#2759660)

What is the safety benefit of not bunting for a hit in a no-hitter?

18. 1k5v3L

Posted: April 26, 2008 at 02:14 PM (#2759665)

Scanlan goes on to compliment Bob Melvin for keeping his guys under control and not letting them light a spark underneath the Padres, by retaliating.

Oh, they retaliated, by hammering the #### out of Wolf and the Padres.

19. calhounite Posted: April 26, 2008 at 02:16 PM (#2759666)

safety benefit same as not admiring the homerun..won't piss off the missile thrower..The guy DOES have a ball, and is allowed to throw it the hitter's general direction at 100mph. Under thoses circumstances, a lot of unwritten rules have evolved so as not to piss him off.

20. Gambling Rent Czar Posted: April 26, 2008 at 02:16 PM (#2759667)

“You’ve got to send a message, not just to Conor Jackson but to that entire Arizona Diamondback ball club. You want to swing hard like that? Do it against the Dodgers. Do it against the Giants. Go ahead and swing like that against the Colorado Rockies, but you aren’t going to do it here against the San Diego Padres here in Petco Park. Well done Wil Ledezma.”

I Concur!

21. 1k5v3L

Posted: April 26, 2008 at 02:17 PM (#2759668)

I think there was an article posted here a couple of weeks ago that mentioned somebody swinging too hard and the crusty old sportswriter wrote something like "Do you think Bob Gibson would have let him get away with that?"

I don't know if you mean this, but Tracy Ringsolsby wrote recently on foxsports that in the good old days, Justin Upton would've received a pitch in the head for swinging so hard at a Jeff Francis pitch, he almost fell on his butt. Instead, Upton received another strike and hit it out of the ballpark. Methinks Ringolsby needs to receive a literary pitch in the head for swinging really hard and missing really bad with all of his articles.

22. Matt Clement of Alexandria Posted: April 26, 2008 at 02:30 PM (#2759672)

Most of the unwritten rules in baseball have evolved because idiots like to turn the genteel game of baseball into a you-know-what-measuring-contest.

I know what you're getting at here, but I'd just like to point out that baseball was never actually genteel - from the earliest years of the sport there are stories of all forms of you-know-what measuring contests and fights and general mayhem. One can argue that the game of baseball in essentially genteel - I would disagree, but regardless - but that's a philosophical rather than historical argument. Historically, there's no point where a previously pure game was "turned into" something else. This is a debate as old as the sport, as old as sport.

23. GregQ Posted: April 26, 2008 at 02:31 PM (#2759673)

I think I once saw Luis Tiant try this but the batter simply walked to the on-deck circle and got more pine tar and then wandered back to the box and waited for the pitch. I once really did see him throw a pitch to Reggie Jackson, and due to that odd motion that Tiant had Jackson started to swing and held back at least twice before taking a might cut at the ball, missing and then corkscrewing himself so badly that he fell over trying to straighten up. It seems that the answer to a guy swinging out of his shoes is to throw off speed stuff and just embarrass him.

24. Voros McCracken of Pinkus Posted: April 26, 2008 at 03:02 PM (#2759681)

What's next? I think a batter should "accidentally" lose their grip on their bat and tomahawk it in the direction of Jake Peavey the next time he's throwing too hard and showing up the other team.

I personally think it's long overdue for hitters to throw their bats at pitchers who throw at hitters.

I mean why does all the violence get to head one way?

I've said this many times (and am in the small minority here), but a pitcher intentionally hitting a batter with a pitch is committing assault, pure and simple, and he should be charged as such.

25. Hal Chase Headley Lamarr Hoyt Wilhelm (ACE1242) Posted: April 26, 2008 at 03:06 PM (#2759682)

a pitcher intentionally hitting a batter with a pitch is committing assault

IANAL but ITYM "battery," not "assault."

26. joker24 Posted: April 26, 2008 at 03:12 PM (#2759684)

To be a detail prick it'd be more battery, and that'd be as dumb as say I dunno: throwing at a guy for taking a wild hack.

Besides, usually when they are "convicted" of intentionally throwing a ball at someone they are fined way, way more than would a court system award anyway.

27. rfloh Posted: April 26, 2008 at 03:19 PM (#2759685)

The guy DOES have a ball, and is allowed to throw it the hitter's general direction at 100mph. Under thoses circumstances, a lot of unwritten rules have evolved so as not to piss him off.

So, basically, you're saying that the pitchers gets to do whatever he wants, if he gets "pissed off"? Why even have written rules?

28. Hal Chase Headley Lamarr Hoyt Wilhelm (ACE1242) Posted: April 26, 2008 at 03:23 PM (#2759686)

#26 - That's MISTER Detail Prick to you, buddy.

29. Gromit Posted: April 26, 2008 at 03:32 PM (#2759688)

Scanman's just bitter that the Padres are currently swinging like <bleep>

30. Voros McCracken of Pinkus Posted: April 26, 2008 at 03:34 PM (#2759689)

Okay fine, battery. Take him off the mound in handcuffs and put him in lockup until he's bonded out. Better yet, chain him to a wall and have Ron Cey and Dickie Thon come by and kick him in the groin repeatedly.

It's BS. You got a problem with a guy. Meet him in the damn parking lot after the game.

31. Charlie O Posted: April 26, 2008 at 03:37 PM (#2759693)

There was a game about fifteen years ago when a hitter took a big swing against Randy Johnson. I think it was on a 3-0 pitch in spring training. Johnson brought the next pitch under his chin. When questioned about it after the game, he explained that if he was doing his job right, a hitter would never feel comfortable enough at the plate to take a big hack like that against him. So when he saw someone do it, he felt obliged to send a reminder of how unsafe it was to do so.

32. Boots Day Posted: April 26, 2008 at 03:45 PM (#2759694)

What is the safety benefit of not bunting for a hit in a no-hitter?

September 11, 1987, Mets and Cardinals are dueling down the stretch for the NL East, Ron Darling is working on a no-hitter when Vince Coleman lays down a bunt against him. Darling, trying to field the bunt, ends up landing on his thumb, tearing a ligament. Mets lose game, pitcher, pennant race.

33. Lassus Posted: April 26, 2008 at 03:48 PM (#2759695)

This would make more sense if a pitcher just said: "If he swings harder, he might hit it out, so I'm trying to keep him from swinging that hard. That's my job, trying to prevent him from doing HIS job." This whole "respect" and "unwritten rules" thing is ridiculous, sad, and pathetic. Little leaguers are more mature, seriously. If a pitcher expects respect, he should give respect. Oy.

34. Voros McCracken of Pinkus Posted: April 26, 2008 at 03:48 PM (#2759696)

So when he saw someone do it, he felt obliged to send a reminder of how unsafe it was to do so.

So if the hitter then came out to the mound bat in hand, taking some hard cuts at Johnson's kneecaps, would that simply be a "reminder of how unsafe it was to throw baseballs at his chin?"

It's absolute madness.

35. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: April 26, 2008 at 03:57 PM (#2759697)

Throwing at a guys head is bullshit.

But, throwing inside at ribs/butt level has always been a part of the game.

Pitchers can't pitch effectively if a hitter can just hang over the plate and be completely comfortable. The pitcher has a right to throw inside, and the hitter needs to be able to get out of the way. A player swinging out of his shoes can't get out of the way. So, a pitcher is going to remind you if you do that.

36. Voros McCracken of Pinkus Posted: April 26, 2008 at 04:06 PM (#2759699)

37. Best Regards, President of Comfort, Esq., LLC Posted: April 26, 2008 at 04:07 PM (#2759700)

I was at an O's-Rangers game years ago at Camden when Cal hit an early-game home run off of Nolan Ryan. Next up was Mike Devereaux, who swung out of his shoes at a fastball. I turned to my wife and said, 'next one, he's going down.'

It was worse than just 'going down.' He didn't have a chance; Ryan blasted him in the rib cage.

This game

Actually, next up was Sam Horn, who hit a *TRIPLE*. Then Devereaux got plunked.

38. Internet Commenter Posted: April 26, 2008 at 04:08 PM (#2759701)

Wear that! I'm not for hurting people but at the same time you cannot have batters standing in that batters box swinging as hard as they possibly can and think that you aren't going to send a message.

You can't have it both ways.

Also, it's probably not the best idea to send a message to the Diamondbacks the night before an Owings start.

39. joker24 Posted: April 26, 2008 at 04:22 PM (#2759704)

So what do you plan on doing about it? There's no way to create a reasonable solution. 99% of HBPs could easily be unintentional...and that IS part of the game. For all we know Ledezma lost grip on that ball and it happened in a coincidental manner; it's only the announcers assertion it was intentional. If you were to take that pitch as battery to a court of law you'd get rejected pretty well immediately, that option is not remotely on the table.

Is throwing at a guy good or reasonable reaction? Of course not, this guy is a jackass for making that point. However there's no reasonable way you are going to decipher which ones are intentional and which ones aren't moreso than they are already identified because the difference between hitting the inside black and hitting ribs is 12 inches. And guess what, the guys where it's obvious get suspended for multiple game checks which can easily be hundreds of thousands of dollars but go ahead thinking a $500 court fee or whatever would make a difference.

40. Voros McCracken of Pinkus Posted: April 26, 2008 at 04:37 PM (#2759711)

So what do you plan on doing about it?

Arrest him? Throw him out of the league? Allow the batter to take a few swipes at him with a Louisville Slugger and give both the same punishment? You prove it the same way pretty much all crimes are proved nowadays. The offender confesses. Just like Randy Johnson did above.

Why the hell is the pitcher singularly allowed to attack hitters? It's the dumbest thing by a landslide in all of American professional sports and its dangerous.

If a woman in LA gets 45 days in jail for selling a bacon-dog, Ledezma can get 30 days for this.

41. Hal Chase Headley Lamarr Hoyt Wilhelm (ACE1242) Posted: April 26, 2008 at 04:37 PM (#2759712)

So what do you plan on doing about it?

1. Redraw the inside line of the batter's box 3"-6" further back from the plate.

2. Enforce #1. If the pitcher delivers a pitch and you're not in the box, it's a strike no matter where it goes. (This would have other positive side effects that we've covered elsewhere.)

3. Stop calling strikes on pitches way outside (which is what forces batters to stand out over the plate in the first place).

4. HBP = automatic ejection for the pitcher. Oh, it was accidental? Next time, be more careful. If it was deliberate, 15 days unpaid vacation will give the pitcher an opportunity to reflect on his philosophy.

VMF, you're 100% correct that tiny fines have no deterrent effect. Missing large amounts of playing time? Now you're talking.

42. J. Michael Neal Posted: April 26, 2008 at 04:45 PM (#2759715)

Pitchers can't pitch effectively if a hitter can just hang over the plate and be completely comfortable. The pitcher has a right to throw inside, and the hitter needs to be able to get out of the way. A player swinging out of his shoes can't get out of the way. So, a pitcher is going to remind you if you do that.

Then let's enforce the batter's box. Move it a few more inches off the plate, if we have to. There are better ways to deal with this problem than to start throwing at people.

43. Internet Commenter Posted: April 26, 2008 at 04:52 PM (#2759718)

An HBP could result in second base for the batter and all runners advancing two bases.

44. Gambling Rent Czar Posted: April 26, 2008 at 04:53 PM (#2759719)

Wha what?

Ledezma didn't throw at him.
It just got away. slipped coming out of his hand probably.
If you watch the replay, Bard was set up inside. He had that target about four inches from Conor Jacksons ribs.

it just got away a little. :)

45. Long-Time Fan Posted: April 26, 2008 at 04:56 PM (#2759721)

I remember watching a game in the 1980's, and Don Drysdale was the color analyst. Dave Winfield took one of his ridiculous, massive, corkscrew swings, and hit a hard foul ball. (Ridiculous only because it seemed that he would have been a much better hitter, with just as much power, if he just took a normal swing. But maybe a normal swing was impossible for a 6'6" hitter with a large ego.)

Drysdale commented on how he would have had to knock Winfield down after that, saying something along the lines of "You just can't let a hitter swing that hard". As if pitchers were restricted in how hard they were allowed to throw that round rock.

46. The Piehole of David Wells

Posted: April 26, 2008 at 05:12 PM (#2759726)

Methinks Ringolsby needs to receive a literary pitch in the head for swinging really hard and missing really bad with all of his articles.

stay classy, levski.

[edit: misread user handle. thought it was keith law, now i realize that it wasn't worth responding to in the first place. meh.]

47. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: April 26, 2008 at 05:14 PM (#2759731)

Then let's enforce the batter's box. Move it a few more inches off the plate, if we have to. There are better ways to deal with this problem than to start throwing at people.

How about this. Move the batter's box from 6" off the plate to 9". If any part of the batter is over the line and is struck by a pitched ball, it's just a ball, batter does not get 1B.

Pitchers could then effectively pitch inside, and crowding the plate is much harder. No need to head hunt.

48. joker24 Posted: April 26, 2008 at 05:24 PM (#2759745)

1. Redraw the inside line of the batter's box 3"-6" further back from the plate.

So we're going to do something to protect hitters that they don't want. Awesome idea guys. Out of the box (pardon the pun) thinking. I'd like to take a poll to see how many hitters (the people you are trying to protect) would trade 3-6 inches of plate coverage in order to not be plunked. I bet the average response would be "*laugh*".

4. HBP = automatic ejection for the pitcher. Oh, it was accidental? Next time, be more careful.

See now I say if a hitter hits a ball back at the pitcher he should be ejected. It's not intentional but the batter needs to be more careful. I needed to edit this: ####### retarded.

Arrest him? Throw him out of the league? Allow the batter to take a few swipes at him with a Louisville Slugger and give both the same punishment? You prove it the same way pretty much all crimes are proved nowadays. The offender confesses. Just like Randy Johnson did above.

Why the hell is the pitcher singularly allowed to attack hitters? It's the dumbest thing by a landslide in all of American professional sports and its dangerous.

If a woman in LA gets 45 days in jail for selling a bacon-dog, Ledezma can get 30 days for this.

Annnnnd you read one sentence and missed the entire cruise ship liner on that one, so I'll slightly edit it for you and post the important part again this time in quotes:

There's no way to create a reasonable solution. 99% of HBPs could easily be unintentional. For all we know Ledezma lost grip on that ball and it happened in a coincidental manner; it's only the announcers assertion it was intentional. If you were to take that pitch as battery to a court of law you'd get rejected pretty well immediately, that option is not remotely on the table.

Is throwing at a guy good or reasonable reaction? Of course not, this guy is a jackass for making that point. However there's no reasonable way you are going to decipher which ones are intentional and which ones aren't moreso than they are already identified because the difference between hitting the inside black and hitting ribs is 12 inches.

49. 1k5v3L

Posted: April 26, 2008 at 05:26 PM (#2759746)

stay classy, levski.

Of course; comes with the territory.

[edit] I was referring to this: http://msn.foxsports.com/mlb/story/8036414/

How much has the game changed? Last week, Upton swung so hard at a pitch from Jeff Francis that when he missed he fell down. Next pitch, Upton hit a 428-foot home run. Hard to believe he got a pitch to hit instead of being hit by a pitch, and even harder to believe he obviously had no concern about being knocked down because he was ready to unload on the offering.

Maybe Troy Tulowitzki forgot to tell Jeff Francis that Justin Upton is no longer "only a .200 hitter" so it was now OK for Francis to hit him with a pitch.

Speaking of that, a true story: Shoewizard was at that game at Chase Field (in which Upton hit that home run off Francis); during the pitching change, Shoewizard walked down to the railing along the 3b line and yelled out: "Hey Tulowitzki! Who's .200 hitter now?"

50. 1k5v3L

Posted: April 26, 2008 at 05:36 PM (#2759755)

Apropos of nothing important, team HBP, 2008. The Dbacks, for all their unwarranted bravado, have been hit 9 times only.

51. Harold can be a fun sponge Posted: April 26, 2008 at 05:38 PM (#2759757)

[edit: misread user handle. thought it was keith law, now i realize that it wasn't worth responding to in the first place. meh.]

Levski, can you please change your handle so that it doesn't start with "Keith Law"; I have seen a number of people make this mistake and attribute your posts to Keith Law.

52. csi: bedford falls Posted: April 26, 2008 at 05:43 PM (#2759759)

A pro ballplayer got hit in the ribs by a pitch. This is a story? Some pitchers throw at guys just for looking at them funny. Nature of the game. I'm sure their mommies will patch up the owies. Like we need to police the millionaires. Ty Cobb's ghost is not amused.
Play ball.

53. North Side Chicago Expatriate Giants Fan Posted: April 26, 2008 at 05:44 PM (#2759761)

Levski, can you please change your handle so that it doesn't start with "Keith Law"; I have seen a number of people make this mistake and attribute your posts to Keith Law.

Levski, you could always be "Larry Bowa Approves of the Justin Upton."

54. calhounite Posted: April 26, 2008 at 05:44 PM (#2759762)

So, basically, you're saying that the pitchers gets to do whatever he wants, if he gets "pissed off"? Why even have written rules?

heck, it's not me sayin it. It's the game's 100 years sayin it. Unwritten rules get "written" to fill in gaps, and the basic problem is that the pitcher's objective of getting the hitter out coincides nicely with the inherent danger in the game of seriously maiming someone. So, no pissing off the guy with the bullet - unwritten but followed by all real pros. And batters have no business getting "comfortable". It's for their own good.

55. 1k5v3L

Posted: April 26, 2008 at 05:45 PM (#2759763)

thanks, 53. that's a great idea.

56. 1k5v3L

Posted: April 26, 2008 at 05:46 PM (#2759765)

I have seen a number of people make this mistake and attribute your posts to Keith Law.

That's understandable; we're both good looking, charming and funny as hell.

57. rfloh Posted: April 26, 2008 at 05:48 PM (#2759766)

heck, it's not me sayin it. It's the game's 100 years sayin it. Unwritten rules get "written" to fill in gaps, and the basic problem is that the pitcher's objective of getting the hitter out coincides nicely with the inherent danger in the game of seriously maiming someone. So, no pissing off the guy with the bullet - unwritten but followed by all real pros. And batters have no business getting "comfortable". It's for their own good.

So why not turn those unwritten rules into actual written rules? Why not just have a written rule that says don't piss off the pitchers?

58. Jack Sommers Posted: April 26, 2008 at 06:13 PM (#2759801)

For those that did not actually get to watch the game, I'm not sure Scanlan has this right.

First of all, Jackson was hit just above the elbow, or on the elbow, not in the ribs.

But more importantly, in the 4th inning, with runners on 2nd and 3rd and one out, and Justin "homerun" Huber at the plate, (who hit his first ever career homer vs. RJ in the previous start), RJ proceeded to throw ball 1, WAY inside, and then on the very next pitch, plunked his ass. No accident. Guaranteed.

I think Jackson getting hit by Ledezma was probably a combination of retaliation for Huber getting hit, and perhaps also the hard swing. Don't forget, first base was open, with 2 outs.

I don't think Ledezma did anything dirty here. I don't like this aspect of the game, to be sure, too many careers and lives have been ruined by the HBP, but it's a fact of life in baseball. You can't eliminate it.

Anyway, guess which team leads the NL so far in HBP by the pitcher?

Yeah...Arizona, with 12

59. Gambling Rent Czar Posted: April 26, 2008 at 06:45 PM (#2759811)

For those that did not actually get to watch the game, I'm not sure Scanlan has this right.

First of all, Jackson was hit just above the elbow, or on the elbow, not in the ribs.

I think Scanlan is more talking about the pitch being aimed at Conor Jacksons ribs.
Nobody aims for the elbow.

He was clearly hit on the elbow though. He took the full force of the pitch too, as the ball lazily dropped to the ground right at Jacksons feet.

60. bteribery Posted: April 26, 2008 at 06:51 PM (#2759818)

Remember the scene in Bull Durham where Crash tells Nuke to "Hit the Bull." I know its corny but the root of it makes total sense. You want the batter to be nervous and uncomfortable in the box. If you throw a few up and in and they happen to plunk someone even if its on purpose is totally their right to do so as pitchers. The batter doesnt own the plate. If he is crowding it move him off of it. If he wont budge buzz him. If he swings out of his shoes show him he better think twice about it. I always have loved this part of the game. Dont some of you get so irritated watching someone like Manny stand at the plate for 10 seconds after hitting one out. I know I do. I also know that I am begging that the next time he comes up he takes one in the ear hole. Jose Reyes wants to steal on me ok bang him in the leg slow him down a bit. You just have to realize that if you do these things that opens your teammates up to the same kind of retribution. So pick your spots and use them wisely. The brush back and the bean ball can be effective weapons if utilized properly.

61. Los Angeles Waterloo of Black Hawk Posted: April 26, 2008 at 07:11 PM (#2759834)

Dave Winfield took one of his ridiculous, massive, corkscrew swings, and hit a hard foul ball. (Ridiculous only because it seemed that he would have been a much better hitter, with just as much power, if he just took a normal swing. But maybe a normal swing was impossible for a 6'6" hitter with a large ego.)

Yeah, imagine how good Winfield would have been had he lived up to his potential.

62. Los Angeles Waterloo of Black Hawk Posted: April 26, 2008 at 07:15 PM (#2759842)

Anyway, I guess I must have been out of it for a few decades, because I hadn't ever heard of throwing at someone for swinging hard, either. I always thought it was the batter who looked ridiculous swinging so hard he fell down, not the pitcher. I'd rather throw a curve away and get the overswinger out on his front foot, I'd think.

I mean, I get the logic of backing guys off the plate, and support that (just keep it shoulder-level and below, please). And I guess I see how a big swing presents evidence that a guy needs to be backed off the plate, or might present evidence, in some cases. So I suppose to be consistent I have to say this is okay ... but something about it strikes me as bush league frat-boy nonsense.

63. Hal Chase Headley Lamarr Hoyt Wilhelm (ACE1242) Posted: April 26, 2008 at 07:27 PM (#2759856)

If any part of the batter is over the line and is struck by a pitched ball, it's just a ball, batter does not get 1B.

Count me in. This is an improvement over #41.

64. Hal Chase Headley Lamarr Hoyt Wilhelm (ACE1242) Posted: April 26, 2008 at 07:34 PM (#2759865)

See now I say if a hitter hits a ball back at the pitcher he should be ejected. It's not intentional but the batter needs to be more careful. I needed to edit this: ####### retarded.

Oh, don't be so hard on yourself. We get sillier straw men here all the time.

65. BeanoCook Posted: April 26, 2008 at 07:55 PM (#2759892)

Ledezma hits Jackson in the ribs with the next pitch.

Jackson was hit on top of his elbow, right on the bone. At full speed it appeared to be a pitch to the lower ribs, but in slow mo, it was clearly a shot to the elbow bone.

66. joker24 Posted: April 26, 2008 at 08:09 PM (#2759912)

Ummmm it isn't even a straw man argument seeing as how a batter hitting a pitcher with a line drive is analogous to an unintentional HBP and not a distortion of your terrible line of thinking (but nice try!).

I also like how you didn't even try to defend your equally idiotic proposal of moving the box back 3-6 inches.

67. rlc Posted: April 26, 2008 at 08:11 PM (#2759914)

I remember batters getting brushed back for "digging in"; they didn't even get a chance to use their entrenched position to make a wild swing.

But if Ledezma threw at Jackson to punish him for the wild swing, he's kind of missing the point of the thing (as did the announcer and many of the commenters here); a hitter who sets his feet firmly and commits all his weight shift early in order to get a big swing is much more of a threat to hit the ball hard. One way a pitcher can neutralize this is by forcing the hitter to keep his weight under control longer - by reminding him that the rules state a batter must make an effort to avoid being hit by a pitch. That umpires rarely enforce this rule any more is yet another way that the game has changed to favor the batter. That umpires will eject pitchers who try to brush back hitters is still another. I'm not saying these changes are wrong or right, but there's no denying that the game is different because of them.

68. Barry`s_Lazy_Boy Posted: April 26, 2008 at 08:50 PM (#2759927)

September 11, 1987, Mets and Cardinals are dueling down the stretch for the NL East, Ron Darling is working on a no-hitter when Vince Coleman lays down a bunt against him. Darling, trying to field the bunt, ends up landing on his thumb, tearing a ligament. Mets lose game, pitcher, pennant race.'

How does this safety factor apply only to no-hitters and not all bunts?

Darling faced 3 batters after Coleman.

http://retrosheet.org/boxesetc/1987/B09110NYN1987.htm

69. Chris Dial Posted: April 26, 2008 at 09:17 PM (#2759936)

too many careers and lives have been ruined by the HBP,

Really? What? five? And how many have been "ruined" by IHBPs? None?

70. North Side Chicago Expatriate Giants Fan Posted: April 26, 2008 at 10:14 PM (#2759955)

So why not turn those unwritten rules into actual written rules? Why not just have a written rule that says don't piss off the pitchers?

If you're going to write down these rules, then why not start with "Don't Feed the Livan?"

71. Roy Hobbs of WIFFLE Ball Posted: April 26, 2008 at 10:16 PM (#2759957)

This as good a thread as any to recommend Ross Bernstein's The Code.

He has another book of the same title about the NHL.

72. Crispix Attacksel Rios Posted: April 26, 2008 at 10:56 PM (#2759971)

I guess this is where I should say that The Pitch That Killed might be the best baseball book that I've read.

And about 3/4 of the way into it, in an aside, the author points out that multiple other hitters at different levels of baseball had been killed by pitches in the decade before the Mays/Chapman incident. And one was a former major league hitter, hit by a future major league pitcher, who reportedly threw five straight Southern League shutouts after the deadly incident.

I had no idea!

73. Boots Day Posted: April 26, 2008 at 10:59 PM (#2759972)

Darling faced 3 batters after Coleman.

From the New York Times, September 12, 1987:

Coleman's bunt had been the first Cardinal hit, a smart play by a team that would not quit. Its unexpected result was Darling leaving the game three batters later, with a thumb so swollen ''that he could not even grip the ball,'' according to the manager.

Darling was to be examined again this morning by Dr. Fiske Warren. Up to now, he is the only Met starting pitcher who has not been out of action for one reason or another.

Darling had torn ligaments in his thumb. He didn't pitch again that season.

74. Jack Sommers Posted: April 26, 2008 at 11:25 PM (#2759995)

too many careers and lives have been ruined by the HBP,

Really? What? five? And how many have been "ruined" by IHBPs? None?

I wasn't only talking about MLB.

75. Chris Dial Posted: April 26, 2008 at 11:26 PM (#2759998)

I wasn't only talking about MLB.
That doesn't help your point at all.

76. Crispix Attacksel Rios Posted: April 26, 2008 at 11:50 PM (#2760032)

I agree that batters should be encouraged to wear helmets and padding on sensitive parts of their bodies. That would largely eliminate the risks that have led to death and serious injury in the past.

77. Roy Hobbs of WIFFLE Ball Posted: April 26, 2008 at 11:53 PM (#2760039)

4. HBP = automatic ejection for the pitcher. Oh, it was accidental? Next time, be more careful. If it was deliberate, 15 days unpaid vacation will give the pitcher an opportunity to reflect on his philosophy.

And the manager has to provide every batter a nutritious snack in the 5th inning, preferably Uncrustables and 2% milk. Better yet, Nerf baseball!

78. Jack Sommers Posted: April 27, 2008 at 12:19 AM (#2760076)

I wasn't only talking about MLB.
That doesn't help your point at all.

relax Chris.....that isn't even the MAIN point of my post. Try re reading 58, and getting the MAIN GIST of what I'm saying instead of trying to pick out one minor point that you can contest and argue over. What do you want from me, a list of any professional ballplayer at any level who has ever had a career altering injury due to a HBP? Who cares? Again, you are missing the main point of the post. The point is that under baseball's unwritten rules, the D Backs had it coming....because they have been hitting people left and right, and RJ had just hit Huber. Certainly this MAIN POINT did not escape your attention, did it?

BTW, the sponsorship of Scanlan's bball=ref page is pretty funny.

79. Barry`s_Lazy_Boy Posted: April 27, 2008 at 01:16 AM (#2760147)

Darling had torn ligaments in his thumb. He didn't pitch again that season.

Again, I ask: How does this safety factor apply only to no-hitters and not all bunts?

80. Boots Day Posted: April 27, 2008 at 01:58 AM (#2760227)

Dude, you're taking it way too seriously.

81. Chris Dial Posted: April 27, 2008 at 02:13 AM (#2760240)

relax Chris

I am always relaxed, TYVM.

.....that isn't even the MAIN point of my post. Try re reading 58, and getting the MAIN GIST of what I'm saying instead of trying to pick out one minor point that you can contest and argue over. What do you want from me, a list of any professional ballplayer at any level who has ever had a career altering injury due to a HBP? Who cares?

You asserted it. And if you don't want to defend it, that's fine. I think the "a thrown baseball is a weapon<gasp>!" is overplayed, and an inherent risk of the game. A big chunk of evidence for that is that there are about three serious injuries since helmets were introduced in the 1950s. Hundreds of thousands of PAs with a negligble number of injurious HBPs means "too many careers" aren't ruined. Your throwaway line might mean nothing to you, but it does to me.

It turns out, I get to decide what's important to me - and so if you aren't ready to be behind your assertion, don't make it - because your throwaway line may be more than that to someone else.

Again, you are missing the main point of the post. The point is that under baseball's unwritten rules, the D Backs had it coming....because they have been hitting people left and right, and RJ had just hit Huber. Certainly this MAIN POINT did not escape your attention, did it?

But that's not particularly relevant to where the conversation had devolved. Mos there don't think the DBax "had it coming" because they think no player ever "has it coming" BECAUSE "too many careers and lives have been ruined by the HBP".

Sorry that you didn't like my noting your hyperbole.

82. Barry`s_Lazy_Boy Posted: April 27, 2008 at 02:38 AM (#2760258)

Dude, you're taking it way too seriously.

I'm asking a question. If its way too serious to discuss, then stop posting.

83. Barry`s_Lazy_Boy Posted: April 27, 2008 at 02:39 AM (#2760260)

Sammy Sosa's career was ended by a HBP, so don't forget that in your count.

84. Chris Dial Posted: April 27, 2008 at 02:55 AM (#2760273)

Again, I ask: How does this safety factor apply only to no-hitters and not all bunts?

While players can get hurt on any play, a pitcher with a no-hitter is likely to make an error trying to preserve it. SOmething like that.

85. Chris Dial Posted: April 27, 2008 at 02:55 AM (#2760275)

Sammy Sosa's career was ended by a HBP, so don't forget that in your count.

Really? That doesn't sound right.

86. Starring RMc as Bradley Scotchman Posted: April 27, 2008 at 02:56 AM (#2760276)

I like Bill James' idea: the first two HBPs in a season are free -- after that, each one costs you 0.5% of your salary.

That'll put an end to the "respect me, or I'll throw a hard object at your head at 100 mph" crap real quick.

87. Crispix Attacksel Rios Posted: April 27, 2008 at 03:03 AM (#2760282)

Well, Sosa was never great again after April 20, 2003. Although his June and July of that year were about as good as his April...and that happened when he was 34, and he'd only been great from ages 29 through 33, so a decline from age 33 to 34, and another one from 34 to 35, and another from 35 to 36, is not completely abnormal.

I don't remember any complaining from him or anyone else about the lingering effects of Salomon Torres's beanball. On the other hand, it happened around the time he went from Savior Of Baseball to scapegoat, so maybe the media didn't want to help us sympathize with him and make excuses for his decline.

88. Chris Dial Posted: April 27, 2008 at 03:06 AM (#2760285)

That'll put an end to the "respect me, or I'll throw a hard object at your head at 100 mph" crap real quick.

I think the respect is (as someone above pointed out): respect the difficulties and dangers of what's going on here - I don't want to hurt you, but I have to pitch inside, and doing so means I will lose some control in the direction of the hitter, so in order to keep you from getting hurt, please have a healthy respect to keep your balance and ability to dodge a pitch that moves that way."

When the hitters refuse to share the responsibility, they sometimes get reminded. It's not crap - it's balance.

Do a very very few pitchers enforce otherwise - sure - Greg Maddux, Pedro Martinez, Roger Clemens. These guys should have been banned from baseball in the midst of their third seasons. That would have been GREAT for the game (because they've ruined so many careers with their HBPs).

89. Crispix Attacksel Rios Posted: April 27, 2008 at 03:09 AM (#2760289)

When the hitters refuse to share the responsibility, they sometimes get reminded. It's not crap - it's balance.

Good point.

But how does this relate to hitters who have elevated "getting hit on the forearm" to a skill, like Jason Kendall and Chase Utley? What risk are they running? The forearm is a long way from the head.

90. Chris Dial Posted: April 27, 2008 at 03:10 AM (#2760290)

Sosa's career looks pretty appropriate to me. He hit pretty well the first two months of 2004 too.

91. Chris Dial Posted: April 27, 2008 at 03:13 AM (#2760293)

But how does this relate to hitters who have elevated "getting hit on the forearm" to a skill, like Jason Kendall and Chase Utley? What risk are they running? The forearm is a long way from the head.

I'm not sure what you mean - SOme in this thread want the pitcher that hits ~~Craig Biggio~~ Jason Kendall to be ejected and fined. Goodness - make a couple of starts against Kendall's team and you can get thrown out of the league.

They will likely claim they want umps to enforce that, but then you are pitting a "guess" agaisnt a factual occurence, and facts usually win. The batters box thing is hilarious - have you never seen teh back line of a batter's box get scrubbed as soon as the game's first batter steps in? Why wouldn't that happen to the front line? Of course it would.

92. Boots Day Posted: April 27, 2008 at 03:56 AM (#2760316)

I'm asking a question.

You're asking the wrong person. I've never said that a pitcher's more likely to get hurt fielding a bunt during a no-hitter; I'm just throwing out a high-profile example of when it happened.

I wouldn't have posted again at all except you seemed to doubt that Darling was hurt on the play.

93. Andere Richtingen

Posted: April 27, 2008 at 05:07 AM (#2760344)

The idea that Sammy Sosa's career was thrown into a tailspin from the Easter 2003 beaning is, well, a novel interpretation of what happened. It certainly doesn't jibe with what people thought at the time. There was definitely speculation that he was a bit skittish about inside pitches, and did go into something of a slump, but but that eventually went by the wayside. He had a fantastic June and July that year, and overall 2003 was a season where, like the season before, he simply didn't look quite as good as he did.

He did, in fact, walk away from the beaning, and although he was taken out of the game, he played the next day.

94. Voros McCracken of Pinkus Posted: April 27, 2008 at 05:20 AM (#2760349)

Annnnnd you read one sentence and missed the entire cruise ship liner on that one, so I'll slightly edit it for you and post the important part again this time in quotes:

And I disagree. It's doable, particularly if MLB were to co-operate. In this particular instance you could even call Scanlan in as a witness.

The end result of the potential for prosecution for intentional HBPs is a halt in its practice. As soon as a pitcher thinks it's even remotely possible he could wind up in lockup, he'll stop doing it.

The reason why it persists is not because pitchers have to be able to throw inside (throwing inside and intentionally hitting a batter are two vastly different things), it doesn't have to do with establishing respect, it has to do with the fact that we tolerate it. It has to do with the fact that pitchers know they can get away with it with very little punishment. It has to do with the fact, that for ever critic he earns, he'll get two who will defend his actions as "part of the game."

I'm deadly serious: we need to start prosecuting pitchers for intentional HBPs, and it will stop.

95. jwb Posted: April 27, 2008 at 05:45 AM (#2760359)

you cannot have batters standing in that batters box swinging as hard as they possibly can

You're right. If a pitcher has a problem, he shouldn't use the baseball, he should just charge the batter.

96. Dr. Vaux Posted: April 27, 2008 at 07:04 AM (#2760382)

How will you tell if it's intentional? But in any case, such a rule would completely eliminate the inside corner and increase offense by half a run per game or more. Probably more.

97. Dave da Busher Posted: April 27, 2008 at 03:34 PM (#2760431)

Cliff Johnson put it like this: "If you throw at my body, that's baseball. If you throw at my head, we go to war."

98. Astro Logical Sign Stealer Posted: April 27, 2008 at 04:14 PM (#2760447)

"If my head is part of my body, we're going to have borderline cases."

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Saturday, April 26, 2008

Ledezma plunks Conor Jackson for swinging too hard.

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