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Wednesday, June 30, 2021

Los Angeles Dodgers’ Trevor Bauer facing allegations of assault

Los Angeles Dodgers right-hander Trevor Bauer is facing allegations of assault by a woman stemming from previous sexual encounter.

The Pasadena, California police department said it is investigating the alleged assault, which it says occurred around the middle of May. The case could be turned over to the district attorney’s office as soon as Wednesday, a source told ESPN, at which point a decision would be made on whether it will move forward.

The woman was granted a domestic violence restraining order in L.A. County Superior Court against Bauer, according to her attorney, Marc Garelick, who alleged in a statement that his client “suffered severe physical and emotional pain” as a result of a “recent assault” from Bauer.

Garelick issued a statement Tuesday, writing, “Our goal is to keep Mr. Bauer from contacting our client in any way possible. We anticipate there will be criminal action against Mr. Bauer, and it is our hope law enforcement will take our client’s allegations and case seriously.”

Bauer’s attorney, Jon Fetterolf, released a lengthy statement to ESPN denying any wrongdoing on behalf of his client. In the statement, Fetterolf described the relationship as “consensual” and called the woman’s allegations “baseless” and “defamatory.”

RoyalsRetro (AG#1F) Posted: June 30, 2021 at 12:05 AM | 115 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
  Tags: sexual assault, trevor bauer

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   1. Hombre Brotani Posted: June 30, 2021 at 12:26 AM (#6026994)
My limited understanding of the law is that if a judge grants a domestic violence restraining order, and not a temporary restraining order, then there's some real weight behind the accusations. I'll need an actual lawyer to confirm, though. Anyone?
   2. The Yankee Clapper Posted: June 30, 2021 at 01:41 AM (#6026998)
From the article, it’s not clear whether the restraining order was issued ex parte - based just on the woman’s representations. In any event, there seems to be considerable dispute as to the facts. Bauer’s agent, from TFA:
"Mr. Bauer had a brief and wholly consensual sexual relationship initiated by [the woman] beginning in April 2021," Fetterolf said in the statement. "We have messages that show [the woman] repeatedly asking for 'rough' sexual encounters involving requests to be 'choked out' and slapped in the face. In both of their encounters, [the woman] drove from San Diego to Mr. Bauer's residence in Pasadena, Calif., where she went on to dictate what she wanted from him sexually and he did what was asked."

According to Fetterolf, Bauer and the woman had two encounters, and she continued to message him with "friendly and flirtatious banter." But after their second encounter, Fetterolf said, the woman shared photos of herself and indicated to Bauer that she had "sought medical care for a concussion." Bauer responded with "concern and confusion," Fetterolf said, and the woman was "neither angry nor accusatory."

"Mr. Bauer and [the woman] have not corresponded in over a month and have not seen each other in over six weeks," Fetterolf said in his statement. "Her basis for filing a protection order is nonexistent, fraudulent and deliberately omits key facts, information and her own relevant communications. Any allegations that the pair's encounters were not 100% consensual are baseless, defamatory and will be refuted to the fullest extent of the law."
Presumably, the DA’s office will have more to go on than what we now have available from the news.
   3. Starring Bradley Scotchman as RMc Posted: June 30, 2021 at 07:58 AM (#6027003)
We have messages that show [the woman] repeatedly asking for 'rough' sexual encounters involving requests to be 'choked out' and slapped in the face.

Maybe...if you're a famous/rich guy, it's better to avoid women like this? (Or even if you're not rich and famous...?)
   4. Ron J Posted: June 30, 2021 at 08:33 AM (#6027004)
#3 Worked out ... OK(?) for Tiger Woods. I guess. (And yeah, he was the one looking for the rough stuff)

But so easy to imagine signals getting crossed.
   5. RoyalsRetro (AG#1F) Posted: June 30, 2021 at 08:41 AM (#6027005)
Nm
   6. The Duke Posted: June 30, 2021 at 08:47 AM (#6027007)
The rough sex defense also known as the fifty shades defense is now commonly used by defendants to justify their actions. There have been a number of cases of this across the commonwealth countries in recent years leading to calls of reform in many of these countries. We’ll see how this works out for Bauer. He apparently also had a history of getting his followers on social media to go after women on social media he doesn’t like.

I was very surprised when the Dodgers signed him - not good for the brand IMO.
   7. JRVJ Posted: June 30, 2021 at 12:16 PM (#6027022)
2, this agent's statement, at a minimum, shows Bauer to be an absolutely reckless person in his private dealings.

Phrased differently, there is no world in which a multi-million dollar major league pitcher should be undertaking casual "rough" sexual activities with a person he seems to only know in passing.

I'm all for believing women in regards situations such as these, but my point is more along the lines of Bauer being completely reckless for putting himself in a situation such as this.

   8. Jeff Francoeur's OPS Posted: June 30, 2021 at 12:18 PM (#6027023)
Best case scenario: Bauer exhibited extremely poor judgment engaging in this type of conduct with someone he didn't really know.
   9. RoyalsRetro (AG#1F) Posted: June 30, 2021 at 05:36 PM (#6027079)
More details here (The Athletic). Warning: Graphic descriptions.
   10. The Duke Posted: June 30, 2021 at 05:50 PM (#6027083)
Bauer is likely toast. The police have been involved since May - who knows what he’s said while they were listening in. Seems odd that they haven’t filed charges though. There’s no way there aren’t others and that’s what will deal his fate if they come forward. Who knew Marcell Ozuna wouldn’t have the worst domestic violence charge this year.
   11. Captain Joe Bivens, Elderly Northeastern Jew Posted: June 30, 2021 at 05:55 PM (#6027087)
Discretion doesn't seem to be part of Bauer's makeup.
   12. Random Transaction Generator Posted: June 30, 2021 at 06:14 PM (#6027090)
According to the woman’s declaration attached to the request and obtained by The Athletic, she suffered injuries as a result of the second encounter, including two black eyes, a bloodied swollen lip, significant bruising and scratching to one side of her face. In the woman’s declaration, signed under penalty of perjury of California state laws, she said that her medical notes state that she had “significant head and facial trauma” and that there were signs of basilar skull fracture.


That's not "rough sex".
   13. Jeff Francoeur's OPS Posted: June 30, 2021 at 06:15 PM (#6027092)
Jesus Christ.
   14. The Duke Posted: June 30, 2021 at 10:35 PM (#6027142)
How can other players sit in that clubhouse with him ? Doing so basically says that’s more or less ok as the facts don’t seem to be in much dispute
   15. The Yankee Clapper Posted: June 30, 2021 at 11:25 PM (#6027149)
… as the facts don’t seem to be in much dispute.
Rather early to say that. The DA hasn’t filed any charges, and the restraining order was an ex parte proceeding. Her story might hold up - in which case Bauer is in serious trouble - but I don’t see how one can make a definitive judgment based on what’s currently publicly available.
   16. Howie Menckel Posted: June 30, 2021 at 11:32 PM (#6027150)
these are professional baseball players/professional athletes. if you think that his version of events is going to offend most of them - then I don't know what to say.

and it's not surprising that at this point, they believe their teammate's version of events.
   17. My name is Votto, and I love to get Moppo Posted: July 01, 2021 at 08:33 AM (#6027176)
Yikes. I've defended Bauer's iconoclasm before, but this goes well beyond kink. Nobody consents to fractured bones and being choked out.
   18. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: July 01, 2021 at 08:53 AM (#6027178)
More details here (The Athletic). Warning: Graphic descriptions.

Based on what's alleged, he's a degenerate that deserves a long jail sentence. Even is she consented to it, choking someone into unconsciousness and having sex with them is evil

The problem is the two assaults separated by weeks. If the assaults and injuries happened as described how was there a second incident at all? She says in the first incident he choked her into unconsciousness and anally raped her while unconscious. Yet she continued to communicate with him and set up a second date. Bauer's lawyers are going to have a field day with that.
   19. Steve Parris, Je t'aime Posted: July 01, 2021 at 08:54 AM (#6027179)
and it's not surprising that at this point, they believe their teammate's version of events.

Bauer has been there all of 3 months and came with all of his well known baggage and aloofness. It wouldn’t surprise me at all if things were a little awkward in the Dodgers clubhouse now.
   20. jacksone (AKA It's OK...) Posted: July 01, 2021 at 09:58 AM (#6027187)
Yikes. I've defended Bauer's iconoclasm before, but this goes well beyond kink. Nobody consents to fractured bones and being choked out.


It's not my cup of tea, but yes, some people do consent to (and get off on) being choked out.
   21. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: July 01, 2021 at 10:16 AM (#6027191)
It's not my cup of tea, but yes, some people do consent to (and get off on) being choked out.

Even if they do, it doesn't mean that anyone has to oblige them.
   22. pikepredator Posted: July 01, 2021 at 10:46 AM (#6027199)
Even is she consented to it, choking someone into unconsciousness and having sex with them is evil


This is what I'm struggling with. I have a lot of trouble imagining myself choking anyone into unconscionsness in any circumstance - outside of interrupting an attack on my daughter and totally flying into a blind, uncontrollable rage.

The idea that it would somehow be erotic for a man and I could also have sex with the person I'm coking out . . . that man must have major malfunctions. It's far different from sexual preference or gender identity or anything in a very wide range of (IMO) acceptable consensual sexual activities.

And for a woman to want to be treated that way . . . also makes me wonder about long-buried childhood trauma, or something.

I am quite liberal and have a wide range of tolerance for things I don't personal consider tasteful, but I have trouble seeing either of these people as mentally healthy.
   23. Never Give an Inge (Dave) Posted: July 01, 2021 at 10:47 AM (#6027200)
How can other players sit in that clubhouse with him ? Doing so basically says that’s more or less ok as the facts don’t seem to be in much dispute

They're professionals who have spent their entire lives learning to tune out distractions and focus on doing their job on the field. I don't think that continuing to show up for work under these circumstances should be seen as approval of his (alleged) actions.

I also agree with what TYC says in #15. This certainly looks very bad for Bauer, and unlike some other cases where it's he said/she said about events that happened many years ago, it seems like there's a fair amount of evidence that will eventually come out here. So I can see teammates just blocking out the noise and waiting for more information. (Not a bad idea, for those who are speculating about various things in the comments here.)
   24. JRVJ Posted: July 01, 2021 at 10:59 AM (#6027201)
17, assuming that the woman's injuries did stem from the second incident AND they happened how she says they happened.

18, that's what makes this terribly confusing. Both narratives establish that Bauer is a very twisted man. That doesn't mean that the injuries that this woman suffered were caused how she says they were caused (I know nothing of what the laws says regarding rough sexual encounters, but one would presume that how the injuries were caused would be pretty determinative. Nobody can consent to being beaten in the head to the point of developing fractures.... but if the injuries were the result of an accident while undertaking some other actions, then that could change the narrative).

In any case, the above is the lawyer in me writing. At this point, I'm 95% sure that Bauer's actions were criminal, though exactly what exactly happened and what those crimes were, remains TBD.
   25. Der-K's emotional investment is way up Posted: July 01, 2021 at 11:50 AM (#6027209)
I both am not inclined to kink shame and also, on a core level, don't understand activity in this arena that trades on domination or violence. YMMV.
All of which is distinct from judging what Bauer is accused of, which certainly sounds like criminal behavior.
-------
How can other players sit in that clubhouse with him?
To echo another commenter, professional athletes are, as a rule, tremendous at compartmentalizing.
   26. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: July 01, 2021 at 12:33 PM (#6027220)
I both am not inclined to kink shame

I think it's OK to shame activities that physically injure the other person. That's not kink-shaming, that's assault-shaming. I'm cool with assault-shaming.
   27. RoyalsRetro (AG#1F) Posted: July 01, 2021 at 04:17 PM (#6027268)
@FabianArdaya
Dave Roberts said Trevor Bauer is with the team in DC. They plan on letting him start Sunday, and Roberts said their direction was to not do anything until they get guidance from MLB.

“It’s out of our hands,” Roberts said.


I mean, I kinda feel like deciding who plays is in the manager's hands?
   28. Jose Is An Absurd Balladeer Posted: July 01, 2021 at 04:35 PM (#6027270)
I mean, I kinda feel like deciding who plays is in the manager's hands?


Is that true? If Bauer isn't suspended then the Dodgers have to use him. Technically yeah Roberts can bench him but there are rules in the CBA that govern how this stuff is handled and I suspect Bauer and the MLBPA would bring a grievance and likely win it. IANAL YMMV etc....I mean one game? Yeah they can probably sell that "he's got a lot going on needs a mental break" (Sox did that with Manny one year at the deadline) but not indefinitely.
   29. . . . . . . Posted: July 01, 2021 at 05:02 PM (#6027274)
It's far different from sexual preference or gender identity or anything in a very wide range of (IMO) acceptable consensual sexual activities.


whoa whoa whoa. A domination fetish to this degree is really freaking weird, don't get me wrong. But it is no less weird than gender dysphoria and moving heaven and earth to have a doctor remove your dong.

Sex and gender is almost inherently weird for humans, and the full range of weirdness includes a lot of bizarre things. Bauer's #### is unacceptable, but not because of the degree of weirdness. It isn't acceptable (assuming true) because the weirdness isn't self-directed, it involving harming someone else. But if we're ranking stuff on the weirdness scale, all of this falls under "wow, that is not what gets my motor running".
   30. RoyalsRetro (AG#1F) Posted: July 01, 2021 at 05:23 PM (#6027276)
If Bauer isn't suspended then the Dodgers have to use him


Do they though?
   31. Kiko Sakata Posted: July 01, 2021 at 05:24 PM (#6027277)
If Bauer isn't suspended then the Dodgers have to use him. Technically yeah Roberts can bench him but there are rules in the CBA that govern how this stuff is handled and I suspect Bauer and the MLBPA would bring a grievance and likely win it.


But what would they win? The Dodgers' end of the contract says they'll pay Trevor Bauer $40 million. If they suspended him with pay, aren't they following their end of the bargain? If they suspended him without pay pending the investigation and it clears him, isn't the solution just to give him his back pay? Surely the Dodgers' contract with Bauer doesn't specify that he must pitch every X days or that he must pitch on all national holidays.
   32. bunyon Posted: July 01, 2021 at 05:47 PM (#6027280)
Probably depends on incentives. And it isn't like they'd be benching him on Sunday. This is a long way from being (legally) over. If they decide not to pitch him pending an investigation, he's likely out for the year.

Which is probably the right thing to do. And definitely is if he's guilty. Just don't pretend the question is only Sunday.

(I forget, comparing to the Ozuna case, what's the difference? That the battery occurred during sex?)
   33. pikepredator Posted: July 01, 2021 at 05:49 PM (#6027281)
lots of periods: the insertion of the (seemingly) judgmental term "Weird" is entirely of your own doing. If we're going to have this conversation you need to explain how you're using "Weird", because it feels like you're not responding to what I was saying.

I see no comparison between someone being trans and someone capable of doing what Bauer apparently enjoys.
   34. Tom Goes to the Ballpark Posted: July 01, 2021 at 06:27 PM (#6027285)
MLB can suspend him for 7 days without the approval of the union. It seems likely that they will wait to do that until he is actually scheduled to pitch.
   35. Ron J Posted: July 01, 2021 at 07:01 PM (#6027289)
#34 Doesn't work like that. He gets to appeal so there's no point in trying to schedule a suspension for maximum team impact.
   36. Hombre Brotani Posted: July 01, 2021 at 07:11 PM (#6027290)
A domination fetish to this degree is really freaking weird, don't get me wrong. But it is no less weird than gender dysphoria and moving heaven and earth to have a doctor remove your dong.
I see no comparison between someone being trans and someone capable of doing what Bauer apparently enjoys.
This. Gender identity and sexual orientations have nothing to do with sexual fetishes.

In my younger days, I was on the periphery of a groups that engaged in plenty of stuff most people might find "weird," including impact play of varying degrees. The person ceding control has to trust that their top will look out for their well-being, because they're helpless to do so themselves, and literally no one's kink was to receive a skull fracture. It seems to me, from what I know about Bauer, that he's the kind of person who is entirely focused his own gratification, and isn't really into looking out for the well-being of the other person. I don't think Bauer sought to abuse someone, I just think that he's so selfish and self-absorbed that he wouldn't stop doing a thing until he was happy.

Terrible dominants aren't uncommon. They see someone else's submission as a free pass to do whatever they want, then they feel victimized when they go too far because they didn't get to do whatever they wanted. Bauer appears to be that kind of guy.
   37. The Yankee Clapper Posted: July 01, 2021 at 07:19 PM (#6027294)
I forget, comparing to the Ozuna case, what's the difference?
Ozuna was arrested, Bauer has not been (to date). That’s a big difference. If Bauer is arrested, his situation probably changes, too. I’m not saying it’s likely (or unlikely, either), but it’s possible the DA will find that the evidence doesn’t support the woman’s claims.

All we have are news reports reports on the woman’s story. We have no idea of her credibility. Presumably, the DA’s Office will have questioned her and examined the texts and other evidence before taking, or declining, any action.
   38. Ron J Posted: July 01, 2021 at 08:18 PM (#6027300)
#31 Indeed. The only items that would be at issue are performance bonuses. And it's hard to win grievances on those.
   39. The Yankee Clapper Posted: July 01, 2021 at 08:25 PM (#6027301)
Some additional info, including the text messages after the 1st encounter, in this updated story. Weird stuff.
   40. David Nieporent (now, with children) Posted: July 01, 2021 at 08:55 PM (#6027310)
2, this agent's statement, at a minimum, shows Bauer to be an absolutely reckless person in his private dealings.

Phrased differently, there is no world in which a multi-million dollar major league pitcher should be undertaking casual "rough" sexual activities with a person he seems to only know in passing.

I'm all for believing women in regards situations such as these, but my point is more along the lines of Bauer being completely reckless for putting himself in a situation such as this.
Yes; as I said over in expatland, wouldn't any reasonably prudent rich celebrity worry about it being a setup?
   41. baxter Posted: July 01, 2021 at 09:36 PM (#6027324)
If he hits a home run off Bauer, what will Josh Donaldson have to say about this?
   42. Rally Posted: July 01, 2021 at 10:32 PM (#6027340)
“ Dave Roberts said Trevor Bauer is with the team in DC. They plan on letting him start Sunday, and Roberts said their direction was to not do anything until they get guidance from MLB.”

Will be interesting to see what the DC fans do to taunt him. Somebody’s got to have a gimp suit.
   43. jacksone (AKA It's OK...) Posted: July 01, 2021 at 11:08 PM (#6027347)
#36 - great post.
   44. base ball chick Posted: July 02, 2021 at 12:19 AM (#6027357)
hello boyz

i have watched a lot of bauer's videos. couple things i noticed - in one of the pandemic dinner ones, he mentioned that when he was a kid, none of the other kids liked him. after watching him for a while, i understood why. he's some weird combo of completely insensitive to other people and at the same time being puppy-like friendly. actually he's like a puppy that's wagging his tail and growling at the same time. it's why he was, i bet, The Weird Kid who never met an argument he didn't like. his favorite ballplayer ever is barry bonds and actually, he's kind of like him with personality - the abrasiveness/aloofness, but without the charm/heart/sexiness that is his other side

as for females - he said right out in one of the videos i saw that he only had timer for casual relationships and had no intention of having any sort of emotional type relation to females as long as he was a pro ballplayer. and when he said it i just thought - i got no idea how he is ever gonna have an actual girlfriend because somehow there is no, how can i put it - emotional connection to other people. they are baseball workout buddies/ team buddies or bidness. you never get the sense that he cares about them as people outside of how can they be of use to him. he calls parents by their first names - disrespectful. trevor bauer is only about one thing - trevor bauer/his Brand

one other thing - i started watching him and his videos because he chose a female agent, who he obviously was pals with before she started her own agency. AFTER he signed the contract with the dodgers that she negotiated, he made a video saying how great she was because he had to pay her so much less than a regular agent. repeated it like 3 times. and he said it with this kind of glee/agression that made me decide to stop watching his videos.

so i am not surprised that he is into rough sex/dominating women

ima wait to see what the police investigation shows. they will have ALL the texts and dates and can put it together and see


   45. Tom Goes to the Ballpark Posted: July 02, 2021 at 12:46 AM (#6027360)
#34 Doesn't work like that. He gets to appeal so there's no point in trying to schedule a suspension for maximum team impact.
This is incorrect. MLB can place a player on a paid 7 day administrative leave. There is no appeal process for an administrative leave since it is paid. A player can appeal any subsequent penalty that is assessed since those suspensions are without pay.
   46. Cooper Nielson Posted: July 02, 2021 at 01:09 AM (#6027362)
It seems to me, from what I know about Bauer, that he's the kind of person who is entirely focused his own gratification, and isn't really into looking out for the well-being of the other person. I don't think Bauer sought to abuse someone, I just think that he's so selfish and self-absorbed that he wouldn't stop doing a thing until he was happy.

I think Bauer's a jerk and I won't defend any of this, but one thing that stuck out to me from the Athletic story was that he actually DID seem to care about this woman after the "incidents." Very possibly he was just trying to make sure he didn't get in legal trouble, but this suggests a hint of genuine remorse and concern:

"As part of the request to the court, the woman also provided text messages and screenshots of voicemails she said Bauer sent to her inquiring about her well being and checking in with her to see what he could do; in one message, Bauer offers to deliver groceries to her."

"Bauer had been, according to the woman, messaging her “nonstop” since the second incident occurred, asking her if she was all right"

"“At the end of the phone call, at the police’s instructions, I said, ‘Thank you for acknowledging what you did to me,'” the woman’s account said. “Trevor acknowledged it and asked how we could move forward and asked if he could still reach out.”"
   47. . . . . . . Posted: July 02, 2021 at 08:53 AM (#6027373)
This. Gender identity and sexual orientations have nothing to do with sexual fetishes.


This is a laughable thing to say conclusively. Of course that have something to do with sexual fetishes. It's all on the spectrum of human psychosexual abstraction.
   48. Jeff Francoeur's OPS Posted: July 02, 2021 at 09:16 AM (#6027374)
The Rosenthal/Ghiroli/Strang social justice squad at The Athletic have the knives out for Bauer, so maybe Manfred will notice before Sunday.
   49. Never Give an Inge (Dave) Posted: July 02, 2021 at 09:43 AM (#6027375)
I am not a lawyer and this is very far from anything I have personal experience with, but I would think the legal case here will come down to questions of consent. If she consented (in writing) to being slapped, and then he punched her in the head hard enough to give her a concussion / possible skull fracture, that looks pretty bad for him, regardless of how much concern he expressed afterwards and regardless of what we think of such “kinks”. That seems to be what happened from the articles linked in this thread, but more information may come out that either adds to or contradicts that story.

Yes; as I said over in expatland, wouldn't any reasonably prudent rich celebrity worry about it being a setup?


I don’t know, a woman who tells you in writing what she wants you to do her seems relatively low risk in a lot of ways, provided you don’t go beyond what she asked for. Or at least, I could see someone having that logic.
   50. Barry`s_Lazy_Boy Posted: July 02, 2021 at 09:52 AM (#6027376)
Bauer continues to prove what an excellent human being he is.
   51. Jose Is An Absurd Balladeer Posted: July 02, 2021 at 09:54 AM (#6027377)
I am not a lawyer and this is very far from anything I have personal experience with, but I would think the legal case here will come down to questions of consent. If she consented (in writing) to being slapped, and then he punched her in the head hard enough to give her a concussion / possible skull fracture, that looks pretty bad for him, regardless of how much concern he expressed afterwards and regardless of what we think of such “kinks”. That seems to be what happened from the articles linked in this thread, but more information may come out that either adds to or contradicts that story.


Yeah. No lawyer here either but to me this looks like a case where;

a. Bauer acted like a scum bag
b. Bauer deserves to be and is eventually punished harshly by MLB
c. Bauer does not suffer any legal consequences

I would think that those texts are going to set up "reasonable doubt" pretty strongly. Particularly for someone like Bauer who ain't exactly going to have an overworked public defender trying his case. I've been on a jury twice. One of them is a bit applicable here. It was an assault charge (guy beat the crap out of his neighbor) and in the jury room we agreed that the guy definitely did it but that the prosecutor hadn't proved the case.
   52. bunyon Posted: July 02, 2021 at 09:58 AM (#6027378)
I forget, comparing to the Ozuna case, what's the difference?

Ozuna was arrested, Bauer has not been (to date).


Right. Thanks. That is a big difference.
   53. The Duke Posted: July 02, 2021 at 10:01 AM (#6027379)
I’m always curious when people say “ women should be believed “. Is there some empirical evidence that women tell the truth more than men either in these situations or any other ? If you said for example that “all Asians should be believed”, people would think you are daft. I assume this is a throw away comment to signal your are on the right side of the public issue. But, I’m curious, do a lot of people simply believe women lie less/tell the truth more? If yes, based on what? Or is the sentiment more “we” think that women have never been believed and we should upgrade to 50% now?



   54. Never Give an Inge (Dave) Posted: July 02, 2021 at 10:05 AM (#6027380)
Yeah. No lawyer here either but to me this looks like a case where;

a. Bauer acted like a scum bag
b. Bauer deserves to be and is eventually punished harshly by MLB
c. Bauer does not suffer any legal consequences


Since you phrased this as an agreement with me, I want to make clear that I don’t necessarily agree with (c). At least, not based on the facts currently available. Like I said, it sounds like he went beyond what was consented to. Even his lawyer’s statements don’t seem to dispute that — at least, none of the articles contain such disputation at this point.
   55. Jose Is An Absurd Balladeer Posted: July 02, 2021 at 10:20 AM (#6027381)
I’m always curious when people say “ women should be believed “. Is there some empirical evidence that women tell the truth more than men either in these situations or any other ? If you said for example that “all Asians should be believed”, people would think you are daft. I assume this is a throw away comment to signal your are on the right side of the public issue. But, I’m curious, do a lot of people simply believe women lie less/tell the truth more? If yes, based on what? Or is the sentiment more “we” think that women have never been believed and we should upgrade to 50% now?


It's not a matter of women being fundamentally more honest than men but the studies that have shown that in these situations there is extremely little evidence of women lying about these things. The idea that women are making up these stories for financial gain or to harm someone they dislike is strongly refuted.
   56. Ken Griffey's Grotesquely Swollen Jaw Posted: July 02, 2021 at 10:21 AM (#6027382)
53, nobody thinks women are inherently more truthful than men. We just live in a world where women are put through the wringer by people like you for speaking up so if they do, they're probably not lying.
   57. Ken Griffey's Grotesquely Swollen Jaw Posted: July 02, 2021 at 10:25 AM (#6027383)
to 55's point, the facts show that a male is more likely to be sexually assaulted than to be falsely accused of sexual assault. This information is out there and readily available, so your "I'm pretending to be confused about this basic thing" act is pretty tiresome.
   58. Eddo Posted: July 02, 2021 at 10:26 AM (#6027384)
Or is the sentiment more “we” think that women have never been believed and we should upgrade to 50% now?

It's this. "Women should be believed" is specifically in the context of when they share stories of being sexually assaulted, harassed, or discriminated against by me, in part because they either haven't been believed or have been intimidated or pressured into staying silent historically.
   59. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: July 02, 2021 at 10:31 AM (#6027385)
It's not a matter of women being fundamentally more honest than men but the studies that have shown that in these situations there is extremely little evidence of women lying about these things. The idea that women are making up these stories for financial gain or to harm someone they dislike is strongly refuted.

Agreed, but you can't judge a criminal case by averages. Even if 95% of sexual assault allegation are true, you still need to adjudicate each case on its individual merits, and each defendant still gets the presumption of innocence. You do have the oddball cases, like "mattress girl" at Columbia.

I believe Bauer is guilty as hell, and a despicable human being, but it may be really hard to prove. Hell even if she 100% consented to the violence, any one who would choke a women into unconsciousness, and then have sex with her while unconscious, is despicable.
   60. bunyon Posted: July 02, 2021 at 11:00 AM (#6027386)
Yeah, I don't think anyone (well, few, at any rate) are saying people should go to jail when the only evidence is she said/he said. But they are saying police should believe reports of rape as willingly as they believe reports of theft, attacks, etc. The evidence is pretty clear they don't.

Also, supervisors and colleagues should believe reports of harassment. And, again, they (we) tend not to. There is very much a societal tendency to write off such claims from women and to exaggerate the likelihood of intentional false claims.

But this is all well trod territory and people bringing up "but what does it mean" are doing so mostly to obfuscate and excuse.
   61. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: July 02, 2021 at 11:20 AM (#6027391)
Yeah, I don't think anyone (well, few, at any rate) are saying people should go to jail when the only evidence is she said/he said. But they are saying police should believe reports of rape as willingly as they believe reports of theft, attacks, etc. The evidence is pretty clear they don't.

Absolutely.
   62. Jeff Francoeur's OPS Posted: July 02, 2021 at 01:04 PM (#6027403)
Bauer should have passed a constitutional voting bill. Manfred would have sidelined him yesterday.
   63. Tin Angel Posted: July 02, 2021 at 01:24 PM (#6027406)
Roberts benched Puig for showing up late to a workout before a game...but this, he can't really do anything about.
   64. Jose Is An Absurd Balladeer Posted: July 02, 2021 at 01:49 PM (#6027425)
Bauer is now on administrative leave.
   65. Never Give an Inge (Dave) Posted: July 02, 2021 at 01:59 PM (#6027430)

Kind of amazing that UCLA announced they were inducting Bauer into their HOF just hours before the news of the allegations broke. Talk about bad timing...
   66. Mike A Posted: July 02, 2021 at 02:03 PM (#6027431)
The article states Bauer admitted on a call recorded by police that he repeatedly punched her while she was unconscious.

If they've got that, it's pretty hard to argue for Bauer.
   67. Barry`s_Lazy_Boy Posted: July 02, 2021 at 02:24 PM (#6027447)
But he had consent to repeatedly punch her while unconscious. You can't judge someone's kink!! prudes.

   68. Lowry Seasoning Salt Posted: July 02, 2021 at 02:40 PM (#6027450)
25. Der-K's emotional investment is way up Posted: July 01, 2021 at 11:50 AM (#6027209)

How can other players sit in that clubhouse with him?
To echo another commenter, professional athletes are, as a rule, tremendous at compartmentalizing.


Not saying anything about Der-K making this comment, our Inge who said something similar—heck, anyone here—but it's funny how we never hear this about gay athletes.
   69. Walks Clog Up the Bases Posted: July 02, 2021 at 03:32 PM (#6027464)
The article states Bauer admitted on a call recorded by police that he repeatedly punched her while she was unconscious.

If they've got that, it's pretty hard to argue for Bauer.


Don't worry, some here are up to the challenge.
   70. Red Menace Posted: July 02, 2021 at 04:06 PM (#6027471)
There’s a long history in the arts of female characters being portrayed as duplicitous. In contrast to men who are often shown as straightforward almost to the point of being simple. Weaker men who can’t rely on their strength often have to resort to deception, which is usually read as feminine. This leads to the oft recurring gay coded villain.

Not that there’s truth to any of this. But culturally these ideas are deeply embedded.
   71. Steve Sparks Flying Everywhere Posted: July 02, 2021 at 04:24 PM (#6027475)
The article states Bauer admitted on a call recorded by police that he repeatedly punched her while she was unconscious.


But is that admissible evidence at trial? I thought California was a two-party consent state in terms of recording phone calls. Plus you run into issues of the victim acting as the agent of the state if the police directed her to make and record the call.
   72. Der-K's emotional investment is way up Posted: July 02, 2021 at 08:57 PM (#6027500)
26/snapper: i am also good with assault shaming.
68/lowry: you are 100% correct, sir :(
   73. Mike A Posted: July 02, 2021 at 09:35 PM (#6027505)
But is that admissible evidence at trial? I thought California was a two-party consent state in terms of recording phone calls.
I'm not a lawyer - and I would certainly defer to one - but it appears there is an exception when investigating serious crimes, in this case domestic/felony violence. According to California penal code section 633.5:

Sections 631, 632, 632.5, 632.6, and 632.7 do not prohibit one party to a confidential communication from recording the communication for the purpose of obtaining evidence reasonably believed to relate to the commission by another party to the communication of the crime of extortion, kidnapping, bribery, any felony involving violence against the person, including, but not limited to, human trafficking...or domestic violence. Sections 631, 632, 632.5, 632.6, and 632.7 do not render any evidence so obtained inadmissible in a prosecution for extortion, kidnapping, bribery, any felony involving violence against the person, including, but not limited to, human trafficking...or domestic violence as defined in Section 13700, or any crime in connection therewith.

So if he did admit to hitting her while she was unconscious, it does appear admissible. Police today said the investigation is 'bigger than we thought' so I'm guessing there's going to be more coming.

   74. David Nieporent (now, with children) Posted: July 03, 2021 at 02:49 PM (#6027540)
to 55's point, the facts show that a male is more likely to be sexually assaulted than to be falsely accused of sexual assault. This information is out there and readily available, so your "I'm pretending to be confused about this basic thing" act is pretty tiresome.
This is wrong. The claims about low incidences of false claims of rape are generally motivated (though sometimes just ignorance). From the perspective of an outsider (rather than the accuser/accused) there are three categories of rape accusations:

1) Truthful.
2) False.
3) Unknown.

Claims that false allegations are incredibly rare are based on either ignoring category 3 or treating them as truthful. Neither is valid. (The link you provide further skews the data by only counting the subset of false allegations which are so overwhelmingly obviously false that the accuser is prosecuted. Which rarely happens even when the falsity is clear. Look at one blatant example: Crystal Mangum wasn't prosecuted.) And I would add that it only looks at formal accusations of rape, not informal ones.)


EDIT: I suppose I ought to note that I was addressing a slightly different question — what percentage of rape accusations are false — than the framing above — what percent of men have been falsely accused of rape. But the underlying point — that false accusations are much more common than ideology is willing to admit — is supported either way.
   75. David Nieporent (now, with children) Posted: July 03, 2021 at 02:54 PM (#6027541)
It's this. "Women should be believed" is specifically in the context of when they share stories of being sexually assaulted, harassed, or discriminated against by me, in part because they either haven't been believed or have been intimidated or pressured into staying silent historically.
Friendly advice: if one's position is "women should be taken seriously," then one should say "women should be taken seriously," not "women should be believed." Just like if one's position is that policing should be reformed, then one should say, "policing should be reformed," not "defund the police." Using ordinary English words for shock value, and then when people act shocked, telling them that the words don't really carry their ordinary meaning is bad and ineffective.
   76. David Nieporent (now, with children) Posted: July 03, 2021 at 02:57 PM (#6027542)
But is that admissible evidence at trial? I thought California was a two-party consent state in terms of recording phone calls. Plus you run into issues of the victim acting as the agent of the state if the police directed her to make and record the call.
You have it backwards. Precisely because she was acting as an agent of the police, it's likely to be admissible. California is a two-party state, but there is an exception for law enforcement. (Plus, what Mike A said above.) The "acting as an agent of the state" issue typically comes into play in 4th amendment contexts: a private citizen does not need a warrant to conduct a search, but if he or she is acting as a state agent, then he does.)
   77. Captain Joe Bivens, Elderly Northeastern Jew Posted: July 03, 2021 at 03:20 PM (#6027546)
I wasted the 14th pick in a draft on him.
   78. DonP stopped lurking Posted: July 03, 2021 at 06:57 PM (#6027565)
Just like if one's position is that policing should be reformed, then one should say, "policing should be reformed," not "defund the police." Using ordinary English words for shock value, and then when people act shocked, telling them that the words don't really carry their ordinary meaning is bad and ineffective.


Your statement is correct. However, the majority of people saying "Defund the police" mean "Defund the police". Police reform has been tried for ages and it does not work.
   79. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: July 03, 2021 at 07:06 PM (#6027567)
Your statement is correct. However, the majority of people saying "Defund the police" mean "Defund the police". Police reform has been tried for ages and it does not work.

And the vast, vast majority of people don't want to do that. Only 18% overall support defunding the police, only 28% of blacks, and 34% of Dems. Less policing means more crime; we've seen that amply demonstrated across America cities this past year.
   80. Joyful Calculus Instructor Posted: July 03, 2021 at 07:48 PM (#6027570)
Yes and crime rates, including homicide rates, have increased in pretty much every major US city with the exception of Baltimore since the "defund the police" movement started. In Seattle last year, for a while the mayor and police allowed a small area of the city to be an experimental commune called CHAZ with no police supervision. The result was an unmitigated disaster with a murder rate of 1216 per 100,000, over 50 times the rate of Chicago. CHAZ seems like a pretty demonstration that an unpoliced society devolves into chaos.

With that said, I do think that many of the people who say they want to defund the police aren't saying that as a genuine belief but rather as a form of social signaling to demonstrate which side they're on.
   81. baxter Posted: July 03, 2021 at 08:06 PM (#6027572)
76. Yes. The procedure of having the police record someone talking to a suspect is known as a "pretext call." I thought there was one used in the case of William French Anderson, the USC scientist convicted of abuse. It is a relatively common procedure in sex abuse investigations.

79. Your first clause apparently refers to a USA Today Poll, in which 43% of respondents were in FAVOR of redirecting funding from policing to social programs. As to your second assertion, association is not causation.

Please consider taking a look at this study "Relationship between Police Killings, City Spending, and Violent Crime", at https://towardsdatascience.com/police-killings-city-spending-and-violent-crime-61754788482b, with one of its conclusions being: "Police spending has a positive association with violent crime and police killings while the inverse is true for education spending"

See if you can understand the study and have anything constructive to say about it. Or, you may have some criticisms of it; but either way maybe reading it will expand the way you view the world. After reviewing the study and its methodology, you can tell me why you think it is wrong. At that point, use some reasoning other than along the lines of "everyone knows spending more money on policing reduces crime."

thank you and be well.
   82. baxter Posted: July 03, 2021 at 08:38 PM (#6027577)
Edit myself please the Anderson case involved a recording of an in person conversation; memory is going, but it was 14 years ago. One can find many examples of pretext phone calls used in California, nonetheless.
   83. David Nieporent (now, with children) Posted: July 03, 2021 at 10:31 PM (#6027595)
Yes and crime rates, including homicide rates, have increased in pretty much every major US city with the exception of Baltimore since the "defund the police" movement started.
You imply causation, but the "defund the police movement" has not actually led to any police being defunded, and the "every major US city" includes cities led by conservative governments in red states.
   84. Never Give an Inge (Dave) Posted: July 03, 2021 at 10:49 PM (#6027599)
If you constantly have to explain that your slogan doesn’t actually mean what it says, it’s a bad slogan.

   85. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: July 04, 2021 at 11:10 AM (#6027617)
You imply causation, but the "defund the police movement" has not actually led to any police being defunded, and the "every major US city" includes cities led by conservative governments in red states.

Lots of cities have cut police budgets. NYC cut theirs by almost $1B. There has also be a rapid decline in the number of police as retirements and resignations have soared. 5,300 NYPD officers quit or retired in 2020 (up 75%). Overall manpower is down by about 2,500.

Police are also making far fewer stops and arrests, b/c they know the politicians don't support them, and with "bail reform" the perp is out the same day unless he seriously injures someone. A guy tried to throw a undercover cop onto the subway tracks, in an apparent anti-Asian hate crime, and he was released the same day b/c he failed to hurt him badly enough.

All-in-all there's been a massive de-policing in NYC, and the results are exactly what you'd expect. Shooting in broad daylight on main streets. Hate crimes soaring. Quality of life in the toilet; often literally with the streets turned into toilets.
   86. DonP stopped lurking Posted: July 04, 2021 at 11:14 AM (#6027618)
"Defund the police" is about as clear a slogan as you can get. There is a large number of people calling for exactly that. That doesn't imply it's a majority of people, Snapper.
   87. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: July 04, 2021 at 12:05 PM (#6027622)
"Defund the police" is about as clear a slogan as you can get. There is a large number of people calling for exactly that. That doesn't imply it's a majority of people, Snapper.

Yes, there are 15% of people (on the bat-#### crazy left) who believe in defunding the police. Just like there are 15% of people (on the batshit crazy right) who believe that voting machines were programmed to add millions of votes for Biden. We should ignore both groups' opinions.

Meanwhile, among black people (who bear the brunt of crime in many cities) as many want more police presence in their neighborhoods as want less. The large majority want the same amount.

black-americans-police-retain-local-presence

"Defund the police" is a position largely held by bougie white leftists who live in ultra-safe neighborhoods or gated communities, and professional agitators.
   88. Lassus Posted: July 04, 2021 at 10:17 PM (#6027661)
"Defund the police" is a position largely held by bougie white leftists who live in ultra-safe neighborhoods or gated communities, and professional agitators.

Sure


Also, this:
as many want more police presence in their neighborhoods as want less.
makes
largely held by bougie white leftists
simply dishonest.
   89. DonP stopped lurking Posted: July 05, 2021 at 01:02 AM (#6027663)
simply dishonest

Exactly, thank you. Angela Davis and Bree Newsome are two examples of scholar activists that have been advocating for defunding the police for a long time, and they are not bougie white leftists. There are many others. There are quite a few books written on the subject. They are easy to find if someone actually would like to learn the what, why, and how of the proposals to defund police departments.

I find it much more interesting to discuss the merits (pros AND cons) of ideas to improve society than to decide how I feel about an idea based on statistics from superficial surveys of people that don't know much about the subject, or, frankly, just made up statistics.

And, no, what was going on in Seattle was absolutely nothing like what advocates of defunding the police are proposing.
   90. the Hugh Jorgan returns Posted: July 05, 2021 at 01:48 AM (#6027666)
Yes, there are 15% of people (on the bat-#### crazy left) ...... Just like there are 15% of people (on the batshit crazy right) We should ignore both groups' opinions.


Well that works in small countries like here in Aus. or Norway or something, but in the USA, 15% is like 46 million people and of course combined, your defined fringe represents over 100 million people. Unfortunately, that's hard to ignore.
   91. Lassus Posted: July 05, 2021 at 07:31 AM (#6027668)
If you constantly have to explain that your slogan doesn’t actually mean what it says, it’s a bad slogan.

This is not at all unfair, yet a slogan has its own required parameters. What's a better one?
   92. Ron J Posted: July 05, 2021 at 08:50 AM (#6027672)
#91 The issue really is that "Defund the Police" isn't a mainstream position. Nor are most prominent mainstream Democrats the ones bringing up "Defund the Police" (And these are the ones who make the, "when they say Defund the Police they really mean ...") -- they're simply required to address it.

Indeed I'd argue that the provocative nature of the slogan is the point. That the intent is to bring a discussion of police funding (and all that this implies) to the forefront. To force people to publicly address the issue.

And yes, some want to tear it all down and start over -- believing that incremental improvement is impossible.

So the point made by Dave and DMN misses the central point. This wasn't something the Democrats came up with or believe is a winning program or a clever slogan. But they can't make it go away so they're trying their best to fit this in. So they're doing their best to rebrand it. (And yeah, not working and can't work)

If they came up with a more on point slogan (perhaps "demilitarize the police"), "defund the police" wouldn't go any place.
   93. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: July 05, 2021 at 09:37 AM (#6027673)
Exactly, thank you. Angela Davis and Bree Newsome

Seriously? Angela Davis? Professional agitator is far too kind for her. She was a member of the CPUSA, when it was a wholey owned front-organization of the Soviet Union. She received an honoray degree from Moscow State at the invitation of the Central Commitee, and the Lenin Prize. 10:1 she was a paid Soviet Agent; the alternative speaks even more poorly about her as a human being.

If she's your movement's intellectual heavy weight, you can see why people laugh at you, and think you're intentionally trying to destroy the country.
   94. Never Give an Inge (Dave) Posted: July 05, 2021 at 10:55 AM (#6027677)
This is not at all unfair, yet a slogan has its own required parameters. What's a better one?

I’m not sure. I don’t know that you needed a pithy slogan. After George Floyd and some of the police reaction to the protests, I think there was a strong critical mass behind police reform — not universal by any means, but enough to get some things done. So maybe we needed thoughtful suggestions about how to harness that momentum, more than a slogan that would devolve into semantic bickering. To their credit, I saw many people trying to make such proposals, and some of them had tangible results.
   95. Lassus Posted: July 05, 2021 at 10:57 AM (#6027678)
If she's your movement's intellectual heavy weight, you can see why people laugh at you, and think you're intentionally trying to destroy the country.

Because we're certainly better off having the social and civic altruism of people like Josh Hawley and Marjorie Taylor Green actually running the country. Congrats, it's working.
   96. Lassus Posted: July 05, 2021 at 10:58 AM (#6027679)
I’m not sure. I don’t know that you needed a pithy slogan.

Also not an unfair premise. But when you have masses of people protesting, it's hard to quell what naturally occurs. A protest slogan is a bit like a folktale. No real authors, infinite tellers.
   97. Ron J Posted: July 05, 2021 at 11:15 AM (#6027682)
I see Snapper (#93) is being his typical dishonest self. Plus ca change ...
   98. Never Give an Inge (Dave) Posted: July 05, 2021 at 11:53 AM (#6027688)

Also not an unfair premise. But when you have masses of people protesting, it's hard to quell what naturally occurs. A protest slogan is a bit like a folktale. No real authors, infinite tellers.


Yeah, my issue is more with some of the political debates. Like, if a person supports many of the same reforms, then criticizing them because they won't explicitly embrace the "Defund the police" slogan is counterproductive. I don't think that happens much anymore, though.
   99. DonP stopped lurking Posted: July 05, 2021 at 01:11 PM (#6027699)
If she's your movement's intellectual heavy weight, you can see why people laugh at you, and think you're intentionally trying to destroy the country.


What an absolutely asinine comment. Not relevant at all to what's being discussed. Angla Davis is a professor emeritus at the largest university system in the United States, so she can certainly be described as a scholar. And she is certainly not "bougie white" as you claimed the people asking to defund the police are. I haven't even stated how I feel about defunding the police, and now she's my movement's intellectual heavyweight? Keep yelling at the clouds and arguing with some imaginary responses, troll.
   100. Walks Clog Up the Bases Posted: July 05, 2021 at 03:47 PM (#6027711)
I'm sorry, are we really pretending that the issue here is clunky slogan phrasing? We're talking about the same people who are intentionally misusing "Critical Race Theory" as a boogeyman catch-all to describe any sort of education about this country's history with racism and slavery.
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