But the Howard Terminal proposal has been stalled by money and concerns about affordable housing in the area.

If affordable housing is a concern, you won't have any teams in the Bay Area.

Hey a cardboard box is affordable.

If they move to Las Vegas do I stay as a fan (I live in Southern California) or change to another team? I have two young boys so it would be fun to share a favorite team and I don't think they deserve the pain of being an A's fan.

If they move to Las Vegas do I stay as a fan (I live in Southern California) or change to another team?

Oof, I dunno. Are there any local teams in SoCal worth cheering for? Or individual players they might like?

One turns 3 in March, the other is 8 months so they have no interests so far.

Kids? Interested in baseball?

VEGA'S, baby!

Sacramento makes more sense than Vegas

Sacramento makes more sense than Vegas

Vastly more sense.

I'm an East Coaster so I have no idea what makes Sacramento a better alternative than Vegas; can you fill me in?

It seems like the A's owner just wants to make a real estate deal that makes money / raises the value of the team and will immediately (probably after a few years or whatever Manfred mandates) sell.

Does either make sense? I'd think Vegas would be overextended with another major league team, particularly one as seemingly dependent on local revenue as a baseball team. Sacramento, too, might not be able to do baseball and basketball - though I'd think it might retain some of its northern California fan base?

Either way - they need a new park and new ownership more than a new city.

I wonder if A's ownership has a Google timeline that indicates where they've threatened to move. They could get a periodic activity report ("you threatened to move to five different cities last month") with lots of cool colored vectors, and even some maps covering the longer term history. And of course the algorithm could send them outdated ads from other cities that could be targets ("have you considered moving to Washington DC?").

I think that the issue with Vegas is its geographic isolation, and the metro area not being populous enough to overcome that. Sacramento has more population centers within a reasonable drive.


The NFL could put a team in Fargo and it would sell out eight times a year. Baseball doesn't work that way.

Sacramento already has a chunk of A's fans. The team once estimated that about 5% of fans in the seats at the Coliseum were from Sac. Considering what a PITA that drive is, it shows some real commitment.

The River Cats lead all AAA teams in attendance most years, which underscores the fan base's strength. LV by contrast has the Florida problem, where a huge portion of attendance is for the visiting club. While hard to measure, a baseball team needs "cultural strength," to coin a phrase. When going to games or following on TV/radio becomes a widespread habit, a common activity, that helps a team weather losing seasons.

Sacramento is a slightly larger MSA, but its ability to draw from the Bay Area helps it punch above its weight vs. Vegas, which isn't proximate to anywhere. Sac also has a higher per capita income.

But Der-K is right: new park & owners are the real need. While I disagree with a city ever giving a team a nickel, I could hold my nose & accept it for a decent owner. Fisher aint that.

The Las Vegas metro area has a population of ~ 2.3 million people, with 30-40 million visitors annually. That’s more than I expected, but the major local industry is another form of entertainment that tends to keep people on-site for their stay, so I have considerable doubt that Las Vegas would be viable without a lot of sweetners.

Vegas seems to have no trouble filling an arena for hockey.

I have said elsewhere how the record for Oakland supporting the A's is tepid, at best. Bad ownership hasn't helped, but the Bay Area itself and Oakland in particular, is a challenging place for a sports team, especially a sport team that represents something as old-school as baseball. The political climate in Oakland is difficult right now, with a brand-new mayor that has expressed lukewarm enthuasiasm for the A's project, and they just fired their police chief (again). Last time I checked there seemed to be more public sentiment for re-purposing the Coliseum complex for the local soccer club than for the A's development. It feels like this ship has sailed, though as many have pointed out as well, the end result doesn't make sense. This media market SHOULD be able to support two baseball teams, but MLB (with it's territorial rights for the Giants precluding a move of the A's to the South Bay) has shot itself in the foot, methinks.

Vegas seems to have no trouble filling an arena for hockey.

That arena has a capacity of 18,000 and hockey plays half the numbers of games as baseball. Fans don't have to suffer the 110F heat, which they would for baseball without a dome.

(Anyone know if Vegas plan includes a dome?)

(Anyone know if Vegas plan includes a dome?)

With the A's, I don't believe discussions have reached that level of planning. But when Las Vegas courted the Diamondbacks a few years ago, the city's proposal included a 32,000-seat stadium (plus 4,000 standing-room only) with a retractable roof.

At 40th, Las Vegas would be the smallest media market in baseball. Sacramento, at #20 is the 2nd-biggest media market with no team, behind Orlando at #17.

The largest media market with no team is Miami

With the A's, I don't believe discussions have reached that level of planning. But when Las Vegas courted the Diamondbacks a few years ago, the city's proposal included a 32,000-seat stadium (plus 4,000 standing-room only) with a retractable roof.

Yes I don't think As discussions include anything beyond an office they opened in Vegas for lobbying government. There have been rumors of potential sites but several have been shot down or repurposed or blocked by power players. There's speculation the new governor is more open to an open-ended check than the last governor but no idea if legislature is on board. Seems like casinos haven't been supportive; they think football brings people to gamble but baseball either has no impact or keeps people away too late to then go and gamble.

Sadly MLB seems almost as determined to get to Vegas as the NHL is with Arizona (now plays there in a college stadium with about 5k seats and losing money hand over fist). It is insane.

Sacramento makes a TON of sense. A tiny bit north of SF/Oakland, I figure it'd get more of a fan base than Vegas ever could. 81 games is double the NHL's with a need for nearly double the attendance in order to have a shot at contending (money wise) due to their small TV base vs other teams if they are in Vegas.

I love sacramento and the Kings games are so much more fun the Warriors right now. Still I do have some Sac doubts.

I have never understood why Fremont wasn’t more of an option. Close to San Jose but still in alameda county so shouldn’t be covered under baseball’s rule, near the lower bridges, still on the Bart line to Oakland area. I don’t know the area except to drive through and pull over so I’m sure there’s good reason. For me in north Berkeley the Jack London area will be cool but I would still go plenty to Fremont.

That’s more than I expected, but the major local industry is another form of entertainment that tends to keep people on-site for their stay, so I have considerable doubt that Las Vegas would be viable without a lot of sweetners.

Yes, but I know folks who take Vegas weekends that include taking in the hockey game. The downside is that these are northerns looking for a break from the winter and a trip to warmer city. This works for baseball with a dome. Not otherwise.

Sacramento gets bloody hot in the summertime, but for night games it's fine. Vegas, though, even night games need a dome.

The largest media market with no team is Miami

You misspelled "Detroit".

At 40th, Las Vegas would be the smallest media market in baseball.

Yes, but for how long? The population, now estimated at just under $2.9M, has doubled in the past 20 years.

Yes, but for how long? The population, now estimated at just under 2.9M, has doubled in the past 20 years.

I don't think they have the water to double again in 20 years.

I never understood why Fremont wasn't more of an option

The Fremont option was explored extensively and abandoned in 2009.

2009 Article: A's abandone Fremont Ballpark village plans

Typically the A's owners have wanted to build a brand-new ballpark as part of much larger development, partly I guess to fund the ballpark, but also just to make themselves $$. They are and have been real estate developers, who have been running the A's it seems primarily as a lure/justification hoped for a large real estate deal.

The population, now estimated at just under $2.9M, has doubled in the past 20 years.

There's no water left in Nevada. At some point people are going to stop moving there.

EDIT: Coke to DL. The truth of the matter is that there already isn't enough water for Vegas as is.

Mark Davis hasn’t spoken at length on the Raiders in a while, but according to NFL insider Jason Cole, the Raiders’ owner is becoming frustrated with the fan support in Las Vegas.

It’s becoming a trend in Las Vegas that opposing fans are flocking to the stadium in droves and it was estimated that around 75 percent of fans at Allegiant Stadium last week were there to support the 49ers.

“[There is] belief among many that Raiders owner Mark Davis is growing increasingly impatient in his effort to rebuild the legacy of the team his Hall of Fame father built into a champion,” Cole reported this week for Outkick. “Moreover, Davis’ angst is growing. Allegiant Stadium continues to be more of a friendly home for visiting fans than the great home field it was for years in Oakland.”

“Mark is embarrassed,” a former Raiders executive told Cole. “He was pissed last year when the Chiefs and Bears brought so many fans to town. Now it’s happening every week.”

So it's not even Vegas area residents buying tickets to the Raiders - it's out of towners making a three or four day junket to gamble and go see the team from their town play the Raiders. I seriously doubt baseball fans, in the heat of summer in Vegas, are anywhere near as likely to make that kind of trip and after a year or so of novelty, I would expect attendance to drop precipitously.

Sacramento has always made sense for the A's - either that or build a new ball park on the current site. Having lived in Oakland for nearly 40 years before moving away seven years ago, the politics in Oakland were always too complicated to get all the approvals needed for Howard Terminal. Sacramento has always supported the River Cats, they used to an A's affiliate, and it's a short enough drive that East Bay folks can go, especially if you live on the Walnut Creek side of the East Bay hills. And in the end, it's also more about John Fisher and ownership - A's fans rightfully despise him and his mouthpieces like team president Dave Kaval, who one year is spouting "Rooted in Oakland" and then the next is cozying up to Vegas officials.

I live in Canada now, and even though this team is unrecognizable from what it was when I moved away, I still follow them as much as I can. I hope they stay in the Bay Area. I'm headed back in June for a visit and my daughter's wedding and if they're in town, I'm definitely going to a game or two. And if none of the local possibilities work, hopefully Fisher sells the team. Hell, I'd even take the team going to Nashville and Dave Stewart. I think that's better than Fisher and Vegas for the future of the franchise.

I'm not a football fan, but I can see how that would be a huge problem in a sport where your team plays one game on the road in Vegas per year at most. If I'm a Packers fan and I see a November road date in Vegas, you better believe I'm on the cheapest flight from Milwaukee that weekend, gambling or no.

The NFL could put a team in Fargo and it would sell out eight times a year.

Also, they basically have. Green Bay isn't any closer to civilization than Fargo.

If Mark Davis is surprised by that, he’s even dumber than his haircut

This dissing of Vegas as a tourist destination is the same thing they told Bugsy Siegel and looked wot happened

Yeah, he got murdered. I'm not following in those footsteps!

I don't think they have the water to double again in 20 years.

The population isn't slated to double again in 20 years but it's not leveling off either.

“Mark is embarrassed,” a former Raiders executive told Cole. “He was pissed last year when the Chiefs and Bears brought so many fans to town. Now it’s happening every week.”

Cuing up nelson_muntz_ha_ha.mp3 right now.

Like Mama says, be careful what you ask for; you might get it.