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Wednesday, October 21, 2020

Manfred likes larger playoff, runner in extras

“I like the idea of, and I’m choosing my words carefully here, an expanded playoff format,” Manfred said. “I don’t think we would do 16 like we did this year. I think we do have to be cognizant of making sure that we preserve the importance of our regular season. But I think something beyond the 10 that we were at would be a good change.”

With the added runner rule, the longest of 68 games of 10 innings or longer were a pair of 13-inning contests, according to the Elias Sports Bureau.

“I think the players like it,” Manfred said. “I think it’s really good from a safety and health perspective that keeps us from putting players in situations where they’re out there too long or in positions they’re not used to playing.”

Union head Tony Clark said it was too soon to commit to changes for 2021. The sport’s labor contract runs through 2021, and the union’s agreement is needed to alter the 2021 structure.

RoyalsRetro (AG#1F) Posted: October 21, 2020 at 08:52 AM | 47 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
  Tags: rob manfred

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   1. Starring Bradley Scotchman as RMc Posted: October 21, 2020 at 09:04 AM (#5984210)
“I think the players like (the added runner rule),” Manfred said. “I think it’s really good from a safety and health perspective that keeps us from putting players in situations where they’re out there too long or in positions they’re not used to playing.”

I'm sure the players would like it if they could collect their paychecks without having to play at all. Because, you know, safety and health.
   2. BDC Posted: October 21, 2020 at 09:15 AM (#5984212)
95% of baseball injuries (wouldn't you say?) come from the baseball hitting somebody or from collisions on the basepaths. The zombie-runner rule does nothing to reduce the former and actually increases the chance of the latter.
   3. SoSH U at work Posted: October 21, 2020 at 09:17 AM (#5984213)
“I think the players like (the added runner rule),” Manfred said. “I think it’s really good from a safety and health perspective that keeps us from putting players in situations where they’re out there too long or in positions they’re not used to playing.”


Here's an idea, Bobby. Convince them if they don't spend so much ####### time dicking around between pitches, they also won't be out there too long. And this would happen every damn game, not just the occasional extra inning affair.
   4. Starring Bradley Scotchman as RMc Posted: October 21, 2020 at 09:18 AM (#5984215)
Re 3: As I've said before, 90% of baseball's problems could be alleviated by following two principles:

(1) Get in the damn box.
(2) Throw the damn ball.
   5. RoyalsRetro (AG#1F) Posted: October 21, 2020 at 09:21 AM (#5984216)
Seriously though, they've been studying pace of play for YEARS now, when are they actually going to do something about it? Not this stupid baserunner in extras crap.
   6. JJ1986 Posted: October 21, 2020 at 09:28 AM (#5984220)
When the rule was introduced in the minor leagues, didn't Manfred say that he didn't plan to bring it to MLB? A whole year and a half ago.
   7. Buck Coats Posted: October 21, 2020 at 09:34 AM (#5984221)
And yet they've had the pitch clock in the minors for years now, but no hint of that in the majors
   8. Never Give an Inge (Dave) Posted: October 21, 2020 at 09:50 AM (#5984223)

95% of baseball injuries (wouldn't you say?) come from the baseball hitting somebody or from collisions on the basepaths. The zombie-runner rule does nothing to reduce the former and actually increases the chance of the latter.

Most baseball injuries seem to be a result of normal pitching usage. You might be right about non-pitching injuries.
   9. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: October 21, 2020 at 09:54 AM (#5984224)
Expanded playoffs could work, but you need to redo the divisions. If you go back to two divisions per league, you can have two divisions winner and four WC per league. Division winners get a bye, and the four WC play three-game series to advance. Then you have 4 teams per league play five-game series to get to the LCS.

MLB gets more teams and their stupid extra round, but winning the division really matters.
   10. SoSH U at work Posted: October 21, 2020 at 09:56 AM (#5984225)
There's a slight problem with your plan snapper. After the wild card round, you're left with five teams in each league.

   11. KronicFatigue Posted: October 21, 2020 at 10:09 AM (#5984227)
I'm loving the lack of off-days in the playoff format. It's more reflective of the regular season in terms of needing to have depth, especially w/r/t pitching. I could maybe tolerate expanded playoff teams if there was an extreme advantage given to the teams that finished with the better records. All 5 games being at home, in the first round, for example. I would have loved to see this year's first round be a best of 5, but with 7 inning double headers for games 1-4. Best of 3 was way too short.
   12. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: October 21, 2020 at 10:29 AM (#5984232)
There's a slight problem with your plan snapper. After the wild card round, you're left with five teams in each league.

Don't know if this was before my edit. I said 6 WC, but I meant 6 playoff teams per league.
   13. catomi01 Posted: October 21, 2020 at 10:30 AM (#5984234)
About the only Rob Manfred has succeeded in so far is something I didn't think was possible - making me miss Bud Selig.
   14. Moses Taylor hashes out the rumpus Posted: October 21, 2020 at 10:32 AM (#5984236)
Of course he likes these dumb changes, the dumb ####.
   15. What did Billy Ripken have against ElRoy Face? Posted: October 21, 2020 at 10:44 AM (#5984239)
Seriously though, they've been studying pace of play for YEARS now, when are they actually going to do something about it?
Just as soon as (a) the union stops being obstructionist, or (b) Manfred grows a pair. And (c) they're no longer able to monetize the dicking around by selling in-game ads.

So...
   16. bunyon Posted: October 21, 2020 at 10:49 AM (#5984242)
I'm loving the lack of off-days in the playoff format. It's more reflective of the regular season in terms of needing to have depth, especially w/r/t pitching. I could maybe tolerate expanded playoff teams if there was an extreme advantage given to the teams that finished with the better records. All 5 games being at home, in the first round, for example. I would have loved to see this year's first round be a best of 5, but with 7 inning double headers for games 1-4. Best of 3 was way too short.

The highest seeds should never play less than a 5 game series.

I'd like to see something that dramatically makes winning a division important. Go back to two divisions. Each division winner gets a bye.

Day after regular season ends: A4 plays B3 on A2s field, B4 plays A3 on B2s field. Winner of one game playoff plays the second place team in second place team's park. Second place team has to win one game to advance. The winner of that series flies immediately to the division winner for a seven game series, no off days, all at division winner's park.

So:

Reg season ends. One game 3v4. Game 1 2v3/4. Game 2 2v3/4. Game 1 LDS.

Division champ gets three day rest. Enough to set up pitching but not so much they go completely cold. Third and fourth place teams have to run a gauntlet but, hey, it's baseball so they will every now and then. Non-division winners arrive at division winner worn. MLB gets a whole slew of elimination games in a row. 16 teams in the playoffs. LCS and WS go as usual with off days and alternating sites.

And, as far as ghost runners, call it a tie. Yes, I've posted this before. I guess I shouldn't mind, I can just turn the game off and go to bed.
   17. BDC Posted: October 21, 2020 at 11:05 AM (#5984246)
Most baseball injuries seem to be a result of normal pitching usage. You might be right about non-pitching injuries

Definitely, yes – should have phrased that differently. Most pitching injuries seem to be chronic things; I guess I was talking acute.

So staffs throwing slightly fewer innings over the course of a season … I doubt that will affect injury rates, either.
   18. BDC Posted: October 21, 2020 at 11:08 AM (#5984248)
I'm loving the lack of off-days in the playoff format. It's more reflective of the regular season in terms of needing to have depth, especially w/r/t pitching

This being BBTF, of course somebody (me) will disagree :)

Shorter postseasons with a fair number of off-days show off the great pitchers, and I prefer that. I am not that interested in comparing fifth starters and eighth guys out of the bullpen. But I can certainly see where someone might have the opposite taste.
   19. bunyon Posted: October 21, 2020 at 11:24 AM (#5984255)
If they really did that, BDC, I'd be all for it. But the great starters no longer go all that deep or are, frankly, all that important. I wish they were.
   20. bunyon Posted: October 21, 2020 at 11:49 AM (#5984257)
Game 6, 1975 World Series.

George Foster singles in zombie runner to give Reds lead in the top of the tenth. Reds win series 4-2.

Game 6, 1991 World Series.

Terry Pendleton singles in zombie runner to give Braves lead in the top of the tenth. Braves win series 4-2.

   21. RoyalsRetro (AG#1F) Posted: October 21, 2020 at 11:51 AM (#5984258)

Expanded playoffs could work, but you need to redo the divisions. If you go back to two divisions per league, you can have two divisions winner and four WC per league. Division winners get a bye, and the four WC play three-game series to advance. Then you have 4 teams per league play five-game series to get to the LCS.


Why even have divisions at that point?
   22. KronicFatigue Posted: October 21, 2020 at 11:59 AM (#5984260)
#18

As a Yankee fan, even I was a bit grossed out by their added advantage in 2009 b/c of all the off days. I might be misremembering, but I feel like they got to choose which schedule they wanted and went with one that had an off day after game #1.

According to b-ref, they had off days between games 1 and 2. They were able to use their best two relievers (Mariano and Hughes) in all 3 games and Joba (who was a SP by that point) in relief for all 3 games. They had a big lead in game 1, but still went with all their best relievers knowing they had a day off.

Last night, I was nervous when Kershaw came out for his last inning, but knew it had to be done to rest the overworked pen. We wouldn't have gotten that if they had a day off.

   23. RoyalsRetro (AG#1F) Posted: October 21, 2020 at 12:00 PM (#5984261)

Game 6, 1975 World Series.

George Foster singles in zombie runner to give Reds lead in the top of the tenth. Reds win series 4-2.

Game 6, 1991 World Series.

Terry Pendleton singles in zombie runner to give Braves lead in the top of the tenth. Braves win series 4-2.


2003 ALCS, David Ortiz doubles in the 10th off Mariano Rivera to drive in zombie runner, Red Sox win the pennant.
   24. The Gary DiSarcina Fan Club (JAHV) Posted: October 21, 2020 at 12:09 PM (#5984263)
Zombie runners are fine for Little League, but I want no part of them in the majors. Same thing with ties. Ties are terrible. Make your starting pitchers pitch longer so that you have relievers remaining for a potentially protracted extra inning game. If that means pitchers have to throw slower, so be it.

I'd be fine with Snapper's playoff plan if we had to keep expanded playoffs, although however you split up the divisions, it's going to make it worse for teams in the Western Division. You're also going to have uneven divisions, unless you add a team to each league (which they should do anyway).
   25. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: October 21, 2020 at 12:17 PM (#5984265)
Why even have divisions at that point?

So the four winners don't have to play a ridiculous three-game series. East-West divisions with unbalanced schedules, are better for travel and rivalries.
   26. Barry`s_Lazy_Boy Posted: October 21, 2020 at 01:14 PM (#5984282)
Someone suggested a compromise of a zombie baserunner starting in the 12th inning. I like that idea.
   27. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: October 21, 2020 at 01:29 PM (#5984289)
Someone suggested a compromise of a zombie baserunner starting in the 12th inning. I like that idea.

Only if the runner is required to shamble like a zombie, rather than run.
   28. Ziggy: social distancing since 1980 Posted: October 21, 2020 at 02:19 PM (#5984304)
Make your starting pitchers pitch longer so that you have relievers remaining for a potentially protracted extra inning game.


Or be willing to forego the platoon advantage once in a while so as to preserve some of your relievers. Or keep a swingman available to eat up innings if necessary. Or have tomorrow's starter pitch in extras and push his start back a day. Or just take your worst reliever and pitch him until he dies - if you've got a long string of anonymous relievers (with more in AAA), don't bother to worry about one of them.
   29. The Yankee Clapper Posted: October 21, 2020 at 02:41 PM (#5984312)
About the only Rob Manfred has succeeded in so far is something I didn't think was possible - making me miss Bud Selig.
Will no one rid us of this troublesome Commissioner?
   30. What did Billy Ripken have against ElRoy Face? Posted: October 21, 2020 at 03:10 PM (#5984322)
Only if the runner is required to shamble like a zombie, rather than run.
And then eat a couple of the other players' brains.
   31. winnipegwhip Posted: October 21, 2020 at 03:13 PM (#5984323)
I thought of something the other day which might seem radical but would bring in some managerial strategy:

- Instead of the 3 man minimum rule change the minimum to 5 batters. But once the reliever gets an out (or two) he is allowed to be removed. This would put the onus on the manager to make sure he is bringing in a reliever that can get someone out. If that reliever has a bad outing then the team is hurt moreso. It would mean the manager would want to stretch his starter out longer as he could be pulled after the next batter at any point. If the manager chooses the reliever and he does his job by getting an out or two than the team is rewarded.
   32. winnipegwhip Posted: October 21, 2020 at 03:16 PM (#5984325)
2003 ALCS, David Ortiz doubles in the 10th off Mariano Rivera to drive in zombie runner, Red Sox win the pennant.


2004 ALCS Game 5... Tony Clark's ground rule double in the RF corner scores Jeter from 2B and not 1B. Yanks win ALCS 4-1.
   33. winnipegwhip Posted: October 21, 2020 at 03:17 PM (#5984326)
Ties are terrible.


I agree. They have them in Japan but that was a nation that was playing for a tie since late 1942.
   34. . Posted: October 21, 2020 at 03:34 PM (#5984329)
I detest oafball, so I'm fine with the zombie runner. Anything, but anything, that makes a hitter do something other than flail for the fences on the few pitches at which he deigns to swing works for me.
   35. DonPedro Posted: October 21, 2020 at 04:37 PM (#5984352)
Re: 20

Slight problem here. Pendleton's single would not have scored the runner from 2B in that situation. Lonnie Smith had made the last out of the previous inning and would be the zombie runner. After being deked by third baseman Mike Paglairulo into somehow thinking that it was a fly ball which would be caught, Lonnie would have retreated to second base and would have been stranded there.
   36. BDC Posted: October 21, 2020 at 04:49 PM (#5984360)
Seems to me they could start by making the baseball a bit deader, the rosters a bit smaller, and a strict pitch clock a thing in the majors. Outfield walls further from home plate would be welcome too.

I reckon those small changes would be bitterly resisted by players and marketers, but they would bend the game slightly back towards the things most of us seem to enjoy.
   37. Pat Rapper's Delight (as quoted on MLB Network) Posted: October 21, 2020 at 05:09 PM (#5984371)
Game 6, 1991 World Series.

Terry Pendleton singles in zombie runner to give Braves lead in the top of the tenth. Braves win series 4-2.


Careful there... If you're saying the Manfred Runner could have saved us the national horror of Jack Morris, Baseball Hall of Famer, that's gonna swing a lot more people to Manfred's side.
   38. AndrewJ Posted: October 21, 2020 at 07:20 PM (#5984395)
Manfred likes larger playoff, runner in extras

That makes one of us.

   39. Walt Davis Posted: October 22, 2020 at 02:00 AM (#5984483)
On the health and safety thing ... although I'm pretty confident any effect is teeny, the basic idea is (a) the probability of injury is exposure multiplied by risk per exposure time unit -- here inning -- so the fewer innings, the lower the number of injuries; (b) what he said about players out of position due to running out of players to which we could add some pitcher may eventually get stuck in there for many innings of relief. Of course we don't have much data yet on whether the rule actually reduces the number of extras ... and teams will eventually adjust strategies to the new rule that might reduce that effect over time. Still primarily a solution looking for a problem. There's also an assumption that the risk per inning in extras is constant or possibly going up (players out of position) which might not be true but I don't see why risk would be lower ... so if there are fewer extra innings then it's almost unavoidable there would be fewer injuries. Yes, the runner on second is at some risk but somebody's got to eventually score a run in extras so that risk is frequently there anyway.

On non-pitching injuries, I'd assume those are mostly running and strain injuries -- twisted ankles, hammies, lats, wherever plantar fascitis belongs. Some of thsoe come as the result of a collision but I'm pretty sure it's still more common when running to first or whatever. Schwarber tore up his knee not in a collision although possibly in trying to avoid a collision.
   40. Hank Gillette Posted: October 22, 2020 at 08:11 AM (#5984487)
I'd like to see something that dramatically makes winning a division important. Go back to two divisions. Each division winner gets a bye.


Or, add two more teams and reorganize into four eight-team leagues. You know, baseball like it used to be.
   41. Hank Gillette Posted: October 22, 2020 at 08:13 AM (#5984488)
Zombie runners are fine for Little League, but I want no part of them in the majors. Same thing with ties. Ties are terrible.


There is nothing wrong with a tie.
   42. Hank Gillette Posted: October 22, 2020 at 08:16 AM (#5984489)
On the health and safety thing ... although I'm pretty confident any effect is teeny, the basic idea is (a) the probability of injury is exposure multiplied by risk per exposure time unit -- here inning
Injuries tend to increase when people are fatigued. That might be the reason for the decreased injuries, assuming that it is a real thing.
   43. winnipegwhip Posted: October 22, 2020 at 09:09 AM (#5984494)
There is nothing wrong with a tie


Let them be settled in the courts.
   44. winnipegwhip Posted: October 22, 2020 at 09:15 AM (#5984495)
I believe this extra inning rule also shortens the costs of owners in having support staff at the ballpark for an indeterminable amount of time. This was one of the top factors that minor league owners endorsed this rule in its implementation. Nothing is worse than keeping staff around and not getting the return on the labor inputs like you were in concession sales earlier in the game.
   45. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: October 22, 2020 at 09:50 AM (#5984502)
I believe this extra inning rule also shortens the costs of owners in having support staff at the ballpark for an indeterminable amount of time. This was one of the top factors that minor league owners endorsed this rule in its implementation. Nothing is worse than keeping staff around and not getting the return on the labor inputs like you were in concession sales earlier in the game.

If concessions are closed, all the concession people can leave. Only security needs to stay.
   46. Swoboda is freedom Posted: October 22, 2020 at 10:32 AM (#5984516)
There is nothing wrong with a tie


Well tie goes to the runner, so have a foot race decide the winner.
   47. winnipegwhip Posted: October 22, 2020 at 10:39 AM (#5984519)

Well tie goes to the runner, so have a foot race decide the winner.


This is the arbitrator

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