The reason I rate Seinfeld and Curb light years above all other sitcoms (not that I've seen them all) is Larry David's explicit "no hugging, no learning" mantra, the absence of which makes shows like All In The Family and even many episodes of The Simpsons simply unbearable.**

I'm not a fan of the drop a dime and tone switch model that so many sitcoms fall into, where there are jokes for 19 minutes followed by 3 minutes of unearned earnestness. But I think that this claim goes too far in making the argument that comedy can't be mixed with drama, likeable characters, and human relationships. I think that in recent years, Parks and Rec and Community have done a great job telling a story of evolving human relationships while primarily just being really, really funny. I mean, Woody Allen's best films tell a story with real stakes and characters we're invested in while also being funny as hell - are the dramatic aspects "unbearable"?

The reason I rate Seinfeld and Curb light years above all other sitcoms (not that I've seen them all) is Larry David's explicit "no hugging, no learning" mantra, the absence of which makes shows like All In The Family and even many episodes of The Simpsons simply unbearable.**

I'm not a fan of the drop a dime and tone switch model that so many sitcoms fall into, where there are jokes for 19 minutes followed by 3 minutes of unearned earnestness. But I think that this claim goes too far in making the argument that comedy can't be mixed with drama, likeable characters, and human relationships. I think that in recent years, Parks and Rec and Community have done a great job telling a story of evolving human relationships while primarily just being really, really funny. I mean, Woody Allen's best films tell a story with real stakes and characters we're invested in while also being funny as hell - are the dramatic aspects "unbearable"?

Feature films are one thing, 22 minute sitcom episodes are another. There are hundreds or thousands of feature length films that have the time and space to blend a set of essentially likable characters with humor, as does real life. But I've never seen a sitcom that can do that without losing its edge. Even 3 seconds of actual earnestness can often put the kibosh on the whole kabob.

And even with a category of film that is famous for mixing wild humor with sentimental endings---the screwball comedies of the 30's and their modern day imitators---the very best ones are those within that category that lay off the ending schmaltz and stick with the chaos right to the end. Of course this is obviously all a matter of taste, but as a general rule I find that conclusion inescapable.

I'll admit to never getting Seinfeld, although that could be because I am British and just miss most of the references.

Curb Your Enthusiasm I have never liked, but it's very much "cringe" comedy and I've never been a big fan of that. Ditto goes for the British version of the The Office.

Blackadder I love and the last scene of Blackadder Goes Forth is one of the best of any TV Series.

Curb Your Enthusiasm I have never liked, but it's very much "cringe" comedy and I've never been a big fan of that. Ditto goes for the British version of the The Office.

I'm very close to this opinion.

Sorry, but I still LOL when wondering whether a stutterer should be able to use the handicapped toilet.

Feature films are one thing, 22 minute sitcom episodes are another. There are hundreds or thousands of feature length films that have the time and space to blend a set of essentially likable characters with humor, as does real life. But I've never seen a sitcom that can do that without losing its edge. Even 3 seconds of actual earnestness can often put the kibosh on the whole kabob.

Well, this is where the development of the television series as the new serial novel is decisive. In 22 minutes, it's extremely hard to pack in a confined story with all the complexity of a film, but if you serialize your story over 22-minute increments, you can tell all kinds of stories with all kinds of payouts, comedic, dramatic, romantic, satirical, and so on. The two shows that I think do this the best right now are Parks and Rec and Community. The Office (US) used to be good at this, How I Met Your Mother used to be and still is, sometimes, and Up All Night looks like it could get there.

EDIT: A note on the darkness of The Office (UK). Have you seen the Christmas Special? Tim and Dawn end up together. David Brent gets a good date and a little grace note of affection from the staff. The comedy is still almost all cringe, but the characters get love and beauty, in their own little ways.

Matt, I'm sure that those are all good shows, but as you say yourself, they're in an entirely different category than the traditional sitcoms that I was referring to. It also sounds like in order to appreciate them fully, you'd almost have to start from the beginning and go forward, whereas with Seinfeld, it doesn't really matter which episodes you begin with (I never watched , since almost any half dozen or so of them can serve to set the characters in place.

With Curb it helps to watch it a season at a time, but since I don't get HBO, that's what I have to do anyway. (And Curb is so damn good, it will please Ray Ray to know that I've even bought the DVDs instead of just recording them off someone else's TV, which is about the highest compliment I could ever pay to a TV show.)

Curb Your Enthusiasm I have never liked, but it's very much "cringe" comedy and I've never been a big fan of that. Ditto goes for the British version of the The Office.

I'm very close to this opinion.

Me, too. As for Seinfeld, I thought it was good at times but tiresome at times. They really become unlikable after a while, and to be honest I have a hard time watching a group of ######## with no redeeming features walk around and act douchey. (Which is why I can't watch Curb.)

Blackadder was different, for some reason; I adore it.

Could not STAND Kinnison. Yelling and screaming doesn't make you funny.

EDIT: A note on the darkness of The Office (UK). Have you seen the Christmas Special?

The truth is that my TV viewing now is wholly restricted to TCM, sports and the News Hour. After having watched every episode of Seinfeld about 5 to 10 times and every non-schmaltzy episode of The Simpsons nearly that often, I don't even feel the need to watch either of those two for another few years. There just aren't enough hours in the day.

"Cringe comedy"? I like that term. Is that current comiconomenclature or is it original with you? Now that you mention it, I don’t much like it either.

Feature films are one thing, 22 minute sitcom episodes are another. There are hundreds or thousands of feature length films that have the time and space to blend a set of essentially likable characters with humor, as does real life. But I've never seen a sitcom that can do that without losing its edge. Even 3 seconds of actual earnestness can often put the kibosh on the whole kabob.

Actually, many of the '50's and early '60's comedy TV shows fit this--and a lot of it was bad. But the best was great, and the integration of comedy and seriousness in the best of them was seamless and effective. I don't mean just I Love Lucy and The Honeymooners and Andy Griffith. Father Knows Best and the earlier Life With Riley were quite good at this. I’ve just been recently re-watching some of these shows, and they are still effective. Not to mention the later All In the Family and Mary Tyler Moore. Just as tragedy needs its comic relief, so does comedy need some real tincture of sentiment. See even stuff like Raising Arizona and The Big Lebowski. Hell, comedies don't get much more hard-boiled than Bringing Up Baby and His Girl Friday, and the sentiment there is lightly brushed onto the proceedings, yet it's definitely there, and there's a reason for it. Sturges, too. Dr. Strangelove’s final exclamation at end is, when all is said and done, both ridiculous and touching. As is the destruction of the world, for some reason. I have the suspicion that Larry David doesn't get that. I don’t much care for a lot of late W. Allen; I think some of it is cringe seriosity. But, yes, some of it does qualify.

Now, that it's mentioned, that's probably why I find the few episodes I've seen of Curb Your E. so dissatisfying. If a comedy, in the end, doesn’t make you feel good, what’s the point? I like my beer cold, my TV loud, and my comedy flaming.

"Cringe comedy"? I like that. Is that current comiconomenclature or is it original with you? Now that you mention it, I don’t much like it either.

I don't remember knowingly copying it from anywhere, I call it that because of what watching that style of comedy makes me *physically* do!

Blackadder was different, for some reason; I adore it.

Blackadder was over-the-top pantomime villainy as opposed to more mundane everyday unpleasantness of a show like The Office. I guess it's kind of like the uncanny valley; the characters unpleasantness is just that bit too close to being real and becomes creepy or difficult to watch for some people.

It's funny to see people in this thread dump on Kinison, especially after listening to a bunch of comedy podcasts in which really good comedians talk about how in awe they were of him. I just listened to a story about how amazed Carlin was upon first seeing Kinison in a club. He reportedly told people he had to up his game to keep up. Kinison said some obscenely offensive #### and he was a meglomaniac, but to reduce him to a mere screamer seriously underrates the level of his material and performance.

to reduce him to a mere screamer seriously underrates the level of his material and performance.

Or it demonstrates that Kinison's material was (at least from my personal perspective) lost in the screams. In his quieter moments, I actually laughed at some of his stuff, but then he'd start yelling and add that "Ohh! OOOOHHHHH!" ####, and I was out.

Feature films are one thing, 22 minute sitcom episodes are another. There are hundreds or thousands of feature length films that have the time and space to blend a set of essentially likable characters with humor, as does real life. But I've never seen a sitcom that can do that without losing its edge. Even 3 seconds of actual earnestness can often put the kibosh on the whole kabob.

Actually, many of the '50's and early '60's comedy TV shows fit this--and a lot of it was bad. But the best was great, and the integration of comedy and seriousness in the best of them was seamless and effective. I don't mean just I Love Lucy and The Honeymooners and Andy Griffith. Father Knows Best and the earlier Life With Riley were quite good at this.

Of course now you're talking about shows that I not only devoured when I was in grade school and Jr. high, but which I also showed on college campuses in the 70's as "An Evening of Nostalgia". So I know a little bit about them.

And yes, on their own terms they were pretty damn good, especially Lucy and The Honeymooners, but also The Life of Riley, Father Knows Best and Sgt. Bilko, whose sensibility was a lot closer to Seinfeld than the others.

But then it comes down to personal preference, and even though Lucille Ball and Phil Silvers / Nat Hiken were three of the all-time comic geniuses, I still don't laugh as much, or nearly as hard, at those old episodes today as I do when I re-watch Seinfeld or Curb. There's just nothing in any of those 50's sitcoms that's even remotely close to "The Contest", or "You got a question? Just ask the 8-Ball", or "That's easy----you're both going to Hell", or in Curb, the Richard Lewis or Wanda Sykes or Jeff Garlin or Susie Essman (etc., etc.) riffs. But again, this mostly comes down to personal preferences.

I’ve just been recently re-watching some of these shows, and they are still effective. Not to mention the later All In the Family and Mary Tyler Moore. Just as tragedy needs its comic relief, so does comedy need some real tincture of sentiment.

Not that much sentiment. Don't get me started on AITF, which is to overrated TV shows as "productive outs" is to overrated baseball concepts, in a class by itself. But again, YMMV. In Lucy and Riley, the sentiment is genuine, if not particularly funny in itself. In AITF, it's rammed down our throats by a fear of "going too far". If I want to see a comic yet sentimental portrayal of a bigot, I'll take The Major in Fawlty Towers any day, or I'll listen to those friends of mine who send me those endless right wing e-mails. I don't need Norman Lear's preaching.

See, now this is another example of how comedy is just a taste thing, because I found Lucy to be utterly intolerable.

Blackadder I love and the last scene of Blackadder Goes Forth is one of the best of any TV Series.

The entire last episode is great, and quite a departure from the rest of the show.

I put it with the Christmas special of Extras, in that they end really funny shows on an entirely different note.

By the way, I saw a documentary on Black Adder and they covered that last scene at some length. Apparently they were scrambling to figure out what do because that last shot looked so terrible and they didn't have time to re-shoot. So finally someone said to try it in slow motion.

The Major in Fawlty Towers any day, or I'll listen to those friends of mine who send me those endless right wing e-mails. I don't need Norman Lear's preaching.

Can't believe I'd left that off the list. Add the Towers.

I'm not sure if watching an unlikeable man continually fail fits Morty's definition of comedy that makes you feel good, but Basil Fawlty is the king of, if not comedy, then some manner of glorious entertainment.

Oh yes, I do agree on Fawlty Towers. Absolute genius stuff. The fire extinguisher/tonail/Germans episode almost made me hemorrhage, I laughed so hard.

"Won't you PLEASE stop mentioning the war??"

"You started it."

"We did not start it!"

"Yes you did! You invaded Poland!"

Not sure that is a New York centric conceit though, roughly around that time even in St Louis, we were transitioning from just a 314 area code to a larger influx of 573 area codes(573 means you are a hoosier/redneck/white trash---type of thing)

The thing about 212 is that it used to belong to everyone in New York City, and then slowly became more and more exclusive. It was a really big deal when Queens and Brooklyn went to 718, and then the Bronx lost 212, and then finally parts of Manhattan itself lost 212.

A 212 area code can be a sign of a long history as a Manhattan resident. For someone who is a long-term Manhattan resident to switch from 212 to 646, it potentially marks you as a transplant rather than a "real" New Yorker. (I have a 516 area code, and I wouldn't change my number to get a 212 area code, so I don't really buy into that. But if I got a landline, I'd prefer it to be a 212 number. 646 still feels like a "cell phone" area code.)

Speaking of area code agony, it's hard to believe that up until the mid-1990's, you could phone from Springfield, VA to Germantown, MD, and all points in between, without having to dial an area code of any type, since such calls were all considered to be within the Washington, DC area. That now seems about 100 years ago, or as if I'm describing some unsettled island on a distant planet.

A 212 area code can be a sign of a long history as a Manhattan resident. For someone who is a long-term Manhattan resident to switch from 212 to 646, it potentially marks you as a transplant rather than a "real" New Yorker. (I have a 516 area code, and I wouldn't change my number to get a 212 area code, so I don't really buy into that. But if I got a landline, I'd prefer it to be a 212 number. 646 still feels like a "cell phone" area code.)

This is a concept that will die with us. People in their 20's (in my experience) don't know or care about area codes; a phone number is just a phone number, and you just enter it into your cell phone and forget about it.

Speaking of area code agony, it's hard to believe that up until the mid-1990's, you could phone from Springfield, VA to Germantown, MD, and all points in between, without having to dial an area code of any type, since such calls were all considered to be within the Washington, DC area. That now seems about 100 years ago, or as if I'm describing some unsettled island on a distant planet.

One of the things that used to come up (probably still does) when area codes were running out of numbers was the question of whether to do a split or an overlay.

A split ends up inconveniencing about 50% of the people involved, as their area code suddenly changes. A minor problem for individuals; a bigger problem for businesses that might have to reprint cards, stationery, and so on. However, it maintains seven-digit dialing within each area code.

An overlay is (IMO) more sensible, as everyone keeps their numbers and they just issue new ones in the new area code. But it means that everyone has to use 10-digit or 11-digit dialing, even when calling within the same area code. This freaks out old people who associate dialing an area code with long distance. Of course, dialing an area code hasn't automatically meant long distance for a very, very long time, but you can't tell some people.

Cell phone plans with unlimited local and long distance make all of this moot.

Boy, no love for Arrested Development? Best comedy ever, IMO.

"Cringe comedy" is a fairly well-known term at this point, I think. I'm not much of a fan of it either.

Boy, no love for Arrested Development? Best comedy ever, IMO.

I would say most people on this site love it, it just hasn't really come up in this topic. I can rewatch AD over and over again, and not only does it not get old, I find new things to laugh about.

I'd like to be able to go back to the practice of rendering the first two numbers of your phone number as an exchange, like PEnnsylvania 6-5000, or whatever.

the last scene of Blackadder Goes Forth is one of the best of any TV Series.

I found it to be a bit over the top. :)

I'm trying to think of a New York specific joke from Seinfeld and I can only think of Kramer's bit where he finds himself at 1st Street and 1st Avenue and calls it "the nexus of the universe."

Really? I thought Seinfeld had non stop New York references. If that show was set anywhere else, they'd have to rewrite the entire script. What about George working for the Yankees and all the bits with Steinbrenner, Kramer trying to get Paul O'Neill to hit two homeruns for the sick kid in the hospital, Elaine dating Keith Hernandez and Kramer and Newman's "loathing" of him, Jerry's conversation about the Mets chances with the naked weirdo on the subway, the low fat yogurt episode with Mayor Guiliani, Kramer taking Susan's parents on a carriage ride through Central Park, Jerry dating Bette Midlers understudy for a Broadway play, Kramer being thrown in the Hudson by his girlfriends mafia-like brothers after falling asleep and her thinking he's dead, etc, etc.

As someone mentioned earlier, Seinfeld was the opposite of shows like Friends, which could've taken place anywhere without having to make any major script changes.

Speaking of area code agony, it's hard to believe that up until the mid-1990's, you could phone from Springfield, VA to Germantown, MD, and all points in between, without having to dial an area code of any type, since such calls were all considered to be within the Washington, DC area. That now seems about 100 years ago, or as if I'm describing some unsettled island on a distant planet.

In the early 90s I recall dialing "202," but not preceding it with a "1," when calling the District from Maryland and Virginia. What am I missing, Andy?

I'd like to be able to go back to the practice of rendering the first two numbers of your phone number as an exchange, like PEnnsylvania 6-5000, or whatever.

The practice definitely had style points, I'll give it that. I can still remember some commercial for something in the Chicago area that had the number "Hudson 3-2700." No idea what the commercial was for, but I remember the number.

the last scene of Blackadder Goes Forth is one of the best of any TV Series.

I found it to be a bit over the top. :)

Oh, nicely done! Clap clap clap clap clap.

I'd like to be able to go back to the practice of rendering the first two numbers of your phone number as an exchange, like PEnnsylvania 6-5000, or whatever.

This, in a thread about Seinfeld, immediately reminded me of Michael Richards' character in Transylvania 6-5000.

The practice definitely had style points, I'll give it that. I can still remember some commercial for something in the Chicago area that had the number "Hudson 3-2700." No idea what the commercial was for, but I remember the number.

I remember learning our first phone number in the US as TUcker 5-3671.

[129]

Are you a Real Chicagoan? - chicagotribune.com
October 19, 2011 ...

26. HUdson 3-2700 was the phone number for what business?
A. C.E.T. Television
B. Empire Carpet
C. Miller Hudson
D. Father and Son Pizza
E. Boushelle Carpet Cleaners
F. WMAQ-AM
G. I don't know

http://www.chicagotribune.com/chi-realchicagoquiz,0,5922242.weightedquiz

I remember learning our first phone number in the US as TUcker 5-3671.

I remember living in a place so small that we didn't even have to dial the first two digits. Our phone number was just 4-2312.

I'm also not a fan of "cringe comedy" (great term), as I'll often pause the show to physically flinch/cringe. Seriously. My empathy levels must be too high because I also can't watch someone butcher a national anthem when they show it in the sports highlights later.

I find that it's I prefer comedy shows without a studio audience almost exclusively.

Simpsons (first 10 seasons), Arrested Development, Up All Night, Community, and 30 Rock are all on my must-watch list.

However, if a show has a studio audience (hence, breaks for laughs), then it definitely needs to be a multi-layered/multi-character story that connects everything. Seinfeld was probably the best of all time for that. There are a few episodes that when you breakdown everything that happened to every character, it's hard to imagine they fit it all into 22-24 minutes. How I Met Your Mother is also good at this and adds in the extra flashforward/flashbacks to tell even more.

Then, there is WKRP.
It's got a laugh track. The stories weren't deep at all.
But it had the best comedic ensemble I have ever watched, and they were hilarious.

People are missing the point about Seinfeld's NY-centricity(is that a word?) The fact that George worked for the Yankees and Jerry dated a broadway understudy were undoubtedly only allowed for a show set in NYC. The fact that these things exist didn't mean a non New Yorker wouldn't understand. The original poster said he didn't like it until he moved to NYC. Could you just not identify with a guy working for the Yankees until you drove past the stadium?

Could you just not identify with a guy working for the Yankees until you drove past the stadium?

I think it's more he couldn't identify with a guy being like George and not getting the #### kicked out of him on a fairly routine basis.

Because that's what would happen to George in most places.

Speaking of area code agony, it's hard to believe that up until the mid-1990's, you could phone from Springfield, VA to Germantown, MD, and all points in between, without having to dial an area code of any type, since such calls were all considered to be within the Washington, DC area. That now seems about 100 years ago, or as if I'm describing some unsettled island on a distant planet.

In the early 90s I recall dialing "202," but not preceding it with a "1," when calling the District from Maryland and Virginia. What am I missing, Andy?

Not sure, Jason, but I remember my vague displeasure when I first had to dial 10 numbers from Maryland to anywhere in the DC area, which was sometime in the early or mid-90's. The "1" part was only needed when you dialed places like Frederick or the Eastern Shore, before the Eastern Shore got put into the new 410 area. It may have been as early as about 1992, though, rather than the mid-90's.

And of course today, whenever you dial long distance, you only add the "1" from a landline, not your cellphone, even if in both cases you're just paying a flat monthly rate.

------------------------------

I remember living in a place so small that we didn't even have to dial the first two digits. Our phone number was just 4-2312.

When my parents moved to Washington in 1951, Washington, St. Louis and Cincinnati still had 6 digit phone numbers. And at the end of WWII, only New York City had 7 digits---not even Chicago had enough telephones to necessitate it. Washington added the 7th digit in 1953, St. Louis in 1954, and Cincinnati only in 1956.

People are missing the point about Seinfeld's NY-centricity(is that a word?) The fact that George worked for the Yankees and Jerry dated a broadway understudy were undoubtedly only allowed for a show set in NYC. The fact that these things exist didn't mean a non New Yorker wouldn't understand. The original poster said he didn't like it until he moved to NYC. Could you just not identify with a guy working for the Yankees until you drove past the stadium?


To me, it's not the Yankees or Mets or Broadway stuff that strikes an authentic New York note. It's things like Jerry not letting his neighbor into the building because he had never seen the guy before, or George stressing out about moving parked cars from one side of the street to another, Elaine panicking while stuck on a stalled subway car, etc. It's the little jokes, like:

KRAMER: I'm lookin' at Ray's Pizza. You know where that is?
JERRY: Is it Famous Ray's?
KRAMER: No. It's Original Ray's.
JERRY: Famous Original Ray's?
KRAMER: It's just Original, Jerry!

(Perhaps this is enough of a well-known cliche at this point that non-New Yorkers will get it. Conan did a sketch about New York pizza the other night and had a similar joke.)

It doesn't take a New Yorker to find those jokes funny, but I can understand why people say the show is very New York-centric.

FRanklin 7-2150 was our phone number when I was a wee prat.

If Seinfeld were only understandable to New Yorkers Jerry never would've gotten rich from it.

I adored Bailey Quarters...ah, if only!

Sgt Bilko was great, Lucy was more misses than hits. Arrested Development is the summit for me, really nothing close.

I was so thrilled to get that 212 area code when we moved to Brooklyn in 1980. Only to have it stolen away from me 2 or 3 years later. Now my cell phone has this utterly bizarre "347" which I'd never heard of before.

Much of Andy Kaufmann's work was admittedly appalling, but those bits were intended to appall; if you weren't appalled you weren't paying attention. To me, he was a genius, and certain of his bits will always live for me.

Speaking of area code oddness, in these parts I occasionally dial a number and that peculiar woman with the stick up her butt (she sounds like a teacher of fourth-graders who despises children) informs me in no uncertain terms that I don't use the area code when making this call. If they know that, why don't they just make the damned connection? Automated hectoring really pisses me off.

Could not STAND Kinnison. Yelling and screaming doesn't make you funny.

Agree with the latter sentence. Kinison was so outraged by life, though, that in his case the yelling seemed earned, and that anything less couldn't convey his shock, horror, and disgust at what we go through. YMMV, obviously.

The thing about Kinison was that I felt like he needed to scream. He was angry and that anger came from some pretty dark places.

coke to something other.

I watched a couple of episodes of WKRP on Hulu today. The music is changed in the online shows too. They even changed the one-second bits of songs for the contest where a listener had to name all the songs for $5000.

I found a copy of a 19th century Los Angeles phone directory one time. I think USC's number was 57.

Bailey Quarters is still awesome, music rights issues or not.

So. Much. This.

Here's an interesting page on phone exchanges. I like to give my home number as Axworthy 4-XXXX, just to watch the double-takes.