I understand the reasoning behind allowing the new GM to hire his own manager but I think it is a sign of impatience or a lack of planning when you fire so many different managers in a brief period of time. The last 3 managers have lasted a combined 6 years. Terry Collins lasted 7 on his own. Buck was the manager when the team won more than 100 games last year.

Totally agree its unfair, and I like him but reality is he's older and can be replaced with someone equally competent.

Who are the leading candidates for this job? this has to be considered a top post.

Who are the leading candidates for this job? this has to be considered a top post.

Craig Counsell

FWIW Counsell has strongly suggested he wants to step away after this season

Also, maybe things aren’t as positive between CC and Stearns as NY media claims.

But CC definitely out of Milwaukee after the season. He has rebuffed every attempt by mgt on a contract

old vibe was Stearns brings Counsell with him.

new vibe is Counsell - who lives in Milwaukee year-round - wants a year off partly because he has two kids in high school, iirc.

trick is that if he does sit out, and the new Brewers MGR does well and so does the new Mets guy, he'll be out of luck on both fronts - one that is "home" and one that seemingly would pay him the most.

Showalter's only 67? I would have pegged him at nearly 80. Seems like he's been managing since the dawn of time.

I know i just realized that after I posted. I looked at his age 67 thought: yeah he's old then Im thinking wait a minute he's only 67?

I refuse to believe that Buck Showwalter was in his 30s when he was on Seinfeld. He looked like an old man.

Mike Puma
@NYPost_Mets
·
47m
According to a person in the room, Pete Alonso took it the hardest when he found out yesterday that Buck Showalter was fired. Alonso had to be talked out of going directly to Steve Cohen to voice his unhappiness with the decision.

Why shouldn't Alonso get to speak to Cohen? Sure it won't change the decision. But why should Cohen not meet with one of his name players? That just seems weird that anyone felt that Alonso shouldn't speak with the owner.

Maybe Cohen didn't want to meet because Alonso had a bat with him and was screaming something like "I'll bash his bald head in!"

When you decide to fire a guy with a reputation as a pretty decent manager before you’re even officially in the POB job, or even talked to him, you better select someone who does better. You’ve used up your scapegoat allowance.

Why shouldn't Alonso get to speak to Cohen? Sure it won't change the decision. But why should Cohen not meet with one of his name players? That just seems weird that anyone felt that Alonso shouldn't speak with the owner.

is it weird to counsel (so to speak) a very emotional guy not to speak to the owner when he is a very emotional state?

I mean, what could go wrong?

no idea where you get the idea that Cohen doesn't meet with players (some owners don't, but he does).

Cohen and his wife, who iirc has Hispanic roots, are particularly close with Lindor and his family - hence the 'disastrous from the moment it happened' Lindor bromance guy JBaez for prospect Pete Crow-Armstrong trade, btw. the hope is that Cohen learned that there is a limit to fanboying - I suspect he has.

When you decide to fire a guy with a reputation as a pretty decent manager before you’re even officially in the POB job, or even talked to him, you better select someone who does better. You’ve used up your scapegoat allowance.

Good trolling.

13--never suggested that Cohen wouldn't meet with the player.

It was someone else who apparently intervened. That is the person who has weird ideas on who gets to speak with who. I was merely pointing out that Cohen should be able to handle any such interaction. And by your own admission he can.

And so what if he's emotional. You get more real conversations when folks are not guarded. This whole 'oh you need to calm down' stuff is so much bullshit.

But the moment has passed. So it won't happen. And possibly an opportunity lost for a reach exchange

Showalter's only 67? I would have pegged him at nearly 80. Seems like he's been managing since the dawn of time.

I just assumed he was in his late 40s / early 50s when he was managing the Yankees.

13. I read stories about how disastrous the Baez trade was; they got 1.8 WAR for 47 games.

Crow Armstrong could be the next Rajah, who also started off slowly in the majors, but wouldn't it have been "more disastrous" for NYM to have signed Baez to a long term deal? he's not looking so hot now.

Player's i/v'd, Alonso, McNeil, Lindor really liked Showalter.

They probably should have kept Showalter one more year so Stearns could come up to speed but then there's the risk the Mets win and he has to extend him. This was the thing that made Shildt's firing awkward

yes, when your team is not going to make the playoffs regardless, it's all about the WAR for the meaningless player you get !

PCA is - still - only age 21 and had an .876 OPS in the minors this year with 20 HR and 37 SB as a former first-round pick.

that was a preposterous trade even at the time.

Baez not only was irrelevant, he cultivated Lindor's worst instincts (a joint FU literal "thumbs down" to the home fans!) which Lindor completely shed after that season btw. he has been a model citizen since, and won back the fans.

if PCA doesn't pan out at all, it still was a stupid trade but less harm done. But I have no idea why anyone would defend that trade, either at the time or ever. I know posters like to be contrarian, but geesh.

I will be very surprised if Counsell isn't announced (or at least leaked) as Mets manager within days of the expiration of his contract in Milwaukee.

Is that a specific date, or does it simply expire the day Milwaukee is eliminated?

19. I am just looking from the standpoint of numbers, not narrative. It doesn't matter to me whether Lindor is now as nice as Gary Carter; it's performance on the field.

I only found the following discussion on BBTF regarding the trade, maybe there are others:

https://www.baseballthinkfactory.org/gonfalon_cubs/discussion/this_all_sucks

Mr. Richtingen is a pretty astute poster, he said the following: The income from this fire sale was pretty disappointing, but it doesn’t seem like teams these days are willing to give up star prospect talent for a couple of months of star major league talent in a pennant race. To trade four players like these and the best player in return is Pete Crow-Armstrong… wow. Not that they’re bad, especially Crow-Armstrong, but none of them are blue chips, or even teal or aquamarine chips. I mean, at least the return from the Darvish trade consisted of very young super-toolsy tabula rasa players.

So, HM, your view of Mr. C-A is not a unanimous one

Also, with the benefit of hindsight, maybe CHC would have gotten more had they traded Rizzo, Bryant and Baez sooner, but they don't seem to be worth much now. Better to trade 1 year early than one year late, Branch Rickey, also followed by as described by Tommy Lasanga "it ain't my f***ing fault it's" Campanis

Walks Clog Up the Bases sounds like the owner of a crystal ball: But maybe I'm just shell-shocked still from Alfonso Soriano, but Baez strikes me as the type of hitter who could just fall apart without much notice. Big swing, doesn't walk, etc. He's still a defensive wizard and a great base-runner, but he just seems like a guy whose offensive game will age poorly and harshly.

Now, I get the narrative, Lindor's a nice guy and Baez is a jerk, feels great to judge people, I do it all the time myself, but what's the point? Is this Bagwell for Anderson? So far the trade was a positive for NYM, they got value and did not end up signing Baez, which has worked out to their benefit

but the Mets got no value.

in real life, if your team is out of the playoff race, and you acquire a player who performs reasonably well on the field in a meaningless stretch run - that, to be blunt, is worthless. no value.

PCA is a former first-round pick, he's still only 21 years old, and had an .876 OPS in the minors this year with 20 HR and 37 SB this season.

if your guy knew years ago that resume was doomed to fail in 2024 and beyond - then why he is wasting his time posting on fan sites? he should be running operations for an MLB team.

they didn't sign Baez in part because he was so despised by the fan base who didn't care about his meaningless rental WAR - AND Cohen realized the error of his ways.

I have no idea why you assumed the Mets were determined to sign Baez, but if they were, why bother giving up a first-round prospect for him? come offseason, he was "free to good home" - minus the atrocious contract someone would have been dumb enough to sign him for.

the Mets at no point ever got anything "positive" from this trade, and they never will.

it was a stupid trade. what the heck, it might feel liberating for you to get off this hill and just concede the point. would it hurt to try?

as for "judging people," BBTF was angry when I noted that Lindor metaphorically pissed on the Mets beat writers early in his first season and - with a wide grin - told them and the TV audience that it was raining. but that's what he did.

after realizing how stupid he was, he got his act together before the next season even started. now all I do is respect his change in attitude. he has been a consummate pro - which is more in keeping with his reputation in Cleveland.

but now I'm at fault for "judging" him again.

only on BBTF.

I don't think Mets fans will ever adjust to being so far, far down the board of "frustrated" compared to almost every other fan base.

they ruled the roost on that for a half-century, particularly after the Kazmir trade was made (and again. and again.).

but "we made another bad trade!" is thin gruel to almost everyone else.

not a bad place to be, at all - but that is your place.

it works a lot better on a Mets-only board

I have a Mets 1973 question. I've mentioned that WS a couple of times...

SO Mays made 2 errors in game 2 and came off the bench to PH in game 3. But after that he doesnt appear, even though they really could have used a PH in game 7.

this article seems to say that Mays announced his retirement at the end of WS game 2:

https://baseballegg.com/2018/09/25/when-old-man-willie-won-game-two-of-the-1973-world-series-for-the-mets/

but Mays had already earlier announced his official retirement on SEP 20. So what happened here? Was he so embarrassed that he didnt want to make the trip to Oakland for game 6 and 7?

It is known that the NY owners did a lot to get Mays to NY, they gave him a 7 year post baseball retirement job and paid for his apartment in NYC. I think it was Mrs Payson or Don Grant who told him he could do whatever he wanted when he was with the club. There is a video of a reporter asking Berra do you know where Mays is and Berras says: "I dont" But I dont know if that was one game in the middle of the season Willie took off.

SO did Mays take off the rest of the series?

if your guy knew years ago that resume was doomed to fail in 2024 and beyond - then why he is wasting his time posting on fan sites? he should be running operations for an MLB team.

What does this mean? Who's

your guy

? What is

that resume

?

Mr. HM, this appears to be a bit ambiguous.

If the Mets' front office had an inaccurate perception of the team's chances of making the playoffs, that appears to be a different issue than whether the team received value in the trade.

Am I misunderstanding things, weren't the Mets in first place by 4 games when they traded for Baez?

. PCA is a former first-round pick, he's still only 21 years old, and had an .876 OPS in the minors this year with 20 HR and 37 SB this season.

I can’t believe I have to point this out, but those numbers are from long after the trade and therefore, you know, couldn’t have factored into the decisionmaking. He just wasn’t that well regarded at the time of the trade. Hell, he was considered a meh first round pick when the Mets drafted him.

I didn't love the hire of Buck at the time, but they were great in his first year, and I don't give him much blame for this year. The roster was a house of cards that predictably did not stay standing.

in real life, if your team is out of the playoff race, and you acquire a player who performs reasonably well on the field in a meaningless stretch run - that, to be blunt, is worthless. no value.

When the Mets traded PCA for Baez, they were in first place, 5 games ahead of the Braves. Don't let the facts get in your way though, you angry old twit.

Obviously a rich team like the Mets can change their fortunes with the next contract but ... have we seen peak Met?

Alvarez -- a promising young C
Alonso -- FA after next year, unclear what sort of long-term extension makes sense
Mceil -- looks like the late-bloomer window is closing
Lindor -- good news as he may be back to peak Lindor for the next few years
Baty -- still young (24) but what a terrible season
Nimmo -- very good season

But that's it. Another 7-8 slots to fill and, as far as I know, not a deep farm system. (I know, they picked up some guys in those trades where they ate all that money.) Marte is still around for two years, he could bounce back (probably will bounce back to at least average).

On the pitching side, it's nothing but Senga and Quintana (35) in the rotation. Nothing really in the pen (38-yo Ottavino has a player option; 36-yo Brooks Raley is under a team option).

Add Ohtani and ... you have the Angels. :-)

By the way, Javy's "reasonably well" performance for the Mets: 299/371/515, 140 OPS+, 1.8 WAR in 186 PA. Some of us might refer to that as "excellent" or "All-Star" or even "MVP" or, good golly, "HoF-level" performance over that short period. It may or may not have been worth PCA -- an honest debate -- but it's one of the better deadline pickup performances you'll find this side of Randy Johnson. He was, give or take, Mookie Betts for two months. No wonder the fans despised him. That'll teach Coehn not to listen to Lindor.

Obviously a rich team like the Mets can change their fortunes with the next contract

I know, they picked up some guys in those trades where they ate all that money.

Nothing really in the pen (38-yo Ottavino has a player option; 36-yo Brooks Raley is under a team option).

And Edwin Diaz.

When the Mets traded PCA for Baez, they were in first place

that is correct. at 55-48, the Mets had a 4-game lead in the NL East.

so I was wrong about the trade being senseless from the get-go. it didn't work out, and it may work out badly, but those are different things.

now let's make "I was wrong" the BBTF mantra for 2024 - it's liberating ! (when necessary, of course)

And Edwin Diaz.

The new Mike Crudale?

now let's make "I was wrong" the BBTF mantra for 2024

Complete with its own (excellent) theme song.

I was wrong..

And Edwin Diaz.

The new Mike Crudale?

I'm tired of ballplayers like Mike Crudale having two excellent seasons in the majors and then getting hurt and playing in Europe and stuff. (Whoops, wrong meme!)

The Mets also got Trevor Williams in the Baez trade, who gave them 122 innings with a 3.17 ERA (124 ERA+) and 1.9 WAR over the remainder of 2021 and 2022.

PCA had been a 1st round pick, but at the time of the trade I believe he was recovering from shoulder surgery -- he only played 6 games his first season in the minors.

In retrospect it may turn out to be a terrible trade, but it wasn't "disastrous" at the time.

Also Howie, your criticism of Lindor for disrespecting the press was silly at the time and still is.

When you decide to fire a guy with a reputation as a pretty decent manager before you’re even officially in the POB job, or even talked to him, you better select someone who does better. You’ve used up your scapegoat allowance.

Good trolling.

But he's right.

I was saying something similar about the Red Sox hiring the next POBO. If the new POBO immediately fires Cora then that means the new POBO diagnosed the problem from the outside, which means the POBO wasn't even curious to confirm with internal info whether the diagnosis was correct. If they come in, spend some time getting to know the baseball operations there, and *then* determine that the manager must go, that's perfectly fine. At least then you have a sense of how much the manager was the problem, and you can determine what you need in a new hire to turn things around.

Before Day 1 Stearns knows Showalter was the problem - except we all know he wasn't, right? The only way this goes well for Stearns is if he's got someone lined up who is so clearly better than Showalter. Despite Showalter's faults that's a very short list.

Mets GM Billy Eppler resigns. Circumstances unclear - does he have something else lined up, doesn’t want to work for Stearns, or just want to spend more time with his family?

Well, the general reason: his boss (the owner) created a new level and brought someone in from outside. Which is for all practical purposes a demotion, and perfectly understood in the executive world to communicate "your services are no longer required; don't let the door hit you in the ass on your way out."

The specific impetus for this particular timing, I will hazard a guess, is that nominally the manager is supposed to report to the General Manager, but Eppler's new boss is about to hire a new manager, now that his contract with Milwaukee is up, without paying any attention to what Eppler thinks about it.

The specific impetus for this particular timing, I will hazard a guess, is that nominally the manager is supposed to report to the General Manager, but Eppler's new boss is about to hire a new manager, now that his contract with Milwaukee is up, without paying any attention to what Eppler thinks about it.

If only...

Post Exclusive; Eppler resignation came amid MLB investigation into improper Injury List placements