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Sunday, December 08, 2019

Miller, Simmons elected to HOF on Modern Era ballot

On the eve of baseball’s Winter Meetings getting underway in San Diego, the Hall of Fame Class of 2020 officially has its first members. Of the 10 candidates on the Modern Baseball Era ballot, the Veteran’s Committee announced on Sunday night that former MLBPA director Marvin Miller and Cardinals, Braves and Brewers catcher Ted Simmons had both been selected for induction in the Hall.

The other nominees on the ballot—made up of a group whose primary contributions to baseball came between 1970 and 1987—included Dwight Evans, Steve Garvey, Tommy John, Don Mattingly, Thurman Munson, Dale Murphy, Dave Parker and Lou Whitaker.

Congratulations to Simmons and to the Miller family.

 

QLE Posted: December 08, 2019 at 08:21 PM | 67 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
  Tags: hall of fame, marvin miller, ted simmons

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   1. asinwreck Posted: December 08, 2019 at 08:35 PM (#5906892)
The only time Bowie Kuhn ever finished ahead of Marvin Miller was in getting inducted in the Hall.
   2. QLE Posted: December 08, 2019 at 08:41 PM (#5906894)
The full results:

Ted Simmons 13
Marvin Miller 12
Dwight Evans 8
Dave Parker 7
Steve Garvey 6
Lou Whitaker 6

The rest of the field (Tommy John, Don Mattingly, Thurman Munson, and Dale Murphy) received three votes or fewer each.
   3. AndrewJ Posted: December 08, 2019 at 08:41 PM (#5906895)
Like the Red Sox and Cubs winning the World Series, Marvin Miller in the HOF is something I assumed I'd never see.
   4. bob gee Posted: December 08, 2019 at 08:43 PM (#5906897)
Finally! Miller finally makes it, he deserved it years ago but better late than never.
   5. The Duke Posted: December 08, 2019 at 08:43 PM (#5906898)
That’s a great result. Simba is a great add and I’m very happy that Miller got elected. So I guess Dwight Evans is next in line now
   6. Kiko Sakata Posted: December 08, 2019 at 08:43 PM (#5906899)
From Jay Jaffe on Twitter:

Modern Baseball Era Ballot (12 votes needed for election) Simmons (13 votes, 81.3%); Miller (12 votes, 75%); Evans (8 votes, 50%); Parker (7 votes, 43.8%); Garvey (6 votes, 37.5%); Whitaker (6 votes, 37.5%); John, Mattingly, Munson and Murphy each received three or fewer votes.


Came within a couple of votes of being a shutout - which is a danger with a ballot that's too deep and a voting limit that's too small (4). Surprised how little support Whitaker got and pleasantly surprised how good Dwight Evans did in his first showing.

Also per Jaffe (among others, I think), Simmons is the first player elected who dropped off the BBWAA ballot after only one year since they solidified the 5% rule.

EDIT: Coke to QLE on the vote totals
   7. asinwreck Posted: December 08, 2019 at 08:49 PM (#5906903)
Simmons had a heart attack 26 years ago that forced him to give up running the Pirates. Glad he's alive to see this day.
   8. Jaack Posted: December 08, 2019 at 09:00 PM (#5906906)
I'm glad they elected 2 deserving people and I'm glad that Evans got substantial support.

Mixed bag for Whitaker. Some support is better than no support, but it seemed from the commentary from hall of gamers that there was more... substantial support. Perhaps some of his supporters moved to Evans or Simmons to get someone elected.

This is definitely a better result than last year - Garvey votes make me sad, but I doubt he ever gets consensus. Parker... whatever. He may make it someday if he gets the right committee.
   9. SoSH U at work Posted: December 08, 2019 at 09:09 PM (#5906911)
I'm stunned by the level of support for Whitaker. I thought he was the most likely candidate, given all the talk after Jack and Tram went in.
   10. It's regretful that PASTE was able to get out Posted: December 08, 2019 at 09:19 PM (#5906914)
Miller openly, vehemently, and consistently did not want to be elected to the Hall of Fame. No surprise that the electors chose not to respect his wishes, I suppose.
   11. Howie Menckel Posted: December 08, 2019 at 09:19 PM (#5906915)
I appreciate the significance of Marvin Miller in the history of the sport.

but having voters choosing between a labor pioneer and star players seems kind of ...... weird.
   12. Dag Nabbit at ExactlyAsOld.com Posted: December 08, 2019 at 09:24 PM (#5906916)
I'm stunned by the level of support for Whitaker. I thought he was the most likely candidate, given all the talk after Jack and Tram went in.

Trammell & Morris going in could've hurt Whitaker. "We just put in two 1980s Tigers, do we really need to put a 3rd one in?"
   13. It's regretful that PASTE was able to get out Posted: December 08, 2019 at 09:28 PM (#5906917)
I don't get the impression anyone currently involved with the current Veterans Committees takes Lou Whitaker seriously as a candidate.

He'll eventually go in, because his numbers demand it--but I fear it may not be while he's still around to enjoy the honor.
   14. Astroenteritis Posted: December 08, 2019 at 09:36 PM (#5906920)
Just have to say I am so happy to see Simmons elected. I've been hoping for so many years that he would make it, and am overjoyed to see it happen.
   15. majorflaw Posted: December 08, 2019 at 09:37 PM (#5906922)
“Miller openly, vehemently, and consistently did not want to be elected to the Hall of Fame. No surprise that the electors chose not to respect his wishes, I suppose.”

Yes, exactly. Inducting his corpse against his frequently and clearly stated wishes is the HoF’s final F U to Marvin Miller. Disgraceful.
   16. SoSH U at work Posted: December 08, 2019 at 09:40 PM (#5906923)
Miller openly, vehemently, and consistently did not want to be elected to the Hall of Fame. No surprise that the electors chose not to respect his wishes, I suppose.


Not consistently. He very much wanted to go in while he was alive. When he was old and had slipped quite a bit (on two separate occasions he and his pal Murray accused, without any evidence, specific voters of keeping him out, both of whom supported him), he said he didn't want to be elected after he was gone.

I don't think the Hall voters should have been all that concerned about what his wishes were.
   17. It's regretful that PASTE was able to get out Posted: December 08, 2019 at 10:23 PM (#5906929)
Bill James, who was a friend of Miller's, posted this three days ago on his site, by way of explaining how Miller felt:

Marvin did battle for many years with Bowie Kuhn, and Miller won EVERY skirmish, without exception, and won the war. It was really remarkable how LITTLE Kuhn understood about labor relations or labor law, and this lack of understanding made it inevitable that (a) that there would be serious conflicts between players and owners, and (b) that the establishment would lose the battles. I'm understating it a little, not quite getting there. Marvin got blamed by the public for "causing" strikes, but in Marvin's mind it was Kuhn who had caused the labor strife by trying to do things that were not in good faith and not consistent with labor law.

There was a point when Marvin Miller would have been honored to be selected for the Hall of Fame, and there was a point when he felt that the moment had passed, but he could have been persuaded to accept the honor. But when Kuhn was named to the Hall of Fame in 2008, Marvin was like "You have GOT to be #@&*CSBS(*&F KIDDING me." It was pretty much the way that Bob Gibson would have reacted if the Hall of Fame had selected Ray Sadecki and not selected him. Ray Sadecki is maybe too good there; maybe more like Al Jackson, or Barney Schultz. Jay Hook. He was personally offended. It was not difficult to understand why.
   18. The Yankee Clapper Posted: December 08, 2019 at 10:31 PM (#5906934)
The Committee got Miller & Simmons right, but missing on Whitaker continues to perplex many, myself included. Perhaps next time.
   19. The Duke Posted: December 08, 2019 at 10:33 PM (#5906935)
I don’t get or really care what Miller himself thought or whether he was outraged that the equivalent of Harold Baines (Kuhn) got in before him. Life is complicated and sometimes unfair. But his body of work nears to be recognized and put in its proper place. There probably no one more responsible for the success that baseball has achieved in the last 50 years than Miller.

It will be fascinating to see who gets the honor of giving his speech.
   20. The Duke Posted: December 08, 2019 at 10:50 PM (#5906937)
Simmons tonight :

“I tell people I’ve lived a charmed life. My whole life has been charmed. Since I was a little boy, I wanted to be a major league baseball player, just like millions and millions of other people. I got to do all that. So, in the past years, when I was not elected to the Hall of Fame, I couldn’t in good conscience walk around with a chip on my shoulder.

“If I had spent one second walking around grieving or walking around angry, I’d have been ashamed of myself. My life has been way too good.”
   21. Eric J can SABER all he wants to Posted: December 08, 2019 at 11:24 PM (#5906942)
I don't get the impression anyone currently involved with the current Veterans Committees takes Lou Whitaker seriously as a candidate.

And yet six of them voted for him, more than voted for players like John, Mattingly, and Murphy, all of whom lasted significantly longer on the BBWAA ballot.
   22. It's regretful that PASTE was able to get out Posted: December 08, 2019 at 11:32 PM (#5906944)
It will be fascinating to see who gets the honor of giving his speech.


As he neared the end of his life Miller apparently extracted promises from everyone close to him--James said Miller made him promise, at least--not to agree to give the speech, so yeah, it will be interesting to see who does.
   23. SoSH U at work Posted: December 08, 2019 at 11:42 PM (#5906950)
There was a point when Marvin Miller would have been honored to be selected for the Hall of Fame, and there was a point when he felt that the moment had passed, but he could have been persuaded to accept the honor. But when Kuhn was named to the Hall of Fame in 2008, Marvin was like "You have GOT to be #@&*CSBS(*&F KIDDING me." It was pretty much the way that Bob Gibson would have reacted if the Hall of Fame had selected Ray Sadecki and not selected him. Ray Sadecki is maybe too good there; maybe more like Al Jackson, or Barney Schultz. Jay Hook. He was personally offended. It was not difficult to understand why.


Well, two years after Marvin supposedly stopped caring, he accused, erroneously, both Jim Palmer and Tom Verducci of keeping him from getting elected through the blogger, Murray Chass. Miller wasn't entirely consistent on the subject.
   24. John DiFool2 Posted: December 08, 2019 at 11:59 PM (#5906952)
but having voters choosing between a labor pioneer and star players seems kind of ...... weird.


Indeed. They need to have a non-player election every 5 years, incl. umps. Doug Harvey, for starters. To have them take votes away from players doesn't seem right.
   25. eric Posted: December 09, 2019 at 12:21 AM (#5906955)
This year's committee vote is definitely better than last year's, which was so bad people don't even complain much about Lee Smith having gone in. This year, the committee correctly voted in two definites, and will just need one more (Sweet Lou), at least from that list. That is a dramatic improvement. I feel much, much better about the HOF than I did at about this time last year.
   26. Perry Posted: December 09, 2019 at 12:32 AM (#5906956)
Simmons tonight :

“I tell people I’ve lived a charmed life. My whole life has been charmed. Since I was a little boy, I wanted to be a major league baseball player, just like millions and millions of other people. I got to do all that. So, in the past years, when I was not elected to the Hall of Fame, I couldn’t in good conscience walk around with a chip on my shoulder.

“If I had spent one second walking around grieving or walking around angry, I’d have been ashamed of myself. My life has been way too good.”


He also said how honored he was to go in with Miller, said that Miller was a great man and one of the most important people in his life.
   27. Moeball Posted: December 09, 2019 at 02:00 AM (#5906957)
Who was on the Committee? I think Brett and Carew were, and they probably voted for Lou. That so many didn't shows that there are still a lot of people with the power to vote but who know absolutely effing NOTHING about baseball. They really honestly believe Baines was a better player than Whitaker, which is beyond idiotic. And Bobby Grich can't even get on the damned ballot? These morons are no smarter than the Frankie Frisch crew.
   28. Jaack Posted: December 09, 2019 at 02:48 AM (#5906959)
Who was on the Committee? I think Brett and Carew were, and they probably voted for Lou. That so many didn't shows that there are still a lot of people with the power to vote but who know absolutely effing NOTHING about baseball. They really honestly believe Baines was a better player than Whitaker, which is beyond idiotic. And Bobby Grich can't even get on the damned ballot? These morons are no smarter than the Frankie Frisch crew.


Brett and Carew were on the committee. The other players were Ozzie Smith, Dennis Eckersley, Robin Yount, and Eddie Murray.

The 6 front office people were Doug Melvin, Sandy Alderson, Walt Jocketty, Dave Dombrowski, Terry Ryan, and David Glass. Alderson and Dombrowski are certainly up to date with player evaluation, and I imagine Melvin and Jocketty are at least familiar with the concepts. Ryan and Glass.... probably not the type of guys who'd be voting for Whitaker.

The four media people were Bill Center, Jack O'Donnell, Steve Hirdt, and Tracy Ringolsby. Ringolsby voted for Scott Rolen last year - a good sign he'd support Whitaker as their cases have similarities. Bill Center had votes for Fred McGriff and Omar Vizquel, but also Larry Walker, so he's not a lost cause. Steve Hirdt is and Elias guy, which doesn't give me any confidence. I haven't been able to find much in terms of O'Connell's opinions of players, but from what I have seen from his comments on the Hall of Fame process, I would guess he's fairly old school.

---
If we had last year's committee, I would guess Whitaker wold have gotten 3 or fewer votes. The executives were all further removed from the game - the only one who had been dealing with the day-to-day front office stuff recentry was Al Aliva. The media people were underwhelming - Tim Kurkjian, Claire Smith, and Steve Hirdt. It's pretry obvious that La Russa and Reisendorf were the main voices in the room and there wasn't a strong voice of opposition.

The best bet to get quality Hall of Famers from the VCs is to get more modern executives and decent media people in the room and not have the Joe Morgan/Tony La Russa types who will dominate the floor.
   29. bachslunch Posted: December 09, 2019 at 04:25 AM (#5906963)
Congratulations to Marvin Miller and Ted Simmons. Both very deserving.

I guess I’m not surprised Lou Whitaker only got 6 votes. Though given how Bobby Grich has done, maybe that’s better than expected. Hopefully the right committee for him comes up later on. Glad to see Dwight Evans got 8 votes as well.

Unfortunate to see Dave Parker get one more vote than Whitaker as well as Steve Garvey getting the same number of votes. At least they didn’t make it in.
   30. . Posted: December 09, 2019 at 06:27 AM (#5906964)
Marvin did battle for many years with Bowie Kuhn, and Miller won EVERY skirmish, without exception, and won the war.


It's just amazing how wrong this is. (*) Miller had an open canvas after the Seitz arbitration and still gave the owners ten-ish years of team control including six (!) of major league control. And as to winning the "war," all we need to do is look at the tepid free agent market and the (relative) underpayment of young stars in the contemporary marketplace.

The Committee got Miller & Simmons right, but missing on Whitaker continues to perplex many, myself included. Perhaps next time.


It's not perplexing at all -- they aren't going to elect players with high-ish WARs when that figure is primarily the result of extranormal walks. Posterity has not, and essentially will not, value those walks at their immediate saber value. That's a good thing. Simmons didn't get reassessed because of walks -- he didn't really even have an extranormal amount -- he got reassessed because he was a catcher.

(*) It's one of those things Bill James got into his head in like 1982 (or earlier) and it never left.
   31. "RMc", the superbatsman Posted: December 09, 2019 at 07:55 AM (#5906971)
Miller is in, and Whitaker isn't? What a joke.
   32. asinwreck Posted: December 09, 2019 at 08:12 AM (#5906972)
It will be fascinating to see who gets the honor of giving his speech.

I am curious if Ted Simmons will feature Miller heavily in his own speech. His comment to MLB Network about the influence Miller has has on his life and his family was moving.
   33. Hysterical & Useless Posted: December 09, 2019 at 08:23 AM (#5906973)
Thanks to The Duke (#20) and Perry (#26) for the Simmons quotes. He just became one of my favorite MLB people. (I'm a sucker for humility.)
   34. Slivers of Maranville descends into chaos (SdeB) Posted: December 09, 2019 at 08:28 AM (#5906975)
And as to winning the "war," all we need to do is look at the tepid free agent market and the (relative) underpayment of young stars in the contemporary marketplace.


Does "win the war" have to mean total victory only? Did Prussia not win the Seven Years War?
   35. Rennie's Tenet Posted: December 09, 2019 at 08:33 AM (#5906976)
This committee elected two last time. The top two also-rans we're Miller and Simmons, and they were elected this year. Evans and Parker are now the top two also-rans, with Garvey and Whitaker right behind.
   36. Rennie's Tenet Posted: December 09, 2019 at 08:43 AM (#5906978)
So next year the two old timers committees vote for 2021 induction, then the Baines group votes for 2022 and this group comes back for 2023?
   37. Carl Goetz Posted: December 09, 2019 at 09:30 AM (#5906989)
"Yes, exactly. Inducting his corpse against his frequently and clearly stated wishes is the HoF’s final F U to Marvin Miller. Disgraceful."
Who cares what his wishes were? Its not the Hall of Marvin Miller. The Hall of Fame is about the fans and preserving baseball history. Miller belonged in. Period. And regardless of his personal wishes.
   38. The Duke Posted: December 09, 2019 at 09:32 AM (#5906991)
There’s a lot of players who could still cycle through this modern era ballot. Hernandez, Grich, Reggie Smith, nettles, staub, Bando, al Oliver. Many of them have good cases as well.

I’d like to see Munson come back on the next ballot along with Evans, Whitaker, Parker and Garvey. I just don’t think Murphy, Tommy John, Dan Mattingly ever make it. They and Tiant and Concepcion have had chances and got no traction.

I personally think Grich should go in and Hernandez and Reggie Smith have a strong case along with all the holdovers with six-plus votes
   39. Rally Posted: December 09, 2019 at 09:40 AM (#5906994)
Anybody know where to find a history of reported VC votes? Or at least ballot history? I couldn't find one on the HOF site. I'm kind of curious as to how many times Steve Garvey has been on the ballot. Seems like a lot. The danger is that they keep running him out there until one year he winds up with LaSorda on the voting panel and he pulls a Reinsdorf/LaRussa and somehow convinces enough people to vote Garvey just to shut Tommy up.

I would like to see other players given consideration instead of running the same group out there every time that era comes up, with the only way players move off is if they get voted in.
   40. Mellow Mouse, Benevolent Space Tyrant Posted: December 09, 2019 at 09:43 AM (#5906995)
It sounds bad, but yeah Marvin Miller's opinions on whether or not he wants to be in the Hall is irrelevant. And of course he belongs in the Hall.
   41. Kiko Sakata Posted: December 09, 2019 at 09:49 AM (#5906998)
Anybody know where to find a history of reported VC votes? Or at least ballot history? I couldn't find one on the HOF site. I'm kind of curious as to how many times Steve Garvey has been on the ballot. Seems like a lot. The danger is that they keep running him out there until one year he winds up with LaSorda on the voting panel and he pulls a Reinsdorf/LaRussa and somehow convinces enough people to vote Garvey just to shut Tommy up.

I would like to see other players given consideration instead of running the same group out there every time that era comes up, with the only way players move off is if they get voted in.


Graham Womack put something together. Here's a Tweet of his linking to the document.
   42. Rally Posted: December 09, 2019 at 10:04 AM (#5907008)
Awesome, thank you
   43. Howie Menckel Posted: December 09, 2019 at 10:11 AM (#5907010)
I haven't been able to find much in terms of O'Connell's opinions of players, but from what I have seen from his comments on the Hall of Fame process, I would guess he's fairly old school.

yes. I used to work with Jack. he's mostly retired now. I don't picture him going to WAR with anyone in the discussion process, let's put it that way.
   44. Zonk didn't order a hit on an ambassador Posted: December 09, 2019 at 10:17 AM (#5907013)
The danger is that they keep running him out there until one year he winds up with LaSorda on the voting panel and he pulls a Reinsdorf/LaRussa and somehow convinces enough people to vote Garvey just to shut Tommy up.


5-10 years ago, that would have been a fear to me too... but Tommy is 94 and well, let's just say I'm not comfortable with the 10 dogs bit anymore. The twilight comes for all of us... if we're lucky.
   45. Hysterical & Useless Posted: December 09, 2019 at 10:24 AM (#5907015)
The twilight comes for all of us... if we're lucky

The only thing worse than being old is never having the chance to get there.
   46. alilisd Posted: December 09, 2019 at 10:28 AM (#5907016)
24: Pretty sure Doug Harvey is already in. But the inclusion of non players with players on a ballot is beyond weird, it’s plain stupid!
   47. The Duke Posted: December 09, 2019 at 11:35 AM (#5907047)
39. If you go to jay Jaffe’s intro to the modern era ballot on fangraphs he has a great table of the 30+ candidates from the modern era, which ballots they appeared on, and the votes received. There is still a lot of names to mine from that era. I would say there are 5-7 more that will ultimately get in. Evans, Whitaker, Grich. Would lead the pack
   48. jmurph Posted: December 09, 2019 at 12:10 PM (#5907068)
It sounds bad, but yeah Marvin Miller's opinions on whether or not he wants to be in the Hall is irrelevant.

Let me 5th or 6th this sentiment. Many hundreds or thousands of players would actually like to be in the Hall; their feelings are similarly and correctly ignored.
   49. DanG Posted: December 09, 2019 at 12:24 PM (#5907072)
From a poll I ran a couple years ago, these are now the top 25 player candidates from the Modern Baseball era:

Lou Whitaker HOM
Bobby Grich HOM
Dwight Evans HOM
Keith Hernandez HOM
Luis Tiant
Reggie Smith HOM
Thurman Munson
Graig Nettles HOM
Bobby Bonds
Dave Stieb HOM
Willie Randolph HOM
Tommy John
Darrell Evans HOM
Dale Murphy
Sal Bando
Rick Reuschel HOM
Ron Guidry
Buddy Bell
Don Mattingly
Bert Campaneris
Fred Lynn
Dave Concepcion
Dave Parker
Wilbur Wood
Cesar Cedeno
   50. Rusty Priske Posted: December 09, 2019 at 12:56 PM (#5907100)
I strongly disagreed with those who said Miller should not be selected because of his wish to stay out.

Having said that, the Hall should respect if his family chooses to decline the offer. They should not be able to profit off his likeness against the wishes of his heirs.
   51. Rally Posted: December 09, 2019 at 01:01 PM (#5907104)
The rest of the field (Tommy John, Don Mattingly, Thurman Munson, and Dale Murphy) received three votes or fewer each.


Voters were mostly, and possibly completely, filling out their ballots.

If each of these 4 received zero votes, then there was an average of 3.25 votes per ballot. If each of them got 3, that means every ballot space was used. Certainly somewhere in between.
   52. Zonk didn't order a hit on an ambassador Posted: December 09, 2019 at 01:04 PM (#5907105)
To be fair, I highly doubt any cooperstown trips are being planned around the Marvin Miller plaque.... Maybe NELA might sponsor an outing!
   53. What did Billy Ripken have against ElRoy Face? Posted: December 09, 2019 at 01:14 PM (#5907114)
They should not be able to profit off his likeness against the wishes of his heirs.
Legally, his heirs would have no case. Miller died in New York, which, unlike most states, does not acknowledge a posthumous, descendible right of publicity with regard to name, likeness, etc.
   54. DL from MN Posted: December 09, 2019 at 01:36 PM (#5907124)
Lou Whitaker HOM
Bobby Grich HOM
Dwight Evans HOM


Those are the 3 guys that would actually raise the average quality of player. The rest are fine players but below average hall of famers.

BTW - Tiant is pretty certain to be elected HoM shortly.
   55. Rusty Priske Posted: December 09, 2019 at 03:09 PM (#5907174)
Legally, his heirs would have no case.


There is more to 'should or should not' than what is legal.

They should honour his wishes.
   56. What did Billy Ripken have against ElRoy Face? Posted: December 09, 2019 at 03:14 PM (#5907179)
There is more to 'should or should not' than what is legal.
No disagreement there - I was just making that point, not asserting it as the endpoint of the matter. I'm not sure where I come down on the overall issue.
   57. Mike A Posted: December 09, 2019 at 04:04 PM (#5907219)
I'm trying to figure out why Parker and Garvey got more support than Dale Murphy? Even beyond the 'character' HoF clause, Murphy is ahead of both in fWAR and bWAR. Murph seemed roughly as famous as the other two, and also tended to tick the 'future HoF' box more while he was playing...at least from what I can remember, that was a while ago.

Granted, Murphy doesn't really deserve the HoF based on the stats. But deep down I was hoping Dale would get in at some point, and now it looks like the longest of long shots. And if Garvey gets in over Dale, that would annoy me.
   58. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: December 09, 2019 at 04:09 PM (#5907224)
And if Garvey gets in over Dale, that would annoy me.

Garvey is near Bainesian in his lack of qualifications, so yeah. I'd say the same thing about Munson or even Mattingly.
   59. The Duke Posted: December 09, 2019 at 04:57 PM (#5907254)
49. I am good with everyone on that list between Whitaker and nettles inclusive. It’s actually a pretty bright line for me. That’s eight more players from that era.

   60. yest Posted: December 09, 2019 at 05:44 PM (#5907270)
Happy that Simmons got in, but Marvin Miller who gave us strikes, high ticket prices, and a millionaires Union that led to the pad mess?

That Miller changed baseball is indisputable, but why should we the fans care that the .01% now became the .001%

If their looking for someone who had the most influence on the game Philo Farnsworth would have been a better pick, he is arguably the most important person in baseball history, and his improvement as far as baseball is concerned is positive.
   61. Booey Posted: December 09, 2019 at 06:27 PM (#5907286)
#57 - It's not hard to see why old school types might prefer Parker over Murphy.

Parker - 2712 hits, .290 avg, 339 HR, 1493 rbi

Murphy - 2111 hits, .265 avg, 398 HR, 1266 rbi

Murphy has the edge in homers, but Parker beats him easily in the other 3 categories traditionalists care most about. In fact, Parker's hits and rbi's both rank amongst the highest for non hall of famers, and as we saw with Baines, those are the types of selling points that can get undeserving players into the conversation.
   62. bjhanke Posted: December 09, 2019 at 07:56 PM (#5907304)
From comment #30 - It's just amazing how wrong this is. (*) Miller had an open canvas after the Seitz arbitration and still gave the owners ten-ish years of team control including six (!) of major league control. And as to winning the "war," all we need to do is look at the tepid free agent market and the (relative) underpayment of young stars in the contemporary marketplace.

Um. No. Marvin writes about this in his biography. He deliberately did not try to free agent everybody all at once. He knew that would flood the market and cause the whole thing to collapse. He fought for, and won, a system where there are never catastrophically huge numbers of free agents, but there were enough to actually change the salary structure of the business. The original comment about Marvin winning is correct. He got just what he thought the players needed, and his analysis of that was very accurate. - Brock Hanke
   63. caspian88 Posted: December 09, 2019 at 07:57 PM (#5907305)
I feel like trying to read the tea leaves on Veterans Committee selections is a bit like predicting the outcome of a national election by selecting one precinct at random and looking at the results. The electorate is so small, and shifts with every ballot, so I think it's largely pointless to go too in-depth about what the outcome means.
   64. Carl Goetz Posted: December 10, 2019 at 01:44 PM (#5907487)
#60 yest:
So you're ok with players being tied to teams in perpetuity? Why is it you'd rather have owners making all the money rather than players? Strikes and lockouts suck, but sometimes there is a greater good involved.
   65. Carl Goetz Posted: December 10, 2019 at 01:48 PM (#5907489)
#58 snapper:
I agree on the others, but Munson is out of place here. He's 12th all time in catcher JAWs and only slightly below the average HOF catcher in career/peak WAR and Jaws. An catcher doesn't have nearly as many egregious selections as other positions to bring the average down. You'd have to be a pretty small hall guy to want Munson out.
   66. yest Posted: December 11, 2019 at 09:25 PM (#5907975)
So you're ok with players being tied to teams in perpetuity?


So your ok with teams developing young talent and loosing it because of free agency?




Why is it you'd rather have owners making all the money rather than players?

1. The owners are still raking it in, the fans are the ones paying. (Oversimplification but still true)
2. I don’t care who gets rich, this is not the millionaires beat billionaires hall of fame, as far as baseball is concerned it’s irrelevant who gets the money.
3. The owners also are the only ones who can loose a fortune, thus economically justifying them getting a higher percentage.

Strikes and lockouts suck, but sometimes there is a greater good involved.

Even miller’s changes were a great moral goal (which I find ludicrous, neither side is the righteous side) from a baseball perspective he still hurt the game. From a baseball only perspective strikes are worth what higher ticket prices so the rich can become super rich and the super super super rich only become super rich?


The way people talk about Miller you think he was representing truly disadvantaged. Baseball is not sweatshops and earning way more than the average American is not suffering.
   67. ERROR---Jolly Old St. Nick Posted: December 11, 2019 at 10:58 PM (#5907989)
So your ok with teams developing young talent and loosing it because of free agency?

That's made up for by getting them for the first part of their prime years at way below market rates. How much would an Aaron Judge have gotten if he'd been granted free agency after 2017? How much would Juan Soto get today?

1. The owners are still raking it in, the fans are the ones paying. (Oversimplification but still true)


That's only partially the case. It's true that good seats for high demand games are insanely overpriced (compared to 30 or 40 years ago) for anyone but those with huge amounts of discretionary income, but that's more than made up for by the dirt cheap (60 cents a day) availability of every game on the schedule on HDTV, or even less if you can stand watching games on a computer or a phone. Back when you could get into Fenway for a $2.00 bleacher seat or a $6.00 box seat, you could only get to see a limited number of games on a crappy analog TV, and if you wanted to watch any out-of-town games you were out of luck.

3. The owners also are the only ones who can loose a fortune, thus economically justifying them getting a higher percentage.

No owners are losing money when they sell their team, and very few are even losing money on a year-by-year basis.

Even miller’s changes were a great moral goal (which I find ludicrous, neither side is the righteous side) from a baseball perspective he still hurt the game.

BS. Without free agency much of today's talent wouldn't have been sufficiently incentivized to pursue the game, not unless every other field of endeavor had also kept playing by the old rules of talent compensation. Baseball isn't even the highest salaried team sport today; the top salaries for soccer and basketball easily exceed baseball's.

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