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Monday, April 12, 2021

Minnesota Twins, Timberwolves postpone games in wake of police shooting of Daunte Wright

The Minnesota Twins and Minnesota Timberwolves postponed games on Monday following the police shooting of Daunte Wright on Sunday night.

“Out of respect for the tragic events that occurred yesterday in Brooklyn Center, and following the additional details in this evolving situation, the Minnesota Twins have decided it is in the best interest of our fans, staff, players and community to not play today’s game” the Twins said in a statement.

The Twins were slated to play the Boston Red Sox. The Timberwolves were scheduled to play the Brooklyn Nets.

The decision to postpone the game was made by the Twins after consulting Major League Baseball, in addition to local and state officials.

Wright, a 20-year-old Black man, died Sunday after a police officer shot him in the suburb of Brooklyn Center during a traffic stop. The Brooklyn Center police chief said the shooting was accidental, as the officer involved intended to fire a stun gun and not a handgun during a struggle with Wright. Police were trying to arrest him on an outstanding warrant.

RoyalsRetro (AG#1F) Posted: April 12, 2021 at 03:56 PM | 310 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
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   1. Jose Is An Absurd Balladeer Posted: April 12, 2021 at 04:42 PM (#6013047)
The Red Sox beat guys seem to think there is a chance the series will be moved to Boston. Nothing definite but it is being discussed (insert Manfred joke here).
   2. Starring Bradley Scotchman as RMc Posted: April 12, 2021 at 04:51 PM (#6013048)
shot him in the suburb

Ouch.

there is a chance the series will be moved to Boston

A town synonymous with racial harmony.
   3. reech Posted: April 12, 2021 at 05:17 PM (#6013053)
why are ANY of the teams playing?
   4. winnipegwhip Posted: April 12, 2021 at 06:24 PM (#6013068)
I think calling Brooklyn Centre a suburb in the Twin Cities is akin to calling Fordham a suburb of NYC.
   5. JimMusComp likes Billy Eppler.... Posted: April 12, 2021 at 06:39 PM (#6013073)
Exactly, #3.

They should all be boycotting. Screw this. There are members of the police in the US that are drunk on power - and this, coupled with the Virginia army Lt. traffic stop just brings it all to the front again.

I'm not willing to say ACAB, but damn if it isn't getting harder to maintain that POV.
   6. winnipegwhip Posted: April 12, 2021 at 06:43 PM (#6013075)
Between this and the developing school shooting in Tennessee I agree with #3 as well.
   7. catseyepub Posted: April 12, 2021 at 06:51 PM (#6013077)
And teams should not play any time a black person is killed by another black person.
   8. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: April 12, 2021 at 07:08 PM (#6013080)
Between this and the developing school shooting in Tennessee I agree with #3 as well.

Sounds like this was not a "school shooting". Student reported with a gun, officers approached him and student opened fire. Seems like there has also been significant gang activity in that area.

https://myfox8.com/news/multiple-people-shot-including-officer-at-knoxville-tn-high-school/
   9. salvomania Posted: April 12, 2021 at 07:10 PM (#6013081)
And teams should not play any time a black person is killed by another black person.

While that's always tragic, I think what people are upset about here is the larger issue of states' systemic violence by its public servants against a particular group of people.
   10. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: April 12, 2021 at 07:15 PM (#6013083)
While that's always tragic, I think what people are upset about here is the larger issue of states' systemic violence by its public servants against a particular group of people.

The issue is, or should be, excessive police force in general. Many studies have been published showing blacks are no more likely, and may actually be less likely, to be shot by police in a similar situation. Forcibly resisting arrest has always been pretty likely to get you shot, regardless of race.
   11. Rough Carrigan Posted: April 12, 2021 at 07:16 PM (#6013084)
Do the statistics of shootings of blacks by police per interactions with the police compared to the frequency of shootings of other demographics in their interactions with the police support a contention of systemic violence against that particular group of people?
   12. catseyepub Posted: April 12, 2021 at 07:18 PM (#6013085)
#9...Possibly, but it may just be that anger only goes as far as white killing a black, rare as that is, as opposed to memb
ers of ones own race killing on
e another. See Aaron Hicks
.
   13. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: April 12, 2021 at 07:22 PM (#6013086)
Possibly, but it may just be that anger only goes as far as white killing a black

Do we even know if the female officer that fired the shot is white or black, or something else?
   14. salvomania Posted: April 12, 2021 at 07:31 PM (#6013087)
Do the statistics of shootings of blacks by police per interactions with the police

Just being black is likely to result in more interactions, so even a "per incident" number is skewed due to more black folks being stopped in the first place, per capita.
   15. Misirlou cut his hair and moved to Rome Posted: April 12, 2021 at 07:40 PM (#6013088)
The issue is, or should be, excessive police force in general. Many studies have been published showing blacks are no more likely, and may actually be less likely, to be shot by police in a similar situation. Forcibly resisting arrest has always been pretty likely to get you shot, regardless of race.


The bigger issue is that blacks are far more likely to have interactions with the police for bogus, made up reasons, than white people. And the more interactions with the police, the more people get hurt or killed. This guy was pulled over because he had an air freshener hanging from his rear view mirror. Michael Brown was hassled for walking in the street in a residential neighborhood. Eric Garner for selling "loosies".
   16. salvomania Posted: April 12, 2021 at 07:40 PM (#6013089)
#9...Possibly, but it may just be that anger only goes as far as white killing a black, rare as that is, as opposed to memb
ers of ones own race killing on
e another. See Aaron Hicks

Again, I think it's about the inequity in the structure.

It's about cops killing black people. Even if all the cops doing the killingwere black, in this case it would still be about cops---the state---killing black people.

Nobody is saying "other types" of crime or killings aren't also terrible. But when you keep seeing white people doing outrageous, dangerous things, in the presence of cops, and not being killed---and sometimes even being more or less winked at---and then black people doing less than that and being killed by the cops, it illuminates an incredible double standard, one that I, as I white person, benefit from personally.

I've been pulled over with booze in the car, with weed in the car, I've twice had police officers pull their guns on me--strangely, in neither case was I fearful---and I'm still around to talk about it. I'm not sure that would be the case if I were black, and THAT is what has people upset.
   17. catseyepub Posted: April 12, 2021 at 07:50 PM (#6013090)
When you were pulled over, did you comply with the officers?
Did you flee??
Are you insinuating that Black people who get pulled over for the same infractions of a white person are more likely to die when complying with the officers? Do you think officers, white, black or other, wake up in the morning and decide to kill black people? You think they want that hassle, the worry and all that comes with pulling out a gun and firing??
   18. Misirlou cut his hair and moved to Rome Posted: April 12, 2021 at 07:55 PM (#6013091)
Are you insinuating that Black people who get pulled over for the same infractions of a white person are more likely to die when complying with the officers?


Philando Castillo.

But again, black people get pulled over for "infractions" that few if any white people are pulled over for.
   19. Misirlou cut his hair and moved to Rome Posted: April 12, 2021 at 07:58 PM (#6013092)
You think they want that hassle, the worry and all that comes with pulling out a gun and firing??


No. But why do they want the hassle of pulling a guy over for having an air freshener hanging from his rear view mirror? or hassle a couple of kids walking in the street of a residential neighborhood? Address THAT motivation and the unnecessary deaths from unnecessary interactions with the police will drop.
   20. catseyepub Posted: April 12, 2021 at 08:08 PM (#6013095)
#19 expired registration
Routine traffic stop.
Attempted to escape.
Not going to dissect case by case, but facts are important.
   21. Adam Starblind Posted: April 12, 2021 at 08:14 PM (#6013096)
Why engage?
   22. Misirlou cut his hair and moved to Rome Posted: April 12, 2021 at 08:20 PM (#6013097)
#19 expired registration


I have read both explanations. And apparently is was both. Many municipalities have ceased having police do traffic stops for trivial infractions, and just issue a ticket by mail. I think that's a wonderful idea. The fewer interactions the police have with citizens over trivial offenses, the better.
   23. catseyepub Posted: April 12, 2021 at 08:29 PM (#6013099)
Agreed, red light cameras have lessened the need for trivial offences. However, complicity when pulled over seems foreign to many and unfortunately that will lead to negative outcomes.
   24. "bothsidesism" word 57i66135 Posted: April 12, 2021 at 08:30 PM (#6013100)
perhaps there’s another reason why Black male offenders receive sentences that are, on average, 19.1 percent longer than white male offenders who commit the same crimes and have the same criminal history, according to the United States Sentencing Commission. Explain why white people use illegal drugs, possess illegal narcotics and sell illegal substances at higher rates than Black people but Black people are six-and-a-half times more likely to be arrested and convicted for drugs. The Stanford Open Policing Project—the largest police stop project that ever existed—found that Black people are 2.5 times more likely to be stopped and 4 times more likely to be searched than white drivers even though white drivers were more likely to have contraband.

Police are twice as likely to use force on Black people versus white suspects, according to a 2015 report from the Bureau of Justice Statistics. Black defendants get charged with harsher crimes, receive higher bail and are offered fewer plea deals according to Harvard researchers...and researchers in Wisconsin...and Philadelphia...and Maryland.
   25. Misirlou cut his hair and moved to Rome Posted: April 12, 2021 at 08:31 PM (#6013101)
Philando Castillo complied and got shot for his efforts.
   26. "bothsidesism" word 57i66135 Posted: April 12, 2021 at 08:38 PM (#6013102)
Philando Castillo complied and got shot for his efforts.
he should have watched the video.
   27. salvomania Posted: April 12, 2021 at 08:52 PM (#6013106)
Did you flee??

The first time a cop pulled a gun on me, yes, that's exactly what happened. I was in a car with three or four other (white) guys, the car having non-matching front and back license plates, neither of which belonged to the car and both of which were expired, and there was a velvet pouch of Crown Royal in the glovebox. We were ultimately boxed in by two squad cars, after which officers leapt from their vehicles with one shouting "Outta the car, motherf*ckers!" while pointing a gun at us.

When ultimately stopped, we were careening at an unsafe speed down the switchbacking exit ramps of a parking structure, with one police car behind us and the other coming up the wrong way in front of us. Yes, we complied to the officer's request, but a different, darker crew might not have gotten the chance.
   28. Misirlou cut his hair and moved to Rome Posted: April 12, 2021 at 08:57 PM (#6013107)
he should have watched the video.


That would have gotten him maced at best. Shot and killed at worst.
   29. Froot Loops Posted: April 12, 2021 at 09:06 PM (#6013109)
#19 expired registration
Routine traffic stop.
Attempted to escape.
Not going to dissect case by case, but facts are important.


I'll never understand why some people want government officials to have so much power over us, to the point where they get to decided whether we live or die.

Me, I'm for more limited government.
   30. Misirlou cut his hair and moved to Rome Posted: April 12, 2021 at 09:09 PM (#6013110)
I'll never understand why some people want government officials to have so much power over us, to the point where they get to decided whether we live or die.


They don't. They want them to have power over them.

To be clear, I am not impugning catseye here.
   31. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: April 12, 2021 at 09:18 PM (#6013113)
Do we know what the arrest warrant was for yet? The cops must have, eight? That will go a long way towards deciding if this was egregious or simply unfortunate. Resisting arrest, and trying to get back in your car is going to make most cops think you're going for a gun, especially if you're wanted for something violent.
   32. Ron J Posted: April 12, 2021 at 09:22 PM (#6013115)
Seems the official explanation is, "oops"

The officer claims he intended to use his taser but pulled the wrong weapon.
   33. Misirlou cut his hair and moved to Rome Posted: April 12, 2021 at 09:22 PM (#6013116)
From the NYT:

Court records indicate that a judge issued a warrant for Mr. Wright earlier this month after he missed a court appearance. He was facing two misdemeanor charges after the Minneapolis police said he had carried a pistol without a permit and had run from officers last June.
   34. Mayor Blomberg Posted: April 12, 2021 at 09:23 PM (#6013117)
Oscar grant
Eric Harris
Daunte Wright

Off the top of my head, 3 victims of LEOs who cried, Oops that wasn't a taser. None of them was in anything like a life-or-death situation.

Do we even know if the female officer that fired the shot is white or black, or something else?

She is white, first cop in contact is black.

* and it's Castile, not Castillo
   35. Brian C Posted: April 12, 2021 at 09:23 PM (#6013118)
Michael Brown was hassled for walking in the street in a residential neighborhood.

Uh, that's an extremely ... edited account of why Brown was "hassled".
   36. salvomania Posted: April 12, 2021 at 09:24 PM (#6013119)
The officer claims he intended to use his taser but pulled the wrong weapon.

"She"
   37. Misirlou cut his hair and moved to Rome Posted: April 12, 2021 at 09:24 PM (#6013120)
Oscar grant
Eric Harris
Daunte Wright


Off the top of my head, 3 victims of LEOs who cried, Oops that wasn't a taser. None of them was in anything like a life-or-death situation.


Now do all the ones who died because the officer thought their cell phone was a gun.
   38. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: April 12, 2021 at 09:26 PM (#6013121)
Court records indicate that a judge issued a warrant for Mr. Wright earlier this month after he missed a court appearance. He was facing two misdemeanor charges after the Minneapolis police said he had carried a pistol without a permit and had run from officers last June.


Well, that would explain why the cops were freaked out when he tried to get back in the car. They thought he had a gun.
   39. Misirlou cut his hair and moved to Rome Posted: April 12, 2021 at 09:31 PM (#6013123)
So NOW owning a gun is a problem?
   40. Mayor Blomberg Posted: April 12, 2021 at 09:31 PM (#6013124)
Sounds like this was not a "school shooting". Student reported with a gun, officers approached him and student opened fire. Seems like there has also been significant gang activity in that area.


Report came in of a possible shooter in a school. I mean, we could have let it play out to be sure, but no. And obviously we need more good students with guns.
   41. Mayor Blomberg Posted: April 12, 2021 at 09:32 PM (#6013125)
So NOW owning a gun is a problem?

Sir, step out of the car and take a paper-bag test. Plastic bag, rather. You know the kind.
   42. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: April 12, 2021 at 09:32 PM (#6013126)
It shocked me that the Philando Castile case didn't get more attention. That's the clearest case of police murder I think I've seen. It's also a case I thought the right would get behind, since Castile was a licensed gun owner.
   43. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: April 12, 2021 at 09:36 PM (#6013127)
So NOW owning a gun is a problem?

Carrying one without a permit (where one is required) is, and always has been a problem.

Philando Castile was murdered, but that's a different story. He was licensed, correctly informed the cop he was carrying, and didn't resist.

If you're wanted on a concealed weapons charge, resist arrest, and try to get into your vehicle, where you may have a gun, it's not surprising that cops react badly.
   44. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: April 12, 2021 at 09:36 PM (#6013128)
Report came in of a possible shooter in a school. I mean, we could have let it play out to be sure, but no. And obviously we need more good students with guns.

And I was simply updating you on additional facts that had emerged.
   45. Mayor Blomberg Posted: April 12, 2021 at 09:37 PM (#6013129)
Good that you're still capable of shock, snapper.
   46. Misirlou cut his hair and moved to Rome Posted: April 12, 2021 at 09:37 PM (#6013130)
It shocked me that the Philando Castile case didn't get more attention. That's the clearest case of police murder I think I've seen. It's also a case I thought the right would get behind, since Castile was a licensed gun owner.


That or Tamir Rice.
   47. Lowry Seasoning Salt Posted: April 12, 2021 at 09:44 PM (#6013132)
It's also a case I thought the right would get behind, since Castile was a licensed gun owner.


There was nothing noteworthy to gain by the right getting behind that case. I don't say that critically of the right as a general group—that's the behavior most everyone demonstrates in our culture.
   48. Shohei Brotani (formerly LA Hombre) Posted: April 12, 2021 at 09:46 PM (#6013133)
Are you insinuating that Black people who get pulled over for the same infractions of a white person are more likely to die when complying with the officers?
Black and Latino defendants in Massachusetts are more likely than white defendants to be locked up for drug and weapons offenses and get longer sentences than white people sent to prison for similar crimes, researchers at Harvard Law School said in a report released Wednesday.

In a yearslong study sought by the chief justice of Massachusetts' highest court, Harvard researchers found significant racial disparities in the handling of weapons and drug cases, crimes they noted "carry longstanding racialized stigmas." The disparities remain even "after controlling for charge severity and additional factors," according to the report from the law school's Criminal Justice Policy Program.
Link to the study is here.
   49. baxter Posted: April 12, 2021 at 11:57 PM (#6013151)
17: What do you mean by this: "Do you think officers, white, black or other, wake up in the morning and decide to kill black people?"

By that, what is the point? How is it germane to the issue? If you have some legal training, either as an attorney, or peripherally, perhaps, you would know, and I think you are smart enough that you do know, that if the shooter felt that way (whether or not the shooter were a peace officer), the shooter would have a committed a willful, deliberate and premeditated murder, the highest level (at least in CA; I don't know about MN). While some courts have held that premeditation can take place in a matter of seconds, I can't say whether that existed here. Nor should I; that's what courts are for.

29: I have not heard that expressed often, equating big government with these tragic situations. Not many people own businesses (to complain of big government regulation). But, this is where the rubber meets the road as far as citizens interacting with the police.

I can see the justifications proffered here, as listed above. Indeed attorney's may use them in defending the shooter (although if indeed the shooter said she thought she was reaching for her taser, it seems tantamount to a concession of an involuntary manslaughter, which is what Johannes Mescherle sp? was convicted of in the Oscar Grant shooting).

Police have a great deal of weaponry; they are human beings who on occasion face stressful situations, some highly stressful. Or, even if not highly stressful, the stress adds up. Fight or flight kicks in.

Consider the police contact in Hollywood CA recently; police are looking for a domestic violence suspect; they see a man taking out the trash; they stop him; he is uncooperative. Ultimately the man and his girlfriend are wrestled to the ground; thankfully not shot. The man is black; the reported suspect was white.

Consider LA county sheriffs called to a home in Cudahy (small city in LA county); mentally disabled deaf young man is having a mental health episode; cannot control him. Ultimately, sheriffs deputies shoot him to death b/c he was trying take their gun (proffered justification).

Law enforcement is asked to do too much. In the Wright case, were they nominally tax collectors, willing to write a ticket for a minor violation (a revenue raiser) and perhaps a precursor to an additional investigation.

One need ask what is the utility of the police conduct in the first instance.





   50. Alex meets the threshold for granular review Posted: April 13, 2021 at 12:18 AM (#6013153)
I wouldn't wipe my ass with a cop. It's not an exaggeration to say that they are no better than a gang, and far more destructive and far more insulated from consequences for their rotten-to-the-core modus operandi than any other gang in existence. #### every single one of them, and #### the pathetic bootlickers in this thread.
   51. baxter Posted: April 13, 2021 at 12:59 AM (#6013154)
50 I hear you; you may want to see the system change.

It is good to have passion. Consider channeling it into something constructive.

   52. Slivers of Maranville descends into chaos (SdeB) Posted: April 13, 2021 at 07:33 AM (#6013163)
If you're wanted on a concealed weapons charge, resist arrest, and try to get into your vehicle, where you may have a gun, it's not surprising that cops react badly.


It should be surprising. Cops shouldn't react badly. And if they can't help doing so, they should either be deprived of their guns or fired.
   53. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: April 13, 2021 at 08:14 AM (#6013167)
It should be surprising. Cops shouldn't react badly. And if they can't help doing so, they should either be deprived of their guns or fired.

Cops have the same right of self-defence you or I do. That New Mexico cop getting shot in a traffic stop was all over the news just a day or so ago. If they think you're going for a gun, they are allowed to use violence against you; the question becomes proportionality. What is a cop supposed to do when you resist arrest, and they think you may have a gun?
   54. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: April 13, 2021 at 08:17 AM (#6013169)
I wouldn't wipe my ass with a cop. It's not an exaggeration to say that they are no better than a gang, and far more destructive and far more insulated from consequences for their rotten-to-the-core modus operandi than any other gang in existence. #### every single one of them, and #### the pathetic bootlickers in this thread.

Please don't call them when you're in trouble. For all the unnecessary killings we've seen, there'd be way more people dead, raped, robbed, etc. with the passive policing of the 70's.

And quick frankly, judging an entire class of people like that (especially one that does far more good than harm on net) makes you lower even than your opinion of them. Strange to see you embracing blanket prejudice from your side of the issue.
   55. David Nieporent (now, with children) Posted: April 13, 2021 at 08:19 AM (#6013170)
Do we know what the arrest warrant was for yet? The cops must have, eight? That will go a long way towards deciding if this was egregious or simply unfortunate. Resisting arrest, and trying to get back in your car is going to make most cops think you're going for a gun, especially if you're wanted for something violent.
That's because cops are deliberately falsely trained to think that people are going for guns.
   56. David Nieporent (now, with children) Posted: April 13, 2021 at 08:23 AM (#6013171)
Uh, that's an extremely ... edited account of why Brown was "hassled".
It's not. It's apparently true that the shooting was justifiable, but the initial contact between Wilson and Brown was about jaywalking.
   57. David Nieporent (now, with children) Posted: April 13, 2021 at 08:29 AM (#6013174)
Cops have the same right of self-defence you or I do.
You or I cannot use the "I thought he was reaching for a gun" defense if we shoot someone. That's not self-defense; that's guessing.

And you are, of course, making up that defense here. If the cop actually thought he was going for a gun, she'd¹ have shot him — not tased him. But the official police story, seemingly backed by the video, is that she thought she was tasing him.


¹And by "she'd," I mean "they'd," because all the cops would've reacted.
   58. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: April 13, 2021 at 08:37 AM (#6013175)
You or I cannot use the "I thought he was reaching for a gun" defense if we shoot someone. That's not self-defense; that's guessing.

If you start a fight with me, and I know you have a habit of carrying a pistol, and then I think you're reaching for that weapon, I think self-defense applies.

And you are, of course, making up that defense here. If the cop actually thought he was going for a gun, she'd¹ have shot him — not tased him.

I'm sure she thought he might be getting into the car to get a weapon. She didn't see one, so she tried to tase him. Once someone starts a fight with three armed people (cops or not) you have to assume they're up to something bad, or they're crazy.

¹And by "she'd," I mean "they'd," because all the cops would've reacted.

One was wrestling with him, and one was on the other side of the car. From what I've seen, she was the only one that could really see what Wright was doing.

If it was a simple mistake, then it's just bad training and an incompetent office. I'm not defending the shooting, just saying how the situation got to that is not some evidence of willful police violence, which seems to be the narrative here.

Too many cops #### up and kill people, when it's not warranted. That should be fixed.
   59. David Nieporent (now, with children) Posted: April 13, 2021 at 09:09 AM (#6013177)
If you start a fight with me, and I know you have a habit of carrying a pistol, and then I think you're reaching for that weapon, I think self-defense applies.
Guessing that the other person could be reaching for a weapon is not the same as "think he's reaching for a weapon." Unless we're talking about Stephen Hawking, anyone could have a weapon and could reach for it. That's not the standard. (And Minnesota does not recognize the defense of imperfect self-defense.)

I'm sure she thought he might be getting into the car to get a weapon. She didn't see one, so she tried to tase him. Once someone starts a fight with three armed people (cops or not) you have to assume they're up to something bad, or they're crazy.
You are perversely arguing that the more one-sided the situation is in favor of the shooter, the more the shooter is justified in shooting the other guy.
   60. Zonk Can Sell Culture Posted: April 13, 2021 at 09:16 AM (#6013178)
That's because cops are deliberately falsely trained to think that people are going for guns.


This.

The officer killed in the NM stop is well-taken, but it's an anecdote... and the data says that it is exceedingly rare -

Lots of variables to consider, but the article above found a FL cop was killed in one out of every 3.6 million stops on the low end, and one in every 20.1 million stops on the high end. Nationally it happens 5-10 times per year, out of about 30 million annual stops.


Statistically speaking - construction workers, farmers, garbage men, roofers, lumberjacks, et al - are far more likely to be seriously injured or killed in the job duties.

If one wants to make a qualitative distinction between death/injury at the hands of a person vs falling off a roof, mangled in a thresher, or suffocated in a trench collapse... well, OK. But - the quantitative data does not support the myth.
   61. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: April 13, 2021 at 10:01 AM (#6013182)
Guessing that the other person could be reaching for a weapon is not the same as "think he's reaching for a weapon." Unless we're talking about Stephen Hawking, anyone could have a weapon and could reach for it. That's not the standard. (And Minnesota does not recognize the defense of imperfect self-defense.)


To create a civilian equivalent, let's say you're on my property uninvited, and I ask you to leave. I know you have the habit of carrying an illegal handgun, and am armed myself. You respond to my efforts to remove you from my property by refusing, and scuffling with me. You then reach into your waistband, as one would if going for a gun. I think a reasonable person has the right to believe you pose a danger of death or serious bodily harm, and react accordingly.
   62. Nasty Nate Posted: April 13, 2021 at 10:17 AM (#6013184)
I know you have the habit of carrying an illegal handgun
This part might be a stretch.
   63. Alex meets the threshold for granular review Posted: April 13, 2021 at 11:37 AM (#6013200)
Cops are not a “class,” and I already wouldn’t call them if I was in trouble because at best they’ll show up to stand around looking vaguely confused, shrug their shoulders and do nothing, and that’s if I’m lucky and they don’t decide to actively #### up the lives of me or somebody else I know.
   64. Greg Pope Posted: April 13, 2021 at 12:14 PM (#6013204)
I know you have the habit of carrying an illegal handgun

This part might be a stretch.

The illegal part isn't necessary, though. If I know you regularly carry a gun, even if it's fully licensed and concealed carry is legal, I think I would be justified in assuming that you're reaching for it. I don't think it's reasonable to wait until you have a gun pointed at me before defending myself because you can probably pull the trigger faster than I can do anything. But IANAL.
   65. Nasty Nate Posted: April 13, 2021 at 12:38 PM (#6013209)
I thought the stretch was going from a guy having one pending gun charge from months ago to knowing they are in the habit of carrying a gun.
   66. Never Give an Inge (Dave) Posted: April 13, 2021 at 01:25 PM (#6013219)

It's not. It's apparently true that the shooting was justifiable, but the initial contact between Wilson and Brown was about jaywalking.

While true, I think this is still a selective retelling of what supposedly happened.

According to Wilson, he was traveling westbound on Canfield Drive, having just finished another call, when he saw Brown and Witness 101 walking single file in the middle of the street on the yellow line. Wilson had never before met either Brown or Witness 101. Wilson approached Witness 101 first and told him to use the sidewalk because there had been cars trying to pass them. When pressed by federal prosecutors, Wilson denied using profane language, explaining that he was on his way to meet his fiancée for lunch, and did not want to antagonize the two subjects. Witness 101 responded to Wilson that he was almost to his destination, and Wilson replied, “What’s wrong with the sidewalk?” Wilson stated that Brown unexpectedly responded, “Fuck what you have to say.” As Wilson drove past Brown, he saw cigarillos in Brown’s hand, which alerted him to a radio dispatch of a “stealing in progress” that he heard a few minutes prior while finishing his last call. Wilson then checked his rearview mirror, and realized that Witness 101 matched the description of the other subject on the radio dispatch.

Wilson requested assistance over the radio, stating that he had two subjects on Canfield Drive. Wilson explained that he intended to stop Brown and Witness 101 and wait for backup before he did any further investigation into the theft.
   67. Never Give an Inge (Dave) Posted: April 13, 2021 at 01:42 PM (#6013220)


I thought the stretch was going from a guy having one pending gun charge from months ago to knowing they are in the habit of carrying a gun.


And going from a guy getting into his car to a guy reaching for something in his waistband.

I don't know why someone would feel the need to invent a defense for the police officer that the officer herself has not yet offered up.
   68. Mayor Blomberg Posted: April 13, 2021 at 02:17 PM (#6013225)
I don't know why someone would feel the need to invent a defense for the police officer that the officer herself has not yet offered up.


Well, clearly this is a cop who doesn't understand much about guns because she thought she grabbed her taser.
   69. Ron J Posted: April 13, 2021 at 02:23 PM (#6013227)
#68 26 year veteran. She just resigned and so did the police chief.
   70. My name is Votto, and I love to get blotto Posted: April 13, 2021 at 02:39 PM (#6013229)
You or I cannot use the "I thought he was reaching for a gun" defense if we shoot someone. That's not self-defense; that's guessing.


That's debatable with the "Stand Your Ground" laws. Although he was ultimately convicted, that was the defense used by Jordan Davis's killer in Florida.
   71. Misirlou cut his hair and moved to Rome Posted: April 13, 2021 at 02:55 PM (#6013230)
Too many cops #### up and kill people, when it's not warranted. That should be fixed.


Start by having fewer police interactions with the public. Stop having them be the enforcement arm of the tax collector's office. If they see an expired tag, take a picture with the dash cam and send it to the appropriate agency. Let them deal with it. To many of these situations end up going south. Let's eliminate them.
   72. Zonk Can Sell Culture Posted: April 13, 2021 at 02:59 PM (#6013231)
Cops are not a “class,” and I already wouldn’t call them if I was in trouble because at best they’ll show up to stand around looking vaguely confused, shrug their shoulders and do nothing, and that’s if I’m lucky and they don’t decide to actively #### up the lives of me or somebody else I know.


Setting aside everything after "Cops are not a "class"", (not that I agree or disagree, just that it's not my point and obscures) -- I do think this is the core of the problem. Police *do* seem to very much believe they *are* a "class".... and far too many people of a different, broad "class" (read: "citizens") buy into this framing, to the detriment of society and to the contribution of the problem.

I'm a middle-aged white dude in a pretty cushy white collar career who pays his taxes, lives in a large city in a decent, but not tony neighborhood... and I don't think one needs to be "woke" to be sick of the bullshit.

I'm tired of hearing about good apples and bad apples when the evidence is plainly obvious that the good apples are either so outnumbered that they CAN'T do anything about the bad apples or the system is so ####### that they can't.

Outside my own locale, I only get the national stories... but locally? I consume a lot of local news... and here in Chicago? Well... Jason Van Dyke did get convicted of 2nd degree murder... but - 3 other cops on the scene were acquitted of a coverup, and 4 other cops on the scene were not even charged. No reasonable person who follows the background of the case can arrive at any other conclusion other than - regardless of whether it met the criminal definition of the coverup charged; it was most certainly 7 other cops who lied about what happened, and a lot of lingering questions (like, who were the still-unidentified officers who seized and destroyed the Burger King surveillance video?). Was this just a happenstance of fate that 8 "bad apples" happened to respond to this scene? Or a bigger problem? And - what if the courts hadn't ultimately ruled, a year after the fact - in favor of releasing the damning footage that ultimately led to charges?

Nor is this is an isolated incident... going back a long time... Off-duty officer Anthony Abate beats the #### of out a bartender who cuts him off because he's sloppy drunk and the responding cops threaten the 130 lb woman with the broken jaw with "trouble" if she presses charges? The supposed elite "special operations squad" allegedly formed to deal with gangs in fact, conducts robberies, burglaries, kidnappings, and drug trafficking itself -- and nobody from CPD knows what is going on, it's the FBI who busts the ring?

Add to that the local CPD FOP chose -- and *continues to back* - a union President who said prior to being elected:

In another post in 2017, according to the board, Catanzara made a statement on Facebook that was disparaging to Muslims, reading, “Savages they all deserve a bullet.” Catanzara did not become FOP president until May.


and

According to information from the Police Board made public late Thursday, Catanzara in 2016 posted offensive messages on Facebook. One message read, “Wtf its seriously time to kill these (expletives),” without mentioning exactly who Catanzara was writing about.


Nope.

I'm done.

I know damn well what I pay in taxes. I also know damn well what the very generous compensation and benefits packages are of my city's police force (if I had the same time in my current job on the CPD? I'd be making roughly what I make now - but also be about 5 years from a cushy retirement on a pension AND, not that I find it problematic to avoid doing so, but wouldn't have had to watch what I say about mass murder on social media).

So I'm done.

The police in general have a problem. And if they - as a self-assigned "class" - are incapable of fixing it, then society needs to fix it.
   73. "bothsidesism" word 57i66135 Posted: April 13, 2021 at 03:24 PM (#6013234)
any discussion about police reform has to begin with the fact that many of them are outright nazis. forget about the police side of that for a second, and ask yourself this question: 'if i was an 18 year old hardcore nazi, what occupation would i go into where i can do the most harm to *those* people'?

you're not gonna be a teacher.
you're not gonna be a fireman.
you're not gonna be a paramedic.
you're not gonna be a web developer.

you're going into the army. and you're going into the police.


we know for a fact that this is what they do. they embed themselves into those groups, they form clicks with other enablers, and they poison everything they touch.


until the army and police forces in this country are willing to hunt the nazis within their ranks, even the "good faith" efforts to reform themselves are going to run into a brick wall.
   74. Misirlou cut his hair and moved to Rome Posted: April 13, 2021 at 03:34 PM (#6013236)
Sure. That's long term. In the short term, stop police from being mobile tax collectors.
   75. David Nieporent (now, with children) Posted: April 13, 2021 at 04:02 PM (#6013241)
That's debatable with the "Stand Your Ground" laws. Although he was ultimately convicted, that was the defense used by Jordan Davis's killer in Florida.
Stand your ground has nothing to do with this. All SYG says is that you don't have to retreat before using force, unless you were the initial aggressor. It doesn't say that you can shoot someone just because you're scared.

And saying "So-and-so unsuccessfully used this defense" really doesn't contradict an argument that one can't use this defense.
   76. David Nieporent (now, with children) Posted: April 13, 2021 at 04:06 PM (#6013242)
Sure. That's long term. In the short term, stop police from being mobile tax collectors.
And broader than that: whenever you think that something ought to be outlawed, consider whether it's something you're willing to have people killed over. That doesn't mean every law or proposed law is bad, of course, but stop and think about it, first. Every additional law gives cops one more excuse to harass people and one more reason to use force against them.
   77. Eddie Gaedel Posted: April 13, 2021 at 04:42 PM (#6013244)
#71 (Miserlou): Start by having fewer police interactions with the public. Stop having them be the enforcement arm of the tax collector's office. If they see an expired tag, take a picture with the dash cam and send it to the appropriate agency. Let them deal with it. To many of these situations end up going south. Let's eliminate them.


According to police, having these "pretext stops" gives the police opportunity to identify more serious (or less "tax collectory") crimes. From this story:

"Dangling object [air freshener] stops are a classic example of a pretextual stop, where the police are looking for a valid reason to stop a motorist for something else -- such as suspicion of DUI or maybe to try to search the vehicle," Flusche said.

So-called "pretext stops" allow police to use minor traffic infractions or broken taillights as grounds to investigate motorists for more serious crimes.

Police have defended the stops as crucial for fighting possession of illegal drugs, weapons possession, human trafficking and drunken driving.


I'd like to see the numbers to demonstrate that a meaningfully high number of "pretext stops" result in taking actual "bad guys" off the streets, rather than simply (and unnecessarily) increasing police/civilian interaction... and that is without even discussing how these "pretext stops" are disproportionately performed on people of color.
   78. Misirlou cut his hair and moved to Rome Posted: April 13, 2021 at 05:06 PM (#6013249)
According to police, having these "pretext stops" gives the police opportunity to identify more serious (or less "tax collectory") crimes.


Yes. And I want less of that. Especially when it results in an unacceptable number (even if quite small) of people winding up dead. Remember the woman in Texas who was pulled over for failing to signal a lane change, and wound up dead in jail? And from the municipality's standpoint, how much is this particular pretextual stop going to wind up costing them?
   79. Eddie Gaedel Posted: April 13, 2021 at 05:12 PM (#6013251)
I completely agree--I just wanted to give background that (despite appearances) the police aren't actually acting as mobile tax collectors.
   80. Misirlou cut his hair and moved to Rome Posted: April 13, 2021 at 05:15 PM (#6013253)
I completely agree--I just wanted to give background that (despite appearances) the police aren't actually acting as mobile tax collectors.


OK. But they do just that sometimes. I once found a ticket on my windshield for an expired village sticker one morning. I was parked in my apartment complex parking lot at the time. The only way I could have gotten that was if a cop was trolling through the parking lot in the middle of the night issuing citations for no other reason that to generate revenue.
   81. Zonk Can Sell Culture Posted: April 13, 2021 at 05:22 PM (#6013254)
Given that we've long-since passed the threshold where jurisdictions just use automated cameras to do their infraction revenue till for lots of moving and parking violations - seems to me that most of the predicates for traffic stops can be automated away. Preserve some legal construct to deal with someone doing 50 in a school zone or weaving around, I guess.

But - this makes sense. I've driven in rural Mexico where logical traffic norms, never mind traffic laws, never mind traffic enforcement seem to optional and then also in western Europe where it feels like I need to be plugged into some Matrix and I could sleep while driving, and yeah...

Perhaps this is something that *should* be easy to quantify and fix. I'm suspecting that we have far higher levels of traffic stops than other countries. I can't find data, but it wouldn't surprise me if traffic stops in the US are far higher than other countries.

   82. . Posted: April 13, 2021 at 05:22 PM (#6013255)
American men and women used to be able to carry on and do their jobs even though bad things happened in the world -- as has happened virtually every day in recorded American history.
   83. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: April 13, 2021 at 05:24 PM (#6013257)
EXCLUSIVE: Daunte Wright had a warrant out for his arrest for attempted aggravated robbery charges after 'choking and holding a woman at gunpoint for $820 in 2019,' court papers reveal


Daunte-Wright-warrant-arrest-attempted-aggravated-robbery-charges.html

Seems like the police may have had a good reason to think Wright might be armed and violent.
   84. Shohei Brotani (formerly LA Hombre) Posted: April 13, 2021 at 05:29 PM (#6013259)
Seems like the police may have had a good reason to think Wright might be armed and violent.
So, reaching for the gun instead of the taser wasn't a mistake?
   85. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: April 13, 2021 at 05:32 PM (#6013261)
So, reaching for the gun instead of the taser wasn't a mistake?

It was, but some people have questioned why she even reached for the taser.

It also means that the cops had no alternative to arresting him, and using force when he tried to escape. This wasn't a ticky-tack warrant.
   86. Shohei Brotani (formerly LA Hombre) Posted: April 13, 2021 at 05:54 PM (#6013263)
It was, but some people have questioned why she even reached for the taser.
I still question it. Police training that advocates going to 11 before the other guy is all about maximum escalation.
It also means that the cops had no alternative to arresting him
Why do we even give cops handcuffs? Just shoot anyone who won't comply. If we're going to have a police state, we should get serious about it.
   87. Never Give an Inge (Dave) Posted: April 13, 2021 at 06:26 PM (#6013271)
It was, but some people have questioned why she even reached for the taser.

It also means that the cops had no alternative to arresting him, and using force when he tried to escape. This wasn't a ticky-tack warrant.


We don't know what the police knew about Wright's outstanding warrants at the time they attempted to arrest him, other than that he had one. We don't know how that knowledge affected their actions or decisions, or what alternatives they had, and I don't think we should speculate or create their defense for them.
   88. David Nieporent (now, with children) Posted: April 13, 2021 at 06:45 PM (#6013274)
American men and women used to be able to carry on and do their jobs even though bad things happened in the world -- as has happened virtually every day in recorded American history.
American men and women used to die of smallpox. What's your point exactly? Besides the obvious trolling, I mean?
   89. "bothsidesism" word 57i66135 Posted: April 13, 2021 at 06:47 PM (#6013275)
Mike Lindell announces that his new "free speech" social media platform will ban swearing and taking the Lord's name in vain because it's a "Judeo-Christian platform." https://t.co/cJ2o4Yyu8e pic.twitter.com/Pm4pb7IXTX

— Right Wing Watch (@RightWingWatch) April 13, 2021



just a reminder: when nazis and republicans talk about "free speech", they're not talking about free speech.
   90. Gold Star - just Gold Star Posted: April 13, 2021 at 07:27 PM (#6013282)
I'm a middle-aged white dude in a pretty cushy white collar career who pays his taxes, lives in a large city in a decent, but not tony neighborhood... and I don't think one needs to be "woke" to be sick of the bullshit.

I'm tired of hearing about good apples and bad apples when the evidence is plainly obvious that the good apples are either so outnumbered that they CAN'T do anything about the bad apples or the system is so ####### that they can't.
Pretty much where I am.

I live in the Los Angeles area, so I get to read stories such as:
A new report has found that the Los Angeles County Sheriff’s Department has multiple deputy gangs in which members are encouraged to engage in violent behavior and misconduct.

The report, conducted by researchers at Loyola Marymount University’s School of Law, profiled 18 secret subgroups which “foster a culture of violence and escalate uses of force against community members.”

Several of groups were described as gangs in which members have a common tattoo and perform rituals which “create a culture of celebrating the use of lethal force in the line of duty.”

The report, published Tuesday by the school’s Center For Juvenile Law & Policy, was based on internal affairs interviews of deputies, internal memos and other sources.

The report cited one deputy who claimed in a recent deposition a group called the Executioners celebrated at bars after a deputy would shoot someone, and that the deputy would then receive the group’s common tattoo: a skull wearing a Nazi-style helmet and holding a rifle while surrounded by flames.
These are not the good guys, no matter what their badges say.
   91. Gold Star - just Gold Star Posted: April 13, 2021 at 07:31 PM (#6013284)
the police aren't actually acting as mobile tax collectors.
Didn't the DOJ's report on Ferguson show that (white) city leadership was pretty much holding (black) residents upside-down and shaking them until change fell out of their pockets?
   92. Misirlou cut his hair and moved to Rome Posted: April 13, 2021 at 07:36 PM (#6013286)
Yes
   93. Mayor Blomberg Posted: April 13, 2021 at 08:12 PM (#6013288)
Didn't the DOJ's report on Ferguson show that (white) city leadership was pretty much holding (black) residents upside-down and shaking them until change fell out of their pockets?


I can tell the time of month by the number of cars pulled over.
   94. Mayor Blomberg Posted: April 13, 2021 at 08:32 PM (#6013289)
It was, but some people have questioned why she even reached for the taser.
It also means that the cops had no alternative to arresting him, and using force when he tried to escape. This wasn't a ticky-tack warrant.


The cop and her chief should have read BBTF before resigning.?
   95. winnipegwhip Posted: April 13, 2021 at 08:32 PM (#6013290)
Mike Lindell announces that his new "free speech" social media platform will ban swearing and taking the Lord's name in vain because it's a "Judeo-Christian platform." https://t.co/cJ2o4Yyu8e pic.twitter.com/Pm4pb7IXTX

— Right Wing Watch (@RightWingWatch) April 13, 2021



just a reminder: when nazis and republicans talk about "free speech", they're not talking about free speech.


Jesus Christ Bothsideism you are such a ######## c*nt!

Power to the people brother.
   96. Gold Star - just Gold Star Posted: April 13, 2021 at 08:37 PM (#6013291)
And teams should not play any time a black person is killed by another black person.
Easiest call re: the Ignore function I've had in a while.
   97. "bothsidesism" word 57i66135 Posted: April 13, 2021 at 08:38 PM (#6013292)
Easiest call re: the Ignore function I've had in a while.
i'm pretty sure it's a sock puppet.
   98. "bothsidesism" word 57i66135 Posted: April 13, 2021 at 08:43 PM (#6013293)
Jesus Christ Bothsideism you are such a ######## c*nt!

Power to the people brother.

blasphemy.
cussing.

you're now banned from my pillow's fever swamp.
   99. Lowry Seasoning Salt Posted: April 13, 2021 at 08:47 PM (#6013295)
I'm tired of hearing about good apples and bad apples when the evidence is plainly obvious that the good apples are either so outnumbered that they CAN'T do anything about the bad apples or the system is so ####### that they can't.


I'll believe the good/bad apple excuse when we apply it across society. Executive chef went all Southeast Asian in the bathroom and used his bare left hand to clean himself before not washing his hands and heading back to the kitchen? Sorry, bad apple. Your kids won't be home for the holidays because the pilot crashed the plane? Bad apple. Anesthesiologist got hammered before heading to the OR and now your spouse is in a coma? Bad apple.

Well... Jason Van Dyke did get convicted of 2nd degree murder... but - 3 other cops on the scene were acquitted of a coverup, and 4 other cops on the scene were not even charged.


I thought if I get convicted of murder, so too is my friend who was waiting in the getaway car. This isn't also true for the cops?
   100. Misirlou cut his hair and moved to Rome Posted: April 13, 2021 at 09:23 PM (#6013301)
Seems like the police may have had a good reason to think Wright might be armed and violent.


is it your opinion that citizens must be perfect (or in the case of Philando Castile, more than perfect) in the face of police deadly force scenarios, and if not, death is expected? Or should cops be held to at least as high, if not higher, standard of conduct?

The Army LT in VA, who did absolutely nothing wrong, and got pepper sprayed anyway (which beats getting shot, which was on the table), had an option?
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