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Sunday, December 05, 2021

Minnie, Gil, Buck among 6 elected to Hall

Six baseball legends were elected to the Baseball Hall of Fame Class of 2022 as part of the institution’s Era Committees election cycle in results announced Sunday night on MLB Network. Bud Fowler and Buck O’Neil were elected from the Early Baseball Era Committee ballot of 10 candidates, while Gil Hodges, Jim Kaat, Minnie Miñoso and Tony Oliva were elected from the 10 Golden Days Era Committee candidates.

The Early Baseball Era ballot featured candidates whose primary contributions came before 1950. Seven of the 10 were stars in the Negro Leagues or pre-Negro Leagues, including both Fowler and O’Neil as well as John Donaldson, Vic Harris, Grant “Home Run” Johnson, Dick “Cannonball” Redding and George “Tubby” Scales. American and National Leaguers Bill Dahlen, Lefty O’Doul and Allie Reynolds rounded out the ballot.

Hombre Brotani Posted: December 05, 2021 at 06:39 PM | 159 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
  Tags: buck o'neil, bud fowler, dick redding, george scales, gil hodges, grant johnson, hall of fame, jim kaat, john donaldson, minnie minoso, tony oliva, vick harris

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   1. RoyalsRetro (AG#1F) Posted: December 05, 2021 at 07:23 PM (#6056290)
Happy for the inductees, particularly Minnie Miñoso and Buck O'Neil. No Dick Allen is a disgrace. Reportedly he fell one vote short.
   2. asinwreck Posted: December 05, 2021 at 07:32 PM (#6056291)
Wearing my Miñoso jersey tonight. Delighted for his family.
   3. kcgard2 Posted: December 05, 2021 at 07:38 PM (#6056292)
These committees, man.
   4. cardsfanboy Posted: December 05, 2021 at 07:41 PM (#6056294)
Dick was one vote short, Boyer got three votes or less....
   5. JRVJ Posted: December 05, 2021 at 07:43 PM (#6056295)
1, if I understand how Veterans Commitee's work, the fact that 4 inductees got in from the Golden Age Committee is absolutely bonkers.

Yes, it's terrible Mr. Allen was not chosen, but I cannot get upset if the horse trading got us these 4 guys (Veterans Committee voting is its own thing, pretty independent of the quality of the players' careers).

EDITED to make it clearer after 6's comment.
   6. Never Give an Inge (Dave) Posted: December 05, 2021 at 07:46 PM (#6056296)
#5 they elected 6 guys, not 4.
   7. JRVJ Posted: December 05, 2021 at 07:46 PM (#6056297)
An additional comment: by virtue of these 6 men getting inducted (two of which are alive), Cooperstown has avoided the dreaded (and possibly inevitable) whitewash from the BBWAA ballot.

I wonder if that was something that was actively discussed by committee members.
   8. Ziggy: social distancing since 1980 Posted: December 05, 2021 at 07:47 PM (#6056298)
Minoso was a good selection. As usual with the vets committee, the other guys are unimpressive. But that's how it goes. I know a bunch of people who are happy about Hodges getting in though. If there's any lesson from that selection, it's that if you get enough tries, eventually you'll get in. Roger Maris just has to wait a while...
   9. JRVJ Posted: December 05, 2021 at 07:47 PM (#6056299)
6, different committees chose different guys.


The one which did not choose Mr. Allen chose 4 inductees, the other one chose two.
   10. Ziggy: social distancing since 1980 Posted: December 05, 2021 at 07:48 PM (#6056300)
Inge - there were two different committees. One elected four, one elected two.
   11. Jaack Posted: December 05, 2021 at 07:48 PM (#6056301)
Well I'm happy Minoso got elected, and it's nice that the committees (or at least the Golden Days committee) are working to elect players, particularly living ones.

But their evaluation skills are.... uh not great. The three best choices on the Early Days committee got the least support.
   12. Walt Davis Posted: December 05, 2021 at 07:59 PM (#6056303)
Congrats to all, especially Minoso ... but man, the floodgates were open even though the dam is not full.
   13. DL from MN Posted: December 05, 2021 at 08:04 PM (#6056304)
Too bad Dick Allen died since the last time he was up for a vote. Remaining alive obviously makes you a better choice.
   14. cardsfanboy Posted: December 05, 2021 at 08:04 PM (#6056305)
Minoso was a good selection. As usual with the vets committee, the other guys are unimpressive. But that's how it goes. I know a bunch of people who are happy about Hodges getting in though. If there's any lesson from that selection, it's that if you get enough tries, eventually you'll get in. Roger Maris just has to wait a while...


How is Minoso better than Boyer or Allen?
   15. Howie Menckel Posted: December 05, 2021 at 08:05 PM (#6056306)
Hodges is kind of Baines-ian just as a player, with empty RBI totals in a stacked lineup.

but the hapless Senators got better under him, and managing the 1969 Miracle Mets is an incredible bonus.

and in the NYC area, finally we don't have to listen to his many supporters kvetching anymore - that alone makes it worthwhile

:)

Kaat w Oliva - both Twins, both alive - is a pretty obvious tandem selection
   16. bachslunch Posted: December 05, 2021 at 08:06 PM (#6056307)
Vote totals, with 12 needed for election:

Minoso - 14
Hodges, Kaat, Oliva - 12
Allen - 11

O’Neal - 13
Fowler - 12
Harris - 10
Donaldson - 8
Reynolds - 6
O’Doul - 5
Scales - 4

Everyone else got 3 votes or less.

At least Minoso finally got in, and there were no terrible selections such as Maris or Wills or Reynolds. Allen, Dahlen, Redding, and Boyer got screwed — especially Allen. And with Kaat in, there’s no good argument for leaving out Tommy John.
   17. RoyalsRetro (AG#1F) Posted: December 05, 2021 at 08:10 PM (#6056308)
I thought Dick Redding had a decent shot, but he got ZERO votes?
   18. cardsfanboy Posted: December 05, 2021 at 08:10 PM (#6056309)
6, different committees chose different guys.


The one which did not choose Mr. Allen chose 4 inductees, the other one chose two.


The committee had a grand total of 64 votes (16 ballots, of which they were allowed four names) It takes 12 votes to get elected, so of those 64 votes, a minimum of 48 went to Kaat, Oliva, Minoso and Hodges, leaving at most 16 votes for the remaining candidates. Allen got 11 of those votes leaving five for the rest.

It's hard to not imagine that there was a concerted and agreed effort to vote for the names that got in.

Edit: based upon 16, that means that only 3 votes total remained for Boyer. Literally the best candidate on the ballot, and he gets less than three votes, weird.
   19. DL from MN Posted: December 05, 2021 at 08:15 PM (#6056310)
and in the NYC area, finally we don't have to listen to his many supporters kvetching anymore - that alone makes it worthwhile


Endless whining should be rewarded, right? That's just good parenting.
   20. GregD Posted: December 05, 2021 at 08:17 PM (#6056311)
How is Minoso better than Boyer or Allen?

I didn’t make that argument myself but I think the case for Miñoso has been that from age 25 to 33 he had 47 WAR and 30 WAA but got only twenty plate appearances at ages 23-24. I know there’s been re-examination of his record and the openings and a legitimate argument that he wasn’t explicitly denied. But we are talking about a dark-skinned player in 1949 and 1950 and there’s every reason to assume the reason was racism.
   21. DL from MN Posted: December 05, 2021 at 08:17 PM (#6056312)
with Kaat in, there’s no good argument for leaving out Tommy John


Or Frank Tanana
   22. DL from MN Posted: December 05, 2021 at 08:18 PM (#6056313)
Vic Harris becomes the leading candidate for that same committee in 10 years and I think I'm fine with that. He's deserving.
   23. cardsfanboy Posted: December 05, 2021 at 08:19 PM (#6056314)
I didn’t make that argument myself but I think the case for Miñoso has been that from age 25 to 33 he had 47 WAR and 30 WAA but got only twenty plate appearances at ages 23-24. I know there’s been re-examination of his record and the openings and a legitimate argument that he wasn’t explicitly denied. But we are talking about a dark-skinned player in 1949 and 1950 and there’s every reason to assume the reason was racism.


Boyer put up 32+ Waa and 55 war from his age 25 to 33... not really seeing any reason that Minoso has a better argument.
   24. JRVJ Posted: December 05, 2021 at 08:27 PM (#6056315)
18, I have nothing against Allen or Boyer, and would hope that they get elected next time.

My POV is that the Veterans' committee are horribly set-up, and failed to elect a number of super worthy candidates in the past.

If the fix was in this year, and they got these 4 gents over the line, I can live with that, and hope that others (e.g., Whitaker) get their due soon enough.

20, I agree, in the sense that one cannot possibly appraise Minnie Miñoso's career without taking into account the racial environment in which he had to operate, and credit him accordingly.
   25. ERROR---Jolly Old St. Nick Posted: December 05, 2021 at 08:32 PM (#6056316)
In many ways was the most interesting inductee today was Lefty O'Doul. Very good hitter (2 batting championships, .349 BA) with a nominally long (15 year) career, but a career in which he only played 100 or more games 6 times.

But then he also played in the minors for 16 seasons with a lifetime .352 BA, managed the PCL San Francisco Seals for 17 years, and was instrumental in bringing MLB players to Japan.** He was inducted into the Japanese HoF in 2002, and in truth he kind of deserved enshrinement here for his overall contributions to the game of baseball. Until today, the Japanese seemed to appreciate him more than their stateside counterparts did.

** The Tokyo Giants took their name from O'Doul in 1935, in honor of his association with the New York Giants.
   26. baxter Posted: December 05, 2021 at 08:45 PM (#6056317)
25 Are you confabulating o'doul/o'neil?
   27. The Duke Posted: December 05, 2021 at 08:51 PM (#6056318)
Well, if they live to see it Oliva and Kaat may be the only two live inductees next summer. So it will be a big Twins and white Sox turnout at Cooperstown. I’m just kind of shocked that Gil Hodges beats Dick Allen. Having said that, I always thought that Kaat was a HOF’r, Oliva certainly had a HOF peak (he’d be in the other side of the line for me) and minoso clearly would have likely been up sooner if he had been white plus he’s such an inspiration for the Cubans.

So dick Allen gets in five years from now I guess
   28. Posada Posse Posted: December 05, 2021 at 08:55 PM (#6056319)
For some reason I have an irrationally soft spot for pitching compilers with good counting stats who played forever. As a result, I am thrilled with Jim Kaat's induction especially while he is still here with us.
   29. reech Posted: December 05, 2021 at 09:04 PM (#6056321)
If the BBWAA can't get it together with the HOF election, at least they'll be a couple of living electees.
   30. Ziggy: social distancing since 1980 Posted: December 05, 2021 at 09:05 PM (#6056322)
Dear lord, Minoso led the league in hit by pitch every year from 1951 to 1961 (inclusive), except for 55. Did he go around running over pitchers' dogs? Was he wearing a baseball magnet? Did he stand directly in front of the catcher?
   31. Steve Balboni's Personal Trainer Posted: December 05, 2021 at 09:36 PM (#6056324)
So with four (!) Golden ERa guys getting inducted, the six left over include:

Dick Allen
Ken Boyer
Roger Maris
Billy Pierce
Maury Wills
Danny Murtaugh

A few thoughts/questions for the group:

1) The next time this group convenes to vote, Allen has to be a lock, right?
2) Who would be some of the players who were *not* on this ballot who would now go on? It is supposed to include players whose "primary contributions" occurred between 1950 and 1969. I presume that means Tommy John and Luis Tiant would not qualify? With all due respect to the players who got in today, aren't we just about out of players from before 1970 who have a really good argument? Hodges, Kaat, Oliva, and Minoso are four of the guys I've been reading arguments about my entire life (born in 1974), and now their arguments are resolved.
3) Besides Allen, what players' HOF argumnets are theoretically helped the most by the selection of these four players? I presume John, because Kaat's selection makes it tougher to ignore John (and I count his surgery in his favor - at the time, it was pretty gutsy to go the knife for that procedure!). Will there be less-qualified candidates from before 1970 who will become a cause now, because all of these guys are now off the board...or are we at a place with the passage of time where there just aren't that many people around who are going to give a #### (much like there is now nobody who gives a #### about players from the early 20th century).
4) Who are the players from the post-1970 period who will be the guys we'll be increasingly focusing on for veteran inductions over the next 20 years? In 20 years, will people be campaigning for, like, Steve Garvey? Dale Murphy? Fred McGriff? Jim Edmonds?
   32. Howie Menckel Posted: December 05, 2021 at 09:56 PM (#6056325)
I continue to be fascinated by the lack of interest among voters in Bill Dahlen.

even just from counting stats, you get 2133 games at SS, 2413 hits, a 110 OPS+, 8 times in his league's top 8 in WAR, durable, had a homer/speed combo, excellent fielding reputation.....

and for all that, he gets snubbed by HOF and resides in an unmarked grave in Brooklyn.
   33. DL from MN Posted: December 05, 2021 at 10:10 PM (#6056328)
Who would be some of the players who were *not* on this ballot who would now go on?


Bill Freehan - obviously
Jim Wynn
Norm Cash
Vada Pinson
Don Newcombe
Jim Fregosi
Elston Howard
Roy White
Wilbur Wood
Larry Jackson
Frank Howard
Al Rosen
   34. TJ Posted: December 05, 2021 at 10:22 PM (#6056332)
An additional comment: by virtue of these 6 men getting inducted (two of which are alive), Cooperstown has avoided the dreaded (and possibly inevitable) whitewash from the BBWAA ballot.

I wonder if that was something that was actively discussed by committee members.


That thought crossed my mind as well, along with the rejoinder to the inevitable complaints to come from BBWAA voters about the VCs diluting the Hall, which would be, “Whether you like it or not, the Hall is a business that needs living inductees to get fans to come out for induction weekend. If you get off your pompous high horses and start voting for worthy living HOF candidates maybe the VCs won’t induct so many you turned down.”
   35. DL from MN Posted: December 05, 2021 at 10:24 PM (#6056333)
Who are the players from the post-1970 period who will be the guys we'll be increasingly focusing on for veteran inductions over the next 20 years?


Luis Tiant should be first in line. Lou Whitaker and Jack Morris are obvious. Bobby Grich can't get on the ballot. There's also

Darrell Evans
Dwight Evans
Bret Saberhagen
Orel Hershiser
David Cone
Dave Stieb
Rick Reuschel
Reggie Smith
Bert Campaneris
Dave Concepcion
Buddy Bell
Tommy John
Frank Tanana
Gene Tenace
Keith Hernandez
Graig Nettles
Ron Guidry
Willie Randolph
Frank Viola
Dwight Gooden
Thurman Munson

We haven't even mentioned the 90s yet.
   36. Random Transaction Generator Posted: December 05, 2021 at 10:46 PM (#6056335)
Luis Tiant should be first in line. Lou Whitaker and Jack Morris are obvious.

Morris already made it in 2018.

I think Don Mattingly will get on that list. I'm not saying he should be in the HOF, but he fits in that group.
   37. Doug Jones threw harder than me Posted: December 05, 2021 at 10:48 PM (#6056336)
Congratulations to the inductees.

With Kaat in, I would think Luis Tiant and Tommy John would be a lock.
   38. Zach Posted: December 05, 2021 at 11:24 PM (#6056338)
Minoso -- thought he was in already.

O'Neil -- should have been elected by the last Negro Leagues committee (when he was alive, no less).

Hodges, Kaat, Oliva -- like the baptism scene in the Godfather. Tonight we settle all the family's business.
   39. RoyalsRetro (AG#1F) Posted: December 05, 2021 at 11:30 PM (#6056339)

I think Don Mattingly will get on that list. I'm not saying he should be in the HOF, but he fits in that group.


Next year the committee is selecting candidates from 1987 on, and my guess is Mattingly and Fred McGriff get in, instead of candidates like Lou Whitaker, Jim Edmonds, and Kenny Lofton.

But it seems like it all depends entirely on who is on the committee.
   40. Hombre Brotani Posted: December 06, 2021 at 12:33 AM (#6056341)
But it seems like it all depends entirely on who is on the committee.
As soon as Rod Carew was named onto the committee this year, you knew Oliva and Kaat were going in.
   41. bjhanke Posted: December 06, 2021 at 03:47 AM (#6056343)
The line for Candidates from 1987 on starts with Mark McGw1re or Barry Bonds or Roger Clemens. Accept no substitutes.
   42. Adam Starblind Posted: December 06, 2021 at 07:09 AM (#6056347)
41, that’s a good way to create a mini Ballot Armageddon in the VC. Those three can wait.
   43. The Duke Posted: December 06, 2021 at 07:38 AM (#6056348)
Dick Allen
Ken Boyer
Roger Maris
Billy Pierce
Maury Wills
Danny Murtaugh
Bill Freehan
Jim Wynn
Norm Cash
Vada Pinson
Don Newcombe
Jim Fregosi
Elston Howard
Roy White
Wilbur Wood
Larry Jackson
Frank Howard
Al Rosen


If this is the remaining list, they should vote in Allen, Boyer and Freehan and retire the committee (at least move it to once every ten years) and perhaps break up the modern / today’s committee into smaller increments.
   44. sanny manguillen Posted: December 06, 2021 at 07:43 AM (#6056349)
1) The next time this group convenes to vote, Allen has to be a lock, right?


The last time this era (1947-72) was voted was in 2014. The voting went:

Allen, Oliva 11
Kaat 10
Wills 9
Minoso 8
Boyer, Howsam, Hodges, Pierce, Tiant <3

So Allen's total didn't move, but he's no longer in a log jam.
   45. Jack Sommers Posted: December 06, 2021 at 08:10 AM (#6056351)
Reggie Smith:

Had the exact same peak 7 as Oliva, 38.6 WAR, but of course total career way out in front 64.6 to 43.

Walks man....after all this time......
   46. Rally Posted: December 06, 2021 at 08:39 AM (#6056354)
Hodges: 370 career homers. 44 WAR. His best season was 6.2, best OPS+ was 142. Managed the 69 Mets and that seems to give him some extra points, but other than that his best record as a manager was 83-79, and his teams had a losing record in 6 of his 9 years. Sure, that’s not all his fault, they were the Senators and Mets. But other than 1 year, not much to be impressed about.

As a player he was slightly less impressive than Mark Teixeira. Not the worst choice for HOF, he’s better than Harold Baines. But I’ve got him miles behind Dick Allen.

That aside, great job by the voters to reach a consensus, navigate the flawed process, and actually get a large group of people in.
   47. ERROR---Jolly Old St. Nick Posted: December 06, 2021 at 09:04 AM (#6056355)
25 Are you confabulating o'doul/o'neil?

No, but when I saw all those names listed I'd thought that O'Doul was also among the new inductees. I caught the mistake after it was too late to edit it. My bad.

That said, IMO he's still a worthy inductee, for the reasons I mentioned. I've never viewed the Hall of Fame as exclusively a Hall of Statistical Accomplishments, even if that's the greatest part of it.
   48. dejarouehg Posted: December 06, 2021 at 09:12 AM (#6056356)
46 - Hodges, by most accounts, was one of the best fielding first basement ever. I guess defense doesn't count. I too am disgusted at Allen's omission and especially pissed that he wasn't given the honor when he was alive. (I find posthumous honors to be somewhat distasteful, if not disingenuous.)

As for the Baines comparison, he was never a dominant player. Hodges was the dominant first baseman in the 50's averaging 30 HR and 100RBI. (Howie, please define empty RBI's. Were Mattingly's?)

I think if you dominate your position for a lengthy period of time (I believe 7 -10 years), that it solidifies your candidacy.

(FYI, I completely agree that without his managing the Mets, he doesn't get in and the "whining" from the Northeast pushed his candidacy. But I still believe that would be the wrong decision.)

For anyone who is interested in Hodges, I watched this on Youtube last night: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jCjwO25fw8E

Granted, the anti-Hodges contingent will certainly (and fairly) consider it a puff-piece. Still, it is cool baseball history.

And, why is he less impressive than Teixeira?

   49. The Duke Posted: December 06, 2021 at 09:20 AM (#6056357)
Kaat quite self-aware in his MLB interview. Said he wasn’t a dominant #1 but that he was a durable #2. Interesting that his only two injuries were from base-running. Fascinating how far off his fWAR and bWAR are from one another. Hard to believe the metrics we rely on can be off by such large dimensions. Eye test vs WAR is never really as far off as fWAR and bWAR which tells me there is work to do on those metrics
   50. dejarouehg Posted: December 06, 2021 at 09:32 AM (#6056361)
49, If you look at the 1972 Topps Gene Michael In Action baseball card, I believe you will see Jim Kaat sliding into 2nd base. A cool and anachronistic picture.

https://search.yahoo.com/search?p=topps+1972+gene+michael+in+action&fr=yfp-t&ei=UTF-8&fp=1
   51. Ziggy: social distancing since 1980 Posted: December 06, 2021 at 09:45 AM (#6056362)
Eye test vs WAR is never really as far off as fWAR and bWAR which tells me there is work to do on those metrics


Of course there is more work to do, but not for that reason. fWAR and bWAR just measure different things. It's unfortunate that they are both called "wins above replacement", as they don't even try to do the same thing.
   52. DL from MN Posted: December 06, 2021 at 10:04 AM (#6056363)
Morris already made it in 2018.


I think my brain won't accept it. Either way we'll probably keep arguing about it for the next 20 years.

I think Don Mattingly will get on that list.


I'm sure he will be. The ballot committee will also try to keep shoving Steve Garvey through the doors.
   53. DL from MN Posted: December 06, 2021 at 10:11 AM (#6056364)
Dick Allen
Ken Boyer
Roger Maris
Billy Pierce
Maury Wills
Danny Murtaugh
Bill Freehan
Jim Wynn
Norm Cash
Vada Pinson
Don Newcombe
Jim Fregosi
Elston Howard
Roy White
Wilbur Wood
Larry Jackson
Frank Howard
Al Rosen

If this is the remaining list, they should vote in Allen, Boyer and Freehan and retire the committee


I agree 100% with that. For one - everyone on that list is deceased. In 10 years most of their teammates, spouses, brothers and sisters will also be gone. Have one more election in 5 years and then merge those candidates in with the pre-1950 committee and meet every 10 years. Have two era committees for the players who are still alive: (70s and 80s, 90s and 2000s or pre and post steroid) and vote on each every other year.

The committee is likely to scan All-Star Game appearances and notice Del Crandall, Harvey Kuenn, Sherm Lollar and Rocky Colavito.
   54. Rally Posted: December 06, 2021 at 10:59 AM (#6056367)
And, why is he less impressive than Teixeira?


Not by much, but on every selling point for Gil, Mark was better.

Homers? 409 to 370, and Gil had a slightly longer career.

Ops+ 126 to 120

Top 3 years 152, 149, 144 to 142, 141, 140

WAR: 51 to 44

Defense: +88 to +47

   55. Don August(us) Cesar Geronimo Berroa Posted: December 06, 2021 at 11:08 AM (#6056369)
46 - Hodges, by most accounts, was one of the best fielding first basement ever. I guess defense doesn't count. I too am disgusted at Allen's omission and especially pissed that he wasn't given the honor when he was alive. (I find posthumous honors to be somewhat distasteful, if not disingenuous.)


defense is included in his WAR. I don't know if "dominant" is the right way to describe it, but, Hodges is the only first baseman from 1950-1959 that managed even 30 WAR over the decade (41.1). Nothing against him but that seems like a really weak time for first base. I mean, Votto, from 2010-2019 (which includes and injury shortened season, and some decline) has 52.9 WAR in that time, and there are people here who still think he isn't close to a lock. Hodges was consistent, and racked up RBI because he got to hit behind a lot of excellent players through the 50s. Pee Wee, Jackie, Duke.

Comparing him to Harold Baines is unfair though. Baines was basically an average player for a long time, Gil had at least a few really good seasons.
   56. Eric J can SABER all he wants to Posted: December 06, 2021 at 11:09 AM (#6056370)
46 - Hodges, by most accounts, was one of the best fielding first basement ever. I guess defense doesn't count.

Defense is included in WAR - Hodges scores at 47 runs above average for a first baseman, which adds roughly 4 WAR to his career total. If you think that undersells him and he was actually Keith Hernandez, you can add 6 or so on top of that; still a pretty marginal WAR total overall.

Hodges was the dominant first baseman in the 50's averaging 30 HR and 100RBI... I think if you dominate your position for a lengthy period of time (I believe 7 -10 years), that it solidifies your candidacy.

Hodges was the best overall first baseman of the '50s because most of the best hitters of the decade played the outfield. (Left fielders as a group outhit first basemen overall for the decade, which is not common; center fielders and right fielders were within 10 OPS points of first basemen as well.) He also didn't dominate even the relatively weak first base field all that much - Earl Torgeson outplayed him in 1950, as did Ted Kluszewski every year from '53 to '55. And starting in '55, he was also contending with Stan Musial, who was still a great player in his mid-30's.

As a hitter overall, Hodges led the NL in... games played twice, strikeouts once, and sacrifice flies the first two years they were recorded officially. Top 5 in HR four times and RBI six times; his "gray ink" total (based on top-10 finishes in batting categories) is below average for a Hall of Famer despite playing a hitter's position in a small league.
   57. DL from MN Posted: December 06, 2021 at 11:17 AM (#6056371)
Not by much, but on every selling point for Gil, Mark was better.


The lesson learned here is if you want to be a Hall of Famer you should be trying to get a gig that keeps you in the public eye as long as possible.
   58. The Duke Posted: December 06, 2021 at 12:38 PM (#6056381)
57. …..and then die in your prime.

Although to be fair, that didn’t work for Thurman Munson. Also, halladay had a Munson-like career and died in a plane accident and very young so really I guess people just don’t like Munson
   59. The Duke Posted: December 06, 2021 at 12:56 PM (#6056382)
I saw this tweet about Kaat:

Jim Kaat had 144 "quality starts" (at least six innings, no more than three earned) that he did not win... during those 144 games he was 0-81 with a 2.50 ERA. Moreover, he went at least seven innings in 91 of those, during that 91 he was 0-55 with a sparkling 2.12 ERA.

   60. Don August(us) Cesar Geronimo Berroa Posted: December 06, 2021 at 01:03 PM (#6056383)
I am really surprised that Munson hasn't been elected. I guess we will see how it goes in the voting for Buster Posey, but, he and Munson seem like they are good comps. MVP, ROY. Similar career WAR, similar WAR7 (Munson slightly higher in both). Considered the leader of several pennant winning teams. 3 titles for Posey, just the 1 for Munson.

   61. Don August(us) Cesar Geronimo Berroa Posted: December 06, 2021 at 01:06 PM (#6056384)
Jim Kaat had 144 "quality starts" (at least six innings, no more than three earned)


I feel like deGrom has had about that many type starts, in just the last few years. :-) Yes, I know that isn't possible.
   62. Rally Posted: December 06, 2021 at 01:14 PM (#6056385)
deGrom has 153 starts where he pitched at least 6 innings
   63. Never Give an Inge (Dave) Posted: December 06, 2021 at 01:18 PM (#6056387)
Defense: +88 to +47

It's not really fair to compare rfield numbers from the 1950s to those from today. They're literally using different metrics. Using Total Zone Runs (which I believe is used in Hodges' rfield, although it doesn't exactly match), Gil is at +39 and Tex is at +41.
   64. dejarouehg Posted: December 06, 2021 at 01:21 PM (#6056388)
Munson had 2 titles and hit 529 or some ridiculous number when they lost in 76
   65. dejarouehg Posted: December 06, 2021 at 01:21 PM (#6056389)
double-post
   66. Don August(us) Cesar Geronimo Berroa Posted: December 06, 2021 at 01:25 PM (#6056392)
deGrom has 153 starts where he pitched at least 6 innings


in 2018 and 2019: deGrom had 31 QS he didn't win (i think I counted that right)
   67. Don August(us) Cesar Geronimo Berroa Posted: December 06, 2021 at 01:37 PM (#6056394)
Munson had 2 titles and hit 529 or some ridiculous number when they lost in 76


duh, sorry. had a brain fart and was thinking they didn't win in '77. Yikes, that's pretty bad. :-)
   68. Eric J can SABER all he wants to Posted: December 06, 2021 at 01:37 PM (#6056395)
Jim Kaat had 144 "quality starts" (at least six innings, no more than three earned) that he did not win... during those 144 games he was 0-81 with a 2.50 ERA. Moreover, he went at least seven innings in 91 of those, during that 91 he was 0-55 with a sparkling 2.12 ERA.

I mean, this is obviously selective sampling? Any pitcher is going to have a good ERA if you look at only quality starts, and any pitcher is going to have a bad record if you look at only starts they didn't win. To take other long-career pitchers who aren't yet inducted, how many times did Tommy John, or Frank Tanana, or Luis Tiant, or Jamie Moyer, or Bartolo Colon, or Dennis Martinez, or David Wells have a quality start and not win? I bet their ERAs are good in those games as well. (And even if Kaat had more, that will be inflated by his prime coming in the low-scoring '60s and '70s.)
   69. McCoy Posted: December 06, 2021 at 01:41 PM (#6056397)
QS is kind of a misnomer anyway. 6 innings 3 earned runs is not a quality outing. Less than that? Sure.
   70. DL from MN Posted: December 06, 2021 at 02:10 PM (#6056401)
The 1970-73 Twins now have 5 Hall of Famers despite only having one season above .500.
   71. The Duke Posted: December 06, 2021 at 02:13 PM (#6056402)
So Kaat was a starter mostly for what 16-18 years ? Something like 8 starts a year every year. Is there a lot, normal, a little ?
   72. RoyalsRetro (AG#1F) Posted: December 06, 2021 at 02:15 PM (#6056403)
And Luis Tiant is not one of them!
   73. SandyRiver Posted: December 06, 2021 at 02:55 PM (#6056407)
#71: That's 8 starts/year in which he pitched 6+ innings and allowed 3 runs or fewer but didn't win. He had some other starts during that period.

#72: Tiant should've been elected by the writers. Borderline WAR plus narrative. (One of Roger Angell's finest paragrphs was in Five Seasons, the description of Tiant's windup.)
   74. salvomania Posted: December 06, 2021 at 03:08 PM (#6056408)
Hodges is the only first baseman from 1950-1959 that managed even 30 WAR over the decade (41.1).

By the same standards that call Joe Mauer a catcher, we can call Stan Musial a first baseman for the 1950s, as he had more starts there than at any other position. He had 59.8 WAR in the 1950s.
   75. Jack Sommers Posted: December 06, 2021 at 03:33 PM (#6056410)
1920-1960, Players in a season to have 4 + WAR and 50+% of playing time at 1b

The 50's the fewest of any of these decades. Report Link


Year^                                                                                                            #Matching
1920            2                                                                                Joe Judge George Sisler
1921            3                                                               Jack Fournier 
George Sisler Ben Taylor
1922            4                                                   Jake Daubert 
Ray Grimes Wally Pipp George Sisler
1923            5                             Jim Bottomley 
George Burns Oscar Charleston Jack Fournier Joe Hauser
1924            2                                                                       Jack Fournier 
High Pockets Kelly
1925            3                                                              Willie Bobo 
Jim Bottomley Jack Fournier
1926            3                                                                 George Burns 
Lou Gehrig Mule Suttles
1927            3                                                                  Jim Bottomley 
Lou Gehrig Bill Terry
1928            6                        Del Bissonette 
Lu Blue Jim Bottomley Lou Gehrig Mule Suttles Bill Terry
1929            7              Dale Alexander 
Lu Blue Lew Fonseca Jimmie Foxx Lou Gehrig Bill Terry Jud Wilson
1930            5                                            Jimmie Foxx 
Lou Gehrig Joe Judge Ed Morgan Bill Terry
1931            5                                              Lu Blue 
Jimmie Foxx Lou Gehrig Ed Morgan Bill Terry
1932            4                                                        Jimmie Foxx 
Lou Gehrig Don Hurst Bill Terry
1933            3                                                                    Jimmie Foxx 
Lou Gehrig Bill Terry
1934            7        Ripper Collins 
Jimmie Foxx Lou Gehrig Hank Greenberg Sam Leslie Bill Terry Hal Trosky
1935            5                                  Ripper Collins 
Jimmie Foxx Lou Gehrig Hank Greenberg Bill Terry
1936            8 Zeke Bonura 
Dolph Camilli Jimmie Foxx Lou Gehrig Joe Kuhel Johnny Mize Gus Suhr Hal Trosky
1937            5                                  Zeke Bonura 
Dolph Camilli Lou Gehrig Hank Greenberg Johnny Mize
1938            6                     Dolph Camilli 
Jimmie Foxx Lou Gehrig Hank Greenberg Johnny Mize Hal Trosky
1939            6                Dolph Camilli 
Jimmie Foxx Hank Greenberg Frank McCormick Johnny Mize Hal Trosky
1940            6                 Dolph Camilli 
Elbie Fletcher Jimmie Foxx Frank McCormick Johnny Mize Rudy York
1941            4                                            Dolph Camilli 
Elbie Fletcher George McQuinn Johnny Mize
1942            3                                                             Dolph Camilli 
Elbie Fletcher Johnny Mize
1943            2                                                                               Elbie Fletcher 
Rudy York
1944            3                                                            Nick Etten 
Frank McCormick Phil Weintraub
1945            2                                                                              Phil Cavarretta 
Joe Kuhel
1946            5                                 Hank Greenberg 
Johnny Hopp Johnny Mize Stan Musial Mickey Vernon
1947            6              Roy Cullenbine 
Ferris Fain George McQuinn Johnny Mize Stan Musial Jackie Robinson
1948            1                                                                                              Johnny Mize
1949                                                                                                                     0
1950            1                                                                                            Earl Torgeson
1951            3                                                                 Ferris Fain 
Gil Hodges Earl Torgeson
1952            3                                                                Ferris Fain 
Gil Hodges Whitey Lockman
1953            3                                                              Gil Hodges 
Ted Kluszewski Mickey Vernon
1954            2                                                                              Gil Hodges 
Ted Kluszewski
1955            3                                                                Gil Hodges 
Ted Kluszewski Stan Musial
1956            3                                                                  Joe Adcock 
Stan Musial Bill Skowron
1957            3                                                                    Ed Bouchee 
Gil Hodges Stan Musial
1958            2                                                                                  Stan Musial 
Vic Power
1959            1                                                                                           Frank Robinson
1960            2                                                                            Frank Robinson 
Bill Skowron 


Provided by Stathead.com: View Stathead Tool Used
Generated 12/6/2021.
   76. Rally Posted: December 06, 2021 at 03:51 PM (#6056412)
It's not really fair to compare rfield numbers from the 1950s to those from today. They're literally using different metrics. Using Total Zone Runs (which I believe is used in Hodges' rfield, although it doesn't exactly match), Gil is at +39 and Tex is at +41.


Fair enough. They were both good fielders. Maybe equals. If TZ is that close then I can’t argue for one over the other with the glove. It’s a little more clear with the bat, Tex was the better hitter. Tex won more gold gloves 5-3, but that’s because they didn’t invent the award until 1957, when Gil was 33.

On baserunning neither was fast, but they weren’t liabilities out there either. They had the same roles on the team. Middle of the order, power hitting first basemen. Good with the glove. I don’t see any reason to think, if drafting a team outside of the restrictions of time, That I’d want Gil instead of Tex.
   77. Jack Sommers Posted: December 06, 2021 at 04:04 PM (#6056418)
I don’t see any reason to think, if drafting a team outside of the restrictions of time, That I’d want Gil instead of Tex.


Intangibles ?

J/K, I'll see my way out now.
   78. The Duke Posted: December 06, 2021 at 04:48 PM (#6056420)
Is there a HOF tracker thread this year ?
   79. alilisd Posted: December 06, 2021 at 04:53 PM (#6056422)
Dear lord, Minoso led the league in hit by pitch every year from 1951 to 1961 (inclusive), except for 55. Did he go around running over pitchers' dogs? Was he wearing a baseball magnet?


You've never heard of the Minnie Minoso Baseball Magnet? They used to have infomercials for it that ran along with the Tom Emanski videos McGriff used to pitch
   80. Slivers of Maranville descends into chaos (SdeB) Posted: December 06, 2021 at 05:24 PM (#6056427)
You've never heard of the Minnie Minoso Baseball Magnet? They used to have infomercials for it that ran along with the Tom Emanski videos McGriff used to pitch


I think it was one of the prizes on George Will's Sports Machine.
   81. Starring Bradley Scotchman as RMc Posted: December 06, 2021 at 05:43 PM (#6056429)
Hodges is kind of Baines-ian just as a player, with empty RBI totals in a stacked lineup.

I have always said that I would never vote for Hodges, but I wouldn't objection to his election.

So, I won't.
   82. bachslunch Posted: December 06, 2021 at 07:43 PM (#6056441)
It amazes me how Allie Reynolds manages to get any HoF consideration whatsoever. He actually got six votes — more than any other non-NeL candidate in his category this time around — and apparently came within a vote of being enshrined when he was on a Veteran’s Committee ballot in 2009, though he hasn’t gotten nearly so close since.

If he’s ever enshrined, he would be the worst pitcher in the HoF by an extremely comfortable margin. His BBRef WAR is 25.4, currently ranking him 375th overall, worse than Rube Marquand (the current worst at 32.5), Jesse Haines, and Candy Cummings. The rightly reviled Jack Morris looks like Walter Johnson compared to Reynolds at 43.5. I guess pitching for the Yankees during their glory years in the 40s and 50s and winning 182 games is enough to impress some gullible voters. He’d be a Harold Baines level mistake, possibly worse.

Unbelievable.
   83. Howie Menckel Posted: December 06, 2021 at 08:07 PM (#6056445)
Reynolds pitched to the score, I figure - of course, the Yankees score tended to be high on most days so it wasn't difficult to do, lol

in 1947-49, with ERA+s of 110, 108, and 101, his combined W-L mark was 52-21 (!).

   84. dark Posted: December 06, 2021 at 09:04 PM (#6056452)
I’m happy for all of the inductees. O’Neil, Fowler, and Miñoso are the only ones in my personal Hall, but Oliva is reasonably close & both Hodges/Kaat have a baseball lifer status augmenting their reasonably close playing careers, and have their supporters. I think from a player-only POV the standards drop, but I am OK with that as long as Boyer, Allen, Dewey, Whitaker, etc. are also soon inducted.
   85. Walt Davis Posted: December 06, 2021 at 09:32 PM (#6056456)
If I did stathead right -- must be an easier way but here are a few ... I clearly do something different, I get Kaat with just 323 QS, 62 L, 51 NDs

Sutton 460 QS ("all-time" leader) with 85 L and 98 NDs
Bunning 63 L, 54 NDs
Tanana 66 L, 69 NDs
Koosman 60 L, 55 NDs
Reuschel 69 L, 73 NDs
D Martinez 58 L, 71 NDs

Nothing special about Kaat's totals.

Ahh, they used 3 earned runs ... I used the wrong definition of 3 R. Still nothing special, the other guys mentioned above are similar. Let me add John (using the 3 ER definition) at 88 L and 85 ND.

Your "all-time" top 5 in QS (3 ER):

Sutton 483
Ryan 481
Maddux 480
Clemens 465
Perry 456

As to how easy it is, even Madduz did it only 65% of the time. Near as I can tell, the career leader in 6-6.2 IP, exactly 3 ER is Moyer with 41 (a high-scoring era) ... and #2 is Kaat with 40. Lots of guys from sillyball in the 30s but Tanana 32, John 30, Reuschel 27, Sutton 26 from our Kaat comps. (might have missed somebody)
   86. The Honorable Ardo Posted: December 07, 2021 at 12:30 AM (#6056470)
Only Minoso is in the Hall of Merit, but it's not as if any of these people are Harold Baines, either. Hodges/Teixeira is a *really* good comp.

It would've been interesting to see Hodges's career arc if he wasn't on a team with Roy Campanella and Bruce Edwards. Would he have stuck longer as a catcher? Victor Martinez comes to mind.
   87. baxter Posted: December 07, 2021 at 01:37 AM (#6056473)
I think of Hodges as a big home run hitter if I remember correctly that he was listed in "Kings of the Home Run" by Daley.

Looking on wikipedia, he apparently was 10th all time in HR MLB upon his retirement; 2nd only to Foxx among righties; held the NL record; also had a large # of assists and DP's at 1b.

Obviously many players have eclipsed him. But, 10th all time in HR seems like a hall worthy number.

Although, I also think I read in Bobby Thomson's obit that he was 25th all time in HR upon his retirement. Staten Island Scot is a great nickname, but he falls quite short.

Good for Oliva & Kaat to be able to appreciate the honor.
   88. Jack Sommers Posted: December 07, 2021 at 02:03 AM (#6056474)
I get 11 th when using Stathead Which doesn’t quite have the same ring as 10th but the point is still valid

   89. McCoy Posted: December 07, 2021 at 07:18 AM (#6056480)
Hodges never cracked the top 10 all time for homers and while he was playing it was quite clear that home run totals were going to get quickly dwarfed. He played during the era when the 500 club was forming.
   90. dark Posted: December 07, 2021 at 09:33 AM (#6056487)
Hodges did crack the top-10, as of the end of the 1962 season. The reason that’s often conflated with his retirement is because he hit no more homers in 1963 and retired in May - but Willie Mays hit 4 in April to pass him for 10th place and bump him to 11th at the time of his retirement, and third among RHH.
   91. Jack Sommers Posted: December 07, 2021 at 10:35 AM (#6056493)
My comment in #75 was implying the talent distribution was a little lean at first base during the 50's.

4 WAR first basemen per season by decade (Pre expansion)

1920's =38
1930's =54
1940's =32
1950's =24

Also there was just 1 in 1948, and none in 1949, so the "decline" at the position started in 1948. That was Hodges first full time season, but he didn't start his run of good seasons until 1949.

Better historians than I can address the ebb and flow of talent distribution across the different positions over these decades, and the causes thereof.

But Hodges was the best first baseman for a decade during a decade in which there weren't that many great fist basemen. It happens.
   92. John DiFool2 Posted: December 07, 2021 at 10:40 AM (#6056494)
A very good comp for Oliva is Puckett. Note I don't think either should get any extra credit for what they "could" have done absent their health issues.

The big issue now is that the two electoral bodies have vastly different standards. I no longer know what a HoFer is (and roids just makes it worse).
   93. Ziggy: social distancing since 1980 Posted: December 07, 2021 at 11:29 AM (#6056498)
The big issue now is that the two electoral bodies have vastly different standards. I no longer know what a HoFer is


Chick Hafey, Freddie Lindstrom, Ross Youngs, Rube Marquard, Tommy McCarthy. A hall of famer is, and always has been, someone who was really good at baseball or... some random dude. (Yeah, I know the first three are Frisch's fault. But the point is that nonsense like that has always been going on.)
   94. The Duke Posted: December 07, 2021 at 11:29 AM (#6056499)
Of course the committees will have different standards (and objectives ). If you wanted the same standards you’d put 16 baseball writers on and in all likelihood no one would ever get in via the vets committee. I think it’s great to have other people in the game assess the near misses with a different lens. Managers, historians, general managers and hall of famers have a unique view on value which is largely divorced from counting stats and WAR.

It’s clear this group of voters likes long term compilers. Baines and Kaat are similar in that vein. I do too. I’m partial to guys who can play at an elite level well past their prime. They also do a Better job of assessing their non-playing value (Buck O’Neill , Minoso, Kaat and Hodges )

I also think that they understand the issue that the writers won’t necessarily elect anyone again this year which is why we got six. So their objective is likely a little bit different than the writers.

Finally, it will be the vets committees who will put in the ‘roiders. So you may not like them now but all the guys who have been missing like Bonds will eventually get in via the vets committee - then everyone will love them.
   95. Eddo Posted: December 07, 2021 at 12:20 PM (#6056503)
Dear lord, Minoso led the league in hit by pitch every year from 1951 to 1961 (inclusive), except for 55. Did he go around running over pitchers' dogs? Was he wearing a baseball magnet?

Jose Abreu's been following in Minoso's footsteps as a star Cuban player for the Sox. His rank in HBP for his career: 4th-2nd-2nd-3rd-n/a-5th-n/a-3rd.
   96. SoSH U at work Posted: December 07, 2021 at 12:40 PM (#6056505)

Dear lord, Minoso led the league in hit by pitch every year from 1951 to 1961 (inclusive), except for 55. Did he go around running over pitchers' dogs?


Not many players are that HBP magnetic, but high HBP totals have always been more about the batter than the pitcher. The HBP is a part of some guys' offensive profiles, while other guys take great pains to avoid them (David Ortiz was particularly skillful at dodging inside pitches, of which he faced a lot).

   97. Dr. Chaleeko Posted: December 07, 2021 at 12:45 PM (#6056508)
The VC will assess Bonds, but if Bud Selig is on the committee, as he was the two this year, I wouldn’t bet on Bonds making it.
   98. Tom Nawrocki Posted: December 07, 2021 at 12:46 PM (#6056509)
I'm not trying to be the turd in the punchbowl here, but I would like to see a little more discussion of exactly what qualifies Buck O'Neil as a Hall of Famer. None of the individual elements of his career are all that special: as a player he was sort of the Negro Leagues' Mickey Vernon, he was the first African-American coach in the white leagues but only lasted in that job for two seasons, he was successful as a scout but no moreso than dozens of other scouts. His strongest qualification seemed to be that everyone loved him, which is a great thing but not exactly a Hall of Fame recommendation.

He seems to be another step towards turning the Hall of Fame into the Hall of Guys We Really, Really Like, which is why we get Harold Baines and Gil Hodges in there but not Barry Bonds.
   99. SoSH U at work Posted: December 07, 2021 at 12:56 PM (#6056510)
I'm not trying to be the turd in the punchbowl here, but I would like to see a little more discussion of exactly what qualifies Buck O'Neil as a Hall of Famer. None of the individual elements of his career are all that special: as a player he was sort of the Negro Leagues' Mickey Vernon, he was the first African-American coach in the white leagues but only lasted in that job for two seasons, he was successful as a scout but no moreso than dozens of other scouts. His strongest qualification seemed to be that everyone loved him, which is a great thing but not exactly a Hall of Fame recommendation.


It's OK. Everybody needs to embrace their inner Ray from time to time.

I've always wanted to see the Hall adopt a contributors category, which would allow a player's entire contribution to the sport to be considered. In that case, Buck's an easy choice (in addition to the stuff you listed, you would include his work with the Negro League Hall of Fame).

But until that happens, he's not really qualified.

Finally, it will be the vets committees who will put in the ‘roiders.


It will have to be, and it might happen someday. But I don't see any reason to believe the Vets Committee will be in a hurry to vote in the PED guys (McGwire got no support the only time he made a ballot), with or without Bud Selig on the panel. There's nothing we've seen from them to suggest their attitudes on the subject are any different than the writers'.

On the other hand, Bonds and Clemens will be a little different than McGwire, as they received vastly more BBWAA support than Big Mac did (as well as the whole admission vs. denial thing, though that doesn't seem to mean all that much).
   100. DL from MN Posted: December 07, 2021 at 01:00 PM (#6056511)
I've always wanted to see the Hall adopt a contributors category, which would allow a player's entire contribution to the sport to be considered. In that case, Buck's an easy choice (in addition to the stuff you listed, you would include his work with the Negro League Hall of Fame).


You mean like the Buck O'Neil Lifetime Achievement Award?
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