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Tuesday, January 31, 2023

MLB expansion: Nashville group led by Dave Stewart makes a pitch for Music City [$]

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Music City Baseball considers the music industry a vital cog in the franchise’s success. Loar envisioned the ballpark as only a portion of the appeal for the complex, a multi-purpose space complete with shops and restaurants. There would also be concert spaces which could host artist residencies akin to those found in Las Vegas, where successful acts can play for weeks at a time. “You can’t really just build it around baseball,” Loar said. “It has to be something more than that.”

Loar’s son, Connor, who manages strategic partnerships for the group, pointed to The Battery in Atlanta, Busch Stadium’s Ballpark Village and the revamped Wrigleyville as models. “It’s essentially doing that, but making it Nashville,” Connor Loar said. “Making it Music City, making the venue be like the place to go to.”

The ongoing assessment of the site at Tennessee State is expected to last several months, according to Edward Henley, the project executive from Pillars Development who is conducting the survey. The money for the stadium will have to come from private investors, from all the people making “soft commitments” to Stewart. “A hard commitment would be writing a check,” Loar quipped. Which the group cannot yet request — but at some point, they will need them. Loar does not expect to receive public subsidies for construction.

So Stewart has to sell the vision. The group has prioritized assembling a diverse ownership group. Stewart, a Black man from Oakland, has been vocal about the homogeneity of the ownership class in baseball. There are no majority Black ownership groups in the sport. Stewart splits his time between canvassing potential investors and meeting the current MLB owners. (Asked how many of the owners had complained to him about starting pitchers not being able to go deep into games, Stewart said four. “I always tell them a Bob Gibson story: He said your best chance to win a baseball game is let your starting pitcher go as deep as he can.”)

RoyalsRetro (AG#1F) Posted: January 31, 2023 at 10:17 AM | 46 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
Tags: expansion, nashville

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1. Der-K's no Kliph Nesteroff. Posted: January 31, 2023 at 10:36 AM (#6115262)

this was part of series on 4 cities that would like a team: portland, montreal, and las vegas are the other 3.

2. SoSH U at work Posted: January 31, 2023 at 10:42 AM (#6115265)

I think this Music City idea will work better if Annie Lennox is also on board.

3. cookiedabookie Posted: January 31, 2023 at 10:57 AM (#6115266)

Radical realignment with four divisions of 8 teams:

West: SEA, OAK, SFG, LAA, LAD, SDP, ARI, COL
South: TEX, HOU, TBR, MIA, ATL, KCR, STL, San Antonio or Charlotte
Midwest: MIN, MIL, CIN, CLE, DET, PIT, CHC, CWS
East: TOR, NYY, NYM, BOS, PHI, BAL, WSN, Montreal

Top spot in each division gets a buy. First round of playoffs includes highest ranked 2 vs lowest ranked 3, and lowest 2 vs highest 3. Second round is seeded based on record.

4. DL from MN Posted: January 31, 2023 at 11:07 AM (#6115268)

I think this Music City idea will work better if Annie Lennox is also on board.

Starship does not approve of the plan.

5. A triple short of the cycle

Posted: January 31, 2023 at 12:00 PM (#6115273)

But... We built this city (Nashville) on rock and roll?

6. A triple short of the cycle

Posted: January 31, 2023 at 12:06 PM (#6115274)

I heard a radio commercial yesterday for an upcoming concert tour by some country artists - didn't recognize the artists' names - and the audio clips had autotune on the vocals. Is this a thing in country music now too?

7. Starring Bradley Scotchman as RMc Posted: January 31, 2023 at 01:38 PM (#6115280)

Radical realignment with four divisions of 8 teams

Naah. More likely you'll get 8 divisions of 4 teams, like the NFL.

8. DL from MN Posted: January 31, 2023 at 01:48 PM (#6115281)

Naah. More likely you'll get 8 divisions of 4 teams, like the NFL.

It is a good idea to have all the teams in a division in the same time zone so the TV show is on at the same time every night.

9. SoSH U at work Posted: January 31, 2023 at 01:54 PM (#6115283)

It is a good idea to have all the teams in a division in the same time zone so the TV show is on at the same time every night.

With Charlotte instead of SA above, you could do that for every division except the four-teamer Colorado plays in.

10. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: January 31, 2023 at 02:09 PM (#6115287)

I think realignment would pretty much finish off the last vestiges of my interest in MLB as a live product. It will simply become the stats generator for fantasy and sim baseball.

11. Walt Davis Posted: January 31, 2023 at 02:40 PM (#6115296)

this was part of series on 4 cities that would like a team

Oakland would like a major-league team.

I have mostly pooh-poohed this grand ideas of ballpark complex development. But something about those "Vegas-style residencies" has my brain wondering: I think we all kinda know the old, traditional sports model is on its last legs. Cable/TV are disappearing, gambling is the revenue source now, league revenues are increasingly about national broadcasts and the playoffs, the actual Vegas seems a viable market now. If every team gets $230 M in revenue then local revenue becomes less important anyway. And of course, in terms of popularity and cultural nous, baseball lags behind football and even basketball now and it's an old fuddy-duddy sport.

So maybe the future of baseball entertainment is to be a "Vegas-style residency" for the blue-haired tourist. Are the Oak Ridge Boys still alive?

EDIT: And the God-fearing All-American family tourists of course.

12. Ziggy: social distancing since 1980 Posted: January 31, 2023 at 02:44 PM (#6115298)

the last vestiges of my interest in MLB as a live product

13. Karl from NY Posted: January 31, 2023 at 02:47 PM (#6115299)

Radical realignment with four divisions of 8 teams

Naah. More likely you'll get 8 divisions of 4 teams, like the NFL.

The NHL does have four of 8 each.

But I doubt baseball would be able to agree on that. Who else is going to sign up to be in an 8-team East with NYY, NYM, BOS? It would be much easier to create two new 4-team divisions by luring them out of existing ones, which is essentially how the NFL went from 6 to 8.

14. SoSH U at work Posted: January 31, 2023 at 02:47 PM (#6115300)

It can be an aesthetic experience as much as a fandom one.

I'm sure the aesthetic experience is a large part of the reason his interest is waning.

15. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: January 31, 2023 at 02:59 PM (#6115302)

You don't have to care about who wins or loses to enjoy watching a baseball game. I've 94% given up on having a favorite team, but still enjoy a well-executed curve ball, or a close play at second. It can be an aesthetic experience as much as a fandom one.

Part of the problem is the aesthetics of the product sucked. If this was 1980s baseball with 2:30 game times, .260 league BA, 5 K/9 and 0.8 HR/9 I could enjoy the game for the sake of the game. I don't like the modern game as baseball.

16. John Reynard Posted: January 31, 2023 at 05:49 PM (#6115333)

Baseball was better with more fielding plays. The massive rise in the number of Ks and HR hasn't made it more aesthetically pleasing, even if I am impressed by some of the new-fangled pitches like sweepers.

TTO is a fine winning strategy. It even lets you use oafs at 2B. But, its not as fun to watch as 70/80s MLB.

Part of MLB's problem is being less well run than the NFL. Part of the problem is that the NFL is built for TV and MLB was built for radio. But, part of the problem is MLB has become less aesthetically pleasing to watch.

I didn't even mention game length here. Length is irrelevant if people enjoy what they're watching.

17. Doug Jones threw harder than me Posted: February 01, 2023 at 10:57 AM (#6115387)

I didn't even mention game length here. Length is irrelevant if people enjoy what they're watching.

Baseball is best if played every day, which means you (ideally) have fans in the stands every day. Who have jobs and families and cannot stay out until 11:30 or midnight (accounting for traveling home) for a game that started at 7. But with 3:30 game times it can happen. So people have to leave early, reducing their enjoyment, which makes them question whether to attend a subsequent game.

Part of MLB's problem is being less well run than the NFL. Part of the problem is that the NFL is built for TV and MLB was built for radio. But, part of the problem is MLB has become less aesthetically pleasing to watch.

All of the above.

18. Greg Pope Posted: February 01, 2023 at 11:24 AM (#6115390)

Yeah, game length is not completely irrelevant. But it is less important than pace. And if the pace picks up, then the length will be fixed, too.

19. It's regretful that PASTE was able to get out Posted: February 01, 2023 at 01:11 PM (#6115399)

gambling is the revenue source now

Which sooner or later is inevitably going to turn sports into WWE-style "sports-entertainment" with predetermined outcomes. With this much money at stake, it's inescapable.

20. SoSH U at work Posted: February 01, 2023 at 01:36 PM (#6115404)

Which sooner or later is inevitably going to turn sports into WWE-style "sports-entertainment" with predetermined outcomes. With this much money at stake, it's inescapable.

That doesn't seem remotely likely, let alone inescapable.

21. Starring Bradley Scotchman as RMc Posted: February 01, 2023 at 06:15 PM (#6115437)

Radical realignment with four divisions of 8 teams

Naah. More likely you'll get 8 divisions of 4 teams, like the NFL.

The NHL does have four of 8 each.

Baseball has tried to be like the NFL since at least the 70s, whereas they've tried to be like the NHL since never.

OK, let's move the A's to Vegas and give new teams to Nashville and Montreal, just for fun:

AL East: NYY, TOR, BAL, BOS
AL Central: TBR, NAS, CLE, DET
AL Midwest: CWS, MIN, KCR, HOU
AL West: TEX, SEA, LAA, LVA

NL East: NYM, PHI, MON, PIT
NL South: MIA, ATL, WAS, CIN
NL Central: CHC, STL, MIL, COL
NL West: LAD, SDP, SFG, ARZ

Well, that's...pretty awful, actually. Never mind. (At least the Mets and the Pirates are in the same division again!)

22. Where have you gone Brady Anderson? Posted: February 01, 2023 at 09:12 PM (#6115456)

AL East: BOS, NYY, BAL, TBR (can move Tampa to Montreal or Charlotte if needed)
AL North: CLE, DET, CHW, MIN
AL West: SEA, LAA, OAK, Las Vegas (expansion) (can move Oakland to Portland if needed)
AL South: HOU, TEX, KCR, COL

NL East: NYM, PHI, WAS, PIT
NL North: CHC, STL, MIL, TOR
NL West: SFG, LAD, SDP, ARI
NL South: FLA, ATL, CIN, Nashville (expansion)

You would need to get Toronto and Colorado to agree to switch leagues, but I think this could work.

23. Jay Seaver Posted: February 01, 2023 at 09:46 PM (#6115459)

I think you really want Toronto and Montreal in the same division, even if it means pushing Baltimore out of the AL East. They're just far apart and antagonistic enough to be a natural rivalry.

24. NaOH Posted: February 01, 2023 at 09:54 PM (#6115460)

AL East: BOS, NYY, BAL, TBR (can move Tampa to Montreal or Charlotte if needed)
AL North: CLE, DET, CHW, MIN
AL West: SEA, LAA, OAK, Las Vegas (expansion) (can move Oakland to Portland if needed)
AL South: HOU, TEX, KCR, COL

NL East: NYM, PHI, WAS, PIT
NL North: CHC, STL, MIL, TOR
NL West: SFG, LAD, SDP, ARI
NL South: FLA, ATL, CIN, Nashville (expansion)

You would need to get Toronto and Colorado to agree to switch leagues, but I think this could work.

That's nice and tight. Could also switch Toronto and Minnesota, the perk being that then all NL North teams are in the same time zone, and the AL North teams would then only have one team outside CST (instead of two CST and two EST).

25. John Northey Posted: February 02, 2023 at 10:40 PM (#6115545)

Using a map you can see some good divisions of 4...
North East: NYY, Bos, NYM, Phi (aka nuclear division)
South East: Miami, TB, Atlanta, Charlotte-Nashville (whichever gets a team)
Great Lakes: Toronto, Detroit, Cleveland, Milwaukee
Central East: Washington, Baltimore, Pittsburgh, Cincinnati
Mid-West 1: Cubs, ChiSox, KC, St Louis
Mid-West 2: Twins, Rockies, Rangers, Houston
South-West: Arizona, SD, LAD, LAA
North-West: Oakland-Vegas, SF, Seattle, Portland (expansion)

The Mid-West 2 is a mess but Minnesota and Colorado are always headaches with this. St Louis and the Cubs would insist on being in the same division.

26. DFA Posted: February 04, 2023 at 03:00 PM (#6115703)

I say go with 2 divisions of 2 leagues, end the abomination known as Interleague play. Slightly unbalanced scheduled, with more games against your division, but a home and away against other division your league. Something like:
AL East (7): Bos, NYY, NYM, Tor, Phi, Atl, Mia
AL West (7): Sea, SF, Oak, LAD, LAA, SD, Ari

NL East (8): Bal, Was, TBR, Pit, Cin, Det, Mil, Cle
NL "West" (8): StL, CHC, CHW, Min, Hou, Tex, KC, Col

This would essentially regionalize the divisions, esp the NL. Further, it groups larger markets together, though markets are fluid, and this would be difficult for the Marlins, D-backs and Royals. (Miami should stop heaving like a small market.) Of course, this is a pretty radical realignment. AL teams play interdivisional teams 7 times, intra-divisional teams roughly 18 times. NL teams play interdivisional teams 6 times each, and intra-divisional foes 16 times.

27. NaOH Posted: February 08, 2023 at 10:24 PM (#6116171)

Jim Bowden's idea for post-expansion realignment is two conferences, each with four divisions. He notes this setup could allow the current 12-team playoffs to continue, with four division winners and two wild cards from each conference. Seems like an even tighter regionalization than what DFA proposed in #26, for good or ill, which may depend on if MLB has ideas/plans for moving beyond its RSN-based focus on video distribution.

EASTERN CONFERENCE

East
Boston Red Sox
New York Mets
New York Yankees
Philadelphia Phillies

North
Cincinnati Reds
Cleveland Guardians
Detroit Tigers
Toronto Blue Jays

Mid-Atlantic
Baltimore Orioles
Charlotte expansion team
Pittsburgh Pirates
Washington Nationals

Southeast
Atlanta Braves
Miami Marlins
Nashville expansion team
Tampa Bay Rays

WESTERN CONFERENCE

Midwest
Chicago Cubs
Chicago White Sox
Milwaukee Brewers
Minnesota Twins

Southwest
Houston Astros
Kansas City Royals
St. Louis Cardinals
Texas Rangers

Pacific Coast
Colorado Rockies
Oakland/Las Vegas A’s
Seattle Mariners
San Francisco Giants

West
Arizona Diamondbacks
Los Angeles Angels
Los Angeles Dodgers
San Diego Padres

28. DL from MN Posted: February 08, 2023 at 10:42 PM (#6116174)

I don't see two-team cities lasting if you put them both in the same division. It works now because both teams are playing for a different pennant. Oakland would definitely be out. The White Sox would be next.

29. Adam Starblind Posted: February 08, 2023 at 11:43 PM (#6116180)

Realignment cure is worse than the disease. What’s the disease again?

30. Lassus Posted: February 09, 2023 at 08:21 AM (#6116203)

I'm not a businessman of any sort, but expansion seems like a pretty terrible investment for almost everyone. But I guess if one factor profits, everyone else can get ######, oh well?

31. Tony S Posted: February 09, 2023 at 08:23 AM (#6116204)

Which sooner or later is inevitably going to turn sports into WWE-style "sports-entertainment" with predetermined outcomes. With this much money at stake, it's inescapable.

That doesn't seem remotely likely, let alone inescapable.

I don't know if it's going to be *likely* in the sense that pro sports will all degenerate into WWE-type scenarios, but given pro sports' open embrace of gambling over the last few years, I do think it's only a matter of time before one or more of the major leagues gets rocked by a game-fixing scandal.

At that point, the question becomes where we go from there. If the response is "we need to crack down upon and stop this kind of thing", as baseball did in 1920, then good, competitive sports will survive. But it's equally likely that the reaction will be "we need to hide this kind of thing better".

32. My name is Votto, and I love to get Moppo Posted: February 09, 2023 at 09:25 AM (#6116214)

I heard a radio commercial yesterday for an upcoming concert tour by some country artists - didn't recognize the artists' names - and the audio clips had autotune on the vocals. Is this a thing in country music now too?

You're darn right it's a thing. Country music is mostly distinguishable from pop just by the song topic.

33. DL from MN Posted: February 09, 2023 at 09:53 AM (#6116226)

I'm not a businessman of any sort, but expansion seems like a pretty terrible investment for almost everyone. But I guess if one factor profits, everyone else can get ######, oh well?

Expansion should mostly be about opening up new markets for television. Each new pair of teams is 162 television episodes.

34. SoSH U at work Posted: February 09, 2023 at 11:27 AM (#6116241)

I don't know if it's going to be *likely* in the sense that pro sports will all degenerate into WWE-type scenarios, but given pro sports' open embrace of gambling over the last few years, I do think it's only a matter of time before one or more of the major leagues gets rocked by a game-fixing scandal.

Possibly, but widespread gambling and WWE-style outcomes that are scripted are inherently at odds.

Now, will MLB and other sports incorporate other elements of sports entertainment? Sure.

35. SoSH U at work Posted: February 09, 2023 at 11:29 AM (#6116243)

Expansion should mostly be about opening up new markets for television. Each new pair of teams is 162 television episodes.

Which is one reason why the third team in New York push has always seemed pretty silly to me.

36. cookiedabookie Posted: February 09, 2023 at 12:11 PM (#6116255)

I don't see two-team cities lasting if you put them both in the same division. It works now because both teams are playing for a different pennant. Oakland would definitely be out. The White Sox would be next.

That's a fair point DL. Maybe that makes the 8 division solution more probable.

37. Never Give an Inge (Dave) Posted: February 09, 2023 at 12:26 PM (#6116262)

I think we all kinda know the old, traditional sports model is on its last legs. Cable/TV are disappearing, gambling is the revenue source now, league revenues are increasingly about national broadcasts and the playoffs, the actual Vegas seems a viable market now.

There's really no reason this has to be true, or at least no reason that it has to be a terrible thing. Baseball may be past its peak from a revenue standpoint, but it still brings in way more money than did a decade or two ago. If revenues decline a bit there will be less money to pay players and less money to support big debt-supported team acquisitions by billionaires, but there's no reason that baseball can't survive with a smaller economic pie. You might lose some talent to other sports if salaries don't keep pace with the NFL/NBA, but I think that would have a pretty marginal effect on the quality of MLB overall.

38. TomH Posted: February 09, 2023 at 12:26 PM (#6116263)

The first thing I saw was "led by Dave Stewart". That doesn't sound like a good idea, from what I know of the man who came across clearly as thinking he was better at something than he really was.

39. DL from MN Posted: February 09, 2023 at 12:52 PM (#6116277)

there's no reason that baseball can't survive with a smaller economic pie

I'd love to see them go back to over the air broadcasts locally with streaming as the other option. Maximize the audience and the ad revenue. I'm tired of baseball playing to a decreasing number of old, rich people. Having a high dollar barrier to entry just makes it more likely people will pirate the broadcast. Accessibility will make baseball more popular. It's a better TV program than the ubiquitous talent shows and game shows.

40. Lassus Posted: February 09, 2023 at 03:47 PM (#6116340)

Expansion should mostly be about opening up new markets for television. Each new pair of teams is 162 television episodes.

Sure. More power to them, it it works. I do wonder if it will as far as teams and tepid attendance, but I'm not all up in the economic weeds. Maybe whatever mostly empty stadiums that exist for the regular season just aren't an issue?

41. Tony S Posted: February 09, 2023 at 04:39 PM (#6116349)

Possibly, but widespread gambling and WWE-style outcomes that are scripted are inherently at odds.

Scripted outcomes fronted by the illusion of honest competition is the gambling industry's nirvana.

42. DL from MN Posted: February 09, 2023 at 04:55 PM (#6116351)

Baseball is often the #1 rated TV program in a market that has an MLB team. It isn't as big of a deal in other TV markets. A national baseball game on FOX draws about 2 million viewers out of a possible 120M viewers across the country. Games on FS1 get 750,000 viewers. ESPN Sunday Night Baseball 1.5M viewers.

Cardinals games last year were drawing 200,000 households out of 1.2M available or 1/6 of the market. Viewership of a Cardinals game on cable is 10x higher than an over the air national broadcast game that doesn't involve the Cardinals and 20x-30x a game on cable not involving the Cardinals. Sports consistently gets the best ad rates because people are more likely to watch in real time.

MLB can go to the networks and say "Which TV market do you want me to increase baseball viewership by 10x (or more) by expanding?"

43. SoSH U at work Posted: February 09, 2023 at 05:35 PM (#6116355)

Scripted outcomes fronted by the illusion of honest competition is the gambling industry's nirvana.

I suppose, if they have access to the scrips.

I just know the awful woman who is ordering me to Make it Rain hasn't caught on to this bounty yet, because on the list of SportsBook odds at FanDuel, there's nothing for WWE.

44. Howie Menckel Posted: February 09, 2023 at 06:07 PM (#6116356)

Scripted outcomes fronted by the illusion of honest competition is the gambling industry's nirvana.

can you elaborate, because it seems I'm not the only one who is lost here....

45. Tony S Posted: February 10, 2023 at 08:49 AM (#6116389)

I guess I should have said "fixed" instead of "scripted".

The WWE is scripted, but it doesn't claim to be otherwise. It's not a competitive sport, and nobody perceives it as such. It's just a show. So, obviously, there are no betting lines, just as there aren't any on Broadway productions.

Pro sports leagues with fixed outcomes, but which *do* pretend to be featuring legitimate competition, are free money for the gambling industry.

And the idea that there's this wall of separation between pro sports and gambling interests is naive at best, unless one believes that the weekly NFL injury reports are For Entertainment Only.

I'm not saying any of the major league pro leagues are fixed. Not at this point. But their all-in embrace of gambling interests doesn't inspire confidence that it will remain that way.

46. Pat Rapper's Delight (as quoted on MLB Network) Posted: February 10, 2023 at 10:15 AM (#6116398)

I'm not saying any of the major league pro leagues are fixed. Not at this point. But their all-in embrace of gambling interests doesn't inspire confidence that it will remain that way.

Future Hall of Famer Rob Manfred, no doubt, is certainly considering it.

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Tuesday, January 31, 2023

MLB expansion: Nashville group led by Dave Stewart makes a pitch for Music City [$]

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