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Wednesday, July 29, 2009

MLB: Giants acquire Sanchez from Pirates

The Giants have scheduled a 4 p.m. PT news conference Wednesday at AT&T Park to announce the acquisition of second baseman Freddy Sanchez from the Pittsburgh Pirates.

For Sanchez, joining the Giants was a matter of walking from one clubhouse to the other. San Francisco completed a three-game sweep of Pittsburgh with a 1-0 victory Wednesday.

Sanchez, a three-time All-Star and the National League’s 2006 batting champion, didn’t play in the series due to a sore left knee. That reportedly threatened to scuttle the deal, but Giants management obviously decided to go ahead with the move.

The Giants were believed to have parted with right-hander Tim Alderson, one of their top pitching prospects.

Repoz Posted: July 29, 2009 at 11:24 PM | 94 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
  Tags: giants, pirates

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   1. puck Posted: July 29, 2009 at 11:29 PM (#3273062)
Cross posted (and slightly edited) from the other thread:

What would the Giants have done if they'd made no trade? I assume they'd have played Uribe everyday at 2nd.

Since he seems like a better defensive 2B than Sanchez, is this much of a upgrade? It doesn't seem like a 1 win upgrade, though, given the rest of season zips projections on fangraphs. Granted, with the Giants a half game up on the WC, every win counts.
   2. VegasRobb Posted: July 29, 2009 at 11:30 PM (#3273064)
How does Alderson compare to Drabek? It seems like the Giants pushed in all of their chips.
   3. HGH Positive Posted: July 29, 2009 at 11:32 PM (#3273069)
Nice job by Pitt.

Alderson would have been the best prospect sent to CLE if he was involved.
   4. Tripon Posted: July 29, 2009 at 11:33 PM (#3273072)
6:19pm: Kovacevic says that no money is being exchanged in the Sanchez deal, which makes it all the more impressive for the Pirates. Keith Law (Insider) recently ranked the 20-year-old Alderson the 26th-best prospect in all of baseball.
   5. 6 - 4 - 3 Posted: July 29, 2009 at 11:33 PM (#3273074)
Drabek's a better prospect. But that's not really the point.

Who were the Giants competing against to get Sanchez? The Felipe Lopez trade set the market for above-average 2nd a few weeks ago--and Alderson is well above that price.
   6. Alex_Lewis Posted: July 29, 2009 at 11:34 PM (#3273079)
What would the Giants have done if they'd made no trade? I assume they'd have played Uribe everyday at 2nd.

Since he seems like a better defensive 2B than Sanchez, is this much of a upgrade? It doesn't seem like a 1 win upgrade, though, given the rest of season zips projections on fangraphs. Granted, with the Giants a half game up on the WC, every win counts.


Also cross posted, and edited for length:

Uribe is fat and he sucks. Sanchez will be an improvement if he plays even half-way decent.
   7. Crispix Attacksel Rios Posted: July 29, 2009 at 11:35 PM (#3273081)
Does Uribe only "seem like a better defensive 2B" because he's a worse offensive 2B?
   8. Bhaakon Posted: July 29, 2009 at 11:35 PM (#3273082)
Since he seems like a better defensive 2B than Sanchez, is this much of a upgrade? It doesn't seem like a 1 win upgrade, though, given the rest of season zips projections on fangraphs. Granted, with the Giants a half game up on the WC, every win counts.


There are two responses to this. 1) I'm sceptical of Uribe's ability to maintain his hitting, he simply hasn't done this the last four seasons. 2) It really depends on whether the Giants have the cajones to sit Renteria's contract and his .623 OPS on the bench and slide Uribe over to short.
   9. Tripon Posted: July 29, 2009 at 11:36 PM (#3273083)

Who were the Giants competing against to get Sanchez? The Felipe Lopez trade set the market for above-average 2nd a few weeks ago--and Alderson is well above that price.


I heard the Twins wanted Sanchez too, but I doubt they would have given anything close to what the Giants gave up.
   10. spivey Posted: July 29, 2009 at 11:37 PM (#3273086)
Sanchez at least has the reputation of being a good defender. Someone mentioned in the other thread that Sanchez is under contract next year too. If that's true, I don't think the deal is terrible for SF - but I still prefer the Pirates end of it. If Sanchez is a FA, I think SF got taken to the cleaners.

2B was a huge hole for SF, though.
   11. Mattbert Posted: July 29, 2009 at 11:37 PM (#3273087)
Neal Huntington does not #### around, does he?
   12. Joey B. is counting the days to Trea Turner Posted: July 29, 2009 at 11:39 PM (#3273090)
Someone here said it a few days ago, but it bears repeating: the Pirates organization is a disgrace.
   13. spivey Posted: July 29, 2009 at 11:39 PM (#3273091)
Does Uribe only "seem like a better defensive 2B" because he's a worse offensive 2B?


Well Uribe used to be a very good defensive shortstop. So, I think those types of guys generally coast on reputation a lot - especially if they change positions. The thinking being that they can afford to lose a step moving off the position, and if they were good at SS then they're probably still good even with a lost step.
   14. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: July 29, 2009 at 11:40 PM (#3273093)
Neal Huntington does not #### around, does he?

Not like he has any fans left to piss off. Why not tear it down completely. Save the money for when you've built a core, and operate at a loss for a few years when you're competitive.
   15. puck Posted: July 29, 2009 at 11:41 PM (#3273094)
Uribe is fat and he sucks


Funny you mention this. I caught a Rockies-Giants game this weekend and had an upper deck seat. I had been distracted and then looked down and thought Kung fu panda was running to first, but then I realized it was Uribe.
   16. McCoy Posted: July 29, 2009 at 11:41 PM (#3273095)
The era of great trade Chicago trades with Pitt appears to be over. At the very least it looks like the brass over there know at least something about their job. Tis a pity to lose such a loyal and prosperous minor league team.
   17. Tripon Posted: July 29, 2009 at 11:42 PM (#3273096)
Sanchez has an option for $8 million next year.
   18. Shooty would run in but these bone spurs hurt! Posted: July 29, 2009 at 11:42 PM (#3273098)
Alderson? WTF are the Giants thinking? That's terrible. Terrible trade for SF. Boo!
   19. puck Posted: July 29, 2009 at 11:44 PM (#3273101)
Does Uribe only "seem like a better defensive 2B" because he's a worse offensive 2B?


Well, there's what spivey mentioned--shortstop sliding over to 2nd. But what prompted that statement is that his UZR seems consistent with him being at least equal to Sanchez.
   20. cHiEf iMpaCt oFfiCEr JE Posted: July 29, 2009 at 11:44 PM (#3273103)
The Giants have scheduled a 4 p.m. PT news conference Wednesday at AT&T;Park to announce the acquisition of second baseman Freddy Sanchez from the Pittsburgh Pirates.


...and accuse Adam Rubin of inquiring about a player personnel job in San Francisco's organization.
   21. Raskolnikov Posted: July 29, 2009 at 11:45 PM (#3273106)
The Pirates taking someone else to the cleaners? Impressive. By far the most lopsided trade since ... the Lee to the Phils trade.
   22. Chase Insteadman Wannabe Posted: July 29, 2009 at 11:47 PM (#3273111)
Someone here said it a few days ago, but it bears repeating: the Pirates organization is a disgrace.

That might be true, but this was a really good trade for Pittsburgh.
   23. Stop Oppressing Zonk by Investigating His Heroes Posted: July 29, 2009 at 11:48 PM (#3273112)
Soooo...

Yes, yes.. WC, bad trade, yada yada... onto important things.

Who gets the ABs for the Bucs up the middle?

Cedeno seems a lock to make the lion's share of outs at SS. Using 32 yo Vazquez at 2B is a waste. Bixler?
   24. Greg K Posted: July 29, 2009 at 11:49 PM (#3273117)
Someone here said it a few days ago, but it bears repeating: the Pirates organization is a disgrace.


I feel like I'm missing something.
Of course, the Pirates are a pretty pathetic franchise, but this statement kind of seems out of place in this thread. Aren't the Pirates taking the Giants to the cleaners in this trade? (Or do I just have an inflated opinion of Alderson? That guy seems pretty awesome)

EDIT: Ouch, #22 beat me to it, and to add insult to injury #21 beat me to the cliche
   25. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: July 29, 2009 at 11:51 PM (#3273120)
Someone here said it a few days ago, but it bears repeating: the Pirates organization is a disgrace.

Well, duh. It took them 15 years of hard work to have this shitty a system.

Given the smoking wreckage of a system Huntington inherited, it's going to take a while to build out it. At least they seem to have stopped paying averagish players big money.
   26. Bring Me the Head of Alfredo Griffin (Vlad) Posted: July 29, 2009 at 11:52 PM (#3273122)
"Sanchez at least has the reputation of being a good defender."

He's a good defender when healthy, and a bad defender when playing hurt. Which is why his numbers generally look average-ish for the year.

He was a VERY good defender at 3B, if the Giants want to use him there at some point. Like, +10 to +20 good.

"Sanchez has an option for $8 million next year."

A vesting option based on PT, which is likely to vest in the absence of a serious injury. And it's actually a hair over $8M (8.1, maybe?).
   27. Lassus Posted: July 29, 2009 at 11:53 PM (#3273124)
Uribe is fat and he sucks

Where IS robinred when you need him?
   28. Crispix Attacksel Rios Posted: July 29, 2009 at 11:53 PM (#3273125)
Sanchez has an option for $8 million next year.

And it gets picked up automatically if he gets 600 PAs this year. He currently has 382.
   29. Bring Me the Head of Alfredo Griffin (Vlad) Posted: July 29, 2009 at 11:54 PM (#3273127)
"The era of great trade Chicago trades with Pitt appears to be over. At the very least it looks like the brass over there know at least something about their job. Tis a pity to lose such a loyal and prosperous minor league team."

How many trades with the Cubs are we talking about here? Two, right? One of which involved the Cubs getting Randall Simon?

That's quite the era, there.
   30. It's regretful that PASTE was able to get out Posted: July 29, 2009 at 11:54 PM (#3273128)
Dammit, they should have held out for Posey.
   31. Alex_Lewis Posted: July 29, 2009 at 11:55 PM (#3273132)
I'm not really an Alderson guy; pretty sure he's been overrated on the internet, by BA, etc. I can talk myself into this not being horrible.
   32. Bring Me the Head of Alfredo Griffin (Vlad) Posted: July 29, 2009 at 11:55 PM (#3273134)
"Cedeno seems a lock to make the lion's share of outs at SS. Using 32 yo Vazquez at 2B is a waste. Bixler?"

Probably some mix of Vazquez and Bixler, yes, barring another trade that brings back a 2B or SS.

Bixler is God-awful, but I can put up with a couple of months of him getting the bat knocked out of his hands if Alderson is the reward at the end of it.
   33. bumpis hound Posted: July 29, 2009 at 11:55 PM (#3273135)
Wow, everyone here loves the whole TINSTAAPP thing unless it pertains to Sabean, who knows as much or more about good young pitching than any of his peers. As far as we know, Alderson had as much chance becoming Ainsworth or Foppert as he does Lincecum Lite. To me, this is probably a fair trade, not as one sided as most here seem to think. And it's not like the Giants don't have good MiL arms by the gross; Alderson is by no means fungible, but he's not the only star prospect in the system. Meanwhile, in the real, Major League world, the Giants are fighting for the shrinking entertainment dollar, organizational respectability, and hitters with the ability to not make quick outs. Seems like a good gamble by Sabean.
   34. Bring Me the Head of Alfredo Griffin (Vlad) Posted: July 29, 2009 at 11:55 PM (#3273136)
"Dammit, they should have held out for Posey."

ROFL.
   35. Tripon Posted: July 29, 2009 at 11:57 PM (#3273142)
Isn't the thing that killed Ainsworth and Foppert injuries?

Unless Alderson's blows out his pitching arm, he's going to be pitch on the major league level.
   36. Padraic Posted: July 30, 2009 at 12:00 AM (#3273145)
The Pirates now have less than $15M commited to '10 payroll

The Phillies have $106M.

That is one long trip across Alabama.
   37. spivey Posted: July 30, 2009 at 12:00 AM (#3273146)
Wow, everyone here loves the whole TINSTAAPP thing unless it pertains to Sabean

Anyone that says this loses all credibility when talking prospects imo. It has absolutely no basis in reality.
   38. It's regretful that PASTE was able to get out Posted: July 30, 2009 at 12:01 AM (#3273148)
Vlad - that was for Crispix's benefit. I can't just come right out and admit I unequivocally love a trade the Pirates made.

Looks like the Altoona Curve have a new ace. Anyone know when he's slated to start next? If you say 'Friday' I will be your new best friend.
   39. Shooty would run in but these bone spurs hurt! Posted: July 30, 2009 at 12:01 AM (#3273149)
Wow, everyone here loves the whole TINSTAAPP thing unless it pertains to Sabean,

I don't think anyone here believes in TINSTAAP.
   40. It's regretful that PASTE was able to get out Posted: July 30, 2009 at 12:05 AM (#3273152)
Anyway, this still doesn't make the Giants and Pirates even over Matt Morris.
   41. Bring Me the Head of Alfredo Griffin (Vlad) Posted: July 30, 2009 at 12:05 AM (#3273153)
"Vlad - that was for Crispix's benefit. I can't just come right out and admit I unequivocally love a trade the Pirates made."

I figured. That's why I was laughing so hard.
   42. DKDC Posted: July 30, 2009 at 12:06 AM (#3273155)
I think Alderson is pretty overrated, but this is still a really good trade for the Pirates. I like what they've done today.
   43. Alex_Lewis Posted: July 30, 2009 at 12:07 AM (#3273156)
Looks like the Altoona Curve have a new ace. Anyone know when he's slated to start next? If you say 'Friday' I will be your new best friend.


I think Alderson had his turn today, if I'm not mistaken. He was traded before he could take the mound. That could mean tomorrow, that could mean Friday. Could very well be Friday!

So, do you want to hang out?
   44. bumpis hound Posted: July 30, 2009 at 12:07 AM (#3273157)
I don't think anyone here believes in TINSTAAP.

Woops, look at the hound's buttons get pushed.

I do see the acronym bandied about a fair amount around here, but i acknowledge that it's probably used tongue in cheek more often than not.
   45. It's regretful that PASTE was able to get out Posted: July 30, 2009 at 12:11 AM (#3273160)
I think Alderson had his turn today, if I'm not mistaken. He was traded before he could take the mound. That could mean tomorrow, that could mean Friday. Could very well be Friday!

So, do you want to hang out?


LOL, thanks.

Tonight's game got rained out, so there's a doubleheader tomorrow. Kinda doubt they'll get Alderson out there that quickly, so Friday seems like a good bet.
   46. 6 - 4 - 3 Posted: July 30, 2009 at 12:15 AM (#3273162)
Pitching prospects may have more risk than hitting prospects because of injuries, but TINSTAAP is more of a joke than a serious principal on which to base personnel decisions.

Is there a chance that Alderson never achieves success in the majors? Certainly. But the chances that records some degree of success are quite high.

I don't buy this idea that the Giants have a true surplus of pitching. Beyond 2009, Cain, Lincecum, and Zito are sure bets for the rotation. Johnson will be gone. Sanchez should be traded (he will never have sufficiently consistent command to be successful over an extended period of time). Sadowski is roster filler. MB should get a long look for start of 2010. So they still could have had a spot for Alderson.

I would have been happy to have traded Sanchez for Sanchez. But Alderson could have been a great, cheap #4 starter (if not better) for a half dozen seasons.
   47. Tripon Posted: July 30, 2009 at 12:17 AM (#3273164)
What does TINSTAAP stand for?
   48. rr Posted: July 30, 2009 at 12:17 AM (#3273165)
Uribe is fat and he sucks

Where IS robinred when you need him?


bunyon's mom's place.
   49. rr Posted: July 30, 2009 at 12:18 AM (#3273166)
TINSTAAP


There Is No Such Thing As A Pitching Prospect. It's a BP thing (if you are asking seriously).
   50. Dr Stankus and the Semicolons Posted: July 30, 2009 at 12:18 AM (#3273167)
Overpay, probably, but not egregiously so. I think Alderson's over rated. If they'd traded Bumgarner or Posey, then there'd be hell to pay.
   51. Steve Sparks Flying Everywhere Posted: July 30, 2009 at 12:19 AM (#3273169)
Neal Huntington is a brave man. He's basically like the guy who sold all his stuff,went to Vegas, and bet everything on one spin on the roulette wheel. If I'm a Pirates fan the next 2-3 years are going to be mighty interesting.
   52. It's regretful that PASTE was able to get out Posted: July 30, 2009 at 12:19 AM (#3273171)
As I recall, TINSTAAPP was also a shorthand for the idea that a 23 year old lighting up AAA isn't a 'pitching prospect', he's a pitcher. i.e., it's wise to get him in the majors as soon as he can handle it, and get innings out of his arm while it's still good for them.

Alderson's most likely to wind up as a mid-rotation type, a groundballer who doesn't strike many guys out but eats up innings, especially if you put a good defense behind him. But for a ceiling there's at least the potential to get an approximation of Brandon Webb, no?
   53. esseff Posted: July 30, 2009 at 12:20 AM (#3273172)
I would have been happy to have traded Sanchez for Sanchez.


Apropos of nothing, I wonder how often this has happened. Not just Sanchezes, but same names. As I recall, Ron Taylor was once traded for Chuck Taylor. I think.

What does TINSTAAP stand for?


There is no such thing as a pitching prospect. Guess that should be two p's on the end.
   54. McCoy Posted: July 30, 2009 at 12:21 AM (#3273174)
What does TINSTAAP stand for?
Tucked In Nut Sack Touched Ardently Against Penis. Or at least that is what it stood for in our fraternity.
   55. It's regretful that PASTE was able to get out Posted: July 30, 2009 at 12:21 AM (#3273175)
If I'm a Pirates Altoona Curve/Indianapolis Indians fan the next 2-3 years are going to be mighty interesting.


It's going to be a while before we know whether any of these kids they're obtaining turn out to be anything.
   56. Crispix Attacksel Rios Posted: July 30, 2009 at 12:25 AM (#3273179)
He said "interesting", not "enjoyable". Also, LOL.
   57. Ozzie's gay friend Posted: July 30, 2009 at 12:28 AM (#3273186)
It annoys me when people defend an overpay trade by pointing out that the prospect(s) involved have flaws, may be overrated, and will prob fail.
Why does this mater?

Andy Marte may suck now, but had the braves traded him for Ricardo RIncon it would have been a waste of resources.
   58. Alex_Lewis Posted: July 30, 2009 at 12:37 AM (#3273198)
It annoys me when people defend an overpay trade by pointing out that the prospect(s) involved have flaws, may be overrated, and will prob fail.
Why does this mater?


JESUS CAN'T I JUSTIFY THE TEAM I ROOT FOR WITHOUT SOME GUY TRYING TO BUTT IN WITH HIS STUPID REALITY TALK??
   59. Bring Me the Head of Alfredo Griffin (Vlad) Posted: July 30, 2009 at 12:38 AM (#3273199)
"If I'm a Pirates fan the next 2-3 years are going to be mighty interesting."

And are you? Don't keep us in suspense, man!
   60. Alex_Lewis Posted: July 30, 2009 at 12:41 AM (#3273202)
The thing that really sucks about this is that both Orlando Hudson and Felipe Lopez were available for peanuts, yet the Giants ignored them. And now both those guys are starting for teams against whom the Giants shall be actively competing. I am 100 percent certain that when the talking heads weigh in with their opinions, none of this will be mentioned.
   61. Tom is a Doofwongle Posted: July 30, 2009 at 12:49 AM (#3273212)
The problem I have always had with Alderson is that he grew up around baseball, and a big chunk of his being old for his leagues is that he is "old" in terms of baseball skills. 90% of his value is that he throws strikes, he has an absurdly low walk rate. I will trade a low walk rate for a high k rate any day. As he has risen in the minors his k rate has dropped to what 5.7 per 9 now? that is just not good enough.

I think this is what they call selling high.
   62. calhounite Posted: July 30, 2009 at 12:49 AM (#3273213)
Sabean paniked and lost his head. All the excitement over Minaya would've blown over, and people would have remembered he's still the king of the dung heap.
   63. Johnny Tuttle Posted: July 30, 2009 at 12:54 AM (#3273219)
Alex Lewis, I couldn't agree more. I'm very tired of hearing that this draft pick or that purchase or what is justified in these sorts of terms, almost justifying the event/deal/happening because it had to have happened for good reason.

Alderson has his flaws. Sanchez is quite a nice score for them and possibly better for them than Hudson/Lopez. But they paid much, much more than they had to. Fail. No matter what happens with Lopez or Alderson. This could be Alexander/Smoltz or this could be the Yankee's cost of getting Cone.

As I recall, TINSTAAPP was also a shorthand for the idea that a 23 year old lighting up AAA isn't a 'pitching prospect', he's a pitcher. i.e., it's wise to get him in the majors as soon as he can handle it, and get innings out of his arm while it's still good for them.


Agree. That was definitely a concurrent thought to the notions that any high school pitcher carries injury risk, pitcher performance in the minors needs a lot of contextualizing (seems a simple point now), and keeping arms healthy is a boon/quest. I take it as a variation on you can't have too much pitching. Agree.

The snappier, faster popular def. isn't accurate. The term likely doesn't deserve the time to qualify it like we are (I haven't Gleeman Point Average in a while either).
   64. Johnny Tuttle Posted: July 30, 2009 at 12:57 AM (#3273221)
The problem I have always had with Alderson is that he grew up around baseball, and a big chunk of his being old for his leagues is that he is "old" in terms of baseball skills. 90% of his value is that he throws strikes, he has an absurdly low walk rate. I will trade a low walk rate for a high k rate any day. As he has risen in the minors his k rate has dropped to what 5.7 per 9 now? that is just not good enough.

I think this is what they call selling high.


I've definitely read prospect hounds suspicious of the same things: that this is akin to seeing a high walk, low avg slugger in the minors and thinking you've got the new Dunn. Andy Sonnanstine likely blew people away at some point; he adjusted (Stolen thought from his BP09 blurb). Dunn had high AVG and realistic K rates in MiLB. Maybe he's just out skilling the younger, more talented folks.

Still, Alex's point is right. Maybe good sell high, but get $ back, too. Get a couple of fliers.
   65. The District Attorney Posted: July 30, 2009 at 12:59 AM (#3273224)
I made fun of this before, just because It's So Sabean! (which would make a great sitcom title), but honestly, I don't think it's that bad. I'm guessing it'd be a real (B-12?) boost for the franchise to finally make the playoffs without Bonds. Relying on Uribe would have been asking for trouble. Sanchez is a very good player. He hits well for a 2B, and he's got an excellent glove. As mentioned, they've got Lincecum, Cain, Bumgarner and Zito going forward. You can always finesse a fifth guy.

Don't get me wrong, I wouldn't have done this deal myself. But if the Giants make the playoffs and Alderson doesn't become a star, I think history will treat it well. And if they don't make the playoffs and Alderson doesn't become a star, no one will much care either way. So the weighted odds aren't awful, really.
   66. Ozzie's gay friend Posted: July 30, 2009 at 01:08 AM (#3273230)
It's not really selling high if you don't get full value for it.
   67. SteveM. Posted: July 30, 2009 at 01:12 AM (#3273237)
This has to get old if you are a Pirates fan(if there are any left). I know Sanchez and Wilson are in their early thirties and wouldn't be part of the next winning Pirate team, but after seventeen years of losing, you have to get tired of the Pirates becoming the new Kansas City A's.
   68. Spahn Insane Posted: July 30, 2009 at 01:14 AM (#3273240)
How many trades with the Cubs are we talking about here? Two, right? One of which involved the Cubs getting Randall Simon?

Well, Lieber for Brown as well.

And you don't still lie awake at night haunted by the Matt Lawton trade? :-)
   69. McCoy Posted: July 30, 2009 at 01:22 AM (#3273246)
Just like prospects not all of the Cubs farm hand down in Pittsburgh develop but enough of them do that one could probably have called Pittsburgh to be their best minor league team of the decade.
   70. base ball chick Posted: July 30, 2009 at 01:24 AM (#3273249)
i guess the pirates are trying to outdo the marlins in doing the elcheapo players thingy. will be interesting to see how this goes over with the season ticket buyers

freddy sanchez is a decent infielder, and he sure as heck is a LOT bettern uribe

in case all yall disremembering - felipe lopez has a glove of lead
   71. 6 - 4 - 3 Posted: July 30, 2009 at 01:30 AM (#3273256)
Lopez was a terrible SS, but actually a fairly good 2B.
   72. It's regretful that PASTE was able to get out Posted: July 30, 2009 at 01:46 AM (#3273270)
Sanchez's glove is average-to-below. He's consistently in the 0 to -5 area in plus/minus.

This has to get old if you are a Pirates fan(if there are any left). I know Sanchez and Wilson are in their early thirties and wouldn't be part of the next winning Pirate team, but after seventeen years of losing, you have to get tired of the Pirates becoming the new Kansas City A's.


Actually, what I was tired of was them keeping guys like Wilson and Sanchez, which is utterly pointless. I love the fact they've turned over most of the roster in a year's time and gotten some real talent back for it.
   73. It's regretful that PASTE was able to get out Posted: July 30, 2009 at 01:50 AM (#3273272)
i guess the pirates are trying to outdo the marlins in doing the elcheapo players thingy. will be interesting to see how this goes over with the season ticket buyers


You mean the Marlins that won a world championship despite having no fans, because they did an excellent job of stockpiling and developing talent and got a little lucky? You say that like it's a bad thing...
   74. BaseballObscura Posted: July 30, 2009 at 01:52 AM (#3273273)
Given that Alderson's now a Pirates prospect, what are the odds he tears his labrum within the month?
   75. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: July 30, 2009 at 02:02 AM (#3273279)
You mean the Marlins that won a world championship despite having no fans, because they did an excellent job of stockpiling and developing talent and got a little lucky? You say that like it's a bad thing...

Yeah, you combine that with a judicious expansion of the payroll to $80M when you're good, you could win a few divisions, and maybe a couple of pennants/WS.
   76. Shooty would run in but these bone spurs hurt! Posted: July 30, 2009 at 02:12 AM (#3273286)
Given that Alderson's now a Pirates prospect, what are the odds he tears his labrum within the month?

Is their a % above infinity? That + 1.

Naw, I kid. He'll be fine. A new sun shines over Pittsburgh.
   77. Rafael Bellylard: The Grinch of Orlando. Posted: July 30, 2009 at 02:18 AM (#3273289)
Naw, I kid. He'll be fine. A new sun shines over Pittsburgh.


The Pirates are in the 15th year of their 3-year plan.
   78. cardsfanboy Posted: July 30, 2009 at 02:25 AM (#3273291)
You mean the Marlins that won a world championship despite having no fans, because they did an excellent job of stockpiling and developing talent and got a little lucky? You say that like it's a bad thing...

it's a bad thing if you want to create a successful franchise, the Marlins have done a terrible job of getting their fans to return to the stadium in consecutive seasons. It's fun to win a world championship, but for a team owner it's probably more fun/profitable to create a fanbase that gives you 3million attendence per year.
   79. base ball chick Posted: July 30, 2009 at 02:34 AM (#3273297)
justin

yeh i mean the team that finally managed to get more than 50 fans in the ballpark for the last 2 weeks of the year, then got rid of most of the team the offseason/next year and settled in for another 5-6 years of suckulousness
   80. Drew (Primakov, Gungho Iguanas) Posted: July 30, 2009 at 02:37 AM (#3273302)
Nothing really wrong with this deal for either side. Alderson's upside is much higher than Sanchez's, but the Giants are trying to win now. While the Pirates had little reason to spend money keeping Sanchez.
   81. Gainsay Posted: July 30, 2009 at 02:37 AM (#3273303)
As a Pirates fan, I'm pretty happy to be getting a decent prospect in return for Sanchez. He was pretty awful last year, and has been awful for the past month after having a good start to the year. Assuming he hits his vesting option, he's not going to be a good deal at $8m for next year. I had thought this past month had driven his trade value close to nothing.
   82. Bring Me the Head of Alfredo Griffin (Vlad) Posted: July 30, 2009 at 02:40 AM (#3273306)
Well, Lieber for Brown as well.

Eleven years ago. I think we can put that one to bed at this point.
   83. The District Attorney Posted: July 30, 2009 at 02:44 AM (#3273307)
Sanchez's glove is average-to-below. He's consistently in the 0 to -5 area in plus/minus.
I'll revise "excellent" glove to "good." His UZR is very good for 1.5 of his 2.5 years as a regular at the position, and not that far below average the other year. Anyway, he's a bad SS and a great 3B, therefore I deduce he's a good 2B ;-)
   84. The Pequod Posted: July 30, 2009 at 03:33 AM (#3273337)
Neal Huntington is a brave man. He's basically like the guy who sold all his stuff,went to Vegas, and bet everything on one spin on the roulette wheel.

...if the guy was homeless and "all his stuff" was a prized bag of cans and a rusted out shopping cart.
   85. Dr Stankus and the Semicolons Posted: July 30, 2009 at 03:41 AM (#3273344)
How closely do the various prospect lists track with how actual ML scouting departments value players?
   86. Eric P. Posted: July 30, 2009 at 03:49 AM (#3273348)
Alderson's most likely to wind up as a mid-rotation type, a groundballer who doesn't strike many guys out but eats up innings, especially if you put a good defense behind him. But for a ceiling there's at least the potential to get an approximation of Brandon Webb, no?


Not sure where you got the impression of Alderson as an elite groundball guy, Justin. He's been right around one grounder for every flyout in the minors. Brandon Webb's at 3.5 to 1 for his career.
   87. It's regretful that PASTE was able to get out Posted: July 30, 2009 at 03:52 AM (#3273352)
Seriously? Am I to assume the low HR rates are a fluke, then? If so, the Giants could indeed have been selling high, even if they accepted grotesquely less than the asset was actually worth...
   88. Dr Stankus and the Semicolons Posted: July 30, 2009 at 04:00 AM (#3273358)
What I mean in #85, is that perhaps the Giants were selling high, based on his actual value set by scouting depts across the league, if not by the various prospect lists.
   89. 6 - 4 - 3 Posted: July 30, 2009 at 04:02 AM (#3273359)
How closely do the various prospect lists track with how actual ML scouting departments value players?

I think that it varies quite a bit by team. Some quite track quite well with BA's relative emphasis on tools over statistical extrapolations, others have their own ideas.
   90. Bhaakon Posted: July 30, 2009 at 04:31 AM (#3273382)
Seriously? Am I to assume the low HR rates are a fluke, then? If so, the Giants could indeed have been selling high, even if they accepted grotesquely less than the asset was actually worth...


I don't know if they're entirely fluke, but San Jose Muni and Dodd, his home parks for all but 5 IP of his profession career, are two of the toughest pitchers' parks in the minors. Their HR park factors have been .87 and .81 respectively over the last three seasons.
   91. Tom is a Doofwongle Posted: July 30, 2009 at 04:43 AM (#3273389)
Dr.S,
I am thinking along with you, there is a conceit among the many prospect watchers that they have a better appreciation of the value of prospects than the Major league teams do. Oh No, somebody who is #26 on XYZ's prospects of the year is obviously worth more than player N. We really don't know that.

It is comparable to people thinking they understand illness better than their doctors do.
   92. Dr. Vaux Posted: July 30, 2009 at 06:21 AM (#3273421)
Not really. Doctors have to get through medical school, where they learn that stuff. To be a scouting director, GM, or Vice President of Player Development, all somebody has to do is either play pro ball and kiss up to some people, or graduate from an Ivy League school and kiss up to some people.
   93. Ron Johnson Posted: July 30, 2009 at 06:41 AM (#3273423)
It's a BP thing


Most specifically a Gary Huckabay thing. And he meant it.

In about the same way he meant it when he said Tony Phillips > Pete Rose. Or any other hyperbole that made sense to him at that moment. Always one of my favorite writers/usenet posters, but you did have to know where he was coming from.

EDIT: It's really a variation of Sam's Law. "Young pitchers will break your heart"
   94. Tom is a Doofwongle Posted: July 30, 2009 at 06:48 AM (#3273424)
vaux you prove my point.

I doubt there is a team left that does not spend more money on using modern analytic tools to appraise players than all of the "sabremetric" oriented prospect sites put together. And in case you haven't noticed, anyone who has shown a real ability to see things that teams were missing HAS BEEN HIRED BY A TEAM!

Go down the list of really good sabremetric or analytic people, one by one they have been picked off.

Things just aren't done the old fashioned way, at all, anywhere.

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