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Saturday, December 31, 2011

MLB Homegrown Teams

Well, it looks like #6org is #1

What if players were only permitted to stay with the team that originally made them a professional? No trades, no Rule-5 Draft, no waivers, no minor- or major-league free agency ... once you are a professional baseball player, you stay in that organization. This series shows how all 30 teams would look. We give you: Homegrown teams.

Misirlou cut his hair and moved to Rome Posted: December 31, 2011 at 05:08 PM | 107 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
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1. birdlives is one crazy ninja Posted: December 31, 2011 at 06:13 PM (#4026293)

Willie Harris is the best DH the O's have produced. Obviously the writer hasn't heard of a guy named Calvin Pickering.

2. Robert in Manhattan Beach Posted: December 31, 2011 at 06:27 PM (#4026298)

So it's Prado-Heyward-Francoeur around the outfield. Out of position-out of position-dumbass. The Braves don't do outfielders. Pretty good roster outside of that, although they have given much of it away.

3. Benji Gil Gamesh VII - The Opt-Out Awakens Posted: December 31, 2011 at 07:42 PM (#4026335)

Well, this looks like a simulation waiting to happen.

4. OCF Posted: December 31, 2011 at 08:30 PM (#4026364)

I'm sorry, but counting Ichiro for Seattle is cheating. Ichiro belongs with Orix. Seattle would still have a good team but would they rank 1st?

5. Walt Davis Posted: December 31, 2011 at 08:45 PM (#4026373)

the Cubs lineup:

1. Kosuke Fukudome, RF
2. Darwin Barney, 2B
3. Starlin Castro, SS
4. Tyler Colvin, LF
5. Casey McGehee, 3B
6. Eric Hinske, 1B
7. Geovany Soto, C
8. Sam Fuld, CF

I'm thinking that's not good.

Willie Harris is the best DH the O's have produced. Obviously the writer hasn't heard of a guy named Calvin Pickering.

Have to still be active. Or is Cal doing his Godzilla act in Japan or somewhere?

6. Walt Davis Posted: December 31, 2011 at 08:56 PM (#4026378)

The Phils look pretty good on offense -- Utley, Howard, Rollins, Ruiz plus Bourn, Byrd, Rolen -- and pitching -- Hamels, Floyd, Worley, Wolf, Myers, Madson, Bastardo.

Never knew Ortiz was in the Ms organization originally.

Now that I think about it, that Cubs lineup there is not much worse than the 2012 Cubs lineup. I'll definitely take Soriano, Byrd and DeJesus over that OF but it's not mind blowing. And LeHair and Stewart are far from guaranteed to be better than Hinske/McGehee. Hinske might not be a bad pickup for the Cubs actually.

Anyway, cool and fun idea. And, yeah, it would be great if somebody could sim it.

7. Dan The Mediocre is one of "the rest" Posted: December 31, 2011 at 09:03 PM (#4026381)

the Cubs lineup:

1. Kosuke Fukudome, RF
2. Darwin Barney, 2B
3. Starlin Castro, SS
4. Tyler Colvin, LF
5. Casey McGehee, 3B
6. Eric Hinske, 1B
7. Geovany Soto, C
8. Sam Fuld, CF

I'm thinking that's not good.

How awful has the Cubs minor league system been when it has produced a team that is markedly worse than the 71-91 team that was on the field this year?

8. thetailor (Brian) Posted: December 31, 2011 at 09:23 PM (#4026389)

I love this exercise. The Braves pitching, my god.

Also, I am not sure how he ended up "ranking" them, but I have a hard time believing anyone is going to beat the Dodgers:

1. Dee Gordon, SS
2. Shane Victorino, RF
3. Matt Kemp, LF
4. Paul Konerko, 1B
5. Adrian Beltre, 3B
6. Carlos Santana, C
7. Franklin Gutierrez, CF
8. Miguel Cairo, 2B

Starting Rotation

1. Clayton Kershaw
2. Edwin Jackson
3. Ted Lilly
4. Hiroki Kuroda
5. Chad Billingsley

If you don't like us using Kuroda -- some commenters have disagreed with including guys who were professional players in Japan in this series -- you can slide in James McDonald or the youngster Rubby De La Rosa.

Bullpen

Closer - Joakim Soria
Set up - Javy Guerra, Joel Hanrahan, Kenley Jansen, Takashi Saito, Jonathan Broxton, Pedro Feliciano, Cory Wade
Long - McDonald

9. Misirlou cut his hair and moved to Rome Posted: December 31, 2011 at 09:36 PM (#4026392)

How awful has the Cubs minor league system been when it has produced a team that is markedly worse than the 71-91 team that was on the field this year?

Now, consider a 1967 version:

C - Dick Bertell
1B - Ernie Banks
2b - Paul Popovich
SS - Don Kessinger
3B - Ron Santo
LF - Lou Brock
CF - George Altman
RF - Billy Williams

SP - Ken Holtzman
SP - Bill Stoneman
SP - Joe Niekro
SP - Rich Nye
SP - Dick Ellsworth

OK, a couple of gaping holes in the lineup (Bertell and Altman were once solid players, but by 1967 both were through). But a lot of star power and a young decent rotation.

10. Meatwad Posted: December 31, 2011 at 11:41 PM (#4026437)

really he has farnsworth as the closer for the cubs? does he not know that he never really was the cubs closer?

11. Random Transaction Generator Posted: December 31, 2011 at 11:58 PM (#4026444)

The Blue Jays rotation is insanely good. Like, early-1990s-Braves-good.

12. Martin Hemner

Posted: January 01, 2012 at 12:29 AM (#4026453)

The Blue Jays rotation is insanely good. Like, early-1990s-Braves-good.

At first glance, the Jays lineup looks pretty good too. Until you realize that most of the name players, outside of Michael Young, are now terrible.

13. Matt Clement of Alexandria Posted: January 01, 2012 at 12:30 AM (#4026454)

I think the Red Sox starting nine aren't arranged correctly. I'd go

CF Ellsbury
2B Pedroia
SS Ramirez
1B Youkilis
LF Murphy
DH Murton
RF Reddick
3B Sanchez
C Shoppach

I've dropped Jed Lowrie and Anthony Rizzo to the bench in favor of Sanchez (who certainly should be starting in the infield) and Murton (who's been good in NPB).

I think with the rotation (Lester, Masterson, Buchholz, Sanchez, Bard) and bullpen (Papelbon, Betancourt, Francisco) that's a top 5 team.

14. Voros McCracken of Pinkus Posted: January 01, 2012 at 12:35 AM (#4026455)

Bonds should be on the Pirates team.

15. Misirlou cut his hair and moved to Rome Posted: January 01, 2012 at 12:39 AM (#4026457)

The Blue Jays rotation is insanely good. Like, early-1990s-Braves-good.

According to BBREF, Aceves was signed by the Jays in 2001, but never played in their org. His first minor league team was in the Mexican league.

16. Misirlou cut his hair and moved to Rome Posted: January 01, 2012 at 12:45 AM (#4026459)

Bonds should be on the Pirates team.

Nyjer Morgan's no All Star, but I've got to believe he's better than a 47 year old Bonds who hasn't played in 4 years

17. Good cripple hitter Posted: January 01, 2012 at 12:50 AM (#4026462)

According to BBREF, Aceves was signed by the Jays in 2001, but never played in their org. His first minor league team was in the Mexican league.

I found that odd, too, because I'd never heard of Aceves pitching for Toronto and looked at his BBREF page and figured that the writer of Toronto's article screwed up. But, there's an article about his time with Toronto. He made a few starts for their Dominican Summer League team in 2001. The Jays wanted him to go back to the DSL in 2002, but he jumped the team and returned to Mexico instead. The Jays sold him to a Mexican League team after that.

18. Walt Davis Posted: January 01, 2012 at 12:55 AM (#4026466)

How awful has the Cubs minor league system been when it has produced a team that is markedly worse than the 71-91 team that was on the field this year?

The Cubs are not known for their positional development. The pitching staff would look better if you went my name value but with Zambrano old, Willis useless, Wood now a reliever, Prior armless, etc. it doesn't look so good. Of course the same could be said of almost any of these teams except the Royals and Rays.

19. The District Attorney Posted: January 01, 2012 at 01:01 AM (#4026470)

Nyjer Morgan's no All Star, but I've got to believe he's better than a 47 year old Bonds who hasn't played in 4 years

I wonder. It'd be interesting to know.

20. ray james Posted: January 01, 2012 at 01:34 AM (#4026478)

Japanese players really shouldn't count. They're really free agents who have been developed somewhere else.

21. Misirlou cut his hair and moved to Rome Posted: January 01, 2012 at 02:25 AM (#4026491)

How about an all time homegrown team?

Cubs:

C - Gabby Hartnett
1B - Rafael Palmeiro
2B - Billy Herman
SS - Ernie Banks
3B - Ron Santo
LF - Billy Williams
CF - Andy Pafko
RF - Wildfire Schulte

SP - Greg Maddux
SP - Jamie Moyer
SP - Joe Niekro
SP - Rick Reuschel
SP - Ken Holtzman

Bench: Johnny Kling, Mark Grace, Johnny Evers, Stan Hack, Lou Brock, Oscar Gamble
Pen: Bruce Sutter, Lee Smith, Carlos Marmol, Kerry Wood, Kyle Farnsworth, Sean Marshall

22. OCF Posted: January 01, 2012 at 02:45 AM (#4026495)

Cardinals:

C - Ted Simmons
1B - Albert Pujols (with plenty of bench)
2B - Rogers Hornsby
3B - Terry Pendleton
SS - Marty Marion (Hey - Pendleton and Marion each have an MVP)
LF - Stan Musial
CF - having trouble here. Andy Van Slyke?
RF - Joe Medwick or Enos Slaughter

(Or: Musial in CF, Pujols in LF, Mize at 1B? And if you get to play with a DH, Mize there and Hernandez at 1B?)

SP - Bob Gibson
SP - Steve Carlton
SP - Dizzy Dean
SP - plenty of others with more than 20 WAR. Mike Torrez, for one.

RP - kind of stumped there. Everyone seems to have started out somewhere else, even Joe Hoerner.

23. Misirlou cut his hair and moved to Rome Posted: January 01, 2012 at 03:06 AM (#4026498)

RP - kind of stumped there. Everyone seems to have started out somewhere else, even Joe Hoerner.

Well, Todd Worrell for one. Al Hrabosky. Lindy McDaniel. That's a damned good start.

24. Misirlou cut his hair and moved to Rome Posted: January 01, 2012 at 03:12 AM (#4026499)

CF - having trouble here. Andy Van Slyke?

Ray Lankford.

25. AJMcCringleberry Posted: January 01, 2012 at 03:13 AM (#4026500)

Fake Orioles may be even worse than real Orioles.

26. spike Posted: January 01, 2012 at 03:16 AM (#4026501)

Braves homegrown team, off the top of my head, looks pretty sick.

C - McCann
1B - Matthews
2B - Prado
3B - C Jones
SS - Furcal
OF- Aaron
OF - Murphy
OF- Jones

SP - Glavine
SP - Niekro
SP - Nichols
SP - Wainwright
SP - Millwood

Bench - Torre, Klesko, Dye, Escobar, Justice, Lopez
Pen - Bedrosian, Wohlers, Kimbrel, Venters, Mercker, Feliz

//fudged a bit on Matthews, and probably should have a MI on the bench, but that's a side.

27. Misirlou cut his hair and moved to Rome Posted: January 01, 2012 at 03:21 AM (#4026503)

SP - Glavine
SP - Niekro
SP - Nichols
SP - Wainwright
SP - Millwood

then there's the lefty with 363 career wins.

28. Misirlou cut his hair and moved to Rome Posted: January 01, 2012 at 03:24 AM (#4026504)

/fudged a bit on Matthews, and probably should have a MI on the bench, but that's a side.

Put Chipper in left, Mathews on 3rd, Darrell Evans at first, and Murphy or Jones on the bench.

edit: never mind. Evans was drafted by KC. So put Murph at 1st. He played there in 1978 and 1979.

29. spike Posted: January 01, 2012 at 03:25 AM (#4026505)

Well I did say off the top of my head.

/blushes

30. Misirlou cut his hair and moved to Rome Posted: January 01, 2012 at 03:26 AM (#4026506)

Boy, Evans sure played hard to get:

June 8, 1965: Drafted by the Chicago Cubs in the 13th round of the 1965 amateur draft, but did not sign.
January 29, 1966: Drafted by the New York Yankees in the 2nd round of the 1966 amateur draft (January Secondary), but did not sign.
June 7, 1966: Drafted by the Detroit Tigers in the 5th round of the 1966 amateur draft (June Secondary), but did not sign.
January 28, 1967: Drafted by the Philadelphia Phillies in the 3rd round of the 1967 amateur draft (January Secondary), but did not sign.
June 6, 1967: Drafted by the Kansas City Athletics in the 7th round of the 1967 amateur draft (June Secondary).

31. Der-K's enjoying the new boygenius album. Posted: January 01, 2012 at 03:26 AM (#4026508)

Wait. With the linked bit (which is a fun exercise and done well) - you evaluate them on how good they are now. What are you doing in an all-time bit - peak, career, a mix of the two?

32. OCF Posted: January 01, 2012 at 03:33 AM (#4026511)

Thanks. I'd forgotten about Worrell, Hrabosky,and Lankford. I'm sure I missed some others at other positions as well.

33. Misirlou cut his hair and moved to Rome Posted: January 01, 2012 at 04:05 AM (#4026522)

Then there's the evil empire

C - Berra
1B - Gehrig
2B - Gordon
SS - Jeter
3B - Mike Lowell
LF - Charlie Keller
CF - Dimaggio
RF - Mantle

SP - Ford
SP - Guidry
SP - Pettitte
SP - Gomez
SP - Chandler

Bench - Dickey, McGriff, Rizzuto, McDougald, Henrich, Bernie Williams
Pen - Rivera, Chamberlain, Page, Johnny Murphy, Robertson

QB - John Elway, Drew Henson

34. Rough Carrigan

Posted: January 01, 2012 at 04:50 AM (#4026527)

Damn. That yankee team is good.
I'll take a shot at the Red Sox version.

C - Fisk
1B - Bagwell
2B - Doerr
SS - Garciaparra
3B - Boggs
LF - Williams
CF - Tris Speaker
RF - Ruth

SP - Roger Clemens
SP - Jon Lester
SP - Bruce Hurst
SP - Tex Hughson
SP - Red Ruffing

Bench - Pesky, Rough Carrigan, Reggie Smith, Everett Scott, Harry Hooper, Mo Vaughn
Pen - Papelbon, Bard, Stanley, Parnell, Carl Mays

That would be one awesome f***ing lineup. But, damn, you can't pick Pedro or Tiant or Cy Young and you have to pick guys who didn't do it that long like Hughson or guys with even shorter shelf lives like Smokey Joe Wood. Even Mays in the pen is half cheating but he did pitch a lot of relief.

35. ray james Posted: January 01, 2012 at 05:20 AM (#4026529)

Radatz goes in the pen instead of Bard.

36. booond Posted: January 01, 2012 at 05:36 AM (#4026531)

Yaz at first? Pedroia at 2b? Smokey Joe Wood at SP?

37. booond Posted: January 01, 2012 at 05:45 AM (#4026532)

Radatz and Sparky Lyle in the pen

38. Walt Davis Posted: January 01, 2012 at 06:17 AM (#4026534)

Gentlemen, may I present the Athletics Ballclub:

C -- Cochrane (HOF)
1B -- Foxx (HOF)
2B -- Collins (HOF)
SS -- Campy or Tejada (HoVG)
3B -- HR Baker (HOF)
LF -- Rickey (HOF)
CF -- Reggie (HOF)
RF -- Simmons (HOF)
DH -- McGwire (HOM)

bench: Tenace (HoVG), Evans (HOM), Monday (HoVG), Canseco (Sleazeball), Bando (should be HoM), the other SS (HoVG)

SP -- Grove
SP -- Hunter
SP -- Plank
SP -- Bender
SP -- Hudson
SP -- Blue
SP -- I could keep going just using guys of the last 20 years

RP -- Fingers, Street, Bailey, Lindblad(?), must be others plus whatever's left over from the rotation

That bench is insane as is the SP depth.

Impressive for a team that totally sucked for, what, 40 years.

(In theory, we could treat somebody like Grove similar to Japanese players.)

And did you know Lefty Grove is still 10th in A's history in saves?

39. Walt Davis Posted: January 01, 2012 at 06:19 AM (#4026535)

40. Monty Posted: January 01, 2012 at 07:28 AM (#4026537)

That would be one awesome f***ing lineup. But, damn, you can't pick Pedro or Tiant or Cy Young and you have to pick guys who didn't do it that long like Hughson or guys with even shorter shelf lives like Smokey Joe Wood. Even Mays in the pen is half cheating but he did pitch a lot of relief.

Ruth could pitch if you need it.

41. booond Posted: January 01, 2012 at 08:07 AM (#4026542)

SP -- Grove
SP -- Hunter
SP -- Plank
SP -- Bender
SP -- Hudson
SP -- Blue

Hunter #2?

42. toratoratora Posted: January 01, 2012 at 09:51 AM (#4026553)

C -- Cochrane (HOF)
1B -- Foxx (HOF)
2B -- Collins (HOF)
SS -- Campy or Tejada (HoVG)
3B -- HR Baker (HOF)
LF -- Rickey (HOF)
CF -- Reggie (HOF)
RF -- Simmons (HOF)
DH -- McGwire (HOM)

Put Simmons in Center, Reggie in right. Simmons was a plus CF his first few years in the league and IIRC Reggie had a pretty strong arm when he was young.
Otherwise, cripes, whatta team

Also, the Cards could put Pete Reiser in center. He came up in their system before being "loaned" to Brooklyn.Then they could get fancy and play Albert in right and put John Mize at first. Or they could let Musial play center (The reason he didn't play center was Terry Moore),and put Reiser in right.
Then you're looking at:

C - Ted Simmons
1B - John Mize
2B - Rogers Hornsby
3B - Terry Pendleton...though I would take Ken Boyer
SS - Marty Marion (Hey - Pendleton and Marion each have an MVP)
LF - Stan Musial
CF - Pete Reiser
RF - Albert Pujols

That's mighty fine.

43. Walt Davis Posted: January 01, 2012 at 10:51 AM (#4026558)

Hunter #2?

Second one that sprang to mind, then I started cheating.

More A's bench players: Chavez, Giambi, Max Bishop, Dwayne Murphy, Terry Steinbach, Jimmy Dykes, Joe Rudi. Those are all guys with 20+ WAR with the A's. The best position players for the A's that didn't start as A's appear to be Harry Davis and Danny Murphy ... but then both of their careers began before the AL existed. So you could argue that Carney Lansford (26.7 A's WAR) was the first significant A's position player not developed by the A's.

On the pitchers, I didn't even list Eddie Rommel because I don't know that I'd ever heard of him but he did have 42 WAR, #3 all-time for the A's. Rube Waddell is the best non-A's A's pitcher but, again, he started before the AL existed. So that honor falls to Rube Walberg ... who threw 5 innings for the Giants before being sent back to the PCL and purchased bythe A's two days later. :-) So that brings us to Dave Stewart and Eck.

So on the other side, seems the A's have made maybe only 5 good trades in their entire history. :-)

44. toratoratora Posted: January 01, 2012 at 10:56 AM (#4026559)

This is fun.
Lets try the Pirates. I'm cheating a bit here and including Honus, who came up with the Louisville Colonels who were folded into the Pirates

C-Manny Sanguillen
1B-Willie Stargell
2B-Maz
SS-Arky Vaughan
3B-Honus Wagner
LF-Barry Bonds
CF-Paul Waner or Fred Clarke
RF-Dave Parker or Ralph Kiner

45. Steve Parris, Je t'aime Posted: January 01, 2012 at 12:27 PM (#4026563)

Continuing with the NL Central theme - the Reds:

C-Johnny Bench
1B-Tony Perez
2B-Bid McPhee
SS-Barry Larkin
3B-Pete Rose
LF-Eric Davis
CF-Vada Pinson
RF-Frank Robinson

Bench includes Ted Kluszewski, Joey Votto, Ed Bailey, Dave Concepcion, Ken Griffey, and Adam Dunn. Pretty solid lineup and bench, but the starting pitching is pretty bad. Noodles Hahn, Bob Ewing, Jim Maloney, Gary Nolan, and Don Gullet, I guess. The 2,000 inning guys are both pre-war (the first one). Bullpen - Joe Nuxhall, Rawley Eastwick, Jeff Montgomery, Rob Dibble, Scott Sullivan, and Trevor Hoffman (who maybe shouldn't count because he was a shortstop in the Reds' org).

46. Jim Wisinski

Posted: January 01, 2012 at 02:01 PM (#4026568)

It's funny that the Rays rotation in the linked article is exactly what they put on the field last season

47. Misirlou cut his hair and moved to Rome Posted: January 01, 2012 at 03:00 PM (#4026573)

It's funny that the Rays rotation in the linked article is exactly what they put on the field last season

Replace Niemann or Davis with Moore, and this year's is likely to be better.

48. BDC

Posted: January 01, 2012 at 03:17 PM (#4026578)

Expansion franchises are at a disadvantage, of course, but here's the Rangers for the fun of it:

C Ivan Rodriguez
1B Mark Teixeira
2B Ian Kinsler
3B Hank Blalock
SS
LF Juan Gonzalez
CF Sammy Sosa
RF Ruben Sierra
DH Jeff Burroughs

SP Kevin Brown
SP Ron Darling
SP Barry Zito
SP CJ Wilson

RP Darren Oliver

Hard to say who to put at shortstop. I notice that TFA has Kinsler playing there on the 2012 incarnation of the homegrown Rangers; I suppose I could adopt that theory and put Bump Wills at second base. Otherwise I'd have to go way back to Eddie Brinkman, a longtime old New Senator who played one game for Texas at the end of his career. I've already got Sosa out of position in CF so that I can have Gonzalez and Sierra in the lineup as well. Maybe better to put Rusty Greer in the outfield and Gonzalez at DH ... this is not an inspiring defensive alignment.

49. Misirlou cut his hair and moved to Rome Posted: January 01, 2012 at 03:29 PM (#4026583)

Hard to say who to put at shortstop. I notice that TFA has Kinsler playing there on the 2012 incarnation of the homegrown Rangers; I suppose I could adopt that theory and put Bump Wills at second base.

I was about to say Toby Harrah, but apparently he was signed by the Phillies and spent 1 year in their minors.

50. Don Lock Posted: January 01, 2012 at 03:50 PM (#4026599)

It's always popular in Baltimore to blame Peter Angelos for all the team's misery but he has spent money on free agents in the past (Miguel Tejada, Javy Lopez most recently) with no real benefit. From this story it seems that player development was not the issue as there were few good players signed to be developed. Other teams haven't stolen talent from the farm system.

That leaves the draft. Why have Oriole picks so rarely delivered? It is hard for me to think that most of the team's picks were much different than what other teams chose. With 30 teams choosing from the same player pool, there can't be many surprise picks. Many top O's picks were pitchers who were injured or just failed to develop. Is this a flaw in scouting or minor league usage? I know the system is strict with starters' pitch counts.

Bottom line is - how is the Oriole player development system worse than that of the other teams and how can it be corrected?

51. . . . . . . Posted: January 01, 2012 at 03:51 PM (#4026600)

The Dodgers win the all-time game, or are at least comparable with the A's and Yanks.

52. ray james Posted: January 01, 2012 at 03:59 PM (#4026606)

I don't know. Ruth, Speaker and Williams as your outfield? I kind of like the Red Sox.

53. . . . . . . Posted: January 01, 2012 at 04:06 PM (#4026608)

Yeah, but the Red Sox pitching sort of blows.

54. Matt Clement of Alexandria Posted: January 01, 2012 at 04:06 PM (#4026609)

The Red Sox team should be right there with the A's and Yanks. Look at that outfield - best RF ever, second-best LF ever, third-best CF ever. Plus a top-5 3B, a top-10 1B, a top-10 C, a HoF 2B and a SS with a Hall of Fame peak. And that's with either Yaz or Bags on the bench. If you get a DH, the Sox are even better.

The Dodgers are up there, because of their rotation, but the lineup isn't that great, compared the Yanks, Sox, and A's. Maybe I'm missing a few someones, but they have a lot more non-HoF starters than the best teams.

The only HoFers I got off the top of my head were Piazza, Robinson, Reese, and Snider. There's also Zack Wheat. 1B is probably Hodges, 3B is either Cey or Beltre, and the other outfielder is probably Willie Davis. Those are good players, but there's only two inner-circle talents and a bunch of HoVGs. Am I missing one or two greats? Probably.

The rotation of Pedro, Koufax, Drysdale, Newcombe is kind of totally sweet though.

55. . . . . . . Posted: January 01, 2012 at 04:08 PM (#4026611)

To remind everyone, the Dodgers pitching is:

SP - Pedro
SP - Koufax
SP - Drysdale
SP - Sutton
SP - A medley of high-end HoVG types.

56. . . . . . . Posted: January 01, 2012 at 04:11 PM (#4026612)

Campanella is a pretty big omission to the all-time greats list. And the Dodgers have Reiser to throw in the OF as well. It's a shame they don't get credit for Vance, then the rotation would be jaw dropping.

57. Yeaarrgghhhh Posted: January 01, 2012 at 04:16 PM (#4026613)

Orioles (without the Browns)...

C Wieters
1b Murray
2b Grich
SS Ripken
3b B. Robinson
RF Markakis
CF Blair
LF Baylor
DH Powell

Bench D. Johnson, Decinces, B. Roberts

SP Palmer
SP Mussina
SP Boddicker
SP Pappas
SP D. Martinez

CL Olson
BP Flanagan, McNally

The infield and rotation are great, but the OF is pretty weak. For some reason the Orioles have never been able to develop OFs. Not bad considering the franchise is only 50 years old and hasn't produced anything over the last 20 years.

58. Misirlou cut his hair and moved to Rome Posted: January 01, 2012 at 04:22 PM (#4026616)

Expansion franchises are at a disadvantage, of course, but here's the Rangers for the fun of it:

Natspos:

C - Gary Carter
1B - Andres Galarraga
2B - Jose Vidro
SS - Orlando Carbrera
3B - Ryan Zimmerman
LF - Tim Raines
CF - Andre Dawson
RF - Vlad Guerrero

SP - Randy Johnson
SP - Steve Rogers
SP - Cliff Lee
SP - Javier Vasquez
SP - Scott Sanderson

Bench - Larry Walker, Tim Wallach, Grady Sizemore, Delino DeShields, Jamey Carroll, Brian Schneider
Pen - Chad Cordero, Ugueth Urbina, Drew Storen, Norm Charlton, Stephen Strasburg, Jordan Zimmerman

That's a hell of an OF, rotation, and bench. 4 HOFers in the starting lineup, 5 when RJ is pitching.

Didn't make the cut: Larry Parrish, Marquis Grissom, Jason Bay, Bill Gullickson, Cliff Floyd

59. Rafael Bellylard: The Grinch of Orlando. Posted: January 01, 2012 at 04:30 PM (#4026619)

I think the All-Time Giants team would probably be pretty good.

C: Chief Meyers
1B: Willie McCovey
2B: Frankie Frisch
SS: Travis Jackson
3B: Matt Williams
LF: Orlando Cepeda
CF: Willie Mays
RF: Mel Ott

SP: Christy Mathewson
SP: Carl Hubbell
SP: Juan Marichal
SP: Gaylord Perry
SP: Tim Lincecum

It's a bit of a stretch to put Cepeda in LF, but he did play 200+ games there.

60. JJ1986 Posted: January 01, 2012 at 04:31 PM (#4026620)

I was trying to make a Mets lineup and found out that Amos Otis was originally a Red Sox pick and played two years for them. How did he end up on the Mets? Old version of the Rule 5?

61. Misirlou cut his hair and moved to Rome Posted: January 01, 2012 at 04:34 PM (#4026621)

It's a bit of a stretch to put Cepeda in LF, but he did play 200+ games there.

Giants would probably be beter off with Bonds in the OF than Cepeda. Bonds defense would overcome the offensive disparity (if there was any).

edit: and it's questionable as to whether Mathewson would be eligible to play for the Giants. It was a sham trade from the Reds, but it was a trade. Then again, if trades weren't available, the Ginats probably would have ponied up the money anyway.

62. ray james Posted: January 01, 2012 at 04:37 PM (#4026623)

Yeah, but the Red Sox pitching sort of blows.

It really doesn't. Rough did a "rough" job of constructing the pitching staff. Clemens, Ruth, Wood, Schilling and Mays at the top and Radatz, Lyle and Papelbon in the pen. You could fill the rotation out with guys like Leonard, Parnell, Hughson and Lester. Doesn't get much better than that.

Backup outfielders could be a selection from Rice, Lynn, Dimaggio, Evans, Hooper and Lewis. Infield (assuming Pedroia starts) Gardner, Malzone, Pesky, Petrocelli, Yaz (if he's not Dh'ing), Cooper and Doerr.

Backup catcher would probably be... who else? Rough Carrigan.

63. booond Posted: January 01, 2012 at 05:01 PM (#4026630)

The only HoFers I got off the top of my head were Piazza, Robinson, Reese, and Snider.

Clemente?

64. Harveys Wallbangers

Posted: January 01, 2012 at 05:02 PM (#4026632)

Milwaukee

C: Del Crandall (I favor defense so no Torre)
1B: Prince Fielder
2B: Paul Molitor
SS: Robin Yount
3B: Eddie Mathews
LF: Ryan Braun
CF: Gorman Thomas
RF: The Hammer

SP: Phil Niekro
SP: Benn Sheets
SP: Jaun Pizarro
SP: Ted Higuera
RP: Doug Jones (no, really, the Brewers drafted him)

65. booond Posted: January 01, 2012 at 05:05 PM (#4026633)

Aren't the Brewers the Seattle Pilots, not the Braves?

66. BDC

Posted: January 01, 2012 at 05:21 PM (#4026640)

Addendum to #48: the Rangers' backup catcher would be Jim Sundberg, not bad at all.

Several Hall of Famers have played in Arlington over the years, many of them pitchers, counter-intuitively (Jenkins, Perry, Blyleven, Ryan). But they won't have a homegrown player reach the Hall until either Sosa or Little Pudge is voted in, and steroid suspicions might hurt both of them.

67. Harveys Wallbangers

Posted: January 01, 2012 at 06:11 PM (#4026655)

Post 65:

When I wrote Milwaukee I meant Milwaukee teams given that I knew/know the Braves and Brewers.

Of course, when could make the case that if a guy was drafted by the Boston or Seattle franchises then those players are ineligible.

68. The Ghost of Sox Fans Past

Posted: January 01, 2012 at 06:24 PM (#4026658)

Of course, when could make the case that if a guy was drafted by the Boston or Seattle franchises then those players are ineligible.

Since Bud Selig specifically disclaimed the Pilots stats and records as part of the Brewers franchise history, that makes sense.

[Edited: Jim]

69. Misirlou cut his hair and moved to Rome Posted: January 01, 2012 at 07:00 PM (#4026664)

Of course, when could make the case that if a guy was drafted by the Boston or Seattle franchises then those players are ineligible.

Since Bud Selig specifically disclaimed the Pilots stats and records as part of the Brewers franchise history, that makes sense.

Gorman Thomas was drafted by the Pilots

70. ERROR---Jolly Old St. Nick

Posted: January 01, 2012 at 07:10 PM (#4026671)

The best starting 8's are probably the A's or the Red Sox, and the best pitching is the Giants or the Dodgers. Put those 4 teams in a 162 game round robin with normal amounts of days off and a few doubleheaders, and I think it'd come down to the A's and the Giants. Not enough pitching for the Red Sox and not that good a starting 8 for the Dodgers.

Looking at the two "finalists" as selected by Rafael and Walt, and trimming the bench and BP from Walt's A's in order to equalize the rosters:

Rafael's Giants
C: Chief Meyers
1B: Willie McCovey
2B: Frankie Frisch
SS: Travis Jackson
3B: Matt Williams
LF: Orlando Cepeda
CF: Willie Mays
RF: Mel Ott

SP: Christy Mathewson
SP: Carl Hubbell
SP: Juan Marichal
SP: Gaylord Perry
SP: Tim Lincecum

vs.

Walt's A's
C -- Cochrane (HOF)
1B -- Foxx (HOF)
2B -- Collins (HOF)
SS -- Campy or Tejada (HoVG)
3B -- HR Baker (HOF)
LF -- Rickey (HOF)
CF -- Reggie (HOF)
RF -- Simmons (HOF)

SP -- Grove
SP -- Hunter
SP -- Plank
SP -- Bender
SP -- Hudson

It looks to me as if the A's win all the everyday matchups except CF and RF, but that the Giants' rotation dominates once you get past Grove, and at their peaks Grove wasn't even that much better than Mathewson. Over 162 games it'd be very close, but in a short series I think the Giants might even sweep.

Impressive for a team that totally sucked for, what, 40 years.

That's what Walt said about the A's, but that's not even the half of it. Since the American League began 111 years ago, the A's have been a feast or famine franchise that no other team can remotely come to matching. A graph of their winning percentage over the years would look like a variant of the Iowa straw polls for the past five months.

71. Joe Kehoskie Posted: January 01, 2012 at 07:15 PM (#4026673)

RP: Doug Jones (no, really, the Brewers drafted him)

Amazing career. Makes ML debut at age 25, then doesn't get back to ML until age 29, first full ML season isn't until age 31 — and then pitches in the ML until he's 43.

Anyway, great thread.

72. Rough Carrigan

Posted: January 01, 2012 at 07:41 PM (#4026693)

#70. Wasn't Hubbell a Tigers farm system guy? How do the Giants get to claim him? I thought this was supposed to be derived on where a guy was first drafted or signed.

And, I totally screwed up in not putting Radatz in the Red Sox pen and forgetting about putting Yaz on the Sox bench.

73. Misirlou cut his hair and moved to Rome Posted: January 01, 2012 at 07:48 PM (#4026698)

70. Wasn't Hubbell a Tigers farm system guy?

Yes he was. From BBREF:

Before 1926 Season: Purchased by the Detroit Tigers from Oklahoma City (Western) for $20,000.
April, 1928: Purchased by Beaumont (Texas) from the Detroit Tigers.
July 12, 1928: Purchased by the New York Giants from Beaumont (Texas) for $25,000.

His minors page shows one 1927 team affiliated with the Tigers.

So, Hubbell and Mathewson go down.

74. booond Posted: January 01, 2012 at 08:20 PM (#4026716)

And, I totally screwed up in not putting Radatz in the Red Sox pen and forgetting about putting Yaz on the Sox bench.

Tough to account for everyone off the top of your head. Put in the DH and Yaz could be in left with Teddy Ballgame the greatest DH ever. Would be fun to see.

75. ERROR---Jolly Old St. Nick

Posted: January 01, 2012 at 08:21 PM (#4026717)

So, Hubbell and Mathewson go down.

Hubbell would, but not Mathewson, since he was first acquired by the Giants from Norfolk. His first Reds "career" lasted only a few weeks in the middle of December of 1900.

But if we're really sticking to the rules as stated above...

What if players were only permitted to stay with the team that originally made them a professional? No trades, no Rule-5 Draft, no waivers, no minor- or major-league free agency ... once you are a professional baseball player, you stay in that organization.

...

there are a whole lot of players who'd get the boot, including the entire A's team, all of the Giants except for Ott and Lincecum, and all of the Red Sox except for Doerr, Williams, Yaz and Lester (so far):

And under those guidelines, try beating this strictly homegrown and never-played-elsewhere team:

1B - Mattingly
2B - Cano
SS - Jeter
3B - McDougald
OF - White or Combs
OF - Dimaggio
OF - Mantle

P - Ford
P - Guidry
P - Stottlemyre
P - Hughes
P - Mo / Robertson

Not exactly an all-time all-star team, but what other team can beat it, or even come close to it?

76. Rough Carrigan

Posted: January 01, 2012 at 08:26 PM (#4026719)

Well, I'm not a Tigers fan, but thinking about Hubbell on that squad makes me wonder about them. How about this?

C - Freehan
1B - Greenberg
2B - Gehringer
SS - Trammell
3B - Inge? (What a Gobi desert of talent this position has been for Detroit. Kell was Pha prop. first)
LF - Heilman
CF - Cobb
RF - Crawford

SP - Hubbell
SP - Verlander
SP - Lolich
SP - Newhouser
SP - Morris

Bench: Lance Parrish, Kaline, Horton, Whitaker, Granderson, Wertz
Bullpen: Hiller, Hernandez, Zumaya, Henneman Hutchinson

77. Misirlou cut his hair and moved to Rome Posted: January 01, 2012 at 08:26 PM (#4026720)

OF - Dimaggio

DiMaggio played for the SF Seals, no?

78. Rough Carrigan

Posted: January 01, 2012 at 08:28 PM (#4026721)

#75. I don't think those are the rules. You have to pretend that an organization kept a guy but the ones to choose aren't supposed to be only one team guys.

But, yeah, being the colossus of the reserve clause with smart management is a good thing.

79. Misirlou cut his hair and moved to Rome Posted: January 01, 2012 at 08:29 PM (#4026723)

3B - Inge? (What a Gobi desert of talent this position has been for Detroit. Kell was Pha prop. first)

Howard Johnson or Travis Fryman.

80. Misirlou cut his hair and moved to Rome Posted: January 01, 2012 at 08:33 PM (#4026726)

Bullpen: Hiller, Hernandez, Zumaya, Henneman Hutchinson

Is that Willie Hernandez? He was a Cub first, and originally drafted by the Phillies.

81. Rough Carrigan

Posted: January 01, 2012 at 09:29 PM (#4026763)

You're right. Screwed up again. Christ, I knew that too.
And, yeah, HoJo's the best option. My image of him was so much of his Met days that I'd forgotten.

82. Tuque

Posted: January 01, 2012 at 10:13 PM (#4026796)

People keep referring to the Dodgers team without actually listing it, which is aggravating, so I'm going to take a shot, admittedly without nearly as much historical knowledge as most of the other posters here:

SS - Pee Wee Reese (HoF)
OF - Duke Snider (HoF)
C - Mike Piazza (fHoF)
OF - Zack Wheat (HoF) (Does he count? There weren't really minor league systems in the same way, were there? It not, probably Matt Kemp by the time his career is over)
1B - Gil Hodges (HoVG)
3B - Ron Cey (HoVG) (probably Adrian Beltre in a few years)
OF - Willie Davis (HoVG)
2B - Davey Lopes (HoVG)

Bench: Steve Garvey, Maury Wills...other guys. Jim Gilliam depending on how you view Negro League signees

SP - Pedro Martinez (fHoF)
SP - Sandy Koufax (HoF)
SP - Don Drysdale (HoF)
SP - Don Sutton (HoF)
SP - Orel Hershiser (HoVG)

RP - Eric Gagne, Jonathan Broxton, Joakim Soria apparently. Or you can just throw in some of the other pretty good starters don't make the starting rotation - Fernando Valenzuela, Don Newcombe, Johnny Podres, etc. Maybe even Kershaw depending on how soon you see him getting injured and/or flaming out.

Manager: Mike Scoscia

Mascot: Darren Dreifort

I can't figure out how to look up players that the Dodgers brought up but played their careers elsewhere, so this is mostly just a "greatest non-Negro League Dodgers" list.

One of the problems with the Dodgers is that a bunch of their best, most iconic players don't count because they were signed as Negro Leaguers. And while that makes them a much more interesting franchise it kind of ##### them in a game like this. If Negro Leaguers count in the same way that they include Japanese players on the original list, then suddenly Piazza moves to first/backup catcher, Campanella takes over starting catcher, and Jackie Robinson takes second, and the team becomes almost entirely Hall of Famers or future Hall of Famers.

83. booond Posted: January 01, 2012 at 10:47 PM (#4026813)

OF - Willie Davis (HoVG)

Clemente was a Dodger before he was a Pirate.

84. spike Posted: January 01, 2012 at 11:37 PM (#4026833)

Updated Braves to add a couple of HoFers and HoVGers - I think they'd do pretty good against any of the "homegrown" sides listed so far. 4 of 5 SP and at least 4 and perhaps 6 of 8 position player HoFers. That's a hell of a defensive side too.

C - McCann fHoF?
1B - Matthews HoF
2B - Maranville HoF
3B - C Jones fHoF
SS - Furcal
OF- Aaron HoF
OF - Murphy - fHoVG
OF- A. Jones Hof/Hovg tossup

SP - Glavine fHoF
SP - Niekro HoF
SP - Nichols HoF
SP - Spahn HoF
SP - Wainwright

Bench - Torre, Wally Berger, Klesko, Prado, Justice, Lopez
Pen - Bedrosian, Wohlers, Kimbrel, Venters, Mercker, Feliz

85. Adam Starblind Posted: January 01, 2012 at 11:51 PM (#4026844)

The Lovable Losers:

C - Josh Thole???
1B - Ike Davis/Gregg Jefferies
2B - Edgardo Alfonzo
SS - Jose Reyes
3B - David Wright
LF - Kevin Mitchell
CF - Lenny Dykstra
RF - Darryl Strawberry

Bench - Burnitz, Payton, Backman, Cleon Jones, Hubie Brooks

SP - Tom Seaver
SP - Dwight Gooden
SP - Nolan Ryan
SP - Jerry Koosman
SP - Burnett/Kazmir/Matlack?

CL - Randy Myers
RP - Rick Aguilera
RP - Roger McDowell
RP - Heath Bell
RP - Aaron Heilman

GM - Billy Beane

86. JJ1986 Posted: January 02, 2012 at 12:01 AM (#4026849)

The Lovable Losers:

Todd Hundley at catcher. Nelson Cruz somewhere on the team.

87. Adam Starblind Posted: January 02, 2012 at 12:13 AM (#4026858)

[86] Duh. thanks.

88. Ebessan Posted: January 02, 2012 at 12:42 AM (#4026878)

Phillies:

C: Daulton.
1B: Delahanty.
2B: Lajoie.
3B: Schmidt.
SS: Bancroft.
LF: Klein.
CF: Ashburn.
RF: Magee.
DH: Allen.

Bench: Utley, Sandberg, Franco would have to get in line behind Lajoie. But we do have Darren Daulton! Boone, Rolen, Rollins.

SP: Pete Alexander.
SP: Robin Roberts.
SP: Ferguson Jenkins.
SP: Cole Hamels.
SP: Chris Short.

89. Tuque

Posted: January 02, 2012 at 12:44 AM (#4026880)

Clemente was a Dodger before he was a Pirate.

Huh. I had no idea.

Maybe I'm missing a few someones, but they have a lot more non-HoF starters than the best teams.

Per your standards, revised list:

SS: Pee Wee Reese (HoF)
2B: Jackie Robinson (HoF)
OF: Duke Snider (HoF)
1B/C: Mike Piazza (fHoF)
OF: Zack Wheat (HoF)
C: Roy Campanella (HoF)
OF: Roberto Clemente (HoF)
3B: Ron Cey (HoVG)

Bench: Beltre, Garvey, Gilliam, Lopes, Wills

SP: Pedro Martinez (fHoF)
SP: Sandy Koufax (HoF)
SP: Don Drysdale (HoF)
SP: Don Sutton (HoF)
SP: Orel Hershiser (HoVG)

LR: Valenzuela, Newcombe, Podres, Kershaw
SR: Soria, Broxton

CL: Eric Gagne

That's seven out of eight Hall of Famers in the everyday lineup and four out of five Hall of Famers in the rotation. With that pitching staff, I would bet on that team any day, even against Ruth/Williams/Speaker/Yaz. Eat your heart out, MCoA!

90. Matt Clement of Alexandria Posted: January 02, 2012 at 12:53 AM (#4026884)

Well, I could improve the Sox club by playing redundant Hall of Famers out of position, too. Piazza was no kind of first baseman. I didn't know about Clemente, so that makes a difference, but the 1B on the team is another HoVG.

There's a pretty big range of quality among Hall of Famers, and the Sox lineup is composed of inner and inner-inner circle players that the Dodgers don't really have in the same numbers. The pitching staff may well even it back out, or more, of course.

91. Downtown Bookie

Posted: January 02, 2012 at 01:29 AM (#4026906)

#85 - re: Lovable Losers:

I'd replace Jones & Dykstra in the outfield with Ken Singleton and Paul Blair.

I'd also find a spot in the bullpen for Tug McGraw.

DB

EDIT: Forgot Jason Isringhausen; have to find him a spot in the bullpen as well. And I think Ron Gardenhire should do just fine as manager.

92. Misirlou cut his hair and moved to Rome Posted: January 02, 2012 at 01:30 AM (#4026907)

Per your standards, revised list:

SS: Pee Wee Reese (HoF)
2B: Jackie Robinson (HoF)
OF: Duke Snider (HoF)
1B/C: Mike Piazza (fHoF)
OF: Zack Wheat (HoF)
C: Roy Campanella (HoF)
OF: Roberto Clemente (HoF)
3B: Ron Cey (HoVG)

Reese is a Pirates guy.

93. Eric J can SABER all he wants to Posted: January 02, 2012 at 01:53 AM (#4026922)

Of course, when could make the case that if a guy was drafted by the Boston or Seattle franchises then those players are ineligible.

Since Bud Selig specifically disclaimed the Pilots stats and records as part of the Brewers franchise history, that makes sense.

Gorman Thomas was drafted by the Pilots

Eddie Mathews played a year in Boston.

94. ray james Posted: January 02, 2012 at 02:24 AM (#4026941)

I didn't know about Clemente, so that makes a difference, but the 1B on the team is another HoVG.

Rickey picked Clemente up from the Dodgers as a Rule 5.

95. Tuque

Posted: January 02, 2012 at 03:03 AM (#4026968)

Reese is a Pirates guy.

Aw, crap. You're right. I thought I double-checked that. Well, slot in Wills I guess.

Anyway you're right, it's a little disingenuous to put Piazza at first. I will grant you your points re: the offense - just trying to stoke a friendly rivalry. Speaking of levels of HoFer - one of the things that's interesting about the Dodgers is that they've never had a Musial-Henderson-Wagner-Williams type...lots of great players but one of the only old clubs without an all-time top-20 type.

Edit: A brief look at the top bWAR position players lists the highest Dodger as Duke Snider at #66. Including pitchers, #95.

96. Joe Kehoskie Posted: January 02, 2012 at 03:18 AM (#4026982)

Rickey picked Clemente up from the Dodgers as a Rule 5.

This had to have been an enjoyable bit of revenge on Rickey's part, after having been unceremoniously pushed out by Walter O'Malley just a few years before.

97. Downtown Bookie

Posted: January 02, 2012 at 03:24 AM (#4026989)

Since I haven't seen him mentioned yet, there should be a spot on the Dodgers' roster for Frank Howard.

DB

98. Bernal Diaz has an angel on his shoulder Posted: January 02, 2012 at 04:15 AM (#4027034)

Indians starting pitching:
CC Sabathia
Bob Lemon
Addie Joss
Bob Feller
Cy Young
Dennis Eckersly

99. Bernal Diaz has an angel on his shoulder Posted: January 02, 2012 at 04:29 AM (#4027050)

C Victor Martinez
1b Chris Chambliss
2b Bobby Avila
SS Lou Boudreau
3b Jim Thome
OF Albert Belle
OF Manny Ramirez
OF Earl Averill

100. Rough Carrigan

Posted: January 02, 2012 at 04:49 AM (#4027070)

Hal Trosky would seem to be a better Indians first baseman than Chambliss. Hell, Richie Sexson and Sean Casey would qualify as Indians here and might be better.

Jim Thome at third is a real stretch. Yeah, he started out there but he was no third baseman.

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