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Friday, January 17, 2020

MLB Ineligible List Ends at Death for Banned Players

So there’s this minor kerfuffle about how maybe Joe Jackson can get into the hall now, because MLB has this new rule that you’re removed from the ineligible list when you die.  Except here’s the quote from ESPN’s source:

“From our perspective, the purpose of the ineligible list is a practical matter,” the source told ESPN. “It’s used to prevent someone from working in the game. When a person on the ineligible list passes away, he’s unable to work in the game. And so for all practical purposes, we don’t consider a review of the status of anyone who has passed away.”

Which sounds to me like it means that you don’t get removed.  Jackson is banned, and they stopped reviewing his case after he’s dead - which means that he stays banned.

Ziggy is done with Dominican discotheques Posted: January 17, 2020 at 09:32 PM | 14 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
  Tags: astros, hall of fame, joe jackson, pete rose

Reader Comments and Retorts

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   1. Rennie's Tenet Posted: January 17, 2020 at 10:48 PM (#5917103)
Didn't MLB already say they don't have a position on the Hall's ineligibles' rule, living or dead, when Rose's request for reinstatement was denied?
   2. RoyalsRetro (AG#1F) Posted: January 17, 2020 at 11:06 PM (#5917108)
Great news for zombie baseball players that were banned.
   3. The Yankee Clapper Posted: January 18, 2020 at 12:04 AM (#5917114)
Didn't MLB already say they don't have a position on the Hall's ineligibles' rule, living or dead, when Rose's request for reinstatement was denied?
Yes, this doesn’t change anything unless the Hall itself decides to use it as a pretext for reconsidering the despicable deceased.
   4. Howie Menckel Posted: January 18, 2020 at 12:20 AM (#5917117)
the despicable deceased.

I saw them open for Metallica BITD - the drummer seemed destined for greatness
   5. Joe Bivens, Elderly Northeastern Jew Posted: January 18, 2020 at 10:49 AM (#5917149)
I already like them way more than the Grateful Dead.
   6. bobm Posted: January 18, 2020 at 10:52 AM (#5917151)
How is this news? The list is about being ineligible to work in major league baseball, as far as MLB is formally concerned.

Commissioner Manfred denies reinstatement for Rose
Hall of Fame: All-time hits leader 'remains ineligible' for Cooperstown consideration

By Paul Hagen
December 14, 2015

Pete Rose, who was given a lifetime ban for betting on baseball, will not be reinstated and will continue to be banned from working in baseball, Commissioner Rob Manfred announced Monday.

"Mr. Rose has not presented credible evidence of a reconfigured life either by an honest acceptance by him of his wrongdoing, so clearly established by the Dowd Report, or by a rigorous, self-aware and sustained program of avoidance by him of the circumstances that led to his permanent eligibility in 1989. Absent such credible evidence, allowing him to work in the game presents an unacceptable risk of a future violation by him of Rule 21, and thus to the integrity of our sport," Manfred wrote.

"I, therefore, must reject Mr. Rose's application for reinstatement."

The all-time hits leader, 74, was placed on the permanently ineligible list for violating Major League Baseball's strict rule against betting on baseball on Aug. 23, 1989. Subsequently, the Board of Directors of the National Baseball Hall of Fame and Museum declared that all players on that list would also be ineligible for election.

Manfred's decision, which was communicated to Rose both verbally and in writing, does not directly address that issue.

He wrote: "It is not part of my authority of responsibility here to make any determination concerning Mr. Rose's eligibility as a candidate for election to the National Baseball Hall of Fame. In fact, in my view, the considerations that should drive a decision on whether an individual should be allowed to work in Baseball are not the same as those that should drive a decision on Hall of Fame eligibility. … Thus, any debate over Mr. Rose's eligibility for the Hall of Fame is one that must take place in a different forum."

The National Baseball Hall of Fame later addressed the situation in a statement: "Pete Rose remains ineligible for Hall of Fame consideration, based on the Hall of Fame's bylaws, which preclude any individual on baseball's ineligible list from being considered a candidate for election."


Rose formally exercised his right to appeal his case on April 1, 2015. Manfred first requested a "comprehensive review" of the issues from his staff and then spoke to him in person on Sept. 24. [...]

In a statement, Reds president and chief executive officer Bob Castellini said, "The Commissioner called me this morning prior to the announcement. We respect his decision on the matter of Pete Rose and are grateful for his diligence and the amount of time he spent on the matter. We also appreciate that the Commissioner stated that Hall of Fame consideration is a separate issue and we and the fans think he deserves that opportunity. We are pleased that we have had and will continue to have opportunities to commemorate Pete's remarkable on-field accomplishments. Any future plans to celebrate Pete's career with the Reds first will be discussed with the Commissioner and then will be communicated publicly at the appropriate time." [Emphasis added]


Link
   7. Rob_Wood Posted: January 18, 2020 at 12:16 PM (#5917164)
Maybe I'm not fully awake yet, but I am confused.

Are people in the thread saying:

(1) Since the HOF ruled ineligible any player on MLB's ineligible list, and MLB essentially removes a player from its ineligible list upon his death, this means that Joe Jackson is currently eligible for the HOF

or

(2) Since the HOF ruled ineligible any player on MLB's ineligible list, and MLB does not formally remove a player from its ineligible list upon his death, this means that Joe Jackson is not eligible for the HOF.

Sorry for my obtuseness.

   8. Rennie's Tenet Posted: January 18, 2020 at 12:37 PM (#5917169)
I don't know about the whole thread, but all I was saying is that MLB is on record as saying the Hall can induct who it wants. The full story weirdly quotes an anonymous MLB insider saying what MLB has already said publicly.

It seems ESPN is trying to generate buzz by omitting the central fact that Jackson was not voted in for 50 years before the formal rule was put in place.
   9. Greg Pope Posted: January 18, 2020 at 12:38 PM (#5917170)
I mean, we're parsing these things as if they were literal. Are they? When someone is "placed on the ineligible list", is it just that they are announced as permanently ineligible, or does the commissioner's office keep and publish an actual list?

If there's a list, it should be easy enough to know if players are still on it. And someone would have to take action to actually remove them. If it's a state of being, then they're still banned unless the commissioner announces that they're unbanned.
   10. SoSH U at work Posted: January 18, 2020 at 12:45 PM (#5917172)
(2) Since the HOF ruled ineligible any player on MLB's ineligible list, and MLB does not formally remove a player from its ineligible list upon his death, this means that Joe Jackson is not eligible for the HOF.


It has to be 2 (unless the Hall modifies its rules). MLB will only consider reinstatement from the permanently ineligible list for those who are still alive.

Buck Weaver's family spent many years after his death trying to get him removed from the ineligible list, including pleas made to Rob Manfred. If he were no longer on it, you'd think MLB might have mentioned that to them.

   11. bobm Posted: January 18, 2020 at 01:00 PM (#5917176)
2015 Letter by Commissioner Manfred re: removal of Shoeless Joe Jackson from the Ineligible List

The results of this work demonstrate to me that it is not possible now, over 95 years since those events took place and were considered by Commissioner Landis, to be certain enough of the truth to overrule Commissioner Landis' determinations. Notwithstanding Mr. Jackson's excellent career performance, I also note that, during the many decades he was eligible for election to the National Hall of Fame, he received only 4 total votes: 2 out of 226 cast in 1936 and 2 out of 202 cast in 1946. I appreciate Mr. Jackson's placement on the Ineligible list undoubtedly cast a shadow across his candidacy, but this expression of opinion from those who saw him play and knew him personally has significance concerning the suitability of such an honor.

Finally, I have reviewed our records concerning the responses of both Commissioner Giamatti and Commissioner Vincent, who declined to reconsider Mr. Jackson's case. Commissioner Giamatti determined that "The Jackson case is now best given to historical analysis and debate as opposed to a present-day review with an eye to reinstatement."

I agree with that determination and conclude that it would not be appropriate for me to re-open this matter. Thank you again for writing.
   12. Walt Davis Posted: January 18, 2020 at 06:26 PM (#5917242)
Basically MLB is saying they are not going to spend time reviewing the eligibility of people who are dead. They are, correctly, justifying that by noting that the MLB ineligible list simply means they cannot work in Organized Baseball and that this is obviously moot once they are dead. Therefore there is no point in opening historical reviews of the justice of past decisions.**

The average Joe (and possibly even somebody who should know better like the author of this article) think that MLB's ban includes a HoF ban. The HoF ban is the HoF's business. Folks are looking for a technicality in the HoF rule as noted in #7.1 -- they want to claim that since X is dead, he's no longer on MLB's ineligible list, therefore the HoF ban is no longer in force. MLB is saying "we are not getting involved in this."

MLB's position is reasonably clear. Pete Rose's number is retired by the Reds and is in the Reds' HoF, this all happening in 2016. He was, undeservedly IMO, on the official MLB All-Century Team. Through this, MLB has made it quite clear that even living banned players can be "honored" even by MLB so clearly they can be honored, alive or dead, by non-MLB. It is the HoF that chooses whether Jackson is eligible for the HoF. It is the White Sox who decide whether to honor him by retiring his number or inducting him into their HoF. If anybody needs to clarify a rule here, it's the HoF. MLB is also trying to punt any historical reviews to the HoF or other interested parties.
   13. The Yankee Clapper Posted: January 18, 2020 at 09:08 PM (#5917264)
Call off the Pete Rose suicide watch. Hall of Fame: Deceased Players On Ineligible List Won’t Be Considered:
Any player on Major League Baseball's ineligible list will not be considered for induction into the Baseball Hall of Fame, even after the banned individual's death, a hall spokesman told ESPN on Saturday. "This designation remains in place after an individual's passing," said Jon Shestakofsky, a Baseball Hall of Fame and Museum spokesman.
   14. bbmck Posted: January 19, 2020 at 07:09 AM (#5917309)
The All-Century Team, *special panel choice:

C: Johnny Bench and Yogi Berra
1B: Lou Gehrig and Mark McGwire
2B: Rogers Hornsby and Jackie Robinson
3B: Mike Schmidt and Brooks Robinson
SS: Cal Ripken Jr, Ernie Banks and *Honus Wagner
OF: Babe Ruth, Hank Aaron, Ted Williams, Willie Mays, Joe DiMaggio, Mickey Mantle, Ty Cobb, Ken Griffey Jr, Pete Rose and *Stan Musial
P: Nolan Ryan, Sandy Koufax, Cy Young, Roger Clemens, Bob Gibson, Walter Johnson, *Lefty Grove, *Christy Mathewson and *Warren Spahn

C: Josh Gibson and Carlton Fisk were on the ballot, Gary Carter was not, the panel passing over every Negro League player was simply disgraceful
1B: Jimmie Foxx 325/428/609 over McGwire 265/394/587 but of course McGwire is coming off a 70 HR season and has 28 at the All-Star break when the ballot is released
2B: Joe Morgan not winning the fan vote over Hornsby and Eddie Collins should be surprising but wasn't
3B: Eddie Mathews and George Brett were on the ballot, Wade Boggs was not, Pete Rose could have been here on the ballot which would have made him a pretty credible choice
SS: Banks beats Ozzie Smith in a popularity contest while Wagner's fame is mostly based on the rarity of his baseball card

OF: So many options: Oscar Charleston, Barry Bonds, Rickey Henderson, Frank Robinson, Tris Speaker, Reggie Jackson and Roberto Clemente but the voters were sure Griffey would surpass them all and Rose being one of the most well known players in baseball history meant he was likely to finish Top 9 in the fan vote although to the fan's credit does finish 9th with 8% more votes than Clemente
P: Cy Young is pushing the century boundary, he's 33 in 1900 but he's going to place Top 6 in the fan vote simply because the award is named after him. Nolan and Koufax are also fan vote locks. Walter and Roger are excellent fan choices and Bob Gibson is a pretty surprising final pick. Maddux would probably be a worse choice than Griffey at the time but would look a lot better now. Satchel Paige, Tom Seaver and I'd prefer the dominance of Bob Feller over the 363 wins of Warren Spahn although both are living war veterans at the time.

Overall the fans do a really good job, the special panel does a terrible job. The lack of Negro League players should absolutely be the top priority to at least pick one if not all 4 who make the ballot (Satchel, Gibson, Cool Papa Bell and Buck Leonard). Honus Wagner is their only selection who is clearly a snub, Honus simply has to be one of the two best SS while Musial is probably one of the 9 best OF and could have also been slotted at 1B on the ballot. None of the pitchers selected really stands out, assuming there are only 3 slots available because of the fame of Cy, Sandy and Nolan.

Fan vote: Walter Johnson, Roger Clemens, Bob Gibson
Special panel: Lefty Grove, Christy Mathewson, Warren Spahn
Snubs: Satchel Paige, Tom Seaver, Bob Feller
Snubs: Bullet Rogan, Steve Carlton, Pete Alexander

Bullet doesn't make the ballot as one of the Top 26 pitchers of the century but Rollie Fingers does. The job of the panel is in theory to add players who "clearly" should be the two best at an infield position, among the nine best OF or 6 best pitchers. Honus Wagner, Jimmie Foxx, then Warren Spahn or Bob Feller for a living war veteran and then Satchel Paige and Josh Gibson. I'm willing to grade the panel 2 out of 5 but no higher. Meanwhile the wisdom of crowds does a stellar job, last 100 MLB seasons I wonder how many of Mariano Rivera, David Ortiz, Derek Jeter, Ken Griffey Jr, Pete Rose, Sandy Koufax and Nolan Ryan win a fan vote.

C: pretty sure Bench and Yogi win again
1B/DH: Gehrig remains a lock and probably/hopefully Albert Pujols beats Ortiz
DH: if separate probably Ortiz and Frank Thomas
2B: Jackie remains a lock, maybe Joe Morgan wins this time but most of Hornsby's career is still in
3B: Schmidt remains a lock, I'm sure Rose gets the 2nd spot if listed here if not maybe George Brett beats Brooks this time or Rose vs A-Rod here to clear up the next spot
SS: Cal, A-Rod and Jeter probably push out Banks but no clue who is 3rd among the trio

OF: Ruth, Mays, Barry, Ted, Mantle, Hank, Rickey, Trout, Frank
OF: Musial, Rose, Griffey, Ott, Yaz, Clemente, Kaline, DiMaggio, Reggie
P: Nolan and Koufax are going to win a fan vote and fans could easily pick the Fab Four all active 1992-2007 for the rest. Seaver, Rivera, Grove, Spahn, Feller, Gibson, Carlton

OF of the last 50 seasons: Barry, Trout, Rickey, Reggie, Griffey, Rose, Manny, Gwynn, Ichiro
Other options: Winfield, Yount, Vlad, Sosa, Puckett, Walker, Beltran, Raines, Giancarlo

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