Maybe they should take a step back and simply say if the umps determine one side or the other is gaming the system they can step in and award a ball or strike as the case may be

I'm surprised they have saddled the HP ump with these jobs. Seems like the 2nd base or 3rd base ump coild manage pitch clock violations - they have absolutely nothing to do all game anyhow

I'm surprised they have saddled the HP ump with these jobs. Seems like the 2nd base or 3rd base ump coild manage pitch clock violations - they have absolutely nothing to do all game anyhow

It's an an interesting quirk of the sport that one umpire each game has an extraordinary amount of work and the other three can go the entire game without being asked to make any meaningful call.

The language in that excerpt was confusing to me, so if you didn't see it, this video was really helpful: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W-0TloibbBM

When the excerpt says that Contreras was in a "hitting position," that's kind of true - his hands are back and his bat is up, but he's in a very open stance with his left foot out of the box. He is looking at (engaged with?) the pitcher, at least on one of the pitches. But unless you're Tony Batista, that's not a hitting position to me, even though his bat is back. And even if it's a pseudo-hitting position, one foot is out of the box. There was another violation they showed later of a different hitter - both of his feet were in the box and he was in a similar stance to Contreras. In that situation, I'm all for the pitcher being allowed to come set and throw a pitch.

I also wonder if this is a problem more for some pitchers than others. Jansen has a very deliberate motion to come set. If he can't begin that motion until the 8-second mark, he might have difficulty delivering the pitch on time while holding a runner effectively. I definitely think this was gamesmanship by Contreras to wait until the last second to get set, forcing Jansen to wait on him (and taking advantage when he didn't).

I'm all for this warning by MLB. Get in the box, get ready to hit, and if you don't, you get a strike. I'm sure there are a handful of people who enjoy this kind of gamesmanship, but I can't imagine it's anywhere near a significant number of baseball fans.

#3 I'm all for allowing the pitcher to come set and throw as soon as he gets the ball.

But unless you're Tony Batista, that's not a hitting position

This made me smile.

So important question

Was Batista overrated or underrated ?

He is one of only five players to have a season of 25 or more homers but an OPS+ less than 82, and he did that twice in back to back seasons in 2003-2004. Rougned Odor is only other player to that twice. Report Link

But between 1998-2002 he was a 3 WAR player who posted a 103 OPS+ and averaged +7 fielding runs per year, and never a negative year in that span. I think he might have been overrated by some, who primarily looked at the 30-40 , 100+ RBI seasons, and underrated by some who primarily looked at the OBP .

#3 I'm all for allowing the pitcher to come set and throw as soon as he gets the ball.

I've spoken to numerous hitters and league officials about this. It's a safety issue. Can't do it.

Maybe they should take a step back and simply say if the umps determine one side or the other is gaming the system they can step in and award a ball or strike as the case may be

I agree that they need to step back and assess at this point. When you make a rule and then keep making tweaks, you're bound to end up with something that's unnecessarily complicated. And that's where we are now.

Right now, the umpire has to determine if the hitter is ready and the pitcher has to separately make the same determination. The pitcher has to then hope that his assessment matches the umpire's. Let's eliminate this guessing game. Have the umpire determine when the batter is ready. If he's not ready by 8 seconds, it's a ball. If the umpire determines he is ready before 8 seconds, he signals the pitcher to pitch. If the pitcher pitches before the umpire says it's okay, he gets penalized.

The video is interesting. At ):46, the umpire is making the call, but by the camera behind the plate, Contreras seems to be standing on the line. My other thought is that players were never called for standing outside the box before, particularly behind it, in part because it seemed for years like the job of the leadoff hitter was to erase the box.

I also wonder if this is a problem more for some pitchers than others. Jansen has a very deliberate motion to come set. If he can't begin that motion until the 8-second mark, he might have difficulty delivering the pitch on time while holding a runner effectively. I definitely think this was gamesmanship by Contreras to wait until the last second to get set, forcing Jansen to wait on him (and taking advantage when he didn't).

It absolutely was gamesmanship by Contreras, the Angels complained about it in the previous series. And someone mentioned that Jansen was one of the slower pitchers in baseball the previous seasons, so I'm thinking he's (Jansen) is aware of that and is trying to comply with the rules and is starting his pitch as soon as he can. I'm glad the league said something, but like others I would prefer for the ump to have discretionary decision making in whether it's the batter or pitcher that gets the penalty.

Coach, what does circumvent mean?

Batista ... he was "fine." He was a bit of a trailblazer but his type is pretty common now. He hit the ball hard (I was gonna say he didn't hit it often but he didn't K that much actually). He was roughly Javy Baez. The years in which he could manage a 275 BA -- which would boost the OBP to at least 310-320 -- and play an above-average SS, he was quite valuable. The shift to 3B reduced his defensive value (it didn't boost his Rfield) and his relative offensive value, then the BA started to drop a bit. Once the defense declines or the BA drops to 230 (or the OBP below 300) or the ISO drops below 80, these guys are done.

We can always crudely divide a player's ability into 4 categories, ordered roughly in importance: getting on base, hitting for power, defensive value, baserunning. Batista was bad at the first one, was average at the last one but was good at power and defense. That will usually add up to an average or better player. For his era, his bat would not be useful at 1B/LF/RF, was overall fine for 2B/3B/CF assuming at least average defense, was good for a SS assuming at least average defense.

I'm surprised to see that Batista's K rate wasn't high, even for his era. He hit a LOT of FBs for his era though. His G/F ratio was lower than Schwarber's, not quite as low as Gallo's. He was all about the launch angle.

So Baez, Probably the sort of hitter Oneil Cruz will be (positive is Cruz draws his walks). A very poor man's Miguel Tejada. Batista is an interesting comp to Jose Hernandez -- about the same in their primes except Hernandez didn't hold a full-time job but then Hernandez had a lot more PT before and after as a bnech player.

TB 5000 PA, 14 WAR, -3 WAA, 251/299/453, 93 OPS+ over 11 seasons
JH 5100 PA, 13 WAR, -2 WAA, 252/312/418, 88 OPS+ over 15 seasons

Uncle Walt's "this guy should be starting somewhere in the majors" Typology


Adam Everett (13 WAR, 3 WAA) -- top glove at SS or C or maybe CF (must add steals), can't hit a lick ... min allowable OPS+ about 65, starts maybe 120 games

Tony Batista (14 WAR, -3 WAA) -- good glove IF/CF with pop, not much else ... min allowable OPS+ about 85-90

Glenn Hubbard (19 WAR, 2 WAA) -- good glove IF/CF, gets on base about league average, nothing else ... min allowable OPS+ about 85

Juan Pierre (16 WAR, -2 WAA through 31)** -- CF/LF, BA without power/walks, good when he hits 300, average at 280, Rajai Davis at 260 ... OPS+ 90-95

Rob Deer (14 WAR, -1 WAA) -- corner, terrible BA with power/walks ... OPS+ 100-105

Mark Trumbo (10 WAR, -6 WAA ... not quite the right guy) -- corner, BA + power, no walks ... OPS+ about 100-105

Mitch Moreland (11 WAR, -5 WAA) -- we all know Mitch Moreland starting 1B is a sign of FO failure but the glove is OK, the BA is kinda OK, the OBP is kinda OK, the power is kinda OK, he'll gladly show up every day for a modest salary.

Most of those guys are average which means the real in/out line is probably half a WAR below them -- i.e more Trumbo/Moreland than Hubbard -- but those guys are the good bench/lousy starter line and even harder to think of than these guys are.

** Pierre was quite bad from 32 on but the White Sox kept trotting him out there, killed his WAA (1.4 WAR, -6 WAA from 32-35). In just two years the Sox gave him over 1400 PA of replacement level.

Forgot my (unoriginal) point, captured by the typology. You've got the 4 components. Obviously if you're average at all 4, you're an average player overall. That pretty much means that if you are good at two of them, you will be at least average. Batista was good at defense and power. You'd have to be really bad at getting on base to not be worth substantial playing time. Being really good at one of the first two is usually enough to get you on the field, even in a corner.

Billy Hamilton (2 PAs this year!) is near 3300 PAs, 10 WAR, 0 WAA on nothing but speed with the key caveat that, unlike many speedsters, he successfully translated speed into defense. It's pretty amazing really, a sign of how fast he is ... 147 runs across Rbase, Rdp, Rfield and Rpos, arguably all down just to his speed, exactly balancing his 66 OPS+ and -146 Rbat.

Baseball, a great game where Billy Hamilton and Dan Vogelbach both fit.

Baseball, a great game where Billy Hamilton and Dan Vogelbach both fit.

ladies and gentlemen, the first sentence ever typed that included both "Dan Vogelbach" and "fit" !

I think the umps just need to get their heads out of their asses. If he's not in a position to be pitched to, that's a batter violation. If he is, how the f is that a pitcher violation? It's like the ump(s) couldn't tell what color the dress was, so they declared it to be a living chicken. Either logical interpretation goes in favor of the pitcher, so... rule in favor of the batter for reasons! Yay!

Great stuff Walt.

Baseball, a great game where Billy Hamilton and Dan Vogelbach both fit.

Or where Juan Pierre and Adam Dunn have the same value in the same playing time in the same era. Although baseball being baseball, Dunn was paid twice as much



Provided by Stathead.com: View Stathead Tool Used
Generated 5/20/2023.

Well, the salary difference is mostly which guy got the larger free agent contract. Dunn had a better career WAA/WAR at the time he signed his than did Pierre. But it is true, HR get paid better.

Batter violation the whole way.

I think umpires ought to have wide discretion to enforce "no funny stuff" if this rule is going to succeed. The last thing we need is this kind of "I'm in the box, no wait, I'm not in the box, ha ha!" nonsense.

Biggest difference between Adam Dunn and Juan Pierre is that White Sox gave Dunn 56 million for 2011 and on while Pierre signed in 2006 for 44 million.

Batter violation the whole way.

Agreed. This was entirely on Contreras, and he's the one who should have been penalized.

I think umpires ought to have wide discretion to enforce "no funny stuff" if this rule is going to succeed. The last thing we need is this kind of "I'm in the box, no wait, I'm not in the box, ha ha!" nonsense.

I wonder if Contreras would have tried that crap with Bob Gibson on the hill. I doubt there would have been any need for the umpire to enforce the no funny stuff rule.

I wonder if Contreras would have tried that crap with Bob Gibson on the hill.

You wouldn't even need Bob, I'm sure former Red Sox hurler Martinez would've been more than happy to let Contreras know what he thinks of his bush league antics.

"You want to get to first that bad? Let me help you out."