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Thursday, July 09, 2020

MLB Owners Will Look For Ways To Recover Millions In Lost Revenue

First, expansion would bring a minimum of $1 billion to be split among the existing owners. That would be the floor of what expansion owners would have to pay to become members of one of the most private clubs in the world. After all, there are currently only 30 team membership groups owning major league franchises.

Secondly, expansion would offer the opportunity to balance baseball’s two leagues to an even number of 16 teams per league. That would make scheduling and travel easier….

Baseball will no longer be shy or reticent about partnerships with legalized gambling. More and more states are permitting sports wagering through both online and in-person methods. Casinos abound and are thriving. Betting sites can be easily found and easily navigated on the internet.

The net result of the gambling explosion has not escaped the world of professional sports.


RoyalsRetro (AG#1F) Posted: July 09, 2020 at 02:20 PM | 40 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
  Tags: expansion, gambling

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   1. Pat Rapper's Delight (as quoted on MLB Network) Posted: July 09, 2020 at 03:13 PM (#5961914)
The net result of the gambling explosion has not escaped the world of professional sports.

Free money! What could possibly go wrong?
Claus Lundekvam's claims that "spot-fix" betting was rife when he was a player have attracted the attention of world governing body FIFA, which is also battling against the widespread problem of match-fixing. The Premier League has a well-documented gambling culture, with big names such as Michael Owen and Wayne Rooney owning race horses and featuring in big-stake "card schools" on international and club duty.

"For a while we did this almost every week," Lundekvam told a Norwegian television channel. "We made a fair bit of money. We could make deals with the opposing captain. For example, betting on the first throw, the first corner, who started with the ball, a yellow card or a penalty. Those were the sorts of thing we had influence over. The results were never on the agenda. That is something I would never have done. We were professional competitors. Even though what we did, of course, was illegal, it was just a fun thing."

Lars Bohinen was an international teammate of Lundekvam's and enjoyed an eight-year Premier League career with Blackburn Rovers, Nottingham Forest and Derby County. "One of the examples Claus put forward was that you could bet on the first throw-in," said Bohinen, who retired in 2005. ... Bohinen did acknowledge that players would bet thousands of pounds on the way to matches. "It's not well known, but there have been cases," he said. "People could lose £3,000 or £4,000 on a bus trip to London. Obviously that's not the best way to prepare for a game. At one of my clubs they put an end to gambling on the bus on the way to away games. I think there are a lot more problems going on than people get to hear about."
   2. RoyalsRetro (AG#1F) Posted: July 09, 2020 at 03:53 PM (#5961927)
What is stopping game-fixing in baseball right now? I guess I don't understand what MLB getting involved would change in that regard.
   3. The Yankee Clapper Posted: July 09, 2020 at 04:22 PM (#5961932)
MLB Owners Will Look For Ways To Recover Millions In Lost Revenue
Coming soon - pay toilets at the ballpark.
   4. Jeremy Renner App is Dead and I killed it Posted: July 09, 2020 at 04:27 PM (#5961933)
2--My dad has this old t-shirt that says 3 people can keep a secret if 2 of them are dead. Per Google this was from Ben Franklin. So only players not being able to keep this quiet I guess??
   5. Ziggy: social distancing since 1980 Posted: July 09, 2020 at 05:04 PM (#5961946)
Owners are out to maximize their return. If expansion and gambling are net gains for them, wouldn't they be expanding and going into gambling whether or not there were losses this year?
   6. Stevey Posted: July 09, 2020 at 05:36 PM (#5961952)
5 - its easier to sell to the public now. Remember, in America, its every member of the leisure class' divine right to never have to suffer the risk that normally is associated with the reward of ownership. So when they say (even if they refuse to prove) they might lose money, people will bend over backwards to give benefits to billionaires. Many people are averse to gambling being more mainstream, but not as averse as they are to the ultra-wealthy maybe being a little less ultra-wealthy.
   7. Walt Davis Posted: July 09, 2020 at 06:58 PM (#5961974)
#2 fair point. The issue is essentially about "standards." You shouldn't gamble, you shouldn't take money from gambling interests but it's OK if we can take money from them. "You Dad! I learned it from you!" It was a long time ago but Mantle and Mays got a year's suspension from OB affiliations for doing what now happens regularly in baseball board rooms. The ship has of course sailed so all moot now.

MLB gets to set aside some common revenue as not being gnerated by players -- for example when they sold off some of the technical pieces of MLB-AM. Anybody know if the gambling money is considered player-generated?
   8. McCoy Posted: July 09, 2020 at 07:49 PM (#5961988)
What is stopping game fixing right now? The millions the players make by not game fixing.

Now if they allow all the little wagers like first error, first pick off attempt, first bunny attempt, and so on it opens more possibilities of bet fixing.
   9. Pat Rapper's Delight (as quoted on MLB Network) Posted: July 09, 2020 at 07:56 PM (#5961989)
Walt gets it. By normalizing relationships between teams and bookmakers (along with the inevitable promotion of being the "official gaming partner" of a team), they will be creating a culture of encouraging their players to gamble. Does anyone really think the Tigers are the only team that's going to have its own bookie?

BBC: Does [English] football have a gambling problem?
In a study of almost 350 footballers and cricketers conducted by the Professional Players’ Federation (PPF), results suggested sportspeople were three times more likely than the general public to be problem gamblers. One in 10 sportsmen interviewed by the PPF said they gambled to "fit in", one in four said they were encouraged by team-mates to do it, and nearly one in three thought their team's links with the gambling industry "encouraged" them to bet.

In April 2017, Joey Barton, then playing for Burnley, was suspended from football for 18 months, for placing 1,260 bets on matches between 2006 and 2016.

Some of those 1,260 bets were for his team to lose matches he was playing in. In the accompanying photo, Barton is shown in a jersey prominently bearing the logo and name of a bookmaking racket based in the Philippines.
   10. Ron J Posted: July 09, 2020 at 08:23 PM (#5961992)
#8 The most recent major cricket scandal involved proposition bets. It's easier to sell the players on the concept that their team isn't getting hurt.

   11. McCoy Posted: July 09, 2020 at 08:33 PM (#5961995)
Prop bets fits right in with the competition culture that all sports has. I bet you I can do this. I bet you I can do that. A lot of these players are already making a ton of bets on things they do at the very least off the field of play
   12. PreservedFish Posted: July 09, 2020 at 09:20 PM (#5962008)
And it would be so easy to do. If you can place an insta-bet on stupid minor events, it would only take one co-conspirator in the stands with a smart phone to make a few bucks.
   13. Howie Menckel Posted: July 09, 2020 at 10:50 PM (#5962024)
states tend to bar silly in-game bets like "will the first pitch be a ball or strike" for precisely the reasons noted above. legal books can't just offer any wagers they like.

as for "match fixing," yes that is an issue well beyond whether sports betting is legal. fixers have never needed for gambling to be legal to thrive.

in fact, regulated gambling is more likely to prove an impediment there than a boon.
   14. Jay Z Posted: July 09, 2020 at 11:21 PM (#5962034)
Black Sox scandal came right after a pandemic. MLB will be scrapping for money both sides whenever it gets back. We'll see what happens.
   15. Ron J Posted: July 09, 2020 at 11:51 PM (#5962040)
#14 Thing is that the Black Sox scandal was just the culmination of a long standing problem in baseball. Accusations against Hal Chase for instance went back for years.
   16. Howie Menckel Posted: July 10, 2020 at 12:30 AM (#5962044)
yes re 15.

the Black Sox scandal had nothing to do with the pandemic a century ago. players were suspected of - and sometimes guilty of - fixing games decades before that happened.
   17. John Northey Posted: July 10, 2020 at 02:17 AM (#5962059)
Expansion is the obvious route to go - 2 teams, $2 billion+. There is half the 'lost' revenue right there. I found it funny the listed Vancouver as I'm Canadian and haven't heard rumours about a team there in a long time (decades). Portland and Montreal make the most sense with the least issue for territory rights and large underserved populations. Nashville, Vegas, and Charlotte I see battles brewing for rights (maybe Portland too) however Montreal should be OK as the Jays have indicated that they are good with a team there again and PR wise it would look bad for them to kill it. Oakland is pretty secure now as their ownership group is buying the stadium last I heard which puts them pretty invested in the area. Tampa is a mess with them locked in until 2027 in that horrid park with no fans - full credit to the city for not letting them out of that lease.

Gambling looks like a very dumb move imo. The money tends to be short term (see any region with casinos where they were supposed to solve all money issues and didn't due to other issues it brings) and really not worth the hit it can cause to the integrity of the game.

Not mentioned was playoff expansion which I see as the easiest way to get more revenue long term. Players seemed open to it and if the owners use expansion as leverage then playoff expansion should be simple to get. 16 teams in every year like NBA/NHL - yeah, the purist in me hates it but I don't see how it can be avoided now. Maybe radical realignment while at it and have 8 divisions with 4 teams each and then 8 division winners get in and the 8 best non winners. I see it as

West 1: Seattle/SF/Oak/Colorado (they are tough to put anywhere)
West 2: Dodgers/Angels/Padres/Arizona
East 1: NYY/Mets/Phillies/Red Sox
South 1: Rays/Miami/Atlanta/Charlotte-Nashville
Central 1: Washington/Baltimore/Pittsburgh/Cleveland
Central 2: Toronto/Detroit/Cincinnati/Montreal - Cincinnati is the oddball here but can't fit them elsewhere
Central 3: White Sox/Cubs/Brewers/Twins
Central 4: Houston/Texas/KC/St Louis

Portland would go West 1 if there, if Vegas then this becomes a royal mess (I see Dodgers/Angels/Padres and SF/Oakland as mandatory mixes, Seattle is on its own up there, Arizona & Colorado are floaters like Seattle with no nature local rivals). Hate having St Louis away from the Cubs but it makes too much sense to have the 2 Chicago teams/Milwaukee/Minnesota together)

If radical realignment happens it will result in lots of fights I'm sure among owners. But it would make the season more interesting.
   18. Walt Davis Posted: July 10, 2020 at 06:46 AM (#5962064)
Don't see those happening. No way they split Dodgers-Giants, no way they split Cubs-Cards (they tried that once and both teams vetoed).

So, assuming leagues don't really exist:

W1: Sea/Oak/Angels/Colorado
W2: LAD/SFG/Padres/AZ
E1: NYY/Bos/Mon/ one of Pitt, Cle, Tor
E2: Wash/Balt/Philly/Mets
S1: Same
C1: other 2 of Pitt, Cle, Tor ... Det, Cincy
C2: Cubs, Cards, Milw, Twins
C3: CWS/Hou/Tex/KC (yeah, that one doesn't really work, what ya gonna do)

Now if you put a team in Vegas or Portland, then you can shift COL to C3, the White Sox to C1 and put Cincy in the south (in place of Nash/Charl) or Pitt/Tor to E1 in place of Montreal. Or we could try New Orleans which works fine in C3 creating the same domino effects for the White Sox.

Or we could go back to 24 teams and put Cincy and Atl in the NL West where God intended.
   19. Adam Starblind Posted: July 10, 2020 at 08:00 AM (#5962069)
5 - its easier to sell to the public now. Remember, in America, its every member of the leisure class' divine right to never have to suffer the risk that normally is associated with the reward of ownership. So when they say (even if they refuse to prove) they might lose money, people will bend over backwards to give benefits to billionaires. Many people are averse to gambling being more mainstream, but not as averse as they are to the ultra-wealthy maybe being a little less ultra-wealthy.

The ultra wealthy are superheroes in this country. Always have been. Rockefeller, JP Morgan, Bill Gates, Warren Buffet. Heck, before the Revolutionary War, George Washington was primarily famous for being one of the richest men in America.

As an (I hope) uncontroversial political aside, this is something Trump understands well that Romney and McCain (not even "ultra" rich) never did, and allowed themselves to get beaten up over it.
   20. Adam Starblind Posted: July 10, 2020 at 08:02 AM (#5962070)
Mantle and Mays got a year's suspension from OB affiliations

This is America in 2020. There's no reason a man shouldn't be allowed to endorse a tampon if he wants to.
   21. villageidiom Posted: July 10, 2020 at 10:00 AM (#5962077)
Tampa is a mess with them locked in until 2027 in that horrid park with no fans - full credit to the city for not letting them out of that lease.

1. Expand by two teams, in Portland (AL) and Tampa (NL), moving into new stadiums.
2. Use the expansion fees to pay off the Trop lease.
3. Move the Rays to Montreal (AL).

Not necessarily in that order.

That might seem like two more steps than necessary, and maybe it is. But there are several problems (from MLB's perspective) to be solved here:

a. Tampa stadium. While they have the stadium lease, the Rays aren't going to get a new stadium built, and it's not cost-effective for them to move to another city. If they want an MLB team in Tampa in a new stadium before 2028 they need to resolve the lease. The only ways to resolve it are to fulfill it to its conclusion or to buy it out. But to maximize public funding for a stadium they need a plausible scenario that they won't have a team unless they build. So...

b. Team in Montreal. Like, Montreal could support a team *now*. Slag the O as much as you want, but it's more major-league than the Trop. The city is ready. Moving the Rays there solves the short-term Montreal issue, and incentivizes a new stadium for Tampa for...

c. Expansion. Duh.

d. League realignment. The biggest rivalries in MLB are Yankees/Red Sox, Cardinals/Cubs, and Giants/Dodgers. There's a geographic component to these, but there's another important aspect: each pair shares a league. It might be easier to develop more regional rivalries if teams in that region are in the same league. Switch Tampa to NL, and put Montreal (and Portland) in the AL, and I think you're setting yourself up for more rivalries.
   22. Adam Starblind Posted: July 10, 2020 at 10:56 AM (#5962085)
21: But why put one of the expansion franchises right back in Tampa? Attendance there has been gruesome for twenty years.
   23. winnipegwhip Posted: July 10, 2020 at 11:44 AM (#5962091)
So the delay in replay reviews from New York will be partially due to the fact that the instant replay reviewer is contacting his brother to get an in game bet before he sends his review decision back to the ballpark.
   24. Ziggy: social distancing since 1980 Posted: July 10, 2020 at 11:50 AM (#5962093)
I'm inclined to think that expansion isn't such a hot idea. The new teams will almost certainly be revenue sharing recipients, so the big market teams are losing some of the money they'll bring in from expansion fees right there. (And eventually they're going to lose all of it, because these teams are going to keep drinking from the revenue sharing cup.) It also further dilutes merchandising and other IP revenue streams. And even if these are small market teams, they'll presumably bid on free agents sometimes, driving up labor costs. Moreover, anyone who might buy a team presumably knows all of this, and so expanding will have a negative effect on franchise values.

My inclination is to think that the thing to do here is to accept a year with lower-than-normal revenues, and move on.
   25. McCoy Posted: July 10, 2020 at 11:57 AM (#5962095)
Lower revenue is likely to be a long term issue. Not a one year blip.
   26. Bug Selig Posted: July 10, 2020 at 01:41 PM (#5962125)
My local video store has added CBD oil. Life ain't just hard for billionaires.
   27. The Yankee Clapper Posted: July 10, 2020 at 01:58 PM (#5962130)
Owners might want expansion fees more now due to the loss of other revenues, but the necessary prerequisites for expansion remain: (1) mega-billionaires willing to pay the huge fee and endure possible losses for several start-up years; and (2) a local government in a plausible expansion city willing to pay for a stadium, or include so much additional real estate and other sweeteners that the owners would be willing to build a stadium themselves. I don’t think we’re any closer to satisfying those prerequisites in any of the likely expansion cities, but perhaps there are sub rosa developments that will eventually come to fruition. It will likely be difficult to get local governments to subsidize a stadium in the post-coronavirus political/financial climate, so I suspect expansion remains on the back burner for now.
   28. Where have you gone Brady Anderson? Posted: July 10, 2020 at 05:05 PM (#5962174)
It's pretty hard to keep the basic league structure intact, and keep divisions fairly close geographically, unless one of the potential expansion teams is in the East somewhere. The AL East would be Boston, New York, Baltimore, and one more. The NL East would be New York, Philadelphia, Washington, and one more. Options to round out the East divisions would be the Florida teams, an expansion or relocated team in Montreal, an expansion team in North Carolina, or you could include Pittsburgh or Atlanta in the NL East.

The West divisions are more straightforward. NL West would be Los Angeles, San Francisco, San Diego, and Arizona. AL West would be Oakland, Seattle, Los Angeles and either Colorado or an expansion team in Portland or Las Vegas. You could move Arizona to the AL instead of Colorado if you wanted.

The most logical AL Central would be Cleveland, Detroit, Chicago, and one more (most likely keeping Minnesota or Kansas City). The NL Central would be Cincinnati, Chicago, St. Louis, and one more. This is where Colorado would fit if a Western expansion team crowds them out. The fourth could also be Pittsburgh, unless you need to move it to the East. Atlanta could also kind of fit. A Nashville expansion team could also fit in the NL Central.

You could create an NL South division with Texas, Houston, Miami, and either Tampa Bay or Atlanta or a North Carolina or Nashville or San Antonio expansion team. You could create an AL North division with Minnesota (meaning Kansas City stays in the central), Milwaukee, Toronto, and Montreal.
   29. McCoy Posted: July 11, 2020 at 07:43 AM (#5962274)
By local video store do you mean porn store?
   30. Lassus Posted: July 11, 2020 at 07:49 AM (#5962275)
I'm inclined to think that expansion isn't such a hot idea.

I cant really see how it is ever going to be a hot idea, pandemic or no.
   31. bigglou115 is not an Illuminati agent Posted: July 11, 2020 at 02:29 PM (#5962318)
Of the couple of "South" divisions I've seen I'm not sure how you convince the owners. The Braves do fine with TV viewership, but their gate isn't great and they'd be the anchor in a division with them, an expansion team and 2 Florida teams. I actually can't see any team agreeing to be in a division with the 2 lowest gates in baseball. Over a couple of years you'd probably get the whole division down into the bottom 10.

Also, I find it weird that everyone tries to sell 2 more teams as simplifying the schedule. We're not that far removed from the Atros in the NL, having an even number of teams in the league is clearly not a priority.
   32. jmp Posted: July 11, 2020 at 07:46 PM (#5962351)
By local video store do you mean porn store?

   33. John Northey Posted: July 11, 2020 at 08:48 PM (#5962363)
Video store? What is that? Thought they vanished with the dinosaurs :) So says a guy born before someone walked on the moon.

With 2 new teams and no radical realignment you get 2 divisions with 6 teams and 2 with 5 (just add new teams to whatever division), or split into just 2 divisions per league ala pre-1993 with 8 teams each...
AL East: NYY, Tampa, Boston, Toronto, Baltimore, expansion (Montreal, Nashville, or Charlotte), Detroit Cleveland (very logical)
AL West: Houston, Oakland, Texas, LAA, Seattle, Kansas City, ChiSox, Twins

NL East: Atlanta, Washington, NYM, Philly, Miami, Cincinnati, Pittsburgh, Milwaukee
NL West: St Louis, Cubs, LAD, SF, Arizona, Colorado, Padres, Portland

Doing this you keep the splitting of areas between leagues while holding long term rivalries. Just 2 locks for playoffs plus however many wildcards needed. Much preferred imo to a 4 division per league format as the fewer divisions the less risk of a sub 500 team 'winning' a division title. Expansion to 16 teams in the playoffs will lead to the odd sub 500 getting in but at least we won't see too many.
   34. Walt Davis Posted: July 12, 2020 at 09:05 PM (#5962479)
When I did this sort of thing in OOTP, I'd make 4 8-team divisions. Remember that MLB can expand playoffs without expanding teams in the playoffs by just making the WC series a real series. That's not a particular exciting way to start a playoffs though but 4 division winners and 8 WCs gives the division winners a bye and 4 real series in round 1, then 4, 2, 1. Of course it being OOTP, I could rule with an iron fist so I moved the Rays and an expansion team into NY metro to even out some market share.
   35. McCoy Posted: July 12, 2020 at 09:19 PM (#5962482)
Well, if they had ever wanted to put another team in now would be a good time. MLB can play kingmaker in the Mets deal and the condition would be you have to okay the addition of a third team in NY.

Makes it a lot easier to expand MLB by 2 teams if you can put one in NYC.

They can always sugar it with a contract that states they play half their games in each NYC stadium until theirs gets built and they have to pay rent until then as well.
   36. Howie Menckel Posted: July 12, 2020 at 09:37 PM (#5962486)
MLB can play kingmaker in the Mets deal and the condition would be you have to okay the addition of a third team in NY.

and the Yankees say yes because - what, they love A-Rod?

not. gonna. happen.

the ideal spot for a team in the region that appears to be veto-proof re Mets and Yankees is Clifton, NJ in the shadow of the Meadowlands (well, all of Passaic County - but West Milford scholastic teams aren't called the "Highlanders" because they are vintage Yankees fans. grab a shotgun and some cross-country skis.)

but we've been over the reasons why it's not clear it would work there, even granting the yuge population in the area.
   37. SoSH U at work Posted: July 12, 2020 at 10:06 PM (#5962490)
We're not that far removed from the Atros in the NL, having an even number of teams in the league is clearly not a priority.

Having an odd number of teams in each league is not a problem (well, not an intractable one. It's a problem in the sense it requires interleague play). Having an odd number of teams overall is considerably more challenging, given teams play in series. Even with a staggered schedule, I suspect it would be hard to avoid having teams routinely getting two straight days off or having to travel more than they do now.
   38. Bug Selig Posted: July 14, 2020 at 09:20 AM (#5962788)
#29 - I hope not, because it is called "Family Video".
   39. phredbird Posted: July 14, 2020 at 12:23 PM (#5962817)

i've said it before, i'll throw in my two cents now.

add two teams, one in brooklyn, one in san antonio.

eight 4-team divisions, with the mississippi being a divider similar to the NBA.

just make sure STL/CHC are on the same side of the mississippi so to speak.

no wild cards.

i'll leave it to others to figure out the divisions and playoffs, but it can work.

this probably would have been an easier sell before COVID. now it looks like anything can happen.
   40. The Yankee Clapper Posted: July 14, 2020 at 02:04 PM (#5962844)
MLB can play kingmaker in the Mets deal and the condition would be you have to okay the addition of a third team in NY..
Why not restore the two-team status of Boston, Philadelphia & St. Louis while you’re at it? About as likely.

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