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Wednesday, October 06, 2021

MLB plans COVID-19 vaccine mandate for minor-league players in 2022


Major League Baseball is finalizing a policy that would require all minor-league players to be vaccinated before the 2022 season, Yahoo Sports has learned. It’ll be the latest in a series of vaccine mandates that MLB and teams have rolled out recently to cover more and more people within the baseball world.

The commissioner’s office requires all employees to be vaccinated and some teams, starting with the Washington Nationals and Houston Astros, have done the same — mandating that all non-playing full-time employees get the vaccine or receive a medical or religious exemption. Several executives like Nationals VP Bob Boone resigned over the requirement, while other employees who refused were fired or quit.

As first reported by The Athletic, MLB required “managers, coaches, athletic trainers and other non-playing personnel” of playoff teams to get at least the first dose of the vaccine before Oct. 4 in order to gain access to restricted areas, like the field, during the postseason. Most recently, MLB informed teams that all players who plan to participate in the Arizona Fall League later this month. A source told azcentral that some rosters were adjusted to account for the mandate, the first of its kind to apply to players themselves.

RoyalsRetro (AG#1F) Posted: October 06, 2021 at 05:16 PM | 80 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
  Tags: coronavirus, minor leagues, vaccines

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   1. For the Turnstiles (andeux) Posted: October 06, 2021 at 05:57 PM (#6044062)
Good.
   2. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: October 06, 2021 at 07:09 PM (#6044065)
Be nice if they paid them minimum wage first. I'd love to see half the minor leaguers quit mid season and let MLB suck on it.

NB: I am not anti-vax, and am vaccinated myself. I'm just anti-coercion.

mandating that all non-playing full-time employees get the vaccine or receive a medical or religious exemption.


Although his makes it little more than a PR gesture.
   3. winnipegwhip Posted: October 06, 2021 at 07:26 PM (#6044068)
Manfred is a German name isn't it?
   4. bookbook Posted: October 06, 2021 at 09:02 PM (#6044097)
They should mandate the major league players be vaccinated as well. Call it coercion, much like the measles shot requirement to enter kindergarten. Or call it straightforward public health. 700,000 dead Americans is far too many, especially when most of the last 500,000 could have been prevented.
   5. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: October 06, 2021 at 09:53 PM (#6044142)
They should mandate the major league players be vaccinated as well. Call it coercion, much like the measles shot requirement to enter kindergarten. Or call it straightforward public health. 700,000 dead Americans is far too many, especially when most of the last 500,000 could have been prevented.

They allow medical and religious exemptions for all the childhood vaccinations too. There's no way 500,000 deaths have happened since vaccines were readily available. The ratio is the opposite to what you state.

The earliest the general public could be fully vaccinated was late May this year. I got my first shot as soon as it was available for 50+, which was late March, 2nd shot in May. General availability was soon after that. Per the CDC, there have been 114,000 deaths from June-Oct, 2021. That's the max deaths that could have been avoided by universal vaccination.
   6. Brian C Posted: October 06, 2021 at 10:03 PM (#6044157)
Per the CDC, there have been 114,000 deaths from June-Oct, 2021. That's the max deaths that could have been avoided by universal vaccination.

Well, no one said we wouldn't get our hair mussed.
   7. SoSH U at work Posted: October 06, 2021 at 10:06 PM (#6044162)
I didn't interpret bookbook's comment to mean the final 500,000 deaths could have been prevented by vaccination, just that many of those final 500,000 could have been prevented with a better overall approach to the coronavirus.
   8. Brian C Posted: October 06, 2021 at 11:04 PM (#6044239)
Well, South Korea has had something like 4 deaths per 100K in population. The US has had something like 215. So if we had contained the virus as well as they did, that means that we've had something like ... well, 690K preventable deaths, if my math is right. Give or take.

Obviously people will go "hem, haw, derp, that's not the same thing, rationalize rationalize blah blah blah." But it really sort of is a good comparison? We like to tell ourselves here in the US that we're the greatest country in the world, but this pandemic was a huge test of just how great we are, and we've failed horribly, and we're falling behind more every single day.

   9. Never Give an Inge (Dave) Posted: October 06, 2021 at 11:31 PM (#6044280)

Be nice if they paid them minimum wage first. I'd love to see half the minor leaguers quit mid season and let MLB suck on it.

NB: I am not anti-vax, and am vaccinated myself. I'm just anti-coercion.


I agree. The players should also walk out if they are required to wear batting helmets. Wait...
   10. we all water; we all 57i66135 Posted: October 06, 2021 at 11:45 PM (#6044304)
I agree. The players should also walk out if they are required to wear batting helmets. Wait...
rules are for idolaters and liberals.
   11. smileyy Posted: October 07, 2021 at 12:43 AM (#6044380)
Now snapper, don't try to be sliding up from 42nd place.
   12. Starring Bradley Scotchman as RMc Posted: October 07, 2021 at 06:40 AM (#6044387)
I am not anti-vax, and am vaccinated myself. I'm just anti-coercion.


That's it, isn't it? Do you want to live in a country where people are dying needlessly of an awful disease, or one where the government is requiring that you get a needle in your arm...and thus, by extension, could well require that you do other things the government wants, too? Isn't there a happy medium somewhere?

I don't have the answer. (Also, I got my third shot last week.)
   13. Mellow Mouse, Benevolent Space Tyrant Posted: October 07, 2021 at 10:14 AM (#6044431)
They allow medical and religious exemptions for all the childhood vaccinations too.


Depends on the state. Not all states allow exemptions.
   14. Mellow Mouse, Benevolent Space Tyrant Posted: October 07, 2021 at 10:16 AM (#6044432)
and thus, by extension, could well require that you do other things the government wants, too


The many, many, many things that government already requires us to do wave and say "Hi!". The slippery slope of "But the government might make us do stuff" passed long before any of us were born (and in pretty much every nation ever). You are just whining about the specifics of what the government is requiring us to do. And a vaccine? Not a big deal.
   15. bunyon Posted: October 07, 2021 at 10:38 AM (#6044436)
zsdfdv
   16. Tom Nawrocki Posted: October 07, 2021 at 10:48 AM (#6044441)
Also, note that this isn't the government requiring its citizens to get vaccinated; it's a private business requiring its employees to get vaccinated. Those employees are free to go find employment elsewhere.
   17. What did Billy Ripken have against ElRoy Face? Posted: October 07, 2021 at 10:52 AM (#6044443)
That's it, isn't it? Do you want to live in a country where people are dying needlessly of an awful disease, or one where the government is requiring that you get a needle in your arm...and thus, by extension, could well require that you do other things the government wants, too? Isn't there a happy medium somewhere?
I want to live in a country where we don’t have a bunch of idiots who refuse to get vaccinated against an awful disease, thus ensuring that the awful disease sticks around.

Unfortunately, we can’t have nice things like that. So barring that, I want to live in a country where the government uses its power for the public good by mandating vaccines, rather than in a country where the idiots win.

As far as the government requiring other things, I will consider my position on those things, if they happen, depending on what those things may be. We’re not talking about that right now.
   18. Barry`s_Lazy_Boy Posted: October 07, 2021 at 11:02 AM (#6044447)
You sheeple may "drive the speed limit" and "wear seatbelts", but #### the government. Jesus gave me those roads, and I'm going to use them. They can't coerce me into doing those things, #### that. How many times do they want you to wear a seat belt? Once? twice? TRY EVERY ###### TIME.

I'll drive as fast as I want, and I sure as hell ain't wearing a seat belt. Its the mark of the beast.

I'm a man, I know how to drive, and I don't drive in fear. You can drive in fear if you so choose.



   19. gef the talking mongoose, peppery hostile Posted: October 07, 2021 at 11:29 AM (#6044456)
You sheeple may "drive the speed limit" and "wear seatbelts",


For most of my tenure as night city editor & then weekend editor at the Little Rock newspaper, our nutjob self-styled libertarian (but I repeat myself) executive editor decreed that we were to excise all references to (lack of) seatbelt wear in traffic fatality releases from the state police.
   20. we all water; we all 57i66135 Posted: October 07, 2021 at 11:46 AM (#6044460)
For most of my tenure as night city editor & then weekend editor at the Little Rock newspaper, our nutjob self-styled libertarian (but I repeat myself) executive editor decreed that we were to excise all references to (lack of) seatbelt wear in traffic fatality releases from the state police.
that'll put ralph nader in his place.
   21. greenback used to say live and let live Posted: October 07, 2021 at 11:47 AM (#6044461)
I want to live in a country where we don’t have a bunch of idiots who refuse to get vaccinated against an awful disease, thus ensuring that the awful disease sticks around.

It's problematic to frame the argument this way because even if we did all the right things in the USA, we are still going to get variants from other countries with virtually zero vaccinations. I mean, I agree with the underlying point that adults in position of authority should do whatever they can to keep the toddlers from extending this threat, but you don't want to over-promise on results. I will add that one of the weird consequences of taking COVID seriously is that travel to and from #### hole countries probably should be restricted more so than it currently is.
   22. we all water; we all 57i66135 Posted: October 07, 2021 at 12:02 PM (#6044465)
It's problematic to frame the argument this way because even if we did all the right things in the USA, we are still going to get variants from other countries with virtually zero vaccinations. I mean, I agree with the underlying point that adults in position of authority should do whatever they can to keep the toddlers from extending this threat, but you don't want to over-promise on results. I will add that one of the weird consequences of taking COVID seriously is that travel to and from #### hole countries states probably should be restricted more so than it currently is.
ftfy


imagine if texas was being asked to take covid patients from mexico, the way that washington state is being asked to take covid patients from idaho.
   23. Mellow Mouse, Benevolent Space Tyrant Posted: October 07, 2021 at 12:39 PM (#6044473)
I will be traveling to Peru later this month. Planning started before the pandemic even took place, and Covid has made travel much worse. I am not sure what restricting travel more actually means, but I really doubt any plausible restriction would do much of anything to reduce the spread of the disease. We are an interconnected world, like it or not. Though New Zealand and a few other places have given it their best shot, I don't think that sort of thing would fly in most of the world.
   24. smileyy Posted: October 07, 2021 at 12:51 PM (#6044480)
imagine if texas was being asked to take covid patients from mexico, the way that washington state is being asked to take covid patients from idaho.


I'd say those unvaccinated MF'ers better stay out of Seattle hospitals but that horse has already left the barn, I'm pretty sure.
   25. Mayor Blomberg Posted: October 07, 2021 at 01:39 PM (#6044494)
More like Spokane and Pullman, I'd assume. They're afraid of the forms of life west of the Cascades, but eastern WA has its own crazies.
   26. Karl from NY Posted: October 07, 2021 at 02:39 PM (#6044509)
Any such mandate that applies to minor league players but not major is 0% about health and safety and 100% about coercion and leverage.
   27. bunyon Posted: October 07, 2021 at 02:44 PM (#6044513)
26: though I’m very much in favor of mandates, up to and including from the feds, you are absolutely correct.
   28. Mellow Mouse, Benevolent Space Tyrant Posted: October 07, 2021 at 02:50 PM (#6044514)
It is a billion times easier to put the mandate on the minor leagues. And since pretty much every player goes through the minor leagues, over time it absolutely will help health and safety. And that is before we consider there are way more minor leaguers than major leaguers, especially with the additional turnover.
   29. we all water; we all 57i66135 Posted: October 07, 2021 at 05:59 PM (#6044582)
given the amount of [ Ignored Comment ] in this thread, let's post this here and never come back:

But we are not here to get too bogged down in what Zaera-Polo did or did not do vis-a-vis Wikipedia, which is honestly not very interesting. We are interested in how he chose to defend himself. AZP dropped a seven-part, five-and-a-half-hour self-branded “Gonzo Ethnography Of Academic Authority,” which is as overstuffed and impenetrable as its name suggests. This was accompanied by a document entitled “The Fascisms of Difference in the Post-truth University,” which begins with a lament about being canceled by the woke mob alongside Woodrow Wilson and goes on to chalk the process of his firing up to “postmodernist, relativist dilettantism.”

   30. Starring Bradley Scotchman as RMc Posted: October 07, 2021 at 06:35 PM (#6044593)
Well, South Korea has had something like 4 deaths per 100K in population. The US has had something like 215. So if we had contained the virus as well as they did

South Korea is a country one-sixth the size of the US, on a tiny peninsula (actually, half of it) about 3% the size of the US. There was never any chance of "containing" the virus the way Korea did/does, short of keeping people six feet apart at gunpoint. (Still, 4 and 215 is quite a difference, yes?)

I want to live in a country where we don’t have a bunch of idiots who refuse to get vaccinated against an awful disease, thus ensuring that the awful disease sticks around.

Sounds good. But how?

Unfortunately, we can’t have nice things like that. So barring that, I want to live in a country where the government uses its power for the public good by mandating vaccines, rather than in a country where the idiots win.

In the immortal words of Lucy van Pelt, "There has never been more damage done than by people who 'thought they were doing the right thing'."

As far as the government requiring other things, I will consider my position on those things, if they happen, depending on what those things may be. We’re not talking about that right now.

You're not, but other people are, people who are rubbing their hands together and thinking, "My time to shine...!"
   31. John Northey Posted: October 07, 2021 at 06:41 PM (#6044597)
A shame so many in the US have gone coo-coo about this vaccine vs all the other ones everyone needs to take (many are needed before you can go to school for example with over 95% of people taking it and only a few nuts refusing due to interpretations of a book written millennia ago long before vaccines existed). The more who make it mandatory for work the better as that will help cut down the virus before we get another more dangerous variant which is too tough for the vaccines. As a Canadian I get very frustrated with how the idiot virus has infected so many up here from the USA.
   32. Mayor Blomberg Posted: October 07, 2021 at 09:28 PM (#6044667)
Well, John, the other vaxes inject transistors not chips.
   33. What did Billy Ripken have against ElRoy Face? Posted: October 07, 2021 at 09:37 PM (#6044671)
In the immortal words of Lucy van Pelt, "There has never been more damage done than by people who 'thought they were doing the right thing'."
You're not, but other people are, people who are rubbing their hands together and thinking, "My time to shine...!"
Yeah, if your baseline is anti-government paranoia, I suppose that's how you would "analyze" the issue. "So, given that government is evil and seeks tyranny over the people, what we have here is an example of the evil government using the vaccine as a Trojan horse to expand its ability to tyrannize."
   34. Tom Goes to the Ballpark Posted: October 07, 2021 at 10:13 PM (#6044681)
The vaccination rate for MLB players is probably 90+% already. A mandate for next season seems pretty likely. MLB announcing a mandate during the playoffs seems pretty unlikely.
   35. Brian C Posted: October 07, 2021 at 11:13 PM (#6044697)
South Korea is a country one-sixth the size of the US, on a tiny peninsula (actually, half of it) about 3% the size of the US. There was never any chance of "containing" the virus the way Korea did/does, short of keeping people six feet apart at gunpoint.

OK but ... why not? What does the size of the country have to do with it, exactly? Or being on a peninsula? Hawaii is way smaller and even more isolated, and their COVID death rate is about 59 per 100K residents. Or Alaska, which obviously is way bigger but has only a tiny fraction of the population, is about 80 and still rapidly climbing.

For all their peninsularity, South Korea is very densely populated, experiences a heavy volume of international travel to and from, and had a very early outbreak. And they're a democratic, capitalistic society, so no CCP-style suppression - they didn't even have the lockdowns that a lot of other places did. It seems like the biggest advantages they had weren't size or geography, but rather that they (unlike us) actually paid attention to the epidemiology of the original SARS outbreak, and hence focused more on contact tracing, quarantines, and masking - instead of worrying about the kind of outdated science that was behind guidelines like "keep people six feet apart" which even now 1.5 years later still dominates the discussion here despite being demonstrated long ago that it's a half-measure at best.

I mean, f**k, a lot of people here are still cleaning their groceries.
   36. Never Give an Inge (Dave) Posted: October 08, 2021 at 01:31 AM (#6044708)
Truly shutting down international travel likely would have made a difference. Vietnam and other Asian countries basically did that. South Korea did not fully shut it down, but they have a real 14-day quarantine requirement upon entry with limited exemptions for those who had a negative test or proof of vaccination.

But I am cautious about strong claims about our ability to replicate S. Korea’s success here (in some alternate universe), since most Western nations have had just as much trouble as we have. I do, however, look at Oregon and Washington and think there’s little reason that, with good leadership, the US could not have achieved that result across most of the country (outside the Northeast, which got slammed early on. Even that could have been handled much better, though).
   37. Ben Broussard Ramjet Posted: October 08, 2021 at 03:19 AM (#6044709)
South Korea is a country one-sixth the size of the US, on a tiny peninsula (actually, half of it) about 3% the size of the US. There was never any chance of "containing" the virus the way Korea did/does, short of keeping people six feet apart at gunpoint. (Still, 4 and 215 is quite a difference, yes?)


The idea that South Korea is MUCH more densely populated than the US, and as a result is much more dependent on public transport, communal spaces, etc. seems to be an argument that South Korea should have had a much harder time containing the virus, not easier.

I think the thing that probably drove relative success outside of the US and Western Europe in suppressing Covid was the willingness to go big early, as it were, rather than wait to the last minute before applying controls. Waiting to the last minute tends just to make the problem worse and the controls by necessity more draconian when they do have to come in. Experience with SARS, etc. probably helped here.

It's remarkable to me that we just observed 20 years since 9/11, an event that I remember completely redirecting the nature of our politics and diplomacy for at least half a decade. And at the same time, there's a sense being promulgated that hundreds of thousands of avoidable deaths from Covid are just, well, a bit of a downer, but not something we should actually be overly concerned about.

You're not, but other people are, people who are rubbing their hands together and thinking, "My time to shine...!"


This kind of thing gets a lot less frustrating when you remember that every policy position, no matter how virtuous, makes someone you don't like happy. And that any policy position has an extreme variant that has to be guarded against. The point of the slippery slope argument is not that you shouldn't get on the slope, it's that you shouldn't slip unwittingly down it, if I can mangle the metaphor.
   38. Starring Bradley Scotchman as RMc Posted: October 08, 2021 at 07:49 AM (#6044712)
(E)very policy position, no matter how virtuous, makes someone you don't like happy. And that any policy position has an extreme variant that has to be guarded against.

Yeah, but some are obviously worse than others. The world is filled with people who would love to see the rest of us in chains, because reasons.
   39. bunyon Posted: October 08, 2021 at 09:31 AM (#6044726)
I will be traveling to Peru later this month.

Mouse, I was under the impression Peru's borders were still closed. Am I wrong or do you have some sort of "in" (I'm guessing the former).


The world is filled with people who would love to see the rest of us in chains, because reasons.

And seeing a nation with a third or more of its citizens unwilling to be vaccinated against a terrible contagious disease makes a lot of us think they might be on to something.
   40. Greg Pope Posted: October 08, 2021 at 09:56 AM (#6044733)
Also, note that this isn't the government requiring its citizens to get vaccinated; it's a private business requiring its employees to get vaccinated. Those employees are free to go find employment elsewhere.

While true in this case, an important thing to note is that the government is actually requiring a lot of people to get vaccinated. The OSHA declaration applies to any company over 100 employees.
   41. Greg Pope Posted: October 08, 2021 at 10:03 AM (#6044736)
Do you want to live in a country where people are dying needlessly of an awful disease, or one where the government is requiring that you get a needle in your arm...and thus, by extension, could well require that you do other things the government wants, too? Isn't there a happy medium somewhere?

I'm glad to hear you say this. That there might be a happy medium. But I'd argue that we're kind of there already. The government* has not actually required anyone to get a shot. They've just said that you need one in order to do certain activities. Activities that are more likely to spread the disease. If you don't want the shot, you can mostly stay home. You can still go buy groceries. You're welcome to find a job that lets you work from home or doesn't require the vaccination. You just can't go to a sporting event or, in some places, a bar/restaurant. There aren't armies showing up at your door, holding you down, and injecting you.

I get the slippery slope argument, but you can argue against anything by taking it too an extreme. As was said above, if this leads to more government overreach, then we can argue against that. But arguing against something that is reasonable and can save hundreds of thousands of lives, just because it could possibly lead to something unreasonable... well, I don't agree with that. This is a (hopefully) once in a century pandemic.

*Let's just use "the government" as a way to express the current mandates, whether by the actual government or companies that may or may or not be under governmental pressure.
   42. Ben Broussard Ramjet Posted: October 08, 2021 at 10:13 AM (#6044738)
Yeah, but some are obviously worse than others. The world is filled with people who would love to see the rest of us in chains, because reasons.


Sure. But the world is also full of people who would like to see the rest of us dead, for other reasons. Steps to prevent the continuation of a pandemic are frustrating the latter while doing very little to please the former, given that other vaccines are already mandatory or near-as-damn-it.
   43. Tom Nawrocki Posted: October 08, 2021 at 10:30 AM (#6044741)
While true in this case, an important thing to note is that the government is actually requiring a lot of people to get vaccinated. The OSHA declaration applies to any company over 100 employees.


The OSHA declaration also offers an out to people who don't want to get vaccinated, giving them the option of weekly testing instead. Technically speaking, it doesn't require anyone to get vaccinated.
   44. bunyon Posted: October 08, 2021 at 10:38 AM (#6044742)
For those who think the government is over-reaching? Do you think we should have unified government action in the event of invasion?

Because that's about the only thing I think requires more government intervention than a pandemic. Things like a pandemic are what government is for. Unified action against a common threat. If the government can't act then, it shouldn't be acting at all.
   45. What did Billy Ripken have against ElRoy Face? Posted: October 08, 2021 at 10:39 AM (#6044743)
The world is filled with people who would love to see the rest of us in chains, because reasons.
Yeah, no paranoia there. I'm beginning to think you just may be "reasoning" backwards from a pre-existing conclusion.
   46. greenback used to say live and let live Posted: October 08, 2021 at 10:45 AM (#6044745)
Truly shutting down international travel likely would have made a difference.

New Zealand is another example here. I've never understood what "but they're on an island!" was supposed to convey. It's not like the virus was wafting in the air over the Rio Grande, and then people in San Antonio carried the virus to New York. "They're small!" is another argument I never understood. We should have had resources -- physical, economic, intellectual, military -- that they couldn't dream about.

It seems like the biggest advantages they [South Korea] had weren't size or geography, but rather that they (unlike us) actually paid attention to the epidemiology of the original SARS outbreak, and hence focused more on contact tracing, quarantines, and masking - instead of worrying about the kind of outdated science that was behind guidelines like "keep people six feet apart" which even now 1.5 years later still dominates the discussion here despite being demonstrated long ago that it's a half-measure at best.

Yeah, we had a massive failure from our public health leaders. Part of our problem is that we don't really have a centralized public health system, so our method of arriving at a consensus for a policy response is driven by who can yell the loudest on Twitter and CNN. That seems unlikely to change so long as a huge chunk of the population is comparing vaccination mandates to prison sentences or slavery.
   47. Mellow Mouse, Benevolent Space Tyrant Posted: October 08, 2021 at 10:47 AM (#6044746)
Mouse, I was under the impression Peru's borders were still closed. Am I wrong or do you have some sort of "in" (I'm guessing the former).


I believe it is open, everything I have seen suggests so anyway. I need to be tested for COVID 72 hours before landing in the country (and be negative, obviously). They also have a variety of rules, like double masking in many places, which OK it is your country, I will follow your rules.

They really want the tourist dollars, and they need them.

I and my whole party (seven of us) are all vaccinated (of course).
   48. bunyon Posted: October 08, 2021 at 10:57 AM (#6044749)
Thanks. That's what I get for listening to my superiors.
   49. Greg Pope Posted: October 08, 2021 at 11:25 AM (#6044756)
The OSHA declaration also offers an out to people who don't want to get vaccinated, giving them the option of weekly testing instead. Technically speaking, it doesn't require anyone to get vaccinated.

Thanks. I either never knew that or forgot.

I really believe that this is the middle ground.
   50. bookbook Posted: October 08, 2021 at 01:05 PM (#6044793)
South Korea is a country one-sixth the size of the US, on a tiny peninsula (actually, half of it) about 3% the size of the US. There was never any chance of "containing" the virus the way Korea did/does, short of keeping people six feet apart at gunpoint. (Still, 4 and 215 is quite a difference, yes?)

True points. South Korea is also a model, sophisticated, thriving democracy. It is close to China where Covid started, and there has been a fair amount of travel back and forth for business (and pleasure presumably).

I don't think the U.S. could have matched South Korea's performance, but our extra time to prepare, greater distance, and massive resources mean we should have been able to get much closer.

If Hillary had been president, 100,000 Americans would have died from Covid, and Republicans would have made 20 years of campaigns out of how bad Democrats are at protecting our lives and taking pandemic disease seriously. (they still blame Obama for 2 Americans who caught Ebola)
   51. we all water; we all 57i66135 Posted: October 08, 2021 at 01:10 PM (#6044795)
South Korea is also a model, sophisticated, thriving democracy
...
I don't think the U.S. could have matched South Korea's performance
possibly not coincidentally, half of south korea's (living) former presidents are currently in jail.
   52. Ben Broussard Ramjet Posted: October 08, 2021 at 01:44 PM (#6044805)
If Hillary had been president, 100,000 Americans would have died from Covid,


I think this is wildly unrealistic. A large minority of the US population simply does not run on science any more, and there's a very significant number of politicians more than happy to pander to them. Here in Germany we got off 'lightly' by European standards, with a quantum chemist as the leader of the country as the pandemic hit, to the extent that we shipped in Covid patients from other nations to treat - and our death rate of 1,124/million is still more than halfway to the US number of 2,190.
   53. Barry`s_Lazy_Boy Posted: October 08, 2021 at 01:50 PM (#6044806)
If Hillary had been president, we'd have even lower vaccination rates, if that is possible.
   54. ERROR---Jolly Old St. Nick Posted: October 08, 2021 at 01:57 PM (#6044809)
Any such mandate that applies to minor league players but not major is 0% about health and safety and 100% about coercion and leverage.

Or maybe, just maybe, it's because minor leaguers don't have a veto power over a mandate, thank God.
   55. . Posted: October 08, 2021 at 03:20 PM (#6044845)
Just here to report that this thread reads like the work and the rantings and the resentments of cultists. No one here thinks it does, that much is certain. And understandable. And there is certainly the occasional exception. But it does.
   56. base ball chick Posted: October 08, 2021 at 03:32 PM (#6044848)
hillary is a very devisive person - i mean there are plenty of people who voted AGAINST her, not "for" trump. she is a lot more hate producing than joe biden who inherited a complete mess. so if anything it would NOT have been better

there is just a LOT of people who won't get vaccinated who bleeve they are superhuman and can't get sick, or they are Men so no virus can get them or bleeve any old conspiracy theory - i think my favorite is the one about the microchips - and folks who bleeve that ain't never SEEN a microchip or the needle vets use.
   57. Jay Z Posted: October 08, 2021 at 10:41 PM (#6044939)
It's problematic to frame the argument this way because even if we did all the right things in the USA, we are still going to get variants from other countries with virtually zero vaccinations. I mean, I agree with the underlying point that adults in position of authority should do whatever they can to keep the toddlers from extending this threat, but you don't want to over-promise on results. I will add that one of the weird consequences of taking COVID seriously is that travel to and from #### hole countries probably should be restricted more so than it currently is.


Variants haven't particularly driven deaths, because variants to date haven't evaded the vaccine.
   58. Jack Sommers Posted: October 09, 2021 at 01:37 AM (#6044950)
Chew on this fact for minute.

Since Pandemic started USA has accounted for 15% of all reported Covid Deaths (732K / 4.855M)

Over last two weeks USA has accounted for 23% of all reported Covid Deaths. (23.3K/ 101.7 K)

Source

Anyway, nobody is being strapped to a table and getting a needle stuck in their arms. People HAVE a choice. They just don't LIKE their choice.
   59. Brian C Posted: October 09, 2021 at 02:17 AM (#6044953)
If Hillary had won in 2016, I think it's fairly likely that she loses re-election in 2020, just like Trump did. Maybe she even loses to Trump in a rematch. And all the conservative anti-vaxxers would have wanted to get vaxxed to help end the pandemic and make Trump look good.

This is basically what's going on in the UK, where Murdoch's conservative propaganda machines are significantly more pro-vax in the service of a conservative government.
   60. Starring Bradley Scotchman as RMc Posted: October 09, 2021 at 03:12 AM (#6044956)
Just here to report that this thread reads like the work and the rantings and the resentments of cultists. No one here thinks it does, that much is certain. And understandable. And there is certainly the occasional exception. But it does.

They don't think it be like it is, but it do.
   61. Lassus Posted: October 09, 2021 at 06:57 AM (#6044960)
Just here to report that this thread reads like the work and the rantings and the resentments of cultists. No one here thinks it does, that much is certain. And understandable. And there is certainly the occasional exception. But it does.

Thank god you guys are here to turn me away from the hubris of always being certain beyond a shadow of a doubt that I'm right.
   62. Mayor Blomberg Posted: October 09, 2021 at 11:40 AM (#6044976)
   63. we all water; we all 57i66135 Posted: October 09, 2021 at 02:27 PM (#6045002)
People need to fade into Bolivian for the treatment of their choice.
to be fair to bolivia, you could substitute jacksonville for them, and i would be no more incredulous.
   64. rr: cosmopolitan elite Posted: October 09, 2021 at 03:41 PM (#6045019)
The idea that South Korea is MUCH more densely populated than the US, and as a result is much more dependent on public transport, communal spaces, etc. seems to be an argument that South Korea should have had a much harder time containing the virus, not easier.

I think the thing that probably drove relative success outside of the US and Western Europe in suppressing Covid was the willingness to go big early, as it were, rather than wait to the last minute before applying controls. Waiting to the last minute tends just to make the problem worse and the controls by necessity more draconian when they do have to come in. Experience with SARS, etc. probably helped here.


I went through a stage earlier in my career in which I worked with South Koreans quite a bit, so I learned a little about the culture. I think that the collectivist aspect of the culture, as well as its relative homogeneity, have been key there. America's sociohistorical emphasis on individualism and differences, and individual rights, while in many ways a good thing, makes it harder for us to take collective action, especially against something like COVID or climate change, for which a little self-education and humility are required, and in which the effects are often hard to see and in which we do not have a visible human enemy. We can get unified if somebody bombs a military base or takes out skyscrapers and kills a bunch of our fellow citizens and/or military personnel; in other scenarios, we can't. My exp with the Koreans I worked with was that even in small things they thought "group." They also have more built-in respect for elders and experts, like, say, Fauci, than we do.

I said in the NBA Thread that if the COVID death rate were 46.3% and your body were covered with exploding red pustules before you died, we would not have many anti-vaxxers. But the reality of it--risk mitigation, needing to keep ICU beds empty, relatively low death rate, mutation prevention, asymptomatic spread--is nuanced enough that it requires a little self-education to grasp it and a lot of collective action to to do something about it, and we as a country, are not real hot at either of those. A lot of people on the Left, my side of the political aisle, are all over Facebook and social media about it, and there is truth in that, but these aspects of America pre-date Zuckerberg and Co.
   65. rr: cosmopolitan elite Posted: October 09, 2021 at 03:41 PM (#6045020)
The idea that South Korea is MUCH more densely populated than the US, and as a result is much more dependent on public transport, communal spaces, etc. seems to be an argument that South Korea should have had a much harder time containing the virus, not easier.

I think the thing that probably drove relative success outside of the US and Western Europe in suppressing Covid was the willingness to go big early, as it were, rather than wait to the last minute before applying controls. Waiting to the last minute tends just to make the problem worse and the controls by necessity more draconian when they do have to come in. Experience with SARS, etc. probably helped here.


I went through a stage earlier in my career in which I worked with South Koreans quite a bit, so I learned a little about the culture. I think that the collectivist aspect of the culture, as well as its relative homogeneity, have been key there. America's sociohistorical emphasis on individualism and differences, and individual rights, while in many ways a good thing, makes it harder for us to take collective action, especially against something like COVID or climate change, for which a little self-education and humility are required, and in which the effects are often hard to see and in which we do not have a visible human enemy. We can get unified if somebody bombs a military base or takes out skyscrapers and kills a bunch of our fellow citizens and/or military personnel; in other scenarios, we can't. My exp with the Koreans I worked with was that even in small things they thought "group." They also have more built-in respect for elders and experts, like, say, Fauci, than we do.

I said in the NBA Thread that if the COVID death rate were 46.3% and your body were covered with exploding red pustules before you died, we would not have many anti-vaxxers. But the reality of it--risk mitigation, needing to keep ICU beds empty, relatively low death rate, mutation prevention, asymptomatic spread--is nuanced enough that it requires a little self-education to grasp it and a lot of collective action to to do something about it, and we as a country, are not real hot at either of those. A lot of people on the Left, my side of the political aisle, are all over Facebook and social media about it, and there is truth in that, but these aspects of America pre-date Zuckerberg and Co.
   66. rr: cosmopolitan elite Posted: October 09, 2021 at 03:42 PM (#6045021)
sorry for the double post
submission was wonky
   67. Mayor Blomberg Posted: October 09, 2021 at 05:53 PM (#6045043)
We can get unified if somebody bombs a military base or takes out skyscrapers and kills a bunch of our fellow citizens and/or military personnel;

For couple of paranoid months, anyway. It also helped that South Korea didn't neglect its store of emergency supplies, as we did due to our sociopathic emphasis on individualism.
   68. . Posted: October 09, 2021 at 06:51 PM (#6045054)
A lot of people on the Left, my side of the political aisle, are all over Facebook and social media about it, and there is truth in that, but these aspects of America pre-date Zuckerberg and Co.


And a lot of people on that side of the aisle, particularly the "progressive" wing, see in COVID the perfect opportunity to try to stick it to the individualists once and for all. Salivating over the opportunity has, naturally, made them say and think and propose and propound a lot of things that don't stand up to any real factual scrutiny.(*) As time passes and the pandemic becomes even more the province of serious scholars and thinkers, this phenomenon will become even more clear.

(*) I mean, it's not as though a major sophisticated country just took the Moderna vaccine, which has gone into millions of American arms, including mine, out of circulation or anything. Or that four similar countries took it out of circulation for people under 30.
   69. . Posted: October 09, 2021 at 06:53 PM (#6045055)
Ronald apparently hasn't heard of the American collectivist effort that we put together to save Europe from Hitler. "Sociopathic" individualism, indeed.
   70. Hombre Brotani Posted: October 09, 2021 at 07:03 PM (#6045061)
The world is filled with people who would love to see the rest of us in chains, because reasons.
"All you have to do is tell them they are being attacked and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger." There's an actual virus that's killed 750,000 actual Americans, but sure, let's be scared of the nameless "people" who want to "see the rest of us in chains, because reasons." The vague, nameless, faceless, ever-present attacking threat is a gimmick that works every time. The actual threat that's killed three-quarters of a million Americans and nearly five million worldwide? Eh.
   71. we all water; we all 57i66135 Posted: October 09, 2021 at 07:05 PM (#6045062)
They also have more built-in respect for elders and experts, like, say, Fauci, than we do.
in fairness to most americans, the first time they became aware of anthony fauci's existence was when he flat out lied about the efficacy of wearing masks in public.
   72. Jack Sommers Posted: October 09, 2021 at 08:12 PM (#6045078)
in fairness to most americans, the first time they became aware of anthony fauci's existence was when he flat out lied about the efficacy of wearing masks in public.


that was the moment I knew for certain we were screwed.

After 25 years living and traveling on and off in Taiwan, Hong Kong, and China, and then seeing how we responded in January, February and March, it was just mind boggling.

It was a road map of how to do everything WRONG
   73. rr: cosmopolitan elite Posted: October 10, 2021 at 12:07 AM (#6045114)
>>>>>(*) I mean, it's not as though a major sophisticated country just took the Moderna vaccine, which has gone into millions of American arms, including mine, out of circulation or anything. Or that four similar countries took it out of circulation for people under 30.<<<<<<

This statement is in large part technically true, but if you are going to use terms like "factual scrutiny" then you should consider presenting, like, all the relevant facts, one being that Denmark reversed on this two days ago.

   74. The Duke Posted: October 10, 2021 at 01:14 AM (#6045116)
Asia had had much more recent history with viral plagues. They had a much more comprehensive response earlier which gave them the upper hand for a while but as we have seen they are stuck in a disaster of their own making. They’ve endured endless lockdowns while we build our immunities via vaccines/infection. We’ll see how it works out for them in the long term. The disease was designed to attack people in the West. You don’t have huge issues with obesity, hypertension, diabetes in the East. But the delta variant has started to make that distinction blurry. It goes after everyone.

You could never, ever implement those kind of restrictions here. In much the same way people are befuddled by our gun ownership, the world is also befuddled by our desire to avoid lockdown mandates. It’s who we are.
   75. Lassus Posted: October 10, 2021 at 10:40 AM (#6045126)
>>>>>(*) I mean, it's not as though a major sophisticated country just took the Moderna vaccine, which has gone into millions of American arms, including mine, out of circulation or anything. Or that four similar countries took it out of circulation for people under 30.<<<<<<

This statement is in large part technically true, but if you are going to use terms like "factual scrutiny" then you should consider presenting, like, all the relevant facts, one being that Denmark reversed on this two days ago.

You are too kind. What he wrote isn't the truth.


In other news, continuing Oneida County's weekly positive rate, it's a pretty annoying trend of five steps forward, four steps back:

9/7 - 4.7%
9/14 - 4.2%
9/21 - 4.6%
9/28 - 4.0%
10/5 - 4.5%

It is kind of the new Game of Thrones, waiting for the result every week.


   76. AuntBea odeurs de parfum de distance sociale Posted: October 11, 2021 at 09:17 AM (#6045387)
The economist's estimate of global excess death is 16 million. (10-19 million is basically their confidence interval.) That's more than 3x as many deaths as have been recorded.

   77. we all water; we all 57i66135 Posted: October 11, 2021 at 12:38 PM (#6045479)
The economist's estimate of global excess death is 16 million. (10-19 million is basically their confidence interval.) That's more than 3x as many deaths as have been recorded.
more evidence that economics falls between cosmology and cosmetology on the scale of "fields of study that deserve to be respected by normal people".
   78. smileyy Posted: October 11, 2021 at 09:36 PM (#6045611)
Which end of that spectrum is which?
   79. we all water; we all 57i66135 Posted: October 12, 2021 at 01:16 AM (#6045714)
Which end of that spectrum is which?
yes.
   80. smileyy Posted: October 12, 2021 at 01:53 AM (#6045718)
Legit

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