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Friday, September 19, 2008

MLB: Police pull over Nyjer Morgan for heavily tinted windows

“When you try to peel the film off the glass, the top layer will usually pull right off leaving the second layer behind. This second layer will not peel off, it will just flake and tear like a price tag!”

Morgan offered to bring three Dodgers players—Russell Martin, Joe Beimel and Delwyn Young—back to the Westin hotel after all had been at a nearby restaurant after the Pirates’ 6-2 loss to Los Angeles on Tuesday. Just after leaving the parking lot, Morgan was pulled over by a city policeman on West General Robinson Street, which runs along the third-base side of the stadium.

According to Morgan, the officer informed him that the tint on his vehicle windows was too dark and violated the state law.

“I was texting in the back seat and before you know it, we’re sitting on the curb and it’s like, what’s going on right now?” Martin said. “It was kind of cold and we’re sitting there and I was just trying to get to the hotel to get some rest.

“I guess we fit the description pretty good—we’re in Pittsburgh, young, African-American driver, nice car. It was embarrassing.”

Thanks to E-ferto

Repoz Posted: September 19, 2008 at 12:22 PM | 113 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
  Tags: pirates

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   1. X-Roid User Posted: September 19, 2008 at 12:50 PM (#2947233)
Cops suck.
   2. More Dewey is Always Good Posted: September 19, 2008 at 01:00 PM (#2947238)
Oh my god - a car got pulled over because it violated the law. No ticket was issued. This is devastating news.
   3. My name is Votto, and I love to get Moppo Posted: September 19, 2008 at 01:00 PM (#2947240)
Did Morgan make an illegal U-turn as he drove off?
   4. bfan Posted: September 19, 2008 at 01:12 PM (#2947245)
"Oh my god - a car got pulled over because it violated the law. No ticket was issued. This is devastating news."

I expect an apology will be demanded from the Pittsburgh PD any moment now.
   5. The Anthony Kennedy of BBTF (Scott) Posted: September 19, 2008 at 01:13 PM (#2947248)
DWB, baby. The Pittsburg PD is pretty abominable on stuff like this.

from the article:

"The Pennsylvania Motor Vehicle Code seems a little loose in its explanation on what would be an appropriate level of tint for vehicle windows and doesn't cite a specific percentage, but precedent shows that a tint higher than 70 percent has often resulted in state citations.

Asked on Wednesday how dark his windows are, Morgan was not sure on the percentage.

When the officer asked Morgan to step out of the car, the Pirates' outfielder admitted he got agitated and lost his temper. Morgan said that all the players were searched. Morgan's SUV also was searched.

According to Morgan, the officer that first pulled him over called for backup -- about three other police cruisers -- during the search process. "

People seriously can't see a problem with at least the illegal search?
   6. 1k5v3L Posted: September 19, 2008 at 01:17 PM (#2947251)
This would've never happened to a black STEELERS player like Ben Roethlisberger.
   7. Misirlou cut his hair and moved to Rome Posted: September 19, 2008 at 01:18 PM (#2947252)
DWB, baby. The Pittsburg PD is pretty abominable on stuff like this.


On what? Enforcing the law?

According to Morgan, the officer informed him that the tint on his vehicle windows was too dark and violated the state law.

I guess we fit the description pretty good—we’re in Pittsburgh, young, African-American driver, nice car. It was embarrassing.”


How did the cop know you were an african american if the windows were tinted too darkly?
   8. More Dewey is Always Good Posted: September 19, 2008 at 01:18 PM (#2947253)
People seriously can't see a problem with at least the illegal search?

Who said the search was illegal?
   9. 1k5v3L Posted: September 19, 2008 at 01:22 PM (#2947259)
The PD should've arrested and beaten the crap out of Jason Michaels for his "effort" yesterday.
The guy is about the most useless sack of intestines in the majors.
   10. andrewreinsch Posted: September 19, 2008 at 01:25 PM (#2947261)
How did the cop know you were an african american if the windows were tinted too darkly?

Just after leaving the parking lot, Morgan was pulled over by a city policeman on West General Robinson Street, which runs along the third-base side of the stadium.
   11. Hello Rusty Kuntz, Goodbye Rusty Cars Posted: September 19, 2008 at 01:30 PM (#2947266)
Nyjer, please.
   12. Meatwad Posted: September 19, 2008 at 01:32 PM (#2947268)
its always fun getting pulled over by police when they want to #### with you. and its happened to me a few times, sadly they pulled me over when they had nothing on me. for instance one morning i was going down to my af base, the night before had been spent at a girls house doing what i do best. i went home to change getting out of the car a cop passed me a few minutes later i was out the door and stopped at a light half a block from my house, cop car comes from 2 blocks down around the corner lights on right away, his excuse was one of my 2 license plates lights were out. of course i didnt get a ticket or anytthing and as soon as he walked up to my car he was surprised to discover that i wasnt some kid trying to steal #### i was in military uniform, and the kicker was when he saw my license he asked how long i had lived there claming he had never seen my car in that neighborhood before, when i told him 22 years he gave it back and quietly walked back to his car and left.

but yeah cops do indeed like to #### with people i can attest to that
   13. Padraic Posted: September 19, 2008 at 01:34 PM (#2947270)
Good thing he wasn't in Jersey.
   14. villageidiom Posted: September 19, 2008 at 01:41 PM (#2947274)
Cops suck.
They're enforcing the law. I think you mean that the laws suck. Or, to put it another way... Is that even legal?

The Pennsylvania Motor Vehicle Code seems a little loose in its explanation on what would be an appropriate level of tint for vehicle windows and doesn't cite a specific percentage, but precedent shows that a tint higher than 70 percent has often resulted in state citations.
That's 30 percent tint. It has to allow at least 70% of light through.

According to the PA AG (at his website),
Pennsylvania's Motor Vehicle statute states, "No person shall drive any motor vehicle with any sun screening device or other material which does not permit a person to see or view the inside of the vehicle through the windshield, side wing or side window of the vehicle".
At night it'd be harder to see through tinted glass, but that excerpt doesn't say the standard of being able to see inside is different in day vs. night. So if the cop can't see in, he has a legitimate* reason to pull someone over.

But that won't stop the guy in the back seat who was oblivious to the whole situation from hinting it was some kind of racial profiling. Of course, that brings the obvious question: did he really think that's what happened? Apparently not. Then why mention it?

* Legitimate in terms of evaluating whether the law has been violated or not. Whether this is a good law, or a legitimate use of the cop's time, is another issue.

When the officer asked Morgan to step out of the car, the Pirates' outfielder admitted he got agitated and lost his temper. Morgan said that all the players were searched. Morgan's SUV also was searched.
I don't know if the officer provoked any of the agitation, but has anyone ever heard of a case where someone lost their temper with a police officer and nothing came of it?
   15. Lassus Posted: September 19, 2008 at 01:47 PM (#2947277)
I always wonder. Speaking generally and not about this incident in particular. Are there people who think that being pulled over for doing nothing wrong other than being black is not something that ever happens? Or is it that in every reported case it's not convincing and it only barely ever happens, so infrequently as to be indicative of nothing in particular?

I do not think cops suck. I know a (very) few. I think like any group with power, they have troubles treating people well in circumstances that do not involve the specific mandate of their power, I guess.
   16. Hack Wilson Posted: September 19, 2008 at 01:48 PM (#2947279)
I saw a car yesterday that either had the most heavily tinted I have ever seen (actually not seen) or were painted black. How does a driver see through them? Night vision goggles?
   17. Barry`s_Lazy_Boy Posted: September 19, 2008 at 01:54 PM (#2947285)
Are there people who think that being pulled over for doing nothing wrong other than being black is not something that ever happens?

I think DWB happens but I also think it seems that people attribute DWB to every single time a B gets pulled over.
   18. zack Posted: September 19, 2008 at 01:58 PM (#2947292)
In DC, the most heavily tinted windows are the cops.
   19. Frisco Cali Posted: September 19, 2008 at 02:00 PM (#2947293)
the night before had been spent at a girls house doing what i do best

What did she do while you watched TV?
   20. Zonk demands an audit of your post Posted: September 19, 2008 at 02:02 PM (#2947295)
Actually, you'd be surprised how useful tinted windows are... My first car - bought used, of course - had heavily tinted windows.... driving in the morning and afternoon, they were extraordinarily helpful cutting down glare from the side and back. The tint doesn't quite work both ways.

No doubt, that's not why most folks tint their windows - but I definitely noticed the difference when my next vehicle had no tint.

For the record, I did get pulled over the tinted windows in the first care -- and got a ticket -- but the cop skipped the court date and the ticket got dismissed.
   21. RB in NYC (Now Semi-Retired from BBTF) Posted: September 19, 2008 at 02:02 PM (#2947296)
What did she do while you watched TV?
No, no, she watched TV, while he posted here about the Cubs
   22. 185/456(GGC) Posted: September 19, 2008 at 02:07 PM (#2947299)
Why do threads like this get more posts than threads germane to baseball? Am I evil for even bringing that up? It seems like some Primates are more interested in displaying their anti-authority cred than talking about baseball.
   23. Zonk demands an audit of your post Posted: September 19, 2008 at 02:09 PM (#2947301)
Why do threads like this get more posts than threads germane to baseball? Am I evil for even bringing that up? It seems like some Primates are more interested in displaying their anti-authority cred than talking about baseball.


I blame the BTF libertarian clique and their anything goes philosophy. If we had a well-regulated BTF, things like this wouldn't happen.
   24. Edmundo got dem ol' Kozma blues again mama Posted: September 19, 2008 at 02:10 PM (#2947304)
t seems like some Primates are more interested in displaying their anti-authority cred than talking about baseball.
I'll do both -- umps suck!
Your point is taken though. I think these kinds of things strike right to the core, as opposed, say, to a slumpy Pat Burrell taking pitches right down the middle, which is annoying but not all that meaningful to society.
   25. RB in NYC (Now Semi-Retired from BBTF) Posted: September 19, 2008 at 02:13 PM (#2947309)
Why do threads like this get more posts than threads germane to baseball? Am I evil for even bringing that up? It seems like some Primates are more interested in displaying their anti-authority cred than talking about baseball.
I think it's not that hard to figure out, honestly. Threads like this appeal (if that's the word) to everyone. It doesn't matter if you root for the Mariners or Reds or Yankees, you can--and probably do--have an opinion on this.

Whereas a thread about Bedard is having his labrum done, that appeals to maybe Mariner fans, Orioles and a few generalists. Espcially this time of year, when it's interesting but 100% irrelevant for a fan of any team that's in a pennant race. Met fans, for example, would be a lot more interested in hearing about Maine's return that Bedard's operation.
   26. Meatwad Posted: September 19, 2008 at 02:15 PM (#2947314)
the real baseball threads are boring today theres a few on the races, then one on budzilla talking about attendence, verducci pretending that yankee stadium talks and griffen detailing every player that he didnt get along with, much more entertaining to post here
   27. RJ in TO Posted: September 19, 2008 at 02:18 PM (#2947318)
Why do threads like this get more posts than threads germane to baseball? Am I evil for even bringing that up? It seems like some Primates are more interested in displaying their anti-authority cred than talking about baseball.


Threads like this get more posts because a huge number of us, at one point or another, have run into cops who we believe treated us or someone we know closely in an unfair manner. As a result, there's a fairly personal sense of involvement in these cases.

Most cops are good people, and my personal dealings with them have always been about as pleasant and non-confrontational as they could be. On the other hand, the one who attempted to conduct an illegal search on my lawyer brother, and refused to provide any identifying information when challenged, was a jerk attempting to abuse their authority. And the group of cops in my area who assaulted the person who videotaped them drinking while in uniform on public property were also jerks attempting to abuse their authority.
   28. Best Dressed Chicken in Town Posted: September 19, 2008 at 02:18 PM (#2947319)
They're enforcing the law. I think you mean that the laws suck.

No, I think he meant that cops suck, which they do.
   29. Best Dressed Chicken in Town Posted: September 19, 2008 at 02:21 PM (#2947321)
umps suck!

True that.
   30. RJ in TO Posted: September 19, 2008 at 02:22 PM (#2947324)
umps suck!

True that.


Especially Phil Cuzzi.
   31. Swedish Chef Posted: September 19, 2008 at 02:31 PM (#2947332)
If a political discussion turned into a 3000 post thread on umpires the cosmic balance would be restored.
   32. The importance of being Ernest Riles Posted: September 19, 2008 at 02:38 PM (#2947336)
Nyjer, please.

Hey, I laughed.
   33. Zac Schmitt Posted: September 19, 2008 at 02:45 PM (#2947346)
for a minute there i thought the headline said that rob neyer and joe morgan were pulled over while driving together, and i couldn't for the life of me figure out why they would be doing that.
   34. Shredder Posted: September 19, 2008 at 02:48 PM (#2947348)
sadly they pulled me over when they had nothing on me.
You'd prefer they pull you over when they do have something on you? Those are probably the times i prefer to avoid getting pulled over.
   35. Boots Day Posted: September 19, 2008 at 02:49 PM (#2947349)
The key ingredient in a 3000-post thread is for people to violently disagree. It's not hard to figure out that people will have stronger disagreements over potential police abuse based on possible racism than they will have on whether Yankee Stadium can talk.
   36. Nasty Nate Posted: September 19, 2008 at 02:52 PM (#2947353)
When the officer asked Morgan to step out of the car, the Pirates' outfielder admitted he got agitated and lost his temper. Morgan said that all the players were searched. Morgan's SUV also was searched.


I've never been asked to get out of the car or had my car searched during a traffic violation, but I've also never lost my temper at a cop pulling me over.
   37. Lassus Posted: September 19, 2008 at 02:56 PM (#2947358)
If a political discussion turned into a 3000 post thread on umpires the cosmic balance would be restored.

I've recently had intereaction with a number of umpires, and I have to say that they really don't suck at all. I'm sure there's a bell curve working as in every population, but I've met a lot of other professions where the suckiness is FAR more pronounced.
   38. RB in NYC (Now Semi-Retired from BBTF) Posted: September 19, 2008 at 03:02 PM (#2947362)
We had something of an umpire thread during the replay time, before it melted down into a UNION GOOD!/UNION BAD! thing
   39. Lassus Posted: September 19, 2008 at 03:24 PM (#2947391)
Actually, I'd love to know, what are people's opinions on the umpires as a whole?

IF YOU BUILD THE THREAD THEY WILL COME

(I don't mean the umpires, of course.)
   40. The Anthony Kennedy of BBTF (Scott) Posted: September 19, 2008 at 03:26 PM (#2947395)
i'm sorry, i have a very hard time believing that the police had probable cause to search the car, or met the PA Supreme Court requirement for fear of their own safety to require a search of the car (as the PA courts once said "the talismanic use" of fear for their own safety renders the term meaningless, they have to think the guys in the car are an actual threat). a simple violation due to tinted windows is not nearly enough to have a full search, nor is even Mr. Morgan being upset unless he made the police officers fear for their own safety based upon PA caselaw. Given that i worked for the philly defenders association this year and actually know a thing or two about police stops, for once i know something of which i speak.

given that PA police departments are notorious for illegal searches, and that there's no remedy whatsoever to an illegal search that doesn't result in an arrest, and given that the PA police departments as a whole have a pretty damned bad record when it comes to racial profiling and how they treat young black men compared to, say, young white women, yeah- i'm pissed about this. as much that 4 men who at worst committed a moving violation as the fact that many middle class white professionals here are drowning in privilege without even realizing it and immediately leaping to the conclusion that this brother was clearly in the wrong and as such he doesn't have any right to complain how he's treated by the police.

edit: hell, there's no real remedy even if you get arrested, even without charges the arrest will stay on your record and never truly comes off. but man do i ever have a ton of stories about Pennsyvania police and illegal searches. one of my favorite is when 4 17-18 year olds broke down on the highway on their way back from the movies. the police showed up, handcuffed them all, and tore the car apart. then held them on the side of the road for 3 hours, and finally just left them there. after confiscating their cellphones and telling the towtruck they called to go away. fun times! they didn't find anything, either.
   41. Swedish Chef Posted: September 19, 2008 at 03:33 PM (#2947400)
Actually, I'd love to know, what are people's opinions on the umpires as a whole?

Umpires will always be perceived to suck, because they don't get any cred for anything they do right and any and all mistakes will be hysterically reacted to by one set of fans. Also a lot of correct decisions will be lambasted by the injuried party.

So why do your job well if there isn't any upside? Better make capricious decisions and really #### around with players and fans, then at least you'll have some fun while being booed.
   42. Famous Original Joe C Posted: September 19, 2008 at 03:37 PM (#2947407)
Nyjer, please.

Hey, I laughed.


I did too.
   43. MM1f Posted: September 19, 2008 at 03:45 PM (#2947422)
<i<>I saw a car yesterday that either had the most heavily tinted I have ever seen (actually not seen) or were painted black. How does a driver see through them? Night vision goggles? </i>

Anyone see Always Sunny in Philadelphia last night?
   44. scareduck Posted: September 19, 2008 at 03:49 PM (#2947430)
Who said the search was illegal?


It doesn't sound like they had probable cause. A bunch of ballplayers coming off work? #40 is exactly right. the "fear for their own safety" line is a crock when used as a global excuse instead of the much tougher probable cause standard.

I blame the BTF libertarian clique and their anything goes philosophy. If we had a well-regulated BTF, things like this wouldn't happen.


Your ideas are intriguing to me and I wish to subscribe to your newsletter. "Libertarian clique"? I'd like to meet them some time ...
   45. Moses Taylor hashes out the rumpus Posted: September 19, 2008 at 03:59 PM (#2947441)
Anyone see Always Sunny in Philadelphia last night?

The rape van was a pretty good gag.
   46. Hello Rusty Kuntz, Goodbye Rusty Cars Posted: September 19, 2008 at 04:00 PM (#2947443)
Anyone see Always Sunny in Philadelphia last night?


Russell Martin was about to yell "Wild card, #######!" when they got pulled over.
   47. Robert in Manhattan Beach Posted: September 19, 2008 at 04:17 PM (#2947468)
Actually, I'd love to know, what are people's opinions on the umpires as a whole?

I think umps are really quite good on calls on the bases (out/safe, fair/foul, caught/trapped). The quality of work on balls and strikes varies wildly from ump to ump and night to night.

My biggest beef with umps is the Joe West "look at me, I'm in charge" stuff.
   48. T.J. Posted: September 19, 2008 at 04:30 PM (#2947493)
Nyjer, please.

Hey, I laughed.

I did too.


Trio (is that the "third" version of "Ditto"?).
   49. JimMusComp likes Billy Eppler.... Posted: September 19, 2008 at 04:35 PM (#2947500)
The key ingredient in a 3000-post thread is <strike>for people to violently disagree</strike> Kevin.

Fixed.

Just kidding, Kev.
   50. scareduck Posted: September 19, 2008 at 04:37 PM (#2947503)
More evidence the law enforcers were being very selective:
Morgan said he produced paperwork to show that the tinted windows were within legal limits and that the vehicle was registered, prompting the officer to let them go.

Despite the fact that it was a new car without plates (do the cops seriously pull over everyone for having tinted windows on a new car without plates?), it really seems like the cops were just out hassling guys for DWB.
   51. Dizzypaco Posted: September 19, 2008 at 04:46 PM (#2947512)
Despite the fact that it was a new car without plates (do the cops seriously pull over everyone for having tinted windows on a new car without plates?), it really seems like the cops were just out hassling guys for DWB.

And then there's this:
Beimel, who is white and used to live in a Pittsburgh suburb, said he was once pulled over in the area because he had tinted windows.

The combination of tinted windows with no license plates certainly gives reason for suspicion that the cops were just doing their job. In this situation, every explanation is possible. As has been said, some people assume that DWB never happens, and some people assume that DWB is always the explanation anytime anyone who is B is pulled over.
   52. Bob T Posted: September 19, 2008 at 04:46 PM (#2947514)
A Western PA native I work with said that she thinks it was more of a case of the cops trying to catch DUI offenders. They will pull cars over for the slightest reason if they think they have a halfway decent shot at getting an arrest for DUI.
   53. Cooperstown Schtick Posted: September 19, 2008 at 04:52 PM (#2947520)
Actually, I'd love to know, what are people's opinions on the umpires as a whole?

I prefer them to cameras. By more orders of magnitude than there are bad calls.
   54. More Dewey is Always Good Posted: September 19, 2008 at 04:52 PM (#2947523)
The combination of tinted windows with no license plates certainly gives reason for suspicion that the cops were just doing their job.

Timothy McVeigh was pulled over for driving a car with no license plates, searched, and arrested for carrying a concealed weapon.

Driving without license plates is absolutely a good reason to be pulled over - probably a lot better than having tinted windows. I'm amazed at how many people I see driving around doing exactly that.
   55. Edmundo got dem ol' Kozma blues again mama Posted: September 19, 2008 at 04:53 PM (#2947524)
In response to Lassus, I'm in lockstep with RiR in #47.
   56. Gonfalon Bubble Posted: September 19, 2008 at 04:55 PM (#2947529)
#11: Nyjer, please.

#32: Hey, I laughed.

#42: I did too.

#48: Trio (is that the "third" version of "Ditto"?).


And I make it a barbershop quartet. But a funky one!

(I also laughed at #35.)
   57. More Dewey is Always Good Posted: September 19, 2008 at 04:56 PM (#2947530)
I'd say that MLB umpires do a much better job, on the whole, than NFL referees, and a million times better than NBA referees.

They certainly do a good enough job, on the whole, to obviate the use of instant replay.
   58. "Catching Dianetics" by Dr. L. Ron Karkovice Posted: September 19, 2008 at 04:57 PM (#2947532)
He was caught socializing with three enemy players from the LA Dodgers? Kayfabe hasn't been punctured so thoroughly in professional sports since Hacksaw Jim Duggan and the Iron Sheikh (the two were in-ring kayfabe enemies) were busted for cocaine and marijuana while traveling together in New Jersey in 1987.
   59. Best Dressed Chicken in Town Posted: September 19, 2008 at 05:00 PM (#2947534)
Umpires will always be perceived to suck

because they suck. I saw a pitch right down the middle (confirmed by K-zone) called a ball last week. Presumably because the catcher had to move to catch it. That should fool umpires in high school or Little League. Not the guys who are supposed to be the best at their jobs. Right down the middle! That's just one example, which means little on its own, but it's hardly on its own.

I think umps are really quite good on calls on the bases (out/safe

you must be kidding. On any out/safe call that isn't blindingly obvious, they get it right maybe 50% of the time. They're guessing! Why not hire monkeys, or flip a coin. Not to mention they treat everything like a force play. Doesn't matter if the tag is missed - ball beat him, he's out.
   60. Jack Sommers Posted: September 19, 2008 at 05:20 PM (#2947563)
On any out/safe call that isn't blindingly obvious, they get it right maybe 50% of the time


Really ? Can you link me up to that study, I must have missed it. IOW, MY subjective observations and opinion differs from yours on this matter. ;)

As for the Cops thing:

I wasn't there, and there's not enough info here for me to really form a solid opinion. I've had the crap beaten out of me by a couple of Cops when I was a teenager, ironically during the only moment in time between ages 14-18 that I wasn't doing anything wrong at all. I've also had my arse saved by a Cop more than once. Some people good. Some people bad. Cops = people.
   61. More Dewey is Always Good Posted: September 19, 2008 at 05:26 PM (#2947571)
On any out/safe call that isn't blindingly obvious, they get it right maybe 50% of the time.

I don't think this is true at all. I think umpires are "right" 99+ percent of the time on safe/out calls on the basepaths, and it's not because 98% of them are "blindingly obvious".

Safe/out on the basepaths is something that umpires do very well in general.
   62. Shredder Posted: September 19, 2008 at 05:39 PM (#2947582)

Anyone see Always Sunny in Philadelphia last night?
I cut the brakes! Wild card, b!+ches!

But yeah, the tinted windows were the first thing I thought of when I saw this thread.
   63. Barry`s_Lazy_Boy Posted: September 19, 2008 at 05:44 PM (#2947594)
I love how seemingly every time you read about a car getting caught with 100+ pounds of pot in it, they are pulled over for speeding, or no plates, or a broken tail light, or some other stupidly mundane detail.
   64. Random Transaction Generator Posted: September 19, 2008 at 05:49 PM (#2947610)
Whenever I've been pulled over for a traffic violation (speeding thrice, "bad left turn" once), I have NEVER been asked to get out of the car and then had it searched.

I'm a white, and I've only been pulled over by Canadian cops, so I am clueless as to the reason why American cops make you get out of the car and search it.
   65. Best Dressed Chicken in Town Posted: September 19, 2008 at 05:57 PM (#2947623)
Because we have to be Tough On Crime. And if you've done nothing wrong, you shouldn't care as you don't have anything to hide.
   66. The importance of being Ernest Riles Posted: September 19, 2008 at 05:59 PM (#2947629)
Is there ever a situation where racial - or any kind of - profiling is acceptable?

I'm a brown dude with an obviously Muslim middle name. I get randomly selected for searches at airports, and there always seems to be a closer eye on me than on other passengers. The scrutiny seems to be a lot milder when I travel with my white wife and baby son. I don't really mind - rarely takes more than a minute of my time - particularly when I'm as worried about airport security as the next guy.

Am I being complicit with profiling, just being a good citizen, or both? I don't really know.
   67. Hello Rusty Kuntz, Goodbye Rusty Cars Posted: September 19, 2008 at 06:11 PM (#2947648)
I'm a brown dude with an obviously Muslim middle name.


I think I'm voting for you in November.
   68. The importance of being Ernest Riles Posted: September 19, 2008 at 06:12 PM (#2947651)
I think I'm voting for you in November.

Hey, I laughed.
   69. Eric J can SABER all he wants to Posted: September 19, 2008 at 06:12 PM (#2947652)
I'm tired of these players like Albert Belle and Nyjer Morgan having heavily tinted windows.
   70. Barry`s_Lazy_Boy Posted: September 19, 2008 at 06:14 PM (#2947656)
How do we know Morgan didn't give them permission to search? My wife watches all those damn First 48, Cold Case, etc., kind of cable shows, and I'm amazed at the number of people who consent to searches, don't lawyer up, etc.

I'm white and I have had cops attempt to search my car, and said no.
   71. Bring Me the Head of Alfredo Griffin (Vlad) Posted: September 19, 2008 at 06:29 PM (#2947687)
Small sample size and all that, but I live in Pittsburgh, and the only time I've ever been pulled over when I wasn't doing something obviously wrong was when I gave a black friend a lift home from school (one of maybe three black kids in the entire school of 1,200 at the time).
   72. Edmundo got dem ol' Kozma blues again mama Posted: September 19, 2008 at 06:36 PM (#2947707)
I've actually been pulled over twice, both times for real broken brake lights. One time it was a DWW situation, as I was cutting through a black neighborhood on my way to work at 5 AM for an early system upgrade. He didn't make me get out of the car, although he was really curious what I was doing there.
   73. Fred C. Dobbs Posted: September 19, 2008 at 06:37 PM (#2947713)
Sounds like Pittsburgh needs to work on it's race relations! I think they should cancel all the Steelers games this year and use that time at the stadium to get together and talk about how the problem can be resolved.
   74. The Anthony Kennedy of BBTF (Scott) Posted: September 19, 2008 at 06:41 PM (#2947721)
I think I'm voting for you in November.

Hey, I laughed.


Make it two!

BLB: i've had clients both white and black who've refused to give permission for a search. the search usually happens anyways. also, when the cop says something like "get out of the car." and while you're standing with your hands on the hood and he says "i'm going to search your car now, ok?" usually it doesn't sound like a request. I'm still having trouble with the PC, and while the stop may have been ok in and of itself, the search in my mind does not appear to be.
   75. Barry`s_Lazy_Boy Posted: September 19, 2008 at 06:47 PM (#2947732)
and while you're standing with your hands on the hood and he says "i'm going to search your car now, ok?" usually it doesn't sound like a request.

Thats the crux of the problem. Not enough people know their rights and the cops certainly aren't going to inform you of them.

My posts may give the impression that I don't think cops suck. They do. I'm just playing devils advocate. At best, this situation sounds very shady.
   76. Eric P. Posted: September 19, 2008 at 06:55 PM (#2947748)
Anyone see Always Sunny in Philadelphia last night?

First thing I did upon seeing this thread was Ctrl+F, "Sunny". The cops are lucky Morgan had left his hot plate back at the hotel!
   77. Edmundo got dem ol' Kozma blues again mama Posted: September 19, 2008 at 06:59 PM (#2947758)
At best, this situation sounds very shady.
Isn't that why you tint?
   78. flournoy Posted: September 19, 2008 at 07:00 PM (#2947765)
We had something of an umpire thread during the replay time, before it melted down into a UNION GOOD!/UNION BAD! thing


Please give credit where credit is due. I melted that thread into a union trashing with the very first comment.
   79. Lassus Posted: September 19, 2008 at 07:11 PM (#2947773)
The best-dressed chicken is dressed worse than the emperor. You seriously need to get over yourself.
   80. Shredder Posted: September 19, 2008 at 07:19 PM (#2947780)

First thing I did upon seeing this thread was Ctrl+F, "Sunny". The cops are lucky Morgan had left his hot plate back at the hotel!
Did you change this? The first time I read it I thought there was a reference to the hunger.

I've been to three Best Buys, a Borders, and a Circuit City (man, that place sucks), and every single one has been sold out of season 3.
   81. The Anthony Kennedy of BBTF (Scott) Posted: September 19, 2008 at 07:21 PM (#2947782)

Thats the crux of the problem. Not enough people know their rights and the cops certainly aren't going to inform you of them.

My posts may give the impression that I don't think cops suck. They do. I'm just playing devils advocate. At best, this situation sounds very shady.


I'm not really contesting the stop at this point, though I personally don't believe it was kosher. The search bothers me, especially if Nyjer had the documents in his glove compartment and his license on him. Just because someone isn't aware that they can tell the cops to not search their car doesn't mean it's OK for the cops to search the car. It's still a violation of the 4th amendment, and I'm disappointed with how cavalierly people seem to dismiss the concerns or, worse, view it as within the cops purview.

And stop talking about umps, damnit. It's not that common that a BTF thread is right in my wheelhouse. Criminal law is all i got! (well, and asylum law, but that only applies to defecting Cubans and there aren't many arguments over whether they should get asylum on BTF).
   82. Barry`s_Lazy_Boy Posted: September 19, 2008 at 07:26 PM (#2947794)
Just because someone isn't aware that they can tell the cops to not search their car doesn't mean it's OK for the cops to search the car. It's still a violation of the 4th amendment

So its a 4th amendment violation if the cop asks "do you mind if I search your car?" and they say "ok"?

I'm honestly asking; what have the courts found? From my fairly limited reading on the subject, the courts have ruled you basically lose most of your rights when you get behind the wheel.
   83. 185/456(GGC) Posted: September 19, 2008 at 07:33 PM (#2947810)
I'm a brown dude with an obviously Muslim middle name.


When I saw your name at THT, I assumed you were Italian. I guess that's what I get for going to Catholic school.
   84. villageidiom Posted: September 19, 2008 at 07:40 PM (#2947815)
Are there people who think that being pulled over for doing nothing wrong other than being black is not something that ever happens? I think it happens, but not in this case. Morgan and Martin don't think it happened in this case (see the second link in #14), and that's good enough for me. Why it isn't good enough for others, I don't know.

I've said for many years that I can't imagine being black and, upon any slight, any rudeness or coldness, any inconvience at the hands of a white person, having to wonder whether I'm a victim of racism. I've met many rude, mean, inconsiderate, and vile white people in my life, but never would it occur to me that they behaved that way because they hate me for my skin color. I just assume they're jerks, or they didn't get enough sleep last night, or something.

I'm sure DWB happens. But given the number of times I've heard white people complain about being pulled over "for no reason", I think a fair number of the perceived cases of DWB are simply the same thing except with a pretty big assumption attached.
   85. Backlasher Posted: September 19, 2008 at 07:46 PM (#2947825)
So its a 4th amendment violation if the cop asks "do you mind if I search your car?" and they say "ok"?


No, its a 4th Amendment violation if they prolong thestop beyond the time it would otherwise take. At which point it becomes an illegal detention. Asking the question is not a per se violation. There use to be a doctrine that a question beyond the scope of the stop was improper but that is not the modern rule in effect in most jurisdictions.

(EDIT: If the officer knew there was no violation than any additional period of time is a prolongment.)

From my fairly limited reading on the subject, the courts have ruled you basically lose most of your rights when you get behind the wheel.


THe courts have ruled that you have less of an expectation of privacy in your motor vehicle, not that you lose all rights.
   86. Barry`s_Lazy_Boy Posted: September 19, 2008 at 07:53 PM (#2947836)
Hypothetical: A group of three twentysomething white dudes is pulled over for speeding. Officers request to search the car. Dudes refuse. Realizing it is a rental car, cops detain dudes for 2 hours until supposedly receiving permission from rental car company to search the car. Is this even legal? Is the 2 hour detention a 4th amendment violation?
   87. Edmundo got dem ol' Kozma blues again mama Posted: September 19, 2008 at 07:54 PM (#2947839)
I wonder if the Pirates are making plans for Nyjer any more
   88. The Anthony Kennedy of BBTF (Scott) Posted: September 19, 2008 at 07:58 PM (#2947845)
So its a 4th amendment violation if the cop asks "do you mind if I search your car?" and they say "ok"?

The courts would say no. However, it largely depends on how people are asked. Generally the court gives very wide leeway towards law enforcement officials, there was once a situation where they upheld a search on a Greyhound bus after telling people they'd have to get off the bus if they didn't consent to a search, but then there are other times they've thrown out a search like on another Greyhound bus when a police officer squeezed overhead baggage on his way down a bus during a sweep for illegal immigrants, felt a brick like object, asked if he could search the bag, got an ok, and found drugs. So the law isn't entirely non-schizophrenic on the federal level. In PA the laws are a bit more friendly towards defendants, but when it comes to searches they're still pretty lenient on how the cops can ask to search, or when they're allowed to search in a first place.

Further, the police usually use "for their own protection" as their cause for a search, which doesn't require consent. In a case I think Scalia wrote the opinion for, someone in a car can have their car searched for weapons if they're in the car at the time the cop arrives. This search can't go into a closed trunk, but can look everywhere else. All the cop needs is to fear for his own safety. Of course, this means we commonly have terrified cops when there's no cause to be, and during their search for weapons they find, hey presto, some drugs.
   89. Backlasher Posted: September 19, 2008 at 08:00 PM (#2947848)
Hypothetical: A group of three twentysomething white dudes is pulled over for speeding. Officers request to search the car. Dudes refuse. Realizing it is a rental car, cops detain dudes for 2 hours until supposedly receiving permission from rental car company to search the car. Is this even legal? Is the 2 hour detention a 4th amendment violation?


When did he ask to search, before or after the violation?

What was his reason for requesting the search?

Is there any reason to believe the rental car is not lawfully being driven by the drivers?

How fast where they going (could they be lawfully detained for the speeding)?

If he issues a citation, then asks to search and has no additional probable cause of other criminal activity then you have a good argument for an improper detention.

That leads to a practical question, what did he find? Most cops that find open containers or contraband, will,

"... traffic stop ... excess of the posted rate of speed ... Upon approaching the vehicle, I smelled the strong and distinct odor of marijuana"

That can get you over the PC hump with most judges in these parts.

EDIT: There is also a doctrine that the detention was consensual, but that may go to what actually happened with the detention, whether the persons could be detained, etc.

Cops also pull out "driver nervous...lots of luggage in the back...unusual traffic patterns. THere are lots of ways to manufacture PC.
   90. Barry`s_Lazy_Boy Posted: September 19, 2008 at 08:03 PM (#2947853)
Well, he hypothetically asked after the violation, if the violation was speeding.

He hypothetically didn't give a reason to search. Other than being a redneck jerk.

No real reason to think the car was not lawfully being driven. It had out of state plates.

His search was successful, hypothetically.
   91. The Anthony Kennedy of BBTF (Scott) Posted: September 19, 2008 at 08:06 PM (#2947858)
Hypothetical: A group of three twentysomething white dudes is pulled over for speeding. Officers request to search the car. Dudes refuse. Realizing it is a rental car, cops detain dudes for 2 hours until supposedly receiving permission from rental car company to search the car. Is this even legal? Is the 2 hour detention a 4th amendment violation?

Again, it depends on the circumstances, although the issue is ancillary to the 4th amendment issue of whether the cops can ask the rental car agency for permission to search (which they can, although in PA at least constructive possession would become harder to prove with a rental car). The big question is whether a reasonable person in the same situation would consider themselves under arrest. So if they were handcuffed, had everything in their pockets taken and put in an evidence baggie, and put into the back of a squad-car, and then someone talked about taking them down to the station, it'd be more likely that a reasonable* person would view themselves in that situation as under arrest. If that's the case, the police officer would need probable cause to keep them. If they're just waiting by the side of the road and allowed to move around but not leave, the detention is more likely to be seen as kosher. But really, it all depends on what judge you have.

* The reasonable person is one of the most asinine constructs in legal theory. What the heck defines a reasonable person?!
   92.  Posted: September 19, 2008 at 08:08 PM (#2947860)
Fixed.

Just kidding, Kev.


No, in a thread like this you really need Eraser-X
   93. The Anthony Kennedy of BBTF (Scott) Posted: September 19, 2008 at 08:09 PM (#2947861)
Re: Backlasher, I agree with what he wrote. Especially about the cops manufacturing PC. I'm pretty sure that every police officer in major cities either smoke so much weed that they can't get the smell of marijuana out of their noses, or they have the most sensitive noses ever, or they just make #### up.
   94. The importance of being Ernest Riles Posted: September 19, 2008 at 08:10 PM (#2947864)
What the heck defines a reasonable person?!

Just watch me and do what I do.

(Hey, I avoided snarking on Kevin with this comment, didn't I?)
   95. The Anthony Kennedy of BBTF (Scott) Posted: September 19, 2008 at 08:11 PM (#2947867)
"THe courts have ruled that you have less of an expectation of privacy in your motor vehicle, not that you lose all rights."

The big thing is that the SCOTUS ruled that a Terry frisk at a car stop means the police officer is allowed to search the car itself, which to me is one of the things that makes me want Scalia to get off the court ASAP. If a person is in the back of a squadcar (as they are during these car searches in most police protocol) they sure as heck can't get to a handgun in the console, much less one in the hatchback trunk.
   96. Backlasher Posted: September 19, 2008 at 08:14 PM (#2947872)
No real reason to think the car was not lawfully being driven. It had out of state plates.

His search was successful, hypothetically.


Then the hypothetical testimony might look like this:

"At _________ time, will on patrol at __________, I noticed a vehicle with out of state plates exceeding the posted rate of speed, driving in an area known for drug use, and moving erratically. Upon approaching the car, the driver seemed nervous, and [anything that can be said about noncooperation or disorientation]. As he rolled down his window, I smelled the strong and distinct odor of _______ coming from the driver and about the vehicle. I asked the driver and passenger to exit the vehicle. At this time I did __________. Upon noticing that the vehicle was not the property of the drivers, I impounded the vehicle until permission for a search could be obtained from the lawful owners. At which time, I detained the driver and passenger. Based on my observations of __________, I felt that releasing the car to their custody would pose a danger to public safety."

It might be different in different jurisdictions, but the best advice to these hypothetical persons would be to retain legal counsel to determine what arguments could be made in their jurisdiction and the probability of success in those arguments. Those hypothetical persons should not try to deduce strategy from an internet message board.

Most important, I must state that none of this should be construed as legal advice, nor should anyone have an expectation of privacy or privilege on anything posted herein.
   97. Barry`s_Lazy_Boy Posted: September 19, 2008 at 08:17 PM (#2947879)
Thanks for answers about my hypothetical. And I won't hypothetically go back 10 years in time and use it as legal advice.
   98. The Anthony Kennedy of BBTF (Scott) Posted: September 19, 2008 at 08:18 PM (#2947882)
i feel like i've read #96 in a preliminary hearing transcript.

Those hypothetical persons should not try to deduce strategy from an internet message board.

yes.

Most important, I must state that none of this should be constituted as legal advice, nor should anyone have an expectation of privacy or privilege on anything posted herein.

yes. and nothing i should say should be construed in any way as legal advice, nor am i able to give any legal advice until I pass the bar at the end of 3L this year.
   99. scotto Posted: September 19, 2008 at 08:21 PM (#2947886)
I wonder if the Pirates are making plans for Nyjer any more

The Pirates front office:

We're only making plans for Nyjer
We only want what's best for him
Were only making plans for Nyjer
Nyjer just needs this helping hand...
   100. scareduck Posted: September 19, 2008 at 08:51 PM (#2947909)
Because we have to be Tough On Crime. And if you've done nothing wrong, you shouldn't care as you don't have anything to hide.

Unless your name is Todd Palin. Or, really, any Republican for that matter.
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