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Saturday, April 27, 2019

MLB roundup: Pujols moves up RBI list in Angels win

Albert Pujols continued to move up the career RBI list, passing Lou Gehrig for fourth place all-time in the Los Angeles Angels’ 5-1 victory over the Royals Friday in Kansas City.

Pujols stands one behind Barry Bonds for third place with 1,995 RBIs. Only two players (Hank Aaron, 2,297; and Alex Rodriguez, 2,086) have driven in at least 2,000 runs.

Tyler Skaggs (2-2) continued his mastery of the Royals at Kauffman Stadium. Skaggs allowed three hits and no runs in five innings (plus one batter). He now has allowed one earned run in 26 innings (0.35 ERA) in four appearances. He has the best ERA all-time against the Royals at Kauffman (min. 20 innings).

Danny Duffy (0-1), who came off the 10-day injured list for his first start of the season, allowed three runs on five hits in five innings. He struggled in the first inning, giving up two runs and three hits. Pujols took a 2-1 pitch from Duffy and drove it into the fountains in left center, 430 feet away. With the home run, his fourth of the year, he moved past Lou Gehrig into fourth place all-time in RBIs.

For those who want a reminder as for why RBIs are considered of dubious statistical value….

 

QLE Posted: April 27, 2019 at 09:31 AM | 47 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
  Tags: albert pujols, rbi

Reader Comments and Retorts

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   1. caspian88 Posted: April 27, 2019 at 11:48 AM (#5835871)
I hate that National Association statistics are ignored by MLB. Cap Anson is also in the way.
   2. Lassus Posted: April 27, 2019 at 11:53 AM (#5835872)
I find the intro confusing. If five of the admittedly most valuable players of all time are on the very top of the RBI list, how does that remind someone of the dubiousness of RBI as a stat?
   3. Sweatpants Posted: April 27, 2019 at 11:54 AM (#5835874)
He's also at 100.01 WAR as of this morning. The dance with the 100-WAR border continues.
   4. SoSH U at work Posted: April 27, 2019 at 12:00 PM (#5835875)
I find the intro confusing. If five of the admittedly most valuable players of all time are on the very top of the RBI list, how does that remind someone of the dubiousness of RBI as a stat?


And it's not like he drove in a run on a groundout to short. He passed him on a homer.

   5. Best Dressed Chicken in Town Posted: April 27, 2019 at 01:14 PM (#5835887)
I hate that National Association statistics are ignored by MLB. Cap Anson is also in the way.


It's not just that. They are ignoring all RBIs before 1920! Babe Ruth also has 2200 RBI, but MLB is pretending Pujols passed him last week. Even the YES network, which one would think has an interest in preserving the legacy of Ruth, played along and showed a graphic that Pujols had passed him. Which he hasn't. It's an utter untruth. Apparently Ruth had to hit 50 homers before he ever drove a run in.

It's a remarkable misstep for a sport which, probably more than any other, likes to celebrate its long history.
   6. What did Billy Ripken have against ElRoy Face? Posted: April 27, 2019 at 01:41 PM (#5835889)
They are ignoring all RBIs before 1920!
What?? Why?
   7. The Yankee Clapper Posted: April 27, 2019 at 01:58 PM (#5835893)
For the same reason they ignore all the pre-Save rule Saves. MLB was a little slow making RBI an official statistic.
   8. Lance Reddick! Lance him! Posted: April 27, 2019 at 02:56 PM (#5835898)
I find the intro confusing. If five of the admittedly most valuable players of all time are on the very top of the RBI list, how does that remind someone of the dubiousness of RBI as a stat?

I imagine it has something to do with the fact that Pujols has been a garbage heap for years yet continues his march up the leaderboard.
   9. Lassus Posted: April 27, 2019 at 03:01 PM (#5835899)
Well, I grok that, but with almost zero exception, that's how everyone's (long) career ends. Something described along the lines of "it always ends badly, otherwise it wouldn't be ending." It doesn't change Pujols' all-timer, no-doubter, first-ballot career, which is what I was referring to for everyone in #2.
   10. Howie Menckel Posted: April 27, 2019 at 03:28 PM (#5835902)
The great Sean Forman at BB-Ref has made MLB irrelevant.

this is the correct list:

Rank Player (yrs, age) Runs Batted In
1. Hank Aaron+ (23) 2297
2. Babe Ruth+ (22) 2214
3. Alex Rodriguez (22) 2086
4. Cap Anson+ (27) 2075
5. Barry Bonds (22) 1996
6. Lou Gehrig+ (17) 1995
6. Albert Pujols (19, 39) 1995
8. Stan Musial+ (22) 1951
9. Ty Cobb+ (24) 1944
10. Jimmie Foxx+ (20) 1922

and these are the active leaders

Rank Player (yrs, age) Runs Batted In
1. Albert Pujols (19, 39) 1995
2. Miguel Cabrera (17, 36) 1645
3. Robinson Cano (15, 36) 1244
4. Edwin Encarnacion (15, 36) 1175
5. Ryan Braun (13, 35) 1069
6. Nelson Cruz (15, 38) 1026
7. Matt Kemp (14, 34) 1010
8. Ryan Zimmerman (15, 34) 999
9. Nick Markakis (14, 35) 986
10. Brian McCann (15, 35) 981
   11. the Centaur Nipple Paradox (CoB). Posted: April 27, 2019 at 03:36 PM (#5835905)
Everything ends badly, otherwise, it would never end.

-Cocktail
   12. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: April 27, 2019 at 03:48 PM (#5835908)
Well, I grok that, but with almost zero exception, that's how everyone's (long) career ends.

Is that really true? Lots of all time greats have hung it up without ever really being bad.

Williams, Cobb, Ruth, Mantle, Hornsby, Collins, Musial, Ott, F Robinson, all good until the end, or very, very close. Most of the guys on the top of the WAR batting leaders didn't ever have a real downside.
   13. Lassus Posted: April 27, 2019 at 04:04 PM (#5835915)
-Cocktail

Heh. Thanks. I knew it was from somewhere, although I have actually not seen that film.


Is that really true?

I'm sure I have exaggerated for effect, but I still find the intro weird. "All of these all-timer, no-doubter players have top RBI totals, so look how dumb RBI is at showing talent".
   14. SoSH U at work Posted: April 27, 2019 at 04:12 PM (#5835917)
I imagine it has something to do with the fact that Pujols has been a garbage heap for years yet continues his march up the leaderboard.


He's also been marching up the homer leaderboard despite being a garbage heap for years. In fact, he's in the same spot on both (at least on BBRef's lists). Would that be a reminder that homers are of dubious statistical value?

   15. Infinite Yost (Voxter) Posted: April 27, 2019 at 05:40 PM (#5835940)
Good for Pujols, I suppose, but I hate that he has to hang around being such a bummer to watch. Once upon a time he was an artist with a bat in his hands.
   16. Misirlou gave her his Vincent to ride Posted: April 27, 2019 at 06:54 PM (#5835950)
Is that really true? Lots of all time greats have hung it up without ever really being bad.


Well, the only reason Aaron is ahead of Ruth is because of his 2 garbage years in Milwaukee. The only reason ARod is ahead of Anson is because of his last garbage year in NY.
   17. PreservedFish Posted: April 27, 2019 at 08:46 PM (#5835965)
He's one of their best hitters! Ok, it's the Angels, but still. It seems like he is - if only just barely - a deserving MLB player.
   18. caspian88 Posted: April 27, 2019 at 09:07 PM (#5835971)
I'm not going to criticize Pujols for not retiring, or even for not "retiring" (so that he could keep being paid). If he wants to keep playing, by all means, he should keep playing - whether that's for the Angels, or in Salt Lake, or in Japan, or the Long Island Ducks, whatever.

Maybe the Angels should have released him, but that's on them, not on Pujols. Rickey kept playing. Julio Franco kept playing. Baseball was better for it.
   19. Hank Gillette Posted: April 27, 2019 at 09:41 PM (#5835979)
I find the intro confusing. If five of the admittedly most valuable players of all time are on the very top of the RBI list, how does that remind someone of the dubiousness of RBI as a stat?


RBIs don’t indicate a great player; a great player tends to be high on the RBI list because they were such good batters that the managers put them in the middle of the lineup, and because they were good enough to play for a long time.

RBIs are somewhat like pitcher wins in that season totals can be high due to luck, but career totals are somewhat indicative of value. Even then, it doesn’t always even up. Mickey Mantle is 56th on the all-time RBI list, because his managers put out machines ahead of him in the lineup. Mantle was a better player than at least 40 of those ahead of him on the RBI list.
   20. Hank Gillette Posted: April 27, 2019 at 09:43 PM (#5835980)
Maybe the Angels should have released him, but that's on them, not on Pujols. Rickey kept playing. Julio Franco kept playing. Baseball was better for it.
 


Maybe baseball is better for Pujols continuing to play, but the Angels sure aren’t. He has been below average the past four years (counting 2019), and one of those he was below replacement value.
   21. SoSH U at work Posted: April 27, 2019 at 09:47 PM (#5835983)
RBIs don’t indicate a great player; a great player tends to be high on the RBI list because they were such good batters that the managers put them in the middle of the lineup, and because they were good enough to play for a long time.

RBIs are somewhat like pitcher wins in that season totals can be high due to luck, but career totals are somewhat indicative of value. Even then, it doesn’t always even up. Mickey Mantle is 56th on the all-time RBI list, because his managers put out machines ahead of him in the lineup. Mantle was a better player than at least 40 of those ahead of him on the RBI list.


And absolutely none of that is demonstrated by Albert homering to tie Gehrig on the all-time RBI list.

   22. bobm Posted: April 28, 2019 at 09:21 PM (#5836198)
For Single Seasons, From 1871 to 2019, During last season , Hall Of Fame Members (as mlb players), Played at least 0 games at C, 1B, 2B, 3B, SS, LF, CF, RF, DH or PHR, sorted by smallest WAR Position Players

                                                                  
Rk                Player WAR/pos Year  PA   BA  OBP  SLG       Pos
1           Craig Biggio    -2.1 2007 555 .251 .285 .381    *4H/D2
2              Ron Santo    -1.6 1974 418 .221 .293 .299   D45H/36
3          Harold Baines    -1.2 2001  94 .131 .202 .143       *DH
4         Travis Jackson    -1.2 1936 497 .230 .260 .297     *5/6H
5          Alan Trammell    -1.1 1996 207 .233 .267 .259   *6H4/57
6           Eddie Murray    -1.0 1997 185 .222 .281 .317       *DH
7          Dave Winfield    -1.0 1995 130 .191 .285 .287       *DH
8             Larry Doby    -1.0 1959 124 .230 .290 .301    97H/83
9      Rabbit Maranville    -0.9 1935  71 .149 .186 .179      *4/H
10       Ken Griffey Jr.    -0.8 2010 108 .184 .250 .204      *D/H
11        Enos Slaughter    -0.8 1959 135 .171 .269 .342      *H97
12        Roberto Alomar    -0.7 2004 190 .263 .321 .392     *4H/D
13          Carlton Fisk    -0.7 1993  58 .189 .228 .245      *2/H
14              Jim Rice    -0.7 1989 228 .234 .276 .344      *D/H
15        Willie McCovey    -0.7 1980 132 .204 .285 .301       *3H
16           Ernie Banks    -0.7 1971  92 .193 .247 .325      *H*3
17         Bobby Wallace    -0.7 1918 108 .153 .202 .163    *46/H5
18        Tommy McCarthy    -0.7 1896 423 .249 .316 .316      *7/9
19        Cal Ripken Jr.    -0.6 2001 516 .239 .276 .361     *5D/H
20        Bill Mazeroski    -0.6 1972  72 .188 .217 .250      H4/5
21           Duke Snider    -0.6 1964 189 .210 .302 .323      *H97
22             Edd Roush    -0.6 1931 400 .271 .308 .338       87H
23          Sam Crawford    -0.6 1917 113 .173 .204 .269     *H3/9
24          Jake Beckley    -0.6 1907 122 .209 .222 .235        *3
25        Orlando Cepeda    -0.5 1974 117 .215 .282 .290      *D/H
26          Mike Schmidt    -0.4 1989 172 .203 .297 .372        *5
27        Reggie Jackson    -0.4 1987 374 .220 .297 .402      *DH9
28           Greg Maddux    -0.3 2008  62 .109 .125 .109      *1/H
29        Edgar Martinez    -0.3 2004 549 .263 .342 .385       *DH
30            Wade Boggs    -0.3 1999 334 .301 .377 .377   *5/HD31
31         Heinie Manush    -0.3 1939  13 .000 .077 .000      /*H9
32            Lou Gehrig    -0.3 1939  33 .143 .273 .143       /*3
33          Goose Goslin    -0.3 1938  65 .158 .262 .316     *H7/9
34     Freddie Lindstrom    -0.3 1936 115 .264 .297 .302      *7/8
35    High Pockets Kelly    -0.3 1932 226 .243 .317 .356     *3/H8
36          George Brett    -0.2 1993 612 .266 .312 .434      *D/H
37      Carl Yastrzemski    -0.2 1983 437 .266 .359 .408    *DH/37
38       Brooks Robinson    -0.2 1977  52 .149 .212 .255      *5/H
39          Billy Herman    -0.2 1947  49 .213 .245 .298     *4/H3
40          Earl Averill    -0.2 1941  19 .118 .211 .118     /*H87
41         Jim Bottomley    -0.2 1937 127 .239 .346 .330       *H3
42         George Sisler    -0.2 1930 468 .309 .346 .397       *3H
43         Dave Bancroft    -0.2 1930  19 .059 .158 .118      /*6H
44            Nap Lajoie    -0.2 1916 455 .246 .272 .312    *4/37H
45          Roger Connor    -0.2 1897  97 .229 .333 .325        *3
46             John Ward    -0.2 1894 605 .266 .311 .306        *4
47     Old Hoss Radbourn    -0.2 1891 102 .177 .225 .240    *1/875
48            Tim Raines    -0.1 2002 114 .191 .351 .258     *H7/D
49          Andre Dawson    -0.1 1996  61 .276 .311 .414      *H/7
50            Tony Perez    -0.1 1986 228 .255 .333 .355       *3H
51      Harmon Killebrew    -0.1 1975 369 .199 .317 .375     *DH/3
52           Jim Bunning    -0.1 1971  30 .120 .148 .240      *1/H
53            Yogi Berra    -0.1 1965   9 .222 .222 .222     /*H*2
54      Red Schoendienst    -0.1 1963   6 .000 .000 .000       /*H
55          Phil Rizzuto    -0.1 1956  66 .231 .310 .231      *6/H
56          Lou Boudreau    -0.1 1952   3 .000 .000 .000     /*H65
57           Joe Medwick    -0.1 1948  20 .211 .250 .211        *H
58               Mel Ott    -0.1 1947   4 .000 .000 .000       /*H
59           Lloyd Waner    -0.1 1945  20 .263 .300 .263     *H/79
60           Chuck Klein    -0.1 1944   7 .143 .143 .143      /*H9
61           Pie Traynor    -0.1 1937  12 .167 .167 .167      /*5H
62        Frankie Frisch    -0.1 1937  34 .219 .242 .281      *H/4
63        Harry Heilmann    -0.1 1932  31 .258 .258 .323      /*H3
64            Ray Schalk    -0.1 1929   2 .000 .000 .000       /*2
65          Honus Wagner    -0.1 1917 263 .265 .337 .304   *35H/46
66            Joe Tinker    -0.1 1916  12 .100 .182 .100     /*6H5
67          George Davis    -0.1 1909  84 .132 .253 .147     *3/H4
68          Sam Thompson    -0.1 1906  32 .226 .250 .290       /*9
69         Dan Brouthers    -0.1 1904   5 .000 .000 .000       /*3
70           Jim ORourke    -0.1 1904   4 .250 .250 .250       /*2
71            King Kelly    -0.1 1893  73 .269 .329 .284      *2/9
72           Tom Glavine     0.0 2008  25 .105 .227 .105      *1/H
73        Billy Williams     0.0 1976 413 .211 .320 .339     *DH/7
74           Willie Mays     0.0 1973 239 .211 .303 .344     *83/H
75            Nellie Fox     0.0 1965  42 .268 .286 .317    *H/534
76          Luke Appling     0.0 1950 144 .234 .300 .320     6H3/4
77           Red Ruffing     0.0 1947  25 .208 .240 .208      /*1H
78            Paul Waner     0.0 1945        1     1.000       /*H
79         Eddie Collins     0.0 1930   3 .500 .500 .500       /*H
80          Johnny Evers     0.0 1929                  0       /*4
81       Hughie Jennings     0.0 1918                  0       /*3
82           Fred Clarke     0.0 1915   2 .500 .500 .500       /*7
83          Frank Chance     0.0 1914                  0     /*H*3
84         Jimmy Collins     0.0 1908 465 .217 .258 .263        *5
85            Buck Ewing     0.0 1897   2 .000 .500 .000       /*3
86           Mike Piazza     0.1 2007 329 .275 .313 .414       *DH
87          Paul Molitor     0.1 1998 559 .281 .335 .382     *D/3H
88           Gary Carter     0.1 1992 325 .218 .299 .340     *2H/3
89        Frank Robinson     0.1 1976  79 .224 .329 .358   *H*D/37
90             Bob Lemon     0.1 1958  14 .231 .286 .231      *1/H
91            Al Simmons     0.1 1944   6 .500 .500 .500     /*H*7
92     Charlie Gehringer     0.1 1942  52 .267 .365 .333      *H/4
93             Max Carey     0.1 1929  27 .304 .407 .304     *H/89
94         Willie Keeler     0.1 1910  14 .300 .462 .300     *H/87
95     Vladimir Guerrero     0.2 2011 590 .290 .317 .416      *D/H
96          Frank Thomas     0.2 2008 289 .240 .349 .374      *D/H
97      Rickey Henderson     0.2 2003  84 .208 .321 .306       *7H
98       Willie Stargell     0.2 1982  85 .233 .318 .411      *H/3
99         Eddie Mathews     0.2 1968  57 .212 .281 .385     *H/35
100         Warren Spahn     0.2 1965  69 .125 .254 .143      *1/H
101        Pee Wee Reese     0.2 1958 181 .224 .337 .381       65H
102          Ralph Kiner     0.2 1955 390 .243 .367 .452       *7H
103          Johnny Mize     0.2 1953 118 .250 .339 .394       *H3
104       Rogers Hornsby     0.2 1937  63 .321 .397 .429      *4/H
105            Babe Ruth     0.2 1935  92 .181 .359 .431     *7/9H
106             Sam Rice     0.2 1934 365 .293 .351 .364      *9H7
107          Elmer Flick     0.2 1910  77 .265 .359 .368      *9/H
108         Jeff Bagwell     0.3 2005 123 .250 .358 .380       *3H
109          Jimmie Foxx     0.3 1945 248 .268 .336 .420     3H5/1
110           Joe Cronin     0.3 1945  11 .375 .545 .375       /*5
111       Ivan Rodriguez     0.4 2011 137 .218 .281 .323     *2/H3
112           Hank Aaron     0.4 1976 308 .229 .315 .369     *DH/7
113            Jim Thome     0.5 2012 186 .252 .344 .442     *DH/3
114            Rod Carew     0.5 1985 518 .280 .371 .345       *3H
115         Arky Vaughan     0.5 1948 144 .244 .354 .341     *H7/5
116         Tris Speaker     0.5 1928 212 .267 .310 .450     *8H/7
117           Zack Wheat     0.5 1927 275 .324 .379 .393    *7H/98
118           Tony Gwynn     0.6 2001 112 .324 .384 .461     *H9/D
119       Ernie Lombardi     0.6 1947 117 .282 .325 .436      *H*2
120          Kiki Cuyler     0.6 1938 290 .273 .363 .399    *98H/7
121           Joe Kelley     0.6 1908 262 .259 .342 .338   *78H3/9
122         Barry Larkin     0.7 2004 386 .289 .352 .419       *6H
123            Lou Brock     0.7 1979 436 .304 .342 .398       *7H
124       Roy Campanella     0.7 1957 380 .242 .316 .388      *2/H
125         Tony Lazzeri     0.7 1939 102 .289 .422 .458     *54/H
126       Walter Johnson     0.7 1927  50 .348 .388 .522      *1/H
127        Ryne Sandberg     0.8 1997 480 .264 .308 .403     *4H/D
128          Earle Combs     0.8 1935 335 .282 .359 .362      *7H8
129          Hack Wilson     0.8 1934 235 .245 .383 .365       7H9
130            Al Kaline     0.9 1974 630 .262 .337 .389      *D/H
131          Chick Hafey     0.9 1937 284 .261 .324 .447       8H7
132       Gabby Hartnett     1.0 1941 165 .300 .356 .433       *2H
133       Home Run Baker     1.0 1922 258 .278 .327 .444       *5H
134         Johnny Bench     1.1 1983 334 .255 .308 .432    5H3/27
135      Mickey Cochrane     1.1 1937 124 .306 .452 .490        *2
136            Cap Anson     1.1 1897 497 .285 .379 .361       *32
137          Bill Dickey     1.2 1946 156 .261 .357 .366       *2H
138      Roger Bresnahan     1.2 1915 254 .204 .296 .262      *2/H
139          Stan Musial     1.3 1963 379 .255 .325 .404       *7H
140         Rick Ferrell     1.3 1947 115 .303 .389 .414      *2/H
141         Ed Delahanty     1.3 1903 171 .333 .388 .436      79/3
142          George Kell     1.4 1957 345 .297 .352 .413      *53H
143           Bill Terry     1.4 1936 252 .310 .363 .424       *3H
144         Harry Hooper     1.4 1925 518 .265 .351 .380      *9/H
145          Ozzie Smith     1.6 1996 261 .282 .358 .370       *6H
146           Joe Morgan     1.6 1984 438 .244 .356 .351     *4H/D
147          Ross Youngs     1.6 1926 421 .306 .372 .398      *9/H
148           Bid McPhee     1.6 1899 432 .279 .358 .369      *4/8
149           Joe Sewell     1.9 1933 606 .273 .361 .323      *5/H
150              Ty Cobb     1.9 1928 393 .323 .389 .431       *9H
151         Deacon White     1.9 1890 525 .260 .381 .308    *53/61
152           Joe Gordon     2.0 1950 429 .236 .340 .429       *4H
153          Robin Yount     2.1 1993 514 .258 .326 .379    *8/3DH
154       Richie Ashburn     2.1 1962 473 .306 .424 .393    89H/74
155       Billy Hamilton     2.4 1901 425 .287 .404 .356      *8/9
156        Luis Aparicio     2.6 1973 561 .271 .324 .309        *6
157        Jesse Burkett     2.6 1905 654 .257 .339 .344        *7
158        Mickey Mantle     2.7 1968 547 .237 .385 .398       *3H
159          Bobby Doerr     2.7 1951 463 .289 .378 .448        *4
160        Chipper Jones     2.8 2012 448 .287 .377 .455     *5H/D
161         Joe DiMaggio     2.9 1951 482 .263 .365 .422      *8/H
162         Ted Williams     3.0 1960 390 .316 .451 .645       *7H
163        Kirby Puckett     3.1 1995 602 .314 .379 .515 *9D/8H645
164       Hank Greenberg     3.4 1947 510 .249 .408 .478      *3/H
165      Jackie Robinson     4.5 1956 431 .275 .382 .412   *54H/37
166     Roberto Clemente     4.8 1972 413 .312 .356 .479       *9H


Provided by Baseball-Reference.com: View Play Index Tool Used
Generated 4/28/2019.
   23. Sit down, Sleepy has lots of stats Posted: April 28, 2019 at 09:27 PM (#5836200)
RBIs don’t indicate a great player; a great player tends to be high on the RBI list because they were such good batters that the managers put them in the middle of the lineup, and because they were good enough to play for a long time.
And of course, Pujols leads the all-time GIDP list, and it's not even close:

Rk Player GDP
1 Albert Pujols 377
2 Cal Ripken Jr. 350
3 Ivan Rodriguez 337
4 Hank Aaron 328
5 Carl Yastrzemski 323
6 Dave Winfield 319
7 Eddie Murray 315
8 Jim Rice 315
9 Julio Franco 312
10 Miguel Cabrera 303
Provided by Baseball-Reference.com: View Play Index Tool Used
Generated 4/28/2019.

I wonder how many he'd have, if MLB changed the rule to award an RBI for runs scored while grounding into a double play.
   24. Howie Menckel Posted: April 28, 2019 at 10:14 PM (#5836205)
Mickey Mantle is 56th on the all-time RBI list, because his managers put out machines ahead of him in the lineup.

leadoff man Bobby Richardson, 1961-66

704 PA, 67 OPS+
754 PA, 101 OPS+
668 PA, 76 OPS+
728 PA, 73 OPS+
713 PA, 74 OPS+
648 PA, 79 OPS+

he got MVP votes from 1961-65

Outs Made: 1st, 1st, 2nd, 1st, 1st, 5th (one out shy of leading the AL for 5 consecutive years)

then just like Sandy Koufax, he retired after a 6-year barrage in 1966 at age 30

ok, they weren't exactly alike (though both are still alive)

Bobby is the only man with 4 of the 30 highest out totals in MLB history



   25. caspian88 Posted: April 28, 2019 at 10:53 PM (#5836214)
I'm pretty sure everyone here is well aware that RBI are pretty much just trivia.

However, Pujols passed Barry Bonds today with two more pieces of trivia. He is 3 RBI away from being just the fifth player ever to drive in 2000 runs.

Meanwhile, CBS:

"Future Hall of Famer Albert Pujols is inching closer and closer to joining the extremely exclusive 2,000-RBI club. Sunday afternoon Pujols drove in career runs Nos. 1,996 and 1,997 with a two-run first inning double. With that one swing, he passed Barry Bonds (1,996 RBI) and moved into sole possession of third place on the all-time RBI list.

Only Hank Aaron (2,297 RBI) and Alex Rodriguez (2,086 RBI) have driven in more runs than Pujols. It should be noted, however, that MLB does not count RBI prior to 1920 because it was not yet an official statistic. Both Babe Ruth (2,214 RBI) and Cap Anson (2,075 RBI) are in the 2,000 RBI club when you count pre-1920."
   26. Howie Menckel Posted: April 28, 2019 at 10:54 PM (#5836215)
MLB does not count RBI prior to 1920 because it

is dumb
   27. bobm Posted: April 28, 2019 at 11:35 PM (#5836216)
I wonder how many he'd have, if MLB changed the rule to award an RBI for runs scored while grounding into a double play.

Here's a subset of that number, in order to use BB REF PI Event Finder without a lot of manual data download:

1950-2019, All of MLB: Double and/or Triple Plays hit into, 0 Outs, Tied Game or Put Team into Lead and with RISP

       Joe Torre 10
  Frank Robinson 10
  Gary Sheffield 10
   Dave Winfield 10
  Miguel Cabrera  9
        Jim Rice  9
  Billy Williams  9
     Willie Mays  8
     Rusty Staub  8
   Miguel Tejada  8
    Paul Konerko  8
  Mike Greenwell  8
   Luis Gonzalez  8
   Don Mattingly  8
  Edgar Martinez  8
  Cal Ripken Jr.  8
Carl Yastrzemski  8
       Al Kaline  8
       Al Oliver  8
   Albert Pujols  8
      Tony Gwynn  7
Roberto Clemente  7
    Frank Thomas  7
    Jeff Bagwell  7
Harmon Killebrew  7
 Dave Concepcion  7
    Eddie Murray  7
     David Ortiz  7
   Bobby Bonilla  7
    Bill Buckner  7





   28. the Hugh Jorgan returns Posted: April 28, 2019 at 11:44 PM (#5836217)
#26, Agree.

OK, so it wasn't an "official" stat, but it's not like we can't count them. They are recorded as a factual event. It's not like we are guessing here and there, the records are spot on, they should be included.
   29. bobm Posted: April 28, 2019 at 11:48 PM (#5836219)
RBIs don’t indicate a great player; a great player tends to be high on the RBI list because they were such good batters that the managers put them in the middle of the lineup, and because they were good enough to play for a long time.

Spanning Multiple Seasons or entire Careers, From 1871 to 2019, sorted by greatest Outs (=AB-H+SH+SF+GDP+CS)

                                                        
Rk               Player   Out    AB    H  SH  SF GDP  CS
1             Pete Rose 10328 14053 4256  56  79 247 149
2            Hank Aaron  9136 12364 3771  21 121 328  73
3      Carl Yastrzemski  9126 11988 3419  13 105 323 116
4        Cal Ripken Jr.  8893 11551 3184  10 127 350  39
5          Eddie Murray  8569 11336 3255   2 128 315  43
6      Rickey Henderson  8510 10961 3055  30  67 172 335
7          Omar Vizquel  8433 10586 2877 256  94 207 167
8         Dave Winfield  8422 11003 3110  19  95 319  96
9           Robin Yount  8415 11008 3142 104 123 217 105
10        Adrian Beltre  8340 11068 3166  14 103 279  42
11      Brooks Robinson  8340 10654 2848 101 114 297  22
12         Craig Biggio  8272 10876 3060 101  81 150 124
13          Derek Jeter  8269 11195 3465  97  58 287  97
14        Luis Aparicio  8110 10230 2677 161  76 184 136
15          Willie Mays  8056 10881 3283  13  91 251 103
16         Paul Molitor  8040 10835 3319  75 109 209 131
17       Alex Rodriguez  7915 10566 3115  16 111 261  76
18    Rabbit Maranville  7906 10078 2605     300  21 112
19      Rafael Palmeiro  7858 10472 3020  15 119 232  40
20            Lou Brock  7823 10332 3023  47  46 114 307
21              Ty Cobb  7754 11439 4189         292 212
22          Stan Musial  7744 10972 3630  35  53 243  71
23        Albert Pujols  7706 10279 3100   1 108 377  41
24         George Brett  7673 10349 3154  26 120 235  97
25       Reggie Jackson  7659  9864 2584  13  68 183 115
26         Andre Dawson  7621  9927 2774  24 118 217 109
27            Al Kaline  7594 10116 3007  45 104 271  65
28       Frank Robinson  7529 10006 2943  17 102 270  77
29          Ozzie Smith  7528  9396 2460 214  63 167 148
30          Rusty Staub  7509  9720 2716  56 119 297  33
31        Harold Baines  7482  9908 2866   9  99 298  34
32           Tony Perez  7462  9778 2732   9 106 268  33
33       Carlos Beltran  7423  9768 2725  18 110 203  49
34      Ken Griffey Jr.  7398  9801 2781   8 102 199  69
35        Eddie Collins  7341  9949 3315         512 195
36          Barry Bonds  7313  9847 2935   4  91 165 141
37          Vada Pinson  7304  9645 2757  52  78 164 122
38         Johnny Damon  7291  9736 2769  57  71  93 103
39         Steve Finley  7285  9397 2548  91  75 152 118
40         Honus Wagner  7266 10439 3420         221  26
41          Ernie Banks  7261  9421 2583  45  96 229  53
42       Ivan Rodriguez  7256  9592 2844  31  76 337  64
43        Jimmy Rollins  7175  9294 2455  42  53 136 105
44           Joe Morgan  7174  9277 2517  51  96 105 162
45        Ichiro Suzuki  7152  9934 3089  50  48  92 117
46         Tris Speaker  7147 10195 3514         309 157
47         Bill Buckner  7146  9397 2715  47  97 247  73
48          Gary Gaetti  7108  8951 2280  32 104 236  65
49            Max Carey  7097  9363 2665         290 109
50        Graig Nettles  7096  8986 2225  12  90 197  36
51           Nellie Fox  7080  9232 2663 208  48 175  80
52        Darrell Evans  7075  8973 2223  34  90 133  68
53          Dave Parker  7055  9358 2712   1  86 209 113
54         Willie Davis  7051  9174 2561  83  96 128 131
55      Bert Campaneris  6999  8684 2249 199  60 106 199
56       Gary Sheffield  6987  9217 2689   9 111 235 104
57        Luis Gonzalez  6973  9157 2591  10  98 212  87
58       Billy Williams  6969  9350 2711   8  73 200  49
59         Dwight Evans  6965  8996 2446  52  77 227  59
60           Buddy Bell  6955  8995 2514  60  80 255  79
61      Dave Concepcion  6932  8723 2326  74  86 266 109
62       Roberto Alomar  6914  9073 2724 148  97 206 114
63            Cap Anson  6902 10281 3435      34   6  16
64         Sam Crawford  6893  9570 2961         241  43
65     Roberto Clemente  6877  9454 3000  36  66 275  46
66            Rod Carew  6857  9315 3053 128  64 216 187
67         Torii Hunter  6843  8857 2452   6  71 262  99
68           Sammy Sosa  6809  8813 2408  17  78 202 107
69           Doc Cramer  6787  9140 2705     180  99  73
70              Mel Ott  6787  9456 2876     109  82  16
71         Jake Beckley  6780  9551 2938             167
72         Carlton Fisk  6767  8756 2356  26  79 204  58
73          Bill Dahlen  6740  9036 2461             165
74          Chili Davis  6737  8673 2380  20  94 232  98
75            Al Oliver  6736  9049 2743  17  95 254  64
76       Tommy Corcoran  6722  8824 2259             157
77         Harry Hooper  6707  8785 2466         247 141
78         Steve Garvey  6672  8835 2599  33  90 251  62
79           Tim Raines  6670  8872 2605  39  76 142 146
80           Tony Gwynn  6661  9288 3141  45  85 259 125
81        Chipper Jones  6657  8984 2726   3  97 253  46
82           Larry Bowa  6647  8418 2191 151  43 121 105
83          Ted Simmons  6639  8680 2472  11 100 287  33
84             Sam Rice  6638  9269 2987         213 143
85           Paul Waner  6614  9459 3152     174 127   6
86         Julio Franco  6609  8677 2586  19  80 312 107
87        Mickey Vernon  6608  8731 2495  80  19 183  90
88         Fred McGriff  6604  8757 2490   2  71 226  38
89         Lou Whitaker  6599  8570 2369  89  91 143  75
90           Nap Lajoie  6594  9590 3243         221  26
91           Lave Cross  6593  9084 2651             160
92       Frankie Frisch  6590  9112 2880     229  55  74
93           Wade Boggs  6566  9180 3010  29  96 236  35
94         George Davis  6564  9045 2665             184
95           Joe Carter  6551  8422 2184  10 105 132  66
96           Don Baylor  6510  8198 2135  16 115 196 120
97          David Ortiz  6507  8640 2472   2  92 236   9
98        Bobby Wallace  6492  8618 2309         173  10
99         Mike Schmidt  6490  8352 2234  16 108 156  92
100       Eddie Mathews  6478  8537 2315  36  58 123  39


Provided by Baseball-Reference.com: View Play Index Tool Used
Generated 4/28/2019.

Maybe Harold Baines should point to his appearance at #31 on this list as support for his HOF status. :-)
   30. SandyRiver Posted: April 29, 2019 at 08:42 AM (#5836244)
For Single Seasons, From 1871 to 2019, During last season , Hall Of Fame Members (as mlb players), Played at least 0 games at C, 1B, 2B, 3B, SS, LF, CF, RF, DH or PHR, sorted by smallest WAR Position Players

More trivia - If/when David Ortiz gets enshrined, he'll be at the bottom of that list (assuming BBRef numbers, which give him 5.2 for his final season.)
   31. Tom Nawrocki Posted: April 29, 2019 at 08:52 AM (#5836247)
Mickey Mantle is 56th on the all-time RBI list, because his managers put out machines ahead of him in the lineup. Mantle was a better player than at least 40 of those ahead of him on the RBI list.


So what? Are statistics only useful if they tell us which players were better than other players?

Willie Mays is 140th on the all-time career OBP list, behind people like Earl Torgeson and Dave Magadan. That doesn't mean we should ignore OBP.
   32. Eric J can SABER all he wants to Posted: April 29, 2019 at 09:11 AM (#5836255)
Mickey Mantle is 56th on the all-time RBI list, because his managers put out machines ahead of him in the lineup. Mantle was a better player than at least 40 of those ahead of him on the RBI list.

Mantle was also "only" 90th in plate appearances, and he was 35th in strikeouts (which don't drive in runs) and 8th in walks (which, while obviously valuable, also don't usually drive in runs). His relatively low standing in RBI is partly due to the type of production he provided (and also, of course, partly due to his lineup placement).
   33. PreservedFish Posted: April 29, 2019 at 09:13 AM (#5836257)
Guys, we settled the RBI thing like 3 decades ago.
   34. Itchy Row Posted: April 29, 2019 at 10:23 AM (#5836281)
Guys, we settled the RBI thing like 3 decades ago.
According to MLB, the first 5 decades of RBI things don't count. It won't be settled for another 20 years.
   35. bobm Posted: April 29, 2019 at 12:02 PM (#5836342)
OK, so it wasn't an "official" stat, but it's not like we can't count them. They are recorded as a factual event. It's not like we are guessing here and there, the records are spot on, they should be included.

Like many things in life, it is not so black and white as it may seem at first.

BB REF: Complicated History of RBI

[...] And even then, Rule 86, Section 8 was remarkably vague from 1920-30, instructing official scorers only that:

"The summary shall contain: The number of runs batted in by each batsman."

That left plenty of room for interpretation of the scoring rule. In the absence of a strict definition, official scorers across the league were inconsistent in what they considered an RBI. This inconsistency polluted numbers for a decade, despite the fact that the statistic was finally "official."

It wasn't until 1931, when Rule 70, Section 13 made the definition more explicit, that a uniform policy for counting RBI existed:

"Runs Batted In are runs scored on safe hits (including home runs), sacrifice hits, outfield put-outs, infield put-outs, and when the run is forced over by reason of the batsman becoming a base-runner. With less than two outs, if an error is made on a play on which a runner from third would ordinarily score, credit the batsman with a Run Batted In."

While this definition has seen some tweaks over time, for the first time official scorers had a clear definition of what should count as an RBI (though tabulation errors were still an issue in a pre-computerized era).

With RBI not tracked by official scorers, where do the pre-1920 RBI numbers come from? Here is a breakdown of the history of various RBI sources.

1920-Present: RBI tracked by official scorers and tabulated by the official statistician (please note that official does not mean that these numbers are without error)
1907-1919: Unofficial compilations by Ernie Lanigan
1876-1890: Unofficial compilations by John Tattersall
1891-1919: Unofficial compilations by David Neft

These RBI numbers have been used in various encyclopedias over the years and have served as the basis for further research done by SABR members. This research, where 5-7 newspaper accounts are looked at for each game in order to deduce RBI, often proves earlier reconstructions (and official totals) wrong. This leads to the volatile nature of early RBI numbers. A well-detailed account of this process by SABR's Herm Krabbenhoft can be found here, showing how he meticulously worked through Ruth's career RBI totals.

These thoroughly researched corrections eventually make their way to Baseball-Reference via Pete Palmer's data after they have been sufficiently vetted, which is why you will see discrepancies between our numbers and what you see in some other places. We have full confidence that when such alterations are made, that we are putting forward the best possible data generated by countless hours of expert research.


Per his SABR bio:

[Ernie Lanigan's] big gift to the field of baseball statistics is the important Runs Batted In (RBI) column of today. He and his New York Press sports editor, Jim Price, used to enter "Runs Batted In", and "base-runners thrown out by catcher" in the lower part of the Press box-scores of New York teams. They appeared in no other big city newspapers. Eventually, Lanigan induced John Heydler, then secretary of the National League, to include these figures in his official averages. Later, they were taken up by the Associated Press in their nation-wide coverage of big league games.
   36. Eric J can SABER all he wants to Posted: April 29, 2019 at 12:14 PM (#5836349)
OK, so it wasn't an "official" stat, but it's not like we can't count them. They are recorded as a factual event. It's not like we are guessing here and there, the records are spot on, they should be included.

Like many things in life, it is not so black and white as it may seem at first.


This is true for any statistic to some extent, though. I've been looking through some deadball era boxscores on B-R, and the assignment of wins and losses often bears no resemblance to the modern rulings at all. You'll see starters given a win despite (a) not pitching 5 innings, and (b) the game being tied again after they were relieved (with the reliever who pitched the last 6.2 innings being given a save on B-R despite having blown the lead). Or pitchers given losses in extra inning games despite not having pitched in the last inning of the game. It is genuinely distracting. I would be quite curious to see the results of an effort to go through the old boxscores and reconstruct W/L records based on the modern interpretation.

Edit: Here's one. According to the box score, Lefty Williams was removed after the fourth with a 3-1 lead, which was then blown by Joe Benz and Reb Russell. But Williams gets the loss.
   37. Pat Rapper's Delight (as quoted on MLB Network) Posted: April 29, 2019 at 12:29 PM (#5836357)
leadoff man Bobby Richardson, 1961-66

704 PA, 67 OPS+
754 PA, 101 OPS+
668 PA, 76 OPS+
728 PA, 73 OPS+
713 PA, 74 OPS+
648 PA, 79 OPS+

Outs Made: 1st, 1st, 2nd, 1st, 1st, 5th (one out shy of leading the AL for 5 consecutive years)

Bobby is the only man with 4 of the 30 highest out totals in MLB history


I believe it was in one of the Abstracts where Bill James noted that Bobby Richardson, who played in all 162 games of the 1961 season -- usually leading off in front of Mickey Mantle and Roger Maris, who combined for 115 home runs -- scored only 80 runs.
   38. Don August(us) Cesar Geronimo Berroa Posted: April 29, 2019 at 12:54 PM (#5836367)
Honus Wagner's career batting line on mlb.com includes 1732 rbi, but, his official total per mlb is 0? That is really stupid.
   39. What did Billy Ripken have against ElRoy Face? Posted: April 29, 2019 at 12:58 PM (#5836370)
And here we are saying that Harold Baines is a bad HOF choice. Honus Wagner had ZERO RBI!!!!
   40. Ithaca2323 Posted: April 29, 2019 at 01:12 PM (#5836378)
The tricky thing with Pujols is that he's hanging on and shooting up some pretty significant spots on leaderboards, and passing iconic milestones. So the fact that his WAR is terrible for all the reasons is probably irrelevant to him. (It shouldn't be for the Angels, but that ship has clearly sailed)

So his disastrous 2017, for him, probably wasn't a disaster, because he had 143 hits, 23 HR, and 101 RBI, which is sort of a big deal when you enter the year with 2,825, 581, and 1,817.

Now, he's going for 2,000 RBI and Mays' HR total. He probably still thinks, if he can play everyday, that he's got a shot at the RBI record and 700 HRs. I don't blame him for going for them if the Angels are content to give him the ABs. His legacy is secure.
   41. Steve Balboni's Personal Trainer Posted: April 29, 2019 at 01:57 PM (#5836402)
He's still got 2 years/$59 million left after this year, and as long as he wants to play, he'll probably be on the roster.

He's exactly 300 RBI from record, held by Aaron - he's not getting that. But he'll get to 2,000 with three more, and he's 89 from tying ARod for 3rd all-time.

He's at 637 HRs - needs 23 to catch Mays,and needs 59 to catch ARod for 4th all-time. That seems like the upper limit of what we could do by the end of his contract.

He's at 3102 hits - this is one where he actually could move up the leader board pretty quickly if he limps around for another 2+ seasons. He's 23rd right now, but only 82 hits from 15th place. To get into the top 10, he needs 217 hits to tie Molitor. He's average a little less than a hit per game ever since he truly hit the wall in 2017.

Two last things:
1) Miguel Cabrera was lining up to be the next big guy to end up in the top 10 in all the hitting categories, inner circle HOFer, etc. He'll still end up as a first-ballot guy, but he is really limping into the counting numbers now.
2) Every decade or two there's a guy who I end up irrationally rooting for to get to 3,000 hits because it would be such an unlikely accomplishment. I can't say that any of these players have ended up getting to 3,000, because it turns out that there's something about it that requires you to be just a little too good for too long to half-ass your way into 3,000. Baines, Damon, Al Oliver, etc., were all really good players...but run out of gas before 3,000.

Well, my new guy is Nick Markakis. His career high in hits is 191, and nobody thinks of him as a Hall of Famer (because he's not), but...he is incredibly durable, has never had a fatal wipeout season, and appears to be in a really good situation in Atlanta, where he doesn't ask for top dollar, he likes it, the fan base loves him, and he is playing the best he has in probably eight years. He's at 2,269 hits in his age 35 season, having a great year thus far. He'll probably need a little under 600 hits after this season, or four ok years. He probably won't get it, but it'll be fun to see how close he can come before the Damon/Oliver/Baines thing takes him out...
   42. Eric J can SABER all he wants to Posted: April 29, 2019 at 02:05 PM (#5836409)
Well, my new guy is Nick Markakis. His career high in hits is 191, and nobody thinks of him as a Hall of Famer (because he's not)

We used to think that nobody thought of Baines as a Hall of Famer either...
   43. Misirlou gave her his Vincent to ride Posted: April 29, 2019 at 02:34 PM (#5836420)
Well, my new guy is Nick Markakis. His career high in hits is 191, and nobody thinks of him as a Hall of Famer (because he's not), but...he is incredibly durable, has never had a fatal wipeout season,


keep an eye on Elvis Andrus. He missed a bunch of time last year, but prior to that he was incredibly durable, and averaged 162 hits per season from hiss rookie year through 2017. Barring another injury, he will finish his age 30 season with over 1700 hits, over 150 more than Markakis at the same age.
   44. Steve Parris, Je t'aime Posted: April 29, 2019 at 02:41 PM (#5836421)
Well, my new guy is Nick Markakis. His career high in hits is 191

Which is also the career high for Elvis Andrus. His next highest is 180, and his third-highest is 168.

Andrus is 30 and a few hits away from 1,600. He started early (145 games as a 20 year old) and, until last year, was pretty durable. If he finished this year with 1,700 hits, getting the other 1,300 for the rest of his career wouldn't be crazy, even if he's never been a great hitter. Well at least not until this year - he's currently hitting 365 with power.

Then again, Edgar Renteria finished his age-30 season with 1,934 hits. He didn't make it to 2,400.

edit: yeah, coke to Misirlou.
   45. Hank Gillette Posted: April 29, 2019 at 02:48 PM (#5836432)
leadoff man Bobby Richardson, 1961-66

704 PA, 67 OPS+
754 PA, 101 OPS+
668 PA, 76 OPS+
728 PA, 73 OPS+
713 PA, 74 OPS+
648 PA, 79 OPS+


The Yankees

Although Tony Kubek, who usually batted second in those years, wasn’t much better than Richardson.

Back then, I thought those guys were stars.
   46. Walt Davis Posted: April 29, 2019 at 04:42 PM (#5836471)
Yeah, Miggy is off to a very slow start this year. Hits and walks are OK, ISO is just 081 with 1 HR in 113 PA.

On the Mantle thing ... look at Barry Bonds. With a runner on 2nd and 1st open (including -23), Bonds walked 665 times in 1475 PA -- nearly 50% of the time. 481 of those BB were explicitly intentional and we can guess a good number of the rest were "give him nothing to hit" ... and I'd wager a guess that a large proportion of the time he was pitched to was after the game was pretty much out of reach. That was a total of about 1700 runners on base and the bat was taken out of his hands at least 35% of the time.

Mantle was somewhat similar. He had only 976 such PA with 296 BB, 129 intentional. With -23, he was intentionally walked 1/3 of the time.

Pujols is more Mantle than Bonds with 1353 PA and 365 BB, 241 intentional. Similarly at -23, intentionally walked a bit under 1/3 of the time. I'll also note that Pujols climbing up these boards despite these sub-par seasons (in contrast to many of the other greats) is also evidence of how much he raked, even compared to some of the greats, when he was younger. Jimmie Foxx with 6 years of Joe Carter tacked on at the end.
   47. bobm Posted: April 29, 2019 at 07:26 PM (#5836521)
With a runner on 2nd and 1st open (including -23), Bonds walked 665 times in 1475 PA -- nearly 50% of the time. 481 of those BB were explicitly intentional and we can guess a good number of the rest were "give him nothing to hit"

Count
3-0 487
3-2 74
3-1 66
??? 38

... and I'd wager a guess that a large proportion of the time he was pitched to was after the game was pretty much out of reach.

Barry Bonds: 790 At Bats in 1986-2007, With Runners on -2- or With Runners on -23

RelScore
+4..  75
+3    47
+2    75
+1    96
Tied 220
-1    89
-2    66
-3    47
-4..  75
 
Ahd. 293
Beh. 277

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