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Wednesday, January 13, 2021

MLB suspends political donations after DC riot

Major League Baseball is suspending all political contributions in the wake of last week’s invasion of the U.S. Capitol by a mob loyal to President Donald Trump, joining a wave of major corporations rethinking their efforts to lobby Washington.

“In light of the unprecedented events last week at the U.S. Capitol, MLB is suspending contributions from its Political Action Committee pending a review of our political contribution policy going forward,” the league said in a statement to The Associated Press on Wednesday.

Following the insurrection last week by Trump supporters while Congress attempted to certify the results of the presidential election, many companies have said they will avoid making donations to members of the House and Senate who voted to overturn President-elect Joe Biden’s victory over Trump. Others, like MLB, have postponed political giving to both political parties altogether.

RoyalsRetro (AG#1F) Posted: January 13, 2021 at 03:28 PM | 136 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
  Tags: political

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   1. Lowry Seasoning Salt Posted: January 13, 2021 at 06:12 PM (#5999596)
This is why I disregard any comment anywhere about how baseball is entertainment and it's all about winning. No. When the branding that people follow has an organizing body with a political action committee, it's nothing more than a business, a money-making entity willing to spend money on lobbyists to insure preferred business conditions remain or are established. The business may be entertainment, and it may be more profitable to win, but those are secondary and I think believing otherwise is, at best, naive. Here' the fans' money, directly lining the pockets of politicians.

Revenue sharing, indeed.
   2. JRVJ Posted: January 13, 2021 at 07:21 PM (#5999618)
It wasn't a riot.
   3. The Duke Posted: January 13, 2021 at 10:05 PM (#5999644)
If everyone would suspend political contributions to both parties for four years - all the craziness of the last year would be worth it.
   4. MY PAIN IS NOT A HOLIDAY (CoB). Posted: January 13, 2021 at 11:11 PM (#5999651)
The Aristocrats!!!
   5. Joyful Calculus Instructor Posted: January 14, 2021 at 01:23 AM (#5999656)
[2] A riot truther now? Are you claiming that all that footage of Trump supporters breaking windows and fighting cops is showing something that never happened?
   6. What did Billy Ripken have against ElRoy Face? Posted: January 14, 2021 at 02:37 AM (#5999660)
Yes, both sides should be dealt with equally in this. Way to take a stand, MLB.
   7. Gonfalon Bubble Posted: January 14, 2021 at 05:34 AM (#5999662)
The Cincinnati Reds deserve half of the blame for the 1919 World Series.
   8. Adam Starblind Posted: January 14, 2021 at 07:20 AM (#5999665)
It wasn't a riot.


It was a misunderstanding.
   9. Starring Bradley Scotchman as RMc Posted: January 14, 2021 at 08:03 AM (#5999668)
It wasn't a riot.

Sure it was. All rioters should be arrested and jailed. (See what I did there?)
   10. Zonk Opposes Trial by Combat Posted: January 14, 2021 at 08:33 AM (#5999673)
Sure it was. All rioters should be arrested and jailed. (See what I did there?)


Yes, you're either agreeing with all the leftists who commented on events over the past summer, or, alternately - you are suggesting that everyone who surrounded the Capitol, whether they breached barricades or not, unlawfully entered the Capitol or not, should be arrested... any of them who remained after 6 PM were certainly breaking curfew -- something 1000s of people were arrested for this past summer.

Personally, I find the latter to be untenable so I hope it's your way of looking for unity.
   11. Adam Starblind Posted: January 14, 2021 at 08:51 AM (#5999674)
Yes, you're either agreeing with all the leftists who commented on events over the past summer, or, alternately - you are suggesting that everyone who surrounded the Capitol, whether they breached barricades or not, unlawfully entered the Capitol or not, should be arrested... any of them who remained after 6 PM were certainly breaking curfew -- something 1000s of people were arrested for this past summer.


I think it's fair to assume that by "rioter" RMc meant someone who, you know, broke the law.
   12. bookbook Posted: January 14, 2021 at 08:59 AM (#5999677)
It wasn’t a riot. It was an insurrection. It was an attempted coup.

MLB should grow a pair and suspend contributions only for the 150 or so who voted to overturn/undermine the election by objecting to the electors after the attack.
   13. Ron J Posted: January 14, 2021 at 09:13 AM (#5999680)
#12 It's a common stand among the larger businesses.
   14. Zonk Opposes Trial by Combat Posted: January 14, 2021 at 09:18 AM (#5999681)
I think it's fair to assume that by "rioter" RMc meant someone who, you know, broke the law.


Is it?

Breaking curfew and "failure to obey a lawful order" constitute breaking the law - and I can only best speak to events in Chicago, but more than 95% of the arrests this past summer were for one or both of those crimes rather than breaking into buildings, destroying property, or assault.

As a universal principle, I'm opposed to using such methods... That's not to say there doesn't exist a need to disperse a protest when elements of it/elements using it have gotten violent and are threatening control of the situation.

However, my general principle stands - we arrest too much, we overcharge, and responses are too often heavy-handed and over-militarized.

Now, sure - the response last week was lacking... The answer is somewhere in the middle between BLM protests and the failure of 1/6.

Not suggesting I have the perfect answer or that it's easy... just that... well... here we are.
   15. bookbook Posted: January 14, 2021 at 09:19 AM (#5999682)
#13. Sure. But it’s a cop out.
   16. Starring Bradley Scotchman as RMc Posted: January 14, 2021 at 09:25 AM (#5999684)
I think it's fair to assume that by "rioter" RMc meant someone who, you know, broke the law.

Yeah, let's go with that.

And maybe a more transparent election system would've prevented all this nonsense...?
   17. Lassus Posted: January 14, 2021 at 09:31 AM (#5999686)
Heh. You rubes.
   18. Zonk Opposes Trial by Combat Posted: January 14, 2021 at 09:32 AM (#5999687)
And maybe a more transparent election system would've prevented all this nonsense...?


Better would be remedial courses for people who claim to care but are obviously too addled or too wrapped up in their delusions to bother looking.
   19. Dog on the sidewalk has an ugly bracelet Posted: January 14, 2021 at 09:35 AM (#5999688)
I would've assumed 16 was a joke if not for who said it.
   20. Zonk Opposes Trial by Combat Posted: January 14, 2021 at 09:40 AM (#5999689)
Given recent events and the egg lots of people are wearing, it would be a good idea to look back further and consider that perhaps the problem isn't "lack of transparency" but rather, that if a conspiracy theory humping lunatic of a Dear Leader insists that it is impossible for him to lose an election except by cheating, lots of poor, deluded souls will carry forward with some manner of believing he MUST be correct.

   21. Howie Menckel Posted: January 14, 2021 at 10:06 AM (#5999693)
And maybe a more transparent election system would've prevented all this nonsense...?

that strikes me as a massive overbid.

one data point I would agree with is that having any Senatorial candidate have a full 3-point lead in an election with 88 percent of votes recorded as of 11 pm ET - only to have that candidate (accurately) lose the race - is something worth addressing.

we had decades of Election Night TV coverage of the sort being "the votes are not yet in over in Fumbuck County or Urban City, but it's not going to be enough to stem the tide." CNN even dabbled in this in the Georgia races, although anyone with a decent Twitter account knew what was coming.

the fact that everyone knew just how many votes were needed in certain late-reporting precincts for each candidate - and that such votes arrived, by just enough, for the trailing candidate - is, for once, something of a bipartisan concern. emotionally-invested voters inevitably are liable to believe that the game was rigged when things play out that way. there are many issues specifically peculiar to Trumpsters (and the insurrection wasn't about Georgia, but about Trump), but that isn't one of them. call it a matter of optics.

non-character-assassination responses welcomed.
   22. Mellow Mouse, Benevolent Space Tyrant Posted: January 14, 2021 at 10:14 AM (#5999698)
The fact that the Trump side only contests states Trump lost, only after he lost, and doesn't contest any of the other office elections that took place on the exact same ballots of the Trump election they are contesting tells you everything you need to know.

There was plenty of time before the election to fight over the rules. Rules were put in place by officials from both parties. But they are not interested in fair elections. They are not interested in transparent elections. They don't think there was fraud enough to change the results.

If they were not focused like lasers on only Trump, only on states Trump lost before it was known he lost, well then their concerns could be looked on as good faith. But obviously, the concerns are not put forth in good faith.

There are zero reasons to treat them as good faith concerns.
   23. Jose Needs an Absurd Ukulele Concert Posted: January 14, 2021 at 10:19 AM (#5999701)
21 - I think this year was a bit challenging for the networks and news organizations because of the way the votes were counted. You had a significant difference in HOW people voted that was largely split by party and some places (e.g. Pennsylvania) had very different rules for how those votes were counted.

I think you are right that this was about optics. If you look at Pennsylvania the story itself is pretty simple. A state projected to be very close was in fact very close and the difference was largely based on turnout. Unfortunately the way it was counted almost came down to "we are going to count Trump votes first and Biden votes second" which can very easily be seen as a bit fishy even though it isn't, at all.

In sporting terms I'd compare it to cricket. For years elections have been playing baseball, one team bats then the other team bats and they alternate for nine innings. This year's elections were more like cricket where one team bats, then the other team bats and that's that. The cricket method looks weird if you aren't used to it but in the end both teams got the same number of opportunities.

tl;dr I agree that the perception this year wasn't ideal but of course when one candidate is screaming for four years that he can only lose if it's rigged well...

Also: You're a poopy head (it's the internet and I felt compelled to engage in character assassination.

Also Also: "Assassination" has the word "ass" in it.

Also Also Also: Twice.
   24. JRVJ Posted: January 14, 2021 at 10:39 AM (#5999705)
5, it wasn't a riot.

It was half an insurrection, half a coup d'etat.

Being Panamanian and almost 50, I'm pretty sure I've seen more Coups than you guys (Macías 1988, Giroldi 89, Herrera Hassán 1990). We've been a very solidly democratic country for 30 years, but once you've seen a bunch of coups, you know what you're seeing.
   25. Zonk Opposes Trial by Combat Posted: January 14, 2021 at 10:44 AM (#5999707)
Sigh.

First, the number of voters in a precinct varies wildly. It varies wildly across states, it varies wildly within states. The 10 people voting in Dixville Notch get no more - and no less - right to have their votes counted as the 20-30X that number who each vote in each of the 40 precincts in the 46th of 50 wards in Chicago. So first, unless you're using the NYT needle and estimates of votes thought to be remaining - what you see on television is NOT the percent of votes counted, it is the percent of PRECINCTS fully reported. I really do not know how it can be "explained" by anything other than better conceptual understanding of math and corollaries like population density, ratios, proportions, and the like.

Second, I'd suggest taking it up with the legislatures who stubbornly refused to do things like allow pre-validation, pre-tabulation, etc of EVs. Personally? I think the reasoning employed was faulty, partisan, and aligned with the pre-election statements of the top of the ticket... not that every nominally blue legislature covered itself in glory either (see New York).

But ultimately?

Folks want clarity? Prepare to send those urban hellholes more money. Or, perhaps more accurately at both the state and federal level in virtually all such urban hellholes - simply let them keep a greater proportion of the money the citizens and entities thereof contribute to state and federal budgets.
   26. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: January 14, 2021 at 11:51 AM (#5999723)
5, it wasn't a riot.

It was half an insurrection, half a coup d'etat.

Being Panamanian and almost 50, I'm pretty sure I've seen more Coups than you guys (Macías 1988, Giroldi 89, Herrera Hassán 1990). We've been a very solidly democratic country for 30 years, but once you've seen a bunch of coups, you know what you're seeing.


That's absolutely silly. 99% of the crowd had no idea anyone was going to try and break into the Capitol, and had no interest in joining. The most violent rioters didn't even bring rifles, which are freely available in the United States. Trump for all his bad behavior, didn't try to deploy any military or para-military forces to seize power.

Insurrections and coup d'etats involve weapons and troops. This had none of the latter, and very few of the former.
   27. JRVJ Posted: January 14, 2021 at 11:53 AM (#5999724)
26, you are invited to your opinion.

Which I don't share
   28. Bring Me the Head of Alfredo Griffin (Vlad) Posted: January 14, 2021 at 12:14 PM (#5999731)
And maybe a more transparent election system would've prevented all this nonsense...?


I live in Pennsylvania, and it's hard to know how the election system could've possibly been any more transparent than it was. Philadelphia had a livestream up where you could watch people processing and counting the mail-in ballots, for ####'s sake. I watched it for a while, just in the interest of being informed, and it was really boring!

My county was Allegheny, and while they didn't go quite that far, there were local observers from both parties in the room at all times. Seeing people try and act like there was some kind of skulduggery is maddening. Just one bad-faith argument after another. The mail-in ballots leaned heavily Democratic because not unnecessarily going out in public during a pandemic has become, for some godforsaken reason, a partisan issue, and the mail-in ballots were mostly counted after the in-person votes because the Republicans in the state legislature specifically prohibited the election officials from doing any early counting. Keerist.
   29. Mellow Mouse, Benevolent Space Tyrant Posted: January 14, 2021 at 12:16 PM (#5999733)
Seeing people try and act like there was some kind of skulduggery is maddening. Just one bad-faith argument after another.


DING! We have a winner.
   30. SoSH U at work Posted: January 14, 2021 at 12:20 PM (#5999734)
The mail-in ballots leaned heavily Democratic because not unnecessarily going out in public during a pandemic has become, for some godforsaken reason, a partisan issue


Also because the president spent three months telling his supporters that mail-in voting was for cheating cheaters, except when he did it.

   31. Zonk Opposes Trial by Combat Posted: January 14, 2021 at 12:41 PM (#5999740)
That's absolutely silly. 99% of the crowd had no idea anyone was going to try and break into the Capitol, and had no interest in joining. The most violent rioters didn't even bring rifles, which are freely available in the United States. Trump for all his bad behavior, didn't try to deploy any military or para-military forces to seize power.


Given the increasingly ugly details coming out -- I think you would be best served withholding judgment on precisely what went down.

A useful parallel on methodology of limited value is kristallnacht... The SA and SS were given specific instructions regarding participation (don't do it in uniform) and guidelines regarding that which should be allowed by the Nazi-alleged "organic mobs" and that which went too far. All was done to provide a veneer of acquitting the regime of active participation, encouragement, and blessing; there was still the need to pretend to the world and potential skeptics of the regime "Oh, we certainly don't agree with rioting!" while simultaneously pursuing the obvious ends.

In this case, why was Rudy -- and Trump himself -- still calling Senators AFTER the riot, specifically mentioning congress re-convening at 8 PM -- to stall the vote counting? Ayanna Pressley's staff says that office panic buttons were removed. Mikie Sherrill, far from backing off her allegations, now has 30 co-signers demanding investigations regarding tours given on 1/5. That's beyond the readily available rhetoric from people like Mo Brooks, Madison Cawthorne, Lauren Boebert, Marjorie Taylor-Greene, Rudy Guiliani, Barry Moore, Paul Gosar - and Trump himself - in the very hours leading up to the clown hall putsch.

In a couple weeks, the control of the committees in both chambers of Congress will be handed over to those demanding answers. And the executive branch agencies with germane information - DOJ, DHS, et al - will be cleansed of the bottom of the barrel Acting Actor of the Acting Deputy Actors who are either, at best, trying not to get to fired in a huff because they do have their limits (if not worse). The head of the executive branch will also be amenable to allowing folks to testify and release information than stonewalling.

Unless you look good in egg, this is a good time to await more information.
   32. Starring Bradley Scotchman as RMc Posted: January 14, 2021 at 05:46 PM (#5999802)
the fact that everyone knew just how many votes were needed in certain late-reporting precincts for each candidate - and that such votes arrived, by just enough, for the trailing candidate - is, for once, something of a bipartisan concern.


You'd think, but it's a difficult thing to even acknowledge, let alone actually do something about. Something like 40% of the country believes the presidential election was stolen; now, of course, you can get that many people to believe almost anything (don't about that many people still believe 9/11 was an inside job?), but, hey, that's a lot of people. I mean, 40% of the country didn't believe any other election was stolen, not even 2016's (and that one was won by Donald Trump, ferchrissakes!) I don't know if such a thing happened in 2020, but I wish to hell somebody had taken a real, nonpartisan look at it, and that the news media had actually covered it. Instead, we get self-righteous statements about not only was their ABSOLUTELY NO fraud, but anybody who even thinks there MIGHT have been is a lying dog-faced pony soldier who should fitted for a tin-foil cap, pronto.

Basically, the other 60% fall into these categories:
(1) "It's impossible to steal a presidential election in this modern age, with cameras everywhere and computers and stuff."
(1a) "I don't want to believe such a thing is possible. What is this, Venezuela?"
(2) "Yeah, so? Got Orange Man outa there, didn't we? That's a good thing, isn't it?" (Yes. Yes, it is. But...)

Many of my right-leaning friends insist that now that Dems control the White House, Congress, academia and the media (social and otherwise) that no Repub will ever win anything ever again, and that the country is well and truly f*cked. I tell them that things run in cycles, but...I'm not so sure they're wrong.
   33. JL72 Posted: January 14, 2021 at 06:01 PM (#5999805)
call it a matter of optics.


But all too often, it is the party that is claiming fraud that created those optics to begin with. The GOP in Pennsylvania expressly prevented the processing of mail in ballots prior to election day. So this whine about bad optics comes across as disingenuous because it smacks of politics, not a real complaint.

but I wish to hell somebody had taken a real, nonpartisan look at it, and that the news media had actually covered it.


Covered what? If Trump and his ilk are going to claim fraud, the onus is on them to provide at least a bit of evidence. That have failed to do that at every turn (and ever lawsuit). Instead, they claim Fake News and liberal media. If 40% is just going to go along with that, it is silly to pretend that some nonpartisan review will have any effect.
   34. Dog on the sidewalk has an ugly bracelet Posted: January 14, 2021 at 06:11 PM (#5999806)
They did what they could do to look into it. As far as I know, every remotely believable allegation has been checked out and rebutted. (Previous) Trump loyalists like Barr and Kemp have said there's no evidence of any significant nefariousness. What more do you want?

Every presidential election, something like 15-20% of the population comes away thinking it's been stolen. These people had always and correctly been more or less ignored. The only reason the numbers and attention paid are different this time is because POTUS has spent the past 4 years planting as much anger and crazy as possible and then exploited it after he lost.
   35. SoSH U at work Posted: January 14, 2021 at 06:16 PM (#5999807)
exploited it after he lost.


No, he exploited it before he lost. He spent several months telling his supporters the only way he could lose was if the election was rigged. Then when he lost, he said, "See, I told you."
   36. Dog on the sidewalk has an ugly bracelet Posted: January 14, 2021 at 06:25 PM (#5999810)
I was including that in the first part of the quoted sentence. Though it really started before the 2016 election, as he claimed that election was being rigged for months before and even after he won.
   37. Stevey Posted: January 14, 2021 at 06:28 PM (#5999812)
Heck, he claimed it after he won in 2016, and implemented a commission that found ... diddly poo. Trump's strategy has always been to pound the table because he cant pound the facts or the law, and get enough rmcs or howies riled up. And he's on to the next table pounding before they ever realize he never had the facts or the laws on his side.


Guys, Georgia counted their vote three times. What would it require to get you to accept without a doubt that the election was legit? The onus is on you now to demonstrate what you demand needs further investigation, and not pulling what seems like Lucy and the football.
   38. RJ in TO Posted: January 14, 2021 at 06:39 PM (#5999815)
What would it require to get you to accept without a doubt that the election was legit?
Trump having won.
   39. Captain Joe Bivens, Elderly Northeastern Jew Posted: January 14, 2021 at 07:26 PM (#5999822)
So much political debate on this site. Tsk.
   40. Mayor Blomberg Posted: January 14, 2021 at 07:33 PM (#5999826)
Apparently I'm just some random idiot who doesn't know better because I didn't find anything disconcerting or odd in the election results other than one or two quickly corrected human errors and the reticence of the Nets in calling PA and AZ. But, sure, if you spend your time watching Fox, it was a total ###########.

Want to do something more transparent? Get rid of the ####### EC. Also, election day a day off. Also, stop closing and under-supplying serving black and brown folks. Also, stop denying ex-cons -- and inmates -- the right to vote. Also, arrest and charge people in positions of responsibility for undermining trust with baseless claims of fraud.

Not a complete list, but a start.
   41. MY PAIN IS NOT A HOLIDAY (CoB). Posted: January 14, 2021 at 08:02 PM (#5999830)
Though it really started before the 2016 election, as he claimed that election was being rigged for months before and even after he won.


Christ, Trump claimed he only lost Iowa because of fraud:

“Ted Cruz didn’t win Iowa, he stole it,” Trump (@realDonaldTrump) tweeted. “That is why all of the polls were so wrong and why he got far more votes than anticipated. Bad!”

“Based on the fraud committed by Senator Ted Cruz during the Iowa caucus, either a new election should take place or Cruz results nullified,” Trump wrote.
   42. Lassus Posted: January 14, 2021 at 08:05 PM (#5999832)
You'd think, but it's a difficult thing to even acknowledge, let alone actually do something about. Something like 40% of the country believes the presidential election was stolen; now, of course, you can get that many people to believe almost anything (don't about that many people still believe 9/11 was an inside job?), but, hey, that's a lot of people. I mean, 40% of the country didn't believe any other election was stolen, not even 2016's (and that one was won by Donald Trump, ferchrissakes!) I don't know if such a thing happened in 2020, but I wish to hell somebody had taken a real, nonpartisan look at it, and that the news media had actually covered it. Instead, we get self-righteous statements about not only was their ABSOLUTELY NO fraud, but anybody who even thinks there MIGHT have been is a lying dog-faced pony soldier who should fitted for a tin-foil cap, pronto.

He has me on ignore, so someone tell him this fucking stupid, and he's not an adult for suggesting it.
   43. Dog on the sidewalk has an ugly bracelet Posted: January 14, 2021 at 08:17 PM (#5999835)
I'm enjoying this game of "Name That Baseless Trump Election Fraud Accusation."

"This election is a total sham and a travesty. We are not a democracy!"

— Donald J. Trump (@realDonaldTrump) November 7, 2012

CNN article on the various garbage he spewed in the aftermath of the 2012 election

Here's a video clip of Trump suggesting that Dems/Obama may have won in 2008 because of fraud
   44. rr doesn't talk to pawns Posted: January 14, 2021 at 09:03 PM (#5999841)
He has me on ignore, so someone tell him this ####### stupid, and he's not an adult for suggesting it.


RMc is either a simple troll, or he is a weak Q-adjacent guy deluding himself into thinking that he is a moderate conservative. Doesn't matter which. Ben Sasse and Mitt Romney, for example, say that Biden won. So does Mitch McConnell. So do state-level Republican election guys like Brad Raffensperger and Gabriel Sterling. There's no convo there among rational people.

Also, I may be wrong, but IMO the GOP is not going anywhere and may not even have a big downturn. Once Biden is inaugurated, the FOXNews machine will pivot to blaming Biden for everything (with the fraud BS as weaponized background noise) and demonizing Harris to try to flip the House back in 2022. They control the SCOTUS, and will have a reasonable chance to flip the House. The Senate is ofc 50/50. Like Trump in 2016, Biden took the EC by winning some key swing states by pretty narrow margins. Unlike Trump, he also won the popular vote largely since the Dems routinely crush the GOP in NY and CA.

There are variables--possible mini-conspiracies related to 1/6, Trump and his crew getting charged with crimes, and this is ofc very different than Watergate. But I have read a lot about that era, and people were sounding the Death Knell for the GOP then. Instead, Ford nearly beat Carter and then Reagan wiped out the Dems twice. As per some basic analysis from 538, the Dems pretty much have to be at 52% of the PV to win the EC. Not that easy.

Maybe this is a breaking point for the system, but I tend to doubt it.
   45. Mayor Blomberg Posted: January 14, 2021 at 09:15 PM (#5999843)
Once Biden is inaugurated, the FOXNews machine will pivot to blaming Biden for everything

Look how he handled covid in 2020, what kind of a president does that. We'll hear those words before too long.
   46. Howie Menckel Posted: January 14, 2021 at 09:23 PM (#5999846)
Apparently I'm just some random idiot who doesn't know better because I didn't find anything disconcerting or odd in the election results other than one or two quickly corrected human errors and the reticence of the Nets in calling PA and AZ. But, sure, if you spend your time watching Fox, it was a total ###########.

didn't Fox call AZ for Biden first? I thought that was the big Trumpsters gripe?

I didn't find anything disconcerting, either, in the election results.

but to give the most recent GA example (and there were echoes in November), if Joe Sixpack goes to bed at 11 pm and sees his guy up 3 full points with 88 pct of the precincts reporting (I carelessly said 'votes,' but that actually matches what Joe Sixpack would believe), and then he wakes up the next day and he finds out his guy lost - that's not going to go over well.

the Rs doing all sorts of pre-election shenanigans in PA and the lack of sufficient polling places in inner cities and a host of other things mentioned here - all very valid points.

but we can't even get past Step 1 - agreeing that if an average voter sees what looks like nearly-whole results, to him, and his guy seems well ahead, and then his guy loses anyway, he's going to think something's fishy. and which color of laundry said people are rooting for has precious little to do with it. yet even that gets pushback here, which seems amazing to me.

Step 2 - which I guess we we'll never get to - would be a combo of talking about how to roll out voting results to the public and finding ways to help all precincts operate in more similar fashion.

no discussion seems to escape the binary filters.
   47. Dog on the sidewalk has an ugly bracelet Posted: January 14, 2021 at 09:42 PM (#5999849)
Step 1 doesn't get pushback so much as it gets ignored. It's something that should get fixed (even though it'd be even better if people would inform themselves rather than believe the first conspiracy theory they hear), but it's not the reason that our most evil and/or stupid just assembled to fight to save their country.
   48. JJ1986 Posted: January 14, 2021 at 09:44 PM (#5999850)
Trumpees don't think the election was stolen because of how the results came in. They think it was stolen because they keep being told that it was stolen.
   49. Howie Menckel Posted: January 14, 2021 at 09:46 PM (#5999851)
It's something that should get fixed (even though it'd be even better if people would inform themselves rather than believe the first conspiracy theory they hear), but it's not the reason that our most evil and/or stupid just assembled to fight to save their country.

that's all I asked for.
   50. Joyful Calculus Instructor Posted: January 14, 2021 at 09:52 PM (#5999852)
Simple for step 2 is to do more reporting like the New York Times needle.

The New York Times model based on projections off of votes that had been counted had Ossoff projected to win by 0.7 points fairly early on when he was up by double digits. And then when a bunch of rural counties reported and Perdue went up 3, the projection had Ossoff winning by like 0.9. It was actually kind of amazing how accurate the modeling was from the get go and how consistent the votes reported ended up being with expectations.

(With that said, the NYT needle was pretty awful on November 3 when it predicted Trump winning Georgia by like 4 points based on the returns from Florida, but at least it fixed itself by the end of the night.)

   51. Mayor Blomberg Posted: January 14, 2021 at 09:57 PM (#5999854)
didn't Fox call AZ for Biden first? I thought that was the big Trumpsters gripe?

Indeed they did -- earlier than I would have, but then they sat on PA when it wasn't as close. And therein lies a tale.

But sure, end the story there, ignore everything else spewing out of that station and they're exemplary.
The explanations of vote-shifts are easily accessible to anyone who wants to be bothered to read. And the fact that the races weren't called is important to any half-way intelligent non conspiracy theorist.

The problem with low-info voters is that they're low info; the problem for democracy is that it assumes an informed (on process and basic math) electorate. We don't have one.
   52. Mayor Blomberg Posted: January 14, 2021 at 09:58 PM (#5999857)
The New York Times model based on projections off of votes that had been counted had Ossoff projected to win by 0.7 points fairly early on when he was up by double digits.

That's the liberal communist lamestream media NYT. YOu want me to believe them?
   53. Rough Carrigan Posted: January 14, 2021 at 10:10 PM (#5999860)
Whoops. Looks like a BLM guy, John Sullivan, was front and center in rushing the capitol building
https://twitter.com/amuse/status/1349865669383356419?s=21
Quick, guys, come up with excuses why you should ignore this! If not you might have to think.
   54. rr doesn't talk to pawns Posted: January 14, 2021 at 10:12 PM (#5999861)
They think it was stolen because they keep being told that it was stolen.


Sure. There is real insight in some of the other stuff being said here (excluding Menckel, whose only agenda is his self-serving bothsidesism, and is therefore 100% useless on this issue) but at the same time, the bottom line is simple: Trump as noted in 41 and 43 has a long-standing pattern of claiming that elections are rigged. Trump said before this election that the Dems would try to rig it. He said it was rigged after it was over, he said it was rigged after the lawsuits got thrown out, and he said it was rigged even when he made the weird video on the 6th with the half-ass plea to end the violence. He will say it was rigged if he releases a video on Inauguration Day, and he will say it was rigged on Newsmax when he does his first big post-presidency interview there on January 24 or so.

Nixon conceded in 1960. Gore conceded in 2000. Clinton conceded in 2016. 2020 was about many things, and there are many causes for our current problems, but this issue is largely just a Trump thing.
   55. Stevey Posted: January 14, 2021 at 10:16 PM (#5999862)
but to give the most recent GA example (and there were echoes in November), if Joe Sixpack goes to bed at 11 pm and sees his guy up 3 full points with 88 pct of the precincts reporting (I carelessly said 'votes,' but that actually matches what Joe Sixpack would believe), and then he wakes up the next day and he finds out his guy lost - that's not going to go over well.


A lack of understanding how elections work is not a lack of election transparency.

The people who didnt understand that the fbi would be able to track them down from their own damn pictures of themselves storming the Capital dont deserve getting handheld and explained to like their five every step of the way. At some point they need to show some personal responsibility.
   56. rr doesn't talk to pawns Posted: January 14, 2021 at 10:17 PM (#5999864)
https://www.politifact.com/factchecks/2021/jan/09/facebook-posts/facebook-posts-wrongly-claim-left-wing-activist-an/

   57. Astroenteritis Posted: January 14, 2021 at 10:21 PM (#5999865)
Trying to get Cro-MAGAnon man to give up the big lie is futile. On January 20, Vlad can come get his boy, we've had enough of him.
   58. Howie Menckel Posted: January 14, 2021 at 10:26 PM (#5999866)
yes, 56 shows 53 to be "Mostly False" - he did enter the Capitol, but he was filming the insurrection (and a filmmaker was filming him film it).

the only "Mostly" part is:

"PolitiFact reviewed Sullivan’s video of the mob into the Capitol and Babbitt’s shooting. It doesn’t show Sullivan clearly engaged in the violence or leading the run up to the Capitol, although it does show him animated as he spoke with police and rioters from the frontlines.

At points in the video, Sullivan can be heard telling others he was only filming and discouraging violence. At other points, he appeared to encourage what was happening. As rioters scaled a wall outside, for example, he cheered them on. "We did this s---, together," he said after the barricades came down. "This is f------ history. We’re all a part of this f------ history."

"Let’s burn this s--- down," Sullivan can be heard saying on the video before heading inside. It was not clear if the comment was directed to or heard by any specific person or people."
   59. JL72 Posted: January 15, 2021 at 09:46 AM (#5999897)
but to give the most recent GA example (and there were echoes in November), if Joe Sixpack goes to bed at 11 pm and sees his guy up 3 full points with 88 pct of the precincts reporting (I carelessly said 'votes,' but that actually matches what Joe Sixpack would believe), and then he wakes up the next day and he finds out his guy lost - that's not going to go over well.


Well then Joe Sixpack was not paying attention. I rotate through the news channels during both the Nov. election and the run off. Most all were making clear that even in the instance you give, the election is not over and why. FoxNews was doing this. John King, to give one example, does a great job walking through were the remaining votes are from, who benefits from them, and what percentages each candidate needs.

There is more than enough transparency if one is not watching one of the GOP propaganda networks. So if this is not enough, what else do you want? What more specifically should be done?
   60. McCoy Posted: January 15, 2021 at 09:52 AM (#5999900)
People who think the election was rigged thought the election was rigged before 11pm on Election day. They would have thought the election was rigged even if it played out like a normal election night.


   61. McCoy Posted: January 15, 2021 at 09:55 AM (#5999901)
The biggest component of the fishiness is if course Donald Trump. Trump didn't and direct care about the GA runoffs and consequently despite the same thing playing out in GA in January as happened in November the conspiracy theories and chatter simply aren't swirling as greatly as they did for Trump's election.
   62. Ron J Posted: January 15, 2021 at 09:56 AM (#5999902)
#59 No partial updates? On reflection that's not going to change anything. Might actually make things worse by creating a sense of a lack of transparency.

   63. Lassus Posted: January 15, 2021 at 10:43 AM (#5999910)
Quick, guys, come up with excuses why you should ignore this! If not you might have to think.

Ignore it? Fuck that, I want to concentrate on it. Tell me how you place this in the story of the event, what it proves to you?
   64. Zonk Opposes Trial by Combat Posted: January 15, 2021 at 10:44 AM (#5999911)
One important step back from this abyss is that we stop pretending bad faith arguments are good faith arguments.

   65. Mayor Blomberg Posted: January 15, 2021 at 12:25 PM (#5999934)
If You want total transparency, there's only one thing to do: film everybody proving who they are when they vote and filling out their ballots and show the ballots once completed. The whole process. And place, in this case, north of 150 MM of those images on the Internet.

Transparency has suddenly become a FOX-cool word that is useful in proportion to its meaninglessness. Assuming you do not want transparency that's actually transparent, as above, how about the people using the word say what they want and why it makes sense?

And one request, can we leave out of it the sort of stuff that surfaces, as in #53, only when one trolls the fever swamps for the reason given in #64?
   66. Starring Bradley Scotchman as RMc Posted: January 15, 2021 at 01:12 PM (#5999943)
RMc is either a simple troll, or he is a weak Q-adjacent guy deluding himself into thinking that he is a moderate conservative.

Annnnddddd this is why it's impossible to debate anything anymore. Everyone I talk to about this is either ABSOLUTELY SURE that this election was the biggest heist since the Brink's job, or ABSOLUTELY SURE that this was the cleanest election EVAR. What can you do? Why is it so hard to find a group of (reasonably) nonpartisan grown-ups to take a close look at these things? (Of course, both sides will insist that they HAVE looked at it, thankyouverymuch, and that they are ABSOLUTELY SURE...well, you get the idea.)

One important step back from this abyss is that we stop pretending bad faith arguments are good faith arguments.

Except there aren't many (or any?) good faith arguments anymore: every argument is seemingly coated in partisan special sauce. Trump supporters think the election was stolen; anti-Trumpers think it wasn't. Both sides believe they are right and that the opposing point of view is misguided at best, flat-out evil at worst. (One friend of mine put it succinctly: "There aren't two sides to this, there's only the truth, and a bunch of damn lies." Well, thanks for pointing that out.)

Problem is, I don't really fall into either of those camps. I don't like Trump and didn't vote for him, but I can't imagine a geriatric creep like Biden would be improvement, especially in the middle of a freakin' pandemic. Some of the stuff that happened on Election Night seemed a little hinky to me, but I'm no expert...so...

Yes, it's possible that the election was stolen; it's also possible that the most divisive president since Lincoln simply lost re-election, (mostly) fair and square. (Turns out you can beat somebody with nobody, if the somebody is bad enough.)

But...isn't this something fair-minded people should be looking closer at? Aren't free, fair and transparent elections intrinsic to our republic? And if there was fraud, isn't the "winning side" afraid that the "losing side" will eventually catch on and try to use the same tactics against them? Or do they believe that they'll always be in charge, so they don't have to worry about the worm turning? (Hey, guys, the GOP controlled the White House and both houses of Congress two years ago. You really think it can't happen again?)

Want to do something more transparent? Get rid of the ####### EC. Also, election day a day off. Also, stop closing and under-supplying serving black and brown folks. Also, stop denying ex-cons -- and inmates -- the right to vote. Also, arrest and charge people in positions of responsibility for undermining trust with baseless claims of fraud.

Not a complete list, but a start.


Not at all, considering every one of your solutions are left-wing talking points. How about insisting on IDs to vote, or verifying signatures on mail-in ballots, or having easily-audited voting machines, or not trying to obstruct poll-watchers? (You may insist these things are already being done, or aren't necessary, but tens of millions of people disagree with you, including me.) I especially like "arrest and charge people in positions of responsibility for undermining trust with baseless claims of fraud". (Um, who gets to decide which claims are baseless, pal? You?)

OK, I'm done with this subject. One thing I'm NOT going to do is pull the "He's not my president!" crap the Left had been screeching for four years. I'm an American, and Joe Biden will be my president, end of story.

I hope he succeeds at what is literally the toughest job on the planet. I hope he gets those vaccinations out. I hope there's not a damn constitutional crisis a year from now, when Lady Macbeth wants to whip the 25th Amendment on him, and he's not gonna wanna go. I hope that the Repubs don't immediately try to impeach him (or her) after they re-take Congress in 2023 (although I admit it would be RDF). I hope there isn't a COVID-20, -21 or -22 waiting in the wings.

But I'm not confident. At all.

EDIT: I'm RMc, and I'm glad I can't read #67.
   67. Lassus Posted: January 15, 2021 at 01:21 PM (#5999944)
Yes, it's possible that the election was stolen

Which is where you should just paying attention.


(Of course, both sides will insist that they HAVE looked at it, thankyouverymuch, and that they are ABSOLUTELY SURE...well, you get the idea.)

I take that back. You should have stopped at this BOTH SIDES equalization.
   68. Mayor Blomberg Posted: January 15, 2021 at 01:43 PM (#5999947)
Yes, it's possible that the election was stolen

That right there is transparent.
   69. Zonk Opposes Trial by Combat Posted: January 15, 2021 at 01:54 PM (#5999949)
Not being an omniscient god, I suppose it's "possible" that the lizard men from seti alpha V changed the meaning of numbers.

But, as a mere mortal, the best approximation I have of "reasonably non-partisan grown-ups" who rendered decisions are the more than 5 dozen courts, thousands of county canvas boards, secretaries of states from both parties across half a dozen states, and whatnot who chose to either dismiss nonsense suits with barely concealed GTFO, chose to certify the election results, and the like.

Time for some people - and yes, RMc, you are very much one of the some people I am specifically talking about - to acknowledge that if the dozens upon dozens of judges, the various state officials across multiple states from both parties, and the thousands upon thousands of official on county canvas boards do not constitute "(reasonably) nonpartisan grown-ups" then no such person or people exist.

No such person exists... excepting that sure, already acknowledging my lack of omniscience, I suppose I cannot say for certain that the telepathic lizard men from seti alpha V might indeed exist. Though, if they do, I tend to logically doubt they have a lot of interest in playing objective diviner of "stolen" vs "not stolen".
   70. ramifications of an exciting 57i66135 Posted: January 15, 2021 at 02:04 PM (#5999953)
saying that something is possible is very different from backing that claim with evidence and proving it beyond any reasonable doubt.

it's possible that donald trump paid russian prostitutes to pee on him* in a moscow hotel, and that vladimir putin has had video of it that he's used to extract favors from trump for the last decade.

*though it's more likely that trump didn't pay them, if we're being honest.
   71. JL72 Posted: January 15, 2021 at 02:07 PM (#5999955)
#66 - while I can respect your opinion, I still wait for some evidence of voter fraud (as opposed to some belief that it must have occurred). I (and the courts) have yet to see it.

Nor have I have seen any actual, concrete proposal on what things should be done to increase the transparency.

I do actually await either.
   72. Mayor Blomberg Posted: January 15, 2021 at 02:22 PM (#5999957)
DoJ just closed its Pennsylvania investigation due to lack of evidence what 2-3 days after its new, specially appointed USA in Georgia did the same there.
   73. Zonk Opposes Trial by Combat Posted: January 15, 2021 at 02:22 PM (#5999958)
Blomberg nails the issue with "transparency" in 65 -- unless you're suggesting the secret ballot, something legally enshrined for better than a century, be tossed aside...

There are, I suppose, some things that could be done to improve maybe not transparency, but at least standardization... but the galling irony is that people who generally oppose federal standards and fiat from DC are basically saying an awful lot of particulars almost exclusively left to states no longer be so.

Hey, I have no problem with federal controls - polling place open times, allowances for early/absentee voting, registration, etc... but I do not trust that the people now clamoring for these things (allegedly) are being honest.

Again, time to stop pretending bad faith is good faith.
   74. Howie Menckel Posted: January 15, 2021 at 02:29 PM (#5999960)
Yes, it's possible that the election was stolen

you're two months behind.

I said then that, yes, I saw nothing wrong with evidence being reviewed - and that yes, the sense that many would not, no matter what, was a bit unsettling.

but now? um, that statement is unpossible.

I didn't mind all the court filings as much as some. In a sane world, dozens of Republican-appointed judges - some even Trump-appointed - being among dozens more who found the claims to be nonsense should make us all better off.

whether you would never believe the election was stolen - or you believed it pretty strongly - all of those rulings should have led most of us to the same place.

and... ok, that has not happened.
   75. Ron J Posted: January 15, 2021 at 03:39 PM (#5999975)
#66 That's ####### nuts. Go ahead, come up with a plausible theory.


   76. JJ1986 Posted: January 15, 2021 at 03:54 PM (#5999978)
I can't imagine a geriatric creep like Biden would be improvement, especially in the middle of a freakin' pandemic
This is the nuttiest part. RMC thinks COVID response is a point in Trump's favor.
   77. Dog on the sidewalk has an ugly bracelet Posted: January 15, 2021 at 03:56 PM (#5999979)
66 is why it's impossible to debate with YOU, RMC. Multiple people, including myself, try to respond in good faith. You ignore our responses, repeat the claims that we were trying to counter, and then quote the most hostile comment in the thread as proof that there's no serious discussion to be had. I guess I learned my lesson.
   78. Never Give an Inge (Dave) Posted: January 15, 2021 at 04:09 PM (#5999982)
Some guy with a spreadsheet cross-references voter rolls with obituaries and claims "5,000 dead people voted in Georgia!!!" (or whatever state). However, people who actually have experience running elections say no, this happens every election, and when you look into these claims it's almost always someone who signed on the wrong line when they were voting, or John Smith, Jr. who lives at the same address as his father John Smith Sr. (now deceased). I don't really have a problem with these internet sleuths looking for examples of voter fraud, but they are suspiciously selective in terms of which counties they look at, and they have no interest in doing the extra 5 minutes of research to understand the simple explanations. They just assume it's fraud, make public claims to that effect, and then claim that "Trump won" even though they don't know who the alleged dead people voted for. It's just multiple layers of dishonesty stacked on top of one another, and it's deplorable that the President, other elected officials, and attorneys either believe this crap or dishonestly repeat it.

They are the political equivalent of the amateur epidemiologist "guys with a spreadsheet" who claim the COVID fatality rate is 0.1% because they don't understand that there's a lag in death reporting. (And in some cases, they're actually the same people making these claims.)
   79. Never Give an Inge (Dave) Posted: January 15, 2021 at 04:11 PM (#5999983)

RMc is the biggest crybaby troll on this site. I don't know why anyone doesn't have him on Ignore.
   80. Dog on the sidewalk has an ugly bracelet Posted: January 15, 2021 at 04:19 PM (#5999985)
95% of his commentary is not worthy of a response. But despite its many flaws, 32 seemed like an attempt to have an actual discussion, and I thought it should be encouraged. Silly me.
   81. Mayor Blomberg Posted: January 15, 2021 at 04:22 PM (#5999987)
78 - There was one woman caught on that role who signed her name Mrs John Smith, and super sleuth missed the Mrs.
My mother would have been proud of her. I remember that lesson in written address to a married woman from my childhood.
   82. Mayor Blomberg Posted: January 15, 2021 at 04:31 PM (#5999989)
the fact that everyone knew just how many votes were needed in certain late-reporting precincts for each candidate - and that such votes arrived, by just enough, for the trailing candidate - is, for once, something of a bipartisan concern.


I must disagree with this claim on two points:

1) Just enough. No, 11,789 is more than just enough, unless it's a measure like Uek's just a little bit outside.

2) People making the calls have precinct-level demographics and records from previous years' votes that, while not dispositive, are very reliable. For instance, I followed that abc 15 data guru's analysis for Arizona votes (he also tracks covid numbers for the state) and while a batch might come in +/- the overall was very consistent. It's called data analysis and statistics, and it's taught in the schools.

His most recent tweet: American Thinker issues a statement retracting all statements made about Dominion Voting Systems.
I love oxymoronic magazine titles
   83. Never Give an Inge (Dave) Posted: January 15, 2021 at 04:44 PM (#5999990)
#82 yeah, this isn't that hard. I have texts that I sent to friends and social media posts I made on election night or the next morning saying that it was almost certain that Biden was going to win PA by 50-100k votes (based on the types of votes that had yet to be counted and the percentage of each type that Biden had won so far). He ended up winning by ~80k.

Fun fact: If you go back to the early days of the so-called American Thinker archives, you can find an article titled "Get Over It" that starts as follows:

Memo to Kerry supporters, Bush haters: The election is over. Bush won! Kerry lost! Get over it!
   84. Captain Joe Bivens, Elderly Northeastern Jew Posted: January 15, 2021 at 04:54 PM (#5999994)

RMc is the biggest crybaby troll on this site. I don't know why anyone doesn't have him on Ignore.


He has me on ignore, and I don't blame him, because I'm not looking to actually engage him, just to mock him, because, whether he supports Trump or doesn't (as he claims) , he's a Dancing Monkey, in the mold of the other Dancing Monkeys.

And he's a snowflake, because he'll ignore others, who aren't nearly as bad as I am toward him. He's pathetic.
   85. The Yankee Clapper Posted: January 15, 2021 at 05:43 PM (#5999999)
Want to do something more transparent? Get rid of the ####### EC. Also, election day a day off.
State results can be transparent, so that isn’t really the issue. In the current system, those inclined to cheat only have an incentive to run the risk of doing so when their state is close enough to be within whatever margin can be overcome with invalid votes. A nationwide popular vote gives anyone who can gin up phony votes an incentive to do so, even if their own state isn’t in play.

If you make Election Day a holiday, many wouldn’t waste a day off on voting, especially those who had the flexibility of also taking Monday as part of a 4-day weekend.
   86. Zonk Opposes Trial by Combat Posted: January 15, 2021 at 06:02 PM (#6000003)
Registering and voting got a lot easier thanks to Democratic efforts that predate the pandemic.

This is called a principle.

The fact is - we saw huge turnout everywhere, from everyone. Like it or not, Donald Trump brought out a lot of wildcards.

This very much calls into question my priors about the benefits of increased turnout, but it does not affect my principle that voting should be readily available, easy, and accessible to everyone.

This is why it is called a principle.
   87. Mayor Blomberg Posted: January 15, 2021 at 06:16 PM (#6000005)
Even Bannon distances himself from the vote-fraud claims
A podcast hosted by Stephen K. Bannon, Mr. Trump’s former chief strategist, was taken down on Thursday because of an interview in which Mr. Giuliani repeated false claims about the election. During the interview, Mr. Bannon pleaded with Mr. Giuliani to move on to a new topic.
“I don’t mind being shut down for my craziness,” Mr. Bannon told Mr. Giuliani, according to Alexander Panetta, a reporter for CBC News who listened to the podcast before it was removed. “I’m not going to be shut down for yours.”
   88. Joyful Calculus Instructor Posted: January 15, 2021 at 06:19 PM (#6000006)
This very much calls into question my priors about the benefits of increased turnout, but it does not affect my principle that voting should be readily available, easy, and accessible to everyone.


Nate Cohn's analysis showed that the 2020 electorate was a few points more Republican leaning than the 2016 electorate and that this was a big factor in why the polls were so much more favorable to Biden then ended up happening. Biden was still able to win because he crushed it with swing voters. Turns out that dropping canvassing and voter registration drives ends up hurting.
   89. Howie Menckel Posted: January 15, 2021 at 06:47 PM (#6000008)
the fact that everyone knew just how many votes were needed in certain late-reporting precincts for each candidate - and that such votes arrived, by just enough, for the trailing candidate - is, for once, something of a bipartisan concern.

I must disagree with this claim on two points:

1) Just enough. No, 11,789 is more than just enough, unless it's a measure like Uek's just a little bit outside.

2) People making the calls have precinct-level demographics and records from previous years' votes that, while not dispositive, are very reliable. For instance, I followed that abc 15 data guru's analysis for Arizona votes (he also tracks covid numbers for the state) and while a batch might come in +/- the overall was very consistent. It's called data analysis and statistics, and it's taught in the schools.



83. Never Give an Inge (Dave) Posted: January 15, 2021 at 04:44 PM (#5999990)
#82 yeah, this isn't that hard.

................

I have already noted that I, too, said that I saw what was coming on Election Night(s).

but it just seems like if some posters here owned a restaurant, and you had a chalkboard listing the "Happy Hour" times near the entrance, and it's listed twice on the menu, and then inevitably someone at the next table that is seated says, "Hey, do you have a happy hour - and what times?", well, let's just I'm not convinced with the you'd go with "the customer is always right" as your fallback philosophy.

and of course that is trivial, and election results are really important. duh. so we really want the electorate to understand that "ahead by 3.0 points with 88 pct of precincts reporting" - which is what the networks were showing on screen - doesn't mean what you think it means (and it didn't). ok.

but for the majority of our fellow citizens, life is hard - and it was hard growing up as well, often with a dysfunctional family dynamic or extreme poverty, or both. struggles to get ahead. a married life as a parent, to boot, that isn't matching anyone's childhood fantasy. economic distress/ruin in the COVID era.

so "it isn't that hard" is pretty unfair, frankly.

the most jaw-dropping moment in my 20+ years on this site came last spring, when a couple of posters were thankfully very honest and said that, 'why no, I don't know a single person who has faced economic distress due to the pandemic.'

I had been stumped as to why the safety side of business shutdowns in early COVID days was so heavily favored, vs concerns over economic disruption of so many families. But if the only people whose lives are ruined by shutdowns are those you don't know, and if shutdowns are going to speed up making things safer for those you do know - well, it's pretty damn understandable which way a person would lean. that's how we human beings roll.

now I am barely resisting an urge to get into a "check your privilege" comment....
   90. Stevey Posted: January 15, 2021 at 07:06 PM (#6000011)

but for the majority of our fellow citizens, life is hard - and it was hard growing up as well, often with a dysfunctional family dynamic or extreme poverty, or both. struggles to get ahead. a married life as a parent, to boot, that isn't matching anyone's childhood fantasy. economic distress/ruin in the COVID era.

so "it isn't that hard" is pretty unfair, frankly.


Regardless of the reason for not understanding how election results are reported, thats still not a lack of election transparency. If you are ether uninterested or unable to follow the process, you dont get to claim afterwards that its worthy of storming DC.

Also you might want to become a little better informed yourself of the typical Trump voter and the people who went to DC. The arent exactly the group that is struggling to get ahead.
   91. Mayor Blomberg Posted: January 15, 2021 at 07:44 PM (#6000017)
and now that we're north of 400,000 dead how good does the gee , we shouldn't be enforcing restrictions argument look? I've never heard the instructions for calculating deaths/GDP, but I do know that Sweden wound up no better off economically than its neighbors and far worse off in terms of corpse count.
   92. Howie Menckel Posted: January 15, 2021 at 07:56 PM (#6000019)
Regardless of the reason for not understanding how election results are reported, thats still not a lack of election transparency. If you are ether uninterested or unable to follow the process, you dont get to claim afterwards that its worthy of storming DC.

agreed.

"and now that we're north of 400,000 dead how good does the gee, we shouldn't be enforcing restrictions argument look?"

hello, Strawman! ["an intentionally misrepresented proposition that is set up because it is easier to defeat than an opponent's real argument." and I'm not even an opponent; my only issue was the need for a balancing act that I didn't see interest in here. and states that have gotten the most apocalyptic predictions haven't quite met the fevered dreams of some. and CA's 'science' Gov banned outdoor dining in southern CA and made another strict restrictions - how does that argument look?]

meanwhile, Ds lost ground overall in 2020 with the working poor and with minorities, as well as in elected offices across the U.S.

their House margin is now very thin, and 2022 Senate could be in play as well.

but keep turning away customers because they failed to notice the Happy Hour signage. don't worry, they promise they won't come back.
   93. Mayor Blomberg Posted: January 15, 2021 at 08:08 PM (#6000022)
and CA's 'science' Gov banned outdoor dining in southern CA and made another strict restrictions - how does that argument look?

from people I know there not well-enough enforced. And I'm still waiting to her what should have happened from those who object to paths taken,


their House margin is now very thin, and 2022 Senate could be in play as well.

Not surprising, given that R turnout was sown substantially in 2018 and in a presidential year some of those seats were going to be hard to maintain.
Senate's 50-50 ya think it's in play? Sheesh!
   94. Joyful Calculus Instructor Posted: January 15, 2021 at 08:21 PM (#6000027)
from people I know there not well-enough enforced. And I'm still waiting to her what should have happened from those who object to paths taken,


Oh outdoor dining is shut down. I think it was a poor decision. And LA County closed playgrounds, which was even dumber, but fortunately I live in Ventura County where parks are still operating as normal. It's simple really: most people aren't going to refrain from seeing their friends and family. If you take away outdoor dining, they'll just have them over at their house instead. Shutting down playgrounds doesn't mean that kids won't have birthday parties. They'll just have them at their home instead. By taking away the relatively safe options, it pushes people to riskier behavior.

Not surprising, given that R turnout was sown substantially in 2018


I'm guessing that's a typo and you meant "down." But Republican turnout was not down in 2018- Republican House candidate received 10 million more votes than they did in 2014. It's just that Democrats received 25 million more votes.
   95. ramifications of an exciting 57i66135 Posted: January 15, 2021 at 08:32 PM (#6000028)
election results for the US house of representatives, by year:
2020 (votes): D 77.5MM R 72.9MM D +4.6MM 
2020 
(seats): D 222    R 212    D +10 seats

2018 
(votes): D 60.5MM R 50.8MM D +9.7MM 
2018 
(seats): D 235    R 199    D +36 seats

2016 
(votes): D 61.7MM R 63.1MM R +1.4MM 
2016 
(seats): D 194    R 241    R +47 seats

2014 
(votes): D 35.6MM R 40.1MM R +4.5MM 
2014 
(seats): D 188    R 247    R +59 seats

2012 
(votes): D 59.6MM R 58.2MM D +1.4MM 
2012 
(seats): D 201    R 234    R +33 seats

2010 
(votes): D 35.6MM R 40.1MM R +4.5MM 
2010 
(seats): D 188    R 247    R +59 seats 



if you want to know why republicans work so hard to suppress the number of voters at every opportunity, the difference between the 2014 and 2018 elections is exhibit #A.

also, the 2012 results are not a mistype. democrats won a plurality of votes, and republicans kept the house in a landslide. gerrymandering is a hell of a drug.

also, when democrats win by 5MM votes, they wind up with a 10 seat majority (2020); when republicans win by 5MM votes, they get a 59 seat majority (2010).

the game is ####### rigged, and leveling that edge is why there's about to be a substantial push towards both PR and DC statehood.
   96. Mayor Blomberg Posted: January 15, 2021 at 08:53 PM (#6000030)
JCE thanx for the correction, should have said as % of 16 vote.
   97. Howie Menckel Posted: January 15, 2021 at 08:58 PM (#6000031)
outdoor dining is shut down. I think it was a poor decision. And LA County closed playgrounds, which was even dumber, but fortunately I live in Ventura County where parks are still operating as normal. It's simple really: most people aren't going to refrain from seeing their friends and family. If you take away outdoor dining, they'll just have them over at their house instead. Shutting down playgrounds doesn't mean that kids won't have birthday parties. They'll just have them at their home instead. By taking away the relatively safe options, it pushes people to riskier behavior.

an observation like that doesn't play well in this sandbox, for whatever reason.
   98. Never Give an Inge (Dave) Posted: January 15, 2021 at 08:59 PM (#6000032)
Howie, my issue is much more with the President, politicians, lawyers, media figures and other people who are certainly educated enough to know better, and probably do know better, but instead choose to mislead the masses with false claims of election fraud based on easily disproven theories. In my opinion, those people have blood on their hands after what happened last week. And these are not people who are hurting economically; if anything many of them are grifting off of this nonsense, taking advantage of the very people who are suffering.

These people are not interested in truth or transparency, and no amount of it would have convinced them that the election was fairly run, because they *don’t care*. But yes, I’m all for a good honest discussion with the good faith skeptics out there, rather than ridicule and browbeating. I don’t see any of those here at this site, but when they come around feel free to point them in my direction.

Short of doing away with the secret ballot, I don’t really see how you can have more transparency into the voting process than we already have. We don’t need more transparency, we need a better and more honest media/political class.

If you want to discuss lockdowns and privilege and such, I’m happy to take it to the COVID thread. FWIW I recall being shocked by that comment about not knowing anyone who was suffering economically, but I think that was one or two people, certainly not the majority here.
   99. Never Give an Inge (Dave) Posted: January 15, 2021 at 09:05 PM (#6000034)
an observation like that doesn't play well in this sandbox, for whatever reason.

Without knowing more details of why they shut down outdoor dining and playgrounds, it sounds like a bad decision to me, for the reasons explained in #94. FWIW I just did outdoor dining tonight. I guess I don’t play well in the sandbox, either?
   100. Howie Menckel Posted: January 15, 2021 at 09:28 PM (#6000035)
Dave, I wasn't referring to you.

and I haven't referred to "transparency," nor offered any support for insurrectionists.

anybody who invades the Capitol needs to do serious prison time, at a minimum.

so we're not really really talking to each other.

:)
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