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Tuesday, November 30, 2021

MLB, union stopped blood testing for HGH due to pandemic

Major League Baseball and the players’ association stopped blood testing for Human Growth Hormone because of the coronavirus pandemic.

Blood testing for HGH began in 2012, and 412 samples with no positive results were collected in the year ending with the 2020 World Series. MLB and the union never publicly announced the stoppage in blood testing but its absence was revealed Monday when Thomas M. Martin, the independent administrator of the joint drug program, released his annual report.

The decision to interrupt blood testing during the pandemic was made because drawing blood is more invasive than urine testing and requires additional collectors who would have increased the number of people coming into contact with players and decreased social distancing. MLB and the union plan to resume blood testing next season.

RoyalsRetro (AG#1F) Posted: November 30, 2021 at 12:35 PM | 492 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
  Tags: hgh, peds

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   301. Lassus Posted: January 10, 2022 at 12:16 PM (#6060433)
Wow, I just realized that 1.6% was the *daily* infection rate last week. Which means that 11% of unvaccinated people (give or take; I don't have a ton of faith in the precision of these numbers) in NYS tested positive last week.

Not to be especially stupider than normal, but if 1.6% out of 100 people were positive each day, isn't that 11 people out of 700 people for the week, not 11 people out of a 100 people for the week?

(I feel as if this has been explained to me before and I either have forgotten it since then, or still don't understand it.)
   302. base ball chick Posted: January 10, 2022 at 12:16 PM (#6060434)
so
for week of jan 3,

29% positive tests
13,555 positives/day (almost 3 x last week and about 10x last month)
497 covid admissions/day to TMC hosp

this number includes city of houston and county of harris tests and any positive tests thru any TMC hosp/physician

as i understand it, it does not include any non-tmc clinic/doc or pharmacy positives. and of course not any at home tests. not that there are any around anywheres.
   303. Never Give an Inge (Dave) Posted: January 10, 2022 at 12:56 PM (#6060439)
Not to be especially stupider than normal, but if 1.6% out of 100 people were positive each day, isn't that 11 people out of 700 people for the week, not 11 people out of a 100 people for the week?


It's 1.6% of the total unvaccinated population who are testing positive every day, not 1.6% of the people who got tested that day. The positive test rate in NY was 33% last week. So it's like 33 out of every 100 people getting tested are coming back positive. That's for unvaxxed and vaxxed together, so not directly comparable, but obviously much higher than 1.6%.
   304. Lassus Posted: January 10, 2022 at 01:21 PM (#6060442)
It's 1.6% of the total unvaccinated population who are testing positive every day, not 1.6% of the people who got tested that day.

Yes, this is definitely the thing I'm still too stupid to understand, as I would apply the same standard.

If 1.6% out of 100 of the unvaccinated population test positive every day, I don't understand how that means that 11 out of 100 (of the unvaccinated population) tested positive for the week and not 11 out of 700 (of the unvaccinated population) tested positive for the week.

How do - or rather why would - you total the numerator but not the denominator?
   305. Bret Sabermatrician Posted: January 10, 2022 at 01:35 PM (#6060443)
So if you have a group of 100 unvaxxed people, .016 of that is 1.6 people, so ~98 unvaxxed are left.

Day 2, out of those ~98 people, another .016 of that number tests positive, so ~ 97 people are safe.

At the end of day 7, we're left with ~89 unvaxxed people who aren't positive (89.32349...)

Now imagine we're pulling from the entire unvaxxed population, not a subset. The number of unvaxxed left in total can only go down (assuming we don't include new births)
   306. base ball chick Posted: January 10, 2022 at 01:38 PM (#6060445)
ben,

leonbergers and newfies are gigantic Dogz. like 150+ lbs gigantic and we are talking a Dog that eats a LOT of Dog food. even more than my rottweilers. which are BIG Dogz. and go thru Dog food like teenage boyz go thru people food...

i've only met one of each - not too many of that kind of Dog around here because they don't take to the balmy yewstin weather. the leonberger is so YUGE. i met him when i was at someone's house and they kind of like forgot to tell me about the Dog and i'm sitting at the table with my lunch and suddenly there is this gigantic head 2" from my face which was, um, let' say, eager (ahem) but friendly. i kind of felt like benny the jet rodriguez there for a minute. i mean i am used to big Dogz but this one was seriously gigantic. and VERY furry (WARNNG) and LOTS of long Dog hair...

- pls pardon mah iggnints, but i thought insulin pumps were supposed to change how much they pump depending on the blood sugar level. Is this wrong? Also, how will the Dog know if it is the middle of the night and they sleeping? does he/she just react to the alarm?



   307. Lassus Posted: January 10, 2022 at 01:48 PM (#6060446)
So if you have a group of 100 unvaxxed people, .016 of that is 1.6 people, so ~98 unvaxxed are left.
Day 2, out of those ~98 people


I get where this is going, and how it is different from what I am thinking.

That being said, I still don't see how or why the same 100 people are being used to get this daily average with the positives being thrown out of the pool and everyone else remaining to be counted in the next go around. I'm seeing the 1.6% figure as:

Monday: 128 unvaccinated, 2 positive
Tuesday: 64 unvaccinated, 1 positive
Wednesday: 96 unvaccinated, 1 positive
Thursday: 95 unvaccinated, 2 positive

Etc., etc. until the end of the week.

I won't trouble the thread with beating their heads against the wall with me on this, but it's going against what I feel like I learned at some point what percentages consisted of.
   308. Lassus Posted: January 10, 2022 at 01:53 PM (#6060447)
- pls pardon mah iggnints, but i thought insulin pumps were supposed to change how much they pump depending on the blood sugar level. Is this wrong?

There are a lot of different kinds of sensors and pumps. I've never had a pump, but I do have a sensor with an alarm for high or low blood sugar. I'm not sure if any of the pumps work automatically like that. They might!


Also, how will the Dog know if it is the middle of the night and they sleeping? does he/she just react to the alarm?

Like identifying corpses buried under a freaking lake, dogs have insane smelling skills, and can tell when your body chemistry indicates a dangerously low blood sugar.
   309. AuntBea odeurs de parfum de distance sociale Posted: January 10, 2022 at 02:21 PM (#6060451)
Wishing all who post in these threads, and their loved ones, the best of luck with covid. Sorry to hear about all the messy stories.

On another note, Levitt the nobelist is now retweeting anti-vax conspiracies.
deaths for vaxed and unvaxed seems to be a global taboo

This in response to what he called "very impressive" data that shows that deaths are mostly in vaccinated people, at even a higher rate than the vaccination rate (the fraudulent implication being that vaccination caused you to be more likely to die of covid). The reality of course is that the old are much more highly vaxxed than the young, and are also much more vulnerable to death than the young. The causation arrow is backwards. Old people get vaccinated at higher rates exactly because they are at much greater risk of dying than the young, and (generally speaking) a young unvaxxed person is at less risk than an old vaxxed person. Comparing the two groups, vaxxed and unvaxxed, without controlling for age, is essentially fraudulent.

This fraudulence is an example of Simpson's paradox. In another context it could be just an innocent and subtle error or perhaps sloppy data analysis. In the context of covid vaccines it's extremely common knowledge and Levitt absolutely should know better.
   310. Never Give an Inge (Dave) Posted: January 10, 2022 at 03:03 PM (#6060458)

That being said, I still don't see how or why the same 100 people are being used to get this daily average with the positives being thrown out of the pool and everyone else remaining to be counted in the next go around. I'm seeing the 1.6% figure as:

Monday: 128 unvaccinated, 2 positive
Tuesday: 64 unvaccinated, 1 positive
Wednesday: 96 unvaccinated, 1 positive
Thursday: 95 unvaccinated, 2 positive


I think it's more like, there are 1000 unvaccinated people in the state.

50 people get tested Monday, and 16 people test positive.
50 people get tested Tuesday, and 16 people test positive.
50 people get tested Wednesday, and 16 people test positive.
etc.

So, over the course of a week, 112 people have tested positive. And the total denominator, 1000 unvaccinated people in the state, hasn't changed.

   311. Never Give an Inge (Dave) Posted: January 10, 2022 at 03:28 PM (#6060463)

The key point is that it's 1.6% of the total 1,000 who are testing positive every day, not 1.6% of the 50 who are getting tested. It's 32% of the 50 who are getting tested. (Yes, roughly 1/3 of people getting tested in NY are coming back positive right now. I think that's pretty much in line with nationwide numbers.)
   312. Lassus Posted: January 10, 2022 at 03:34 PM (#6060465)
Thank you.

It strikes me as crazy to report a daily rate of 1.6% from raw number of 16 out of 50 that can then somehow add up to a weekly rate of 11%, with 65% of the people counted in the percentage as untested. That honestly makes my brain hurt.

I trust you, and I assume there's some good reason for it, but. Yuck.

   313. Never Give an Inge (Dave) Posted: January 10, 2022 at 03:48 PM (#6060469)
Thank you.

It strikes me as crazy to report a daily rate of 1.6% from raw number of 16 out of 50 that can then somehow add up to a weekly rate of 11%, with 65% of the people counted in the percentage as untested. That honestly makes my brain hurt.

I trust you, and I assume there's some good reason for it, but. Yuck.


They're not really reporting the 1.6% anywhere except for purposes of saying it was 1,583 daily cases per 100,000 people, and putting that on a chart to show that it's much higher than the rate among vaccinated people (223 cases per 100,000 people).

I was the one who pointed out that it implied 11% of the unvaccinated had tested positive last week. However, without seeing how they're calculating all of these numbers I don't know for sure -- I just know it's a very large number.

I mean, the state as a whole over 500k cases last week, which is 2.6% of the population. So if the rate among unvaccinated people is 4-5x that for vaccinated people, 11% seems like it's in the right ballpark.
   314. SoSH U at work Posted: January 10, 2022 at 11:34 PM (#6060558)
Two people I went to high school with (they were in the Class of 87, so about 52) died from COVID just since the start of the New Year. I take it neither was vaxxed.

   315. Ben Broussard Ramjet Posted: January 11, 2022 at 03:45 AM (#6060569)
ben,

leonbergers and newfies are gigantic Dogz. like 150+ lbs gigantic and we are talking a Dog that eats a LOT of Dog food. even more than my rottweilers. which are BIG Dogz. and go thru Dog food like teenage boyz go thru people food...


Yeah, it's a worry. We're moving up to a ski area so I imagine that type of dog will be a little more common, but we will definitely need to look for somewhere to buy good-quality pet food in bulk. There's a Costco-analog in Germany that I'm trying to sign up to. It will be nice not to be the hairiest thing in the house for once, though.


- pls pardon mah iggnints, but i thought insulin pumps were supposed to change how much they pump depending on the blood sugar level. Is this wrong? Also, how will the Dog know if it is the middle of the night and they sleeping? does he/she just react to the alarm?


I thought exactly the same thing before my wife got hers - seems logical, right? There may be some out there that do, but the default seems to be that the pump is more about allowing fine control (e.g. dripping insulin in gradually over a period rather than all in one burst, being able to suspend a dose if things aren't working as planned) rather than automation. Part of the reason may be that insulin calculations have to be forward-looking - when are you going to eat, are you about to exercise, etc. - and part may be that it's a minefield for lawsuits if something goes wrong, particularly if your sensor and your pump are not designed to work as one . . .

As Lassus says, the dog doesn't pay any attention to the sensor, in theory - the dog can be trained to smell when you're dropping low and then alerts you up with a nudge of appropriate force (probably quite a lot for a Leon/Newfie!) They apparently react quicker to falling blood sugar than many/most sensors on the market. We did joke that we should try to train the ferrets, since they have even more powerful senses of smell, but as they sleep 20+ hours a day, not so wise.
   316. Ron J Posted: January 11, 2022 at 07:30 AM (#6060571)
Teams of ferrets trained to work in shifts!
   317. Greg Pope Posted: January 11, 2022 at 10:21 AM (#6060593)
I'm on day 5 (I think. I tested positive on Thursday, so the CDC says that's day 0. Friday being day 1 makes Tuesday day 5) and finally starting to feel better. Days 1-4 were all the same, no better, no worse. Congestion, sore throat, and body aches with no fatigue. Minor cough. Chills were very on and off, probably about once a day but at random times. No breathing issues, other than caused by the congestion. Mostly managed everything with OTC cold/flu medications and Tylenol. I'm not sure if I'm out of the woods yet, but something feels different today.

I'm staying in isolation today but if I continue to feel better I'll venture out tomorrow, but will wear a mask. Have some N95's for Mrs. Pope being a high school teacher. She's been a saint, delivering food to my room and sleeping in the guest room.

EDIT: "venture out" means just leave my bedroom for the first time in 6 days. Still staying home for another 4-5 days unless there's an emergency.

Thanks for all the well wishes.
   318. Ben Broussard Ramjet Posted: January 11, 2022 at 11:01 AM (#6060597)
Teams of ferrets trained to work in shifts!


Please don't give my wife ideas . . .

An appropriate day to note that it's 100 years ago today that insulin was successfully tested in humans as a diabetic treatment. My wife can no longer say '100 years ago I'd be dead' quite as accurately.
   319. base ball chick Posted: January 11, 2022 at 11:29 AM (#6060602)

315. Ben Broussard Ramjet Posted: January 11, 2022 at 03:45 AM (#6060569)

It will be nice not to be the hairiest thing in the house for once, though.


- one of the many reason i decided not to get a sex change and shoot roids and go play MLB because i magically turned into BLB


As Lassus says, the dog doesn't pay any attention to the sensor, in theory - the dog can be trained to smell when you're dropping low and then alerts you up with a nudge of appropriate force (probably quite a lot for a Leon/Newfie!) They apparently react quicker to falling blood sugar than many/most sensors on the market.


- 150 lb Dogz "nudge" with a LOT of force. of course, i'm a small woman and it does not take real too much force to "nudge" me (as the twins told the youngest when he was about 8 and rushed over to hug me and squoze me good - stoppit you gonna break mami)

- i guess you can train a Dog to wake up out of a sound sleep from a sniff instead of a sound. more sensible if it was both

- sorry for another iggnint question, but if her sugar goes down at night can't you turn the insulin down/off at night? i don't know nothin bout no insulin diabetes

p.s. trust me on this us wives git ideers from nothin at all
   320. Ben Broussard Ramjet Posted: January 11, 2022 at 11:42 AM (#6060603)
- 150 lb Dogz "nudge" with a LOT of force. of course, i'm a small woman and it does not take real too much force to "nudge" me


One reason I draw the line at a Great Dane - a former colleague had her ankle broken when walking an adolescent that suddenly was interested in something at a 90 degree angle from their prior trajectory.

- sorry for another iggnint question, but if her sugar goes down at night can't you turn the insulin down/off at night? i don't know nothin bout no insulin diabetes


None of these are bad questions, I want to re-iterate, and definitely no cause to apologise: you absolutely can, but the predictability of blood sugar patterns is not as high in many people as might be desired. She's only been actively aware of her T1D status for six years rather than growing up with it, which doesn't help, and there are co-morbidities that she has that make it harder still. And, of course, women inherently have a harder challenge to forecast their blood sugar needs.

Overnight insulin is usually fairly manageable, but there have been plenty of mornings where my wife has been up since 4am, or sleeps until noon, because she was trying to find her range for much of the night. Getting a sensor and a pump combo has helped somewhat, as has ADHD medication finally being available for her, but there's a reason we've cancelled a lot of plans over the last decade. Some days are just lost days.
   321. base ball chick Posted: January 11, 2022 at 12:34 PM (#6060615)
ben

i figgered i'd say something bout mah iggnints right off so as you wouldn't think i was trying to tell you what to do or something rude like that

glad your poor wife finally got her meds. it is beyond mah ability to understand how many docs got no idea that
1 - females have ADD
2 - you don't "outgrow" it. it just looks different just like the rest of you

all Dogz of Size need top quality leash training - meaning that no matter what happens, they continue to heel - if you don't/won't/can't do it yourself, then an actual trainer and a prong collar. of course you also need to teach the Dog from the very beginning that you are the no argument about it Alpha in the relationship (i might could be small, but mah Dogz got no doubt bout who is Da Boss). i would guess that any Dog trained to be a low sugar sniffer would also have gotten serious obedience training if it is larger than like 20 lbs.

i can't believe how many folks don't never train their Dogz how to walk properly on a leash. I saw 2 bout 25 lb Dogz pulling some woman down the street just this morning. if you too cheap to get a trainer, theres all KINDS of stuff on the Intar Netz explaining how to do it. we won't go into how many people don't/won't train their Dogz to not jump up on people. you get jumped on by a Dog of Size you goin DOWN
   322. Sleepy was just “inspecting the bunker”, y’all Posted: January 11, 2022 at 12:56 PM (#6060619)
So my kids school has an absolutely inane policy for considering someone to have been in close contact:

The person who tested positive must have eaten lunch with you indoors at the same table without their mask on.

That’s it. Nothing about sitting at the same table in class, sitting 12 inches away during story time, nothing about playgrounds, etc. And they’ve decided to combat the epidemic of exposures by moving lunch outdoors, so now there will be no such thing as “exposure”, by definition.

Even with this rather gracious definition, a 4th grade class at our school has only 8 kids able to attend. I expect it’s about to blow up.
   323. 57i66135 is a hard word for me. Posted: January 11, 2022 at 01:13 PM (#6060622)
Even with this rather gracious definition, a 4th grade class at our school has only 8 kids able to attend. I expect it’s about to blow up.
there have been 737K new cases of covid in the US per day over the last 7 days, according to worldometers. that's 5+ million new cases in the last 7 days.

for some frame of reference:

-- 6 weeks ago, before thanksgiving, there were 95K new cases of covid in the US per day over a 7 day moving average.

-- last january's peak, which is the worst outbreak of covid the US had previously experienced, topped out at 255K new cases of covid per day over a 7 day moving average.


by raw case load, this year's peak is three times worse than last year's, and we haven't actually hit the peak yet, since the rate of change in new cases is still going up.
   324. Lassus Posted: January 11, 2022 at 01:26 PM (#6060624)
The person who tested positive must have eaten lunch with you indoors at the same table without their mask on.
That’s it. Nothing about sitting at the same table in class, sitting 12 inches away during story time, nothing about playgrounds, etc.


To be fair, I'm not sure it's THAT inane. I assume they are masked at story time and in class, unlike lunch. And outside is, well, outside. I get it.
   325. AuntBea odeurs de parfum de distance sociale Posted: January 11, 2022 at 01:27 PM (#6060625)
And yesterday we set the total hospitalized record as well. It's possible we could hit a record for covid patients in ICU as well during this wave.
   326. 57i66135 is a hard word for me. Posted: January 11, 2022 at 01:29 PM (#6060626)
None of these are bad questions, I want to re-iterate, and definitely no cause to apologise: you absolutely can, but the predictability of blood sugar patterns is not as high in many people as might be desired. She's only been actively aware of her T1D status for six years rather than growing up with it, which doesn't help, and there are co-morbidities that she has that make it harder still. And, of course, women inherently have a harder challenge to forecast their blood sugar needs.

Overnight insulin is usually fairly manageable, but there have been plenty of mornings where my wife has been up since 4am, or sleeps until noon, because she was trying to find her range for much of the night. Getting a sensor and a pump combo has helped somewhat, as has ADHD medication finally being available for her, but there's a reason we've cancelled a lot of plans over the last decade. Some days are just lost days.

when i was diagnosed with type 1 diabetes as a child, the instructions that my (80+ year old) endocrinologist gave me were to only correct my blood sugar when i tested over 300, and then at a flat rate of 5 units, no matter how much higher than 300 i tested. he retired by the end of that year.

my next pediatric endocrinologist, who i continued to see until i aged out, put me on a much tighter regimen, which included an insulin pump that was pretty much the same minimed model i still use today.


the best advice i've been given in the 25 years since i was diagnosed is to correct my low blood sugar with soda (i happen to prefer mexican coke, but i was first told that sprite is the best soda to use for this purpose). within 5 minutes, the combination of sugar, caffeine and carbonation kills the feeling of being low.
   327. 57i66135 is a hard word for me. Posted: January 11, 2022 at 01:32 PM (#6060627)
To be fair, I'm not sure it's THAT inane. I assume they are masked at story time and in class, unlike lunch. And outside is, well, outside. I get it.

if you spend 6+ hours in a poorly ventilated room with multiple people who test positive, even if they're masked, even if you're masked, it's unreasonable to assume you haven't been exposed and it's irresponsible to not self-isolate.
   328. Never Give an Inge (Dave) Posted: January 11, 2022 at 01:41 PM (#6060630)
My father has been diabetic since his 20s. I remember growing up watching him give himself shots before every meal -- it seemed relatively normal to see him just give himself an injection in the arm at a restaurant (although he would go and do it in the restroom if we were eating with non-family). Even after 30+ years of managing it, he still would have days when his blood sugar was way off. I got called to the ER once because he had basically passed out while waiting for the train at Grand Central Station (thankfully he had the sense to sit down before it happened, so he didn't fall on the tracks or hit his head).

He got an insulin pump maybe 20 years ago that made things a lot easier, but he still has days when his sugar is too high or too low. I am not an expert but the doctors have told us that other things like an infection (cold, UTI, whatever) can throw your blood sugar out of whack.
   329. Never Give an Inge (Dave) Posted: January 11, 2022 at 01:47 PM (#6060632)
Folks might have seen this article from the NYT showing how deaths are beginning to rise in line with cases in a number of US cities. There's a 3-4 week lag between cases and deaths in the curves they show, so what you see in those charts is probably still due in large part to Delta, and hopefully the trend doesn't continue in lockstep with the recent rise in Omicron cases. But this is exactly why many experts said to be cautious before cheering about how much "milder" Omicron was. Because even a milder virus will still be very deadly if it spreads as rapidly as Omicron has.
   330. JL72 Posted: January 11, 2022 at 01:53 PM (#6060637)
I am not an expert but the doctors have told us that other things like an infection (cold, UTI, whatever) can throw your blood sugar out of whack.


I used to work with a guy who is diabetic, and he noted how the flu threw off his blood sugar levels. He is a Trumpikin, but nevertheless was very concerned about Covid when it first emerged for fear of what it would do to his diabetes.
   331. Lassus Posted: January 11, 2022 at 02:05 PM (#6060639)
There still to my knowledge hasn't been a lot of great information that I've seen that parses out the COVID problems with type I vs. type II diabetes. It's clear that it's super-terrible for type II, but not if it's the same level of terrible for type I.
   332. Sleepy was just “inspecting the bunker”, y’all Posted: January 11, 2022 at 02:07 PM (#6060641)
Yeah I think you also have to consider that children are not good at wearing masks, and are almost all wearing cloth masks, which apparently don’t offer much protection against omicron.

This feels like they are sticking their heads in the sand and hoping it goes away. It isn’t gonna.
   333. Ben Broussard Ramjet Posted: January 11, 2022 at 02:22 PM (#6060643)
ben

i figgered i'd say something bout mah iggnints right off so as you wouldn't think i was trying to tell you what to do or something rude like that

glad your poor wife finally got her meds. it is beyond mah ability to understand how many docs got no idea that
1 - females have ADD
2 - you don't "outgrow" it. it just looks different just like the rest of you


No worries, I appreciate it - my wife's gone through this 3 times now, first with ADD, then PCOS, then with a pancreas gradually turning itself off which turned out to be T1D. At each stage, she was told 'try eating healthier and getting more exercise', which is great advice, but doesn't magically make your pancreas grow back to health. Having moved to Germany, she's been enjoying much better care, even with the language barrier.

The way it was explained to me, part of the problem with T1D and Covid is that if you're hospitalised, a) goodness knows what happens to your blood sugar levels as your routines break down and your body goes into survival mode, b) if intubated, communicating with staff trying to manage those things about your own blood sugar tendencies becomes impossible. Plus the co-morbidities.

i can't believe how many folks don't never train their Dogz how to walk properly on a leash.


It is remarkable. A friend of mine trains working retrievers - she has four at present, the household is a smelly delight to visit - and she is crusading against the leashes with the adjustable/retractable length. Her point of view is that it just teaches dogs that, if they pull against the leash, they get more leash.

the best advice i've been given in the 25 years since i was diagnosed is to correct my low blood sugar with soda


My wife's gone to the Capri Sun juice-box things where are common and cheap over here; I don't know if they're popular in the States, though they don't have caffeine or carbonation. Her occasional complaint is that she no longer really has much ability to enjoy candy as she's only ever really eating it when she hits a low.
   334. base ball chick Posted: January 11, 2022 at 03:06 PM (#6060647)
327. we all water; we all 57i66135 Posted: January 11, 2022 at 01:32 PM (#6060627)

if you spend 6+ hours in a poorly ventilated room with multiple people who test positive, even if they're masked, even if you're masked, it's unreasonable to assume you haven't been exposed and it's irresponsible to not self-isolate


- i think that there are yuge number of people not just kidz who aren't tested at all. so you actually can't know if you hve been closely exposed to positive people. most people are not careful and definitely most kidz forget - i've seen them do stuff like stick a finger inside their mask to scratch/pick nose and not wash hands before or after.
   335. Lassus Posted: January 11, 2022 at 03:22 PM (#6060650)
and she is crusading against the leashes with the adjustable/retractable length. Her point of view is that it just teaches dogs that, if they pull against the leash, they get more leash.

This is definitely the standard amongst rescues and trainers I work with. Another Bill James-esque commonly-held-belief-is-wrong take is that the whole ALPHA DOG/SHOW THEM YOU'RE THE ALPHA thing is at least 98% bullshit, if not completely. Caesar is not universally beloved in the rescue world.


Her occasional complaint is that she no longer really has much ability to enjoy candy as she's only ever really eating it when she hits a low.

I feel like I've been told that candy - if adjusted for - is fine. I mean, like anything, don't have it every day and all the time. I had a LOT of years of incredibly shitty control, but in a weird way, candy is kind of more of a treat now as I'm eating less of it. I also push myself low for that purpose. I mean, minor chocolate is pretty minor.


Yeah I think you also have to consider that children are not good at wearing masks

Point A: I am not a parent
Point B: I am the safety manager of a school bus contractor, and have driven buses for schools during the pandemic, and have been around a LOT of kids.

Kids are 1000% no worse than adults at mask-wearing, in my anecdotal opinion. They might be better, honestly.
   336. SoSH U at work Posted: January 11, 2022 at 03:36 PM (#6060653)
Point A: I am not a parent
Point B: I am the safety manager of a school bus contractor, and have driven buses for schools during the pandemic, and have been around a LOT of kids.

Kids are 1000% no worse than adults at mask-wearing, in my anecdotal opinion. They might be better, honestly.


I volunteer at my wife's Catholic school, which has been in person since the start of the 2020-21 school year. I've been thoroughly impressed with how well the kids, K-8, handle the masks. They sit down to eat lunch, and as soon as they finish, they just put them back on without a thought.

I firmly believe the only kids who have an issue with mask wearing are ones with parents who have convinced them they should have an issue with wearing masks.
   337. Barry`s_Lazy_Boy Posted: January 11, 2022 at 03:50 PM (#6060655)
Kids are young, flexible, and deal with change a whole lot better than adults. Adults are much, much worse about masks.
   338. base ball chick Posted: January 11, 2022 at 04:14 PM (#6060660)
A friend of mine trains working retrievers - she has four at present, the household is a smelly delight to visit - and she is crusading against the leashes with the adjustable/retractable length. Her point of view is that it just teaches dogs that, if they pull against the leash, they get more leash.


- your friend is right.
the only way i would ever use a retractable leash is if i had a Dog who was well trained to heel no matter how long the leash is so if you let the Dog go a little further to do their bidness, they will return immediately when you call them back

335. Lassus Posted: January 11, 2022 at 03:22 PM (#6060650)
and she is crusading against the leashes with the adjustable/retractable length. Her point of view is that it just teaches dogs that, if they pull against the leash, they get more leash.

This is definitely the standard amongst rescues and trainers I work with. Another Bill James-esque commonly-held-belief-is-wrong take is that the whole ALPHA DOG/SHOW THEM YOU'RE THE ALPHA thing is at least 98% bullshit, if not completely. Caesar is not universally beloved in the rescue world


- i don't know bout no caesar or his thing, but i DO know that you can NOT let a Dog tell you what they are gonna do and what you want don't matter, or you will get run over, especially when you are a small woman with a large Dog. Most Dogs train pretty easy as long as you tell them what you want, correct or praise immediately. AND you gotta say what you mean and mean what you say every single time. you don't have to be mean or hit, but you do gotta let pack animals know you are the boss and they are not. that is what training is all about. like i can't have even 1 large Dog push me out of the way when i go to the door, or pull me all over when i walk them, or jump up on me and grab food away from me and untrained Dogz will do just that

sometimes there is nothing you can do - like if you get an adult Dog who has long been a table surfer. you can't break a Dog of that, i don't care what they say. either you have to live with it or keep them crated all the time.

but seriously, whats the point of having a disobedient Dog who ignores what you want or won't do anything unless you give them food or just won't obey period. i know some people will NOT train their Dogz and then turn them in to the shelter because they "bad". And you would NOT bleeve how many zilion Dogz get turned into shelters (or found abandoned) around here. i have helped with a few of them and they are young Dogz/adult Dogz and i have had very little trouble training them to sit/stay/come/heel and they never heard those words before. you just have to be the boss
   339. base ball chick Posted: January 11, 2022 at 04:16 PM (#6060661)
336. SoSH U at work Posted: January 11, 2022 at 03:36 PM (#6060653)

Kids are 1000% no worse than adults at mask-wearing, in my anecdotal opinion. They might be better, honestly.



I volunteer at my wife's Catholic school, which has been in person since the start of the 2020-21 school year. I've been thoroughly impressed with how well the kids, K-8, handle the masks. They sit down to eat lunch, and as soon as they finish, they just put them back on without a thought.

I firmly believe the only kids who have an issue with mask wearing are ones with parents who have convinced them they should have an issue with wearing masks


- somhow i got this feeling that the parents up where you are are a lot less jerkish thn they are here
   340. SoSH U at work Posted: January 11, 2022 at 05:02 PM (#6060668)
- somhow i got this feeling that the parents up where you are are a lot less jerkish thn they are here


Well, we've got a few, but that's probably a safe bet overall.
   341. Tony S Posted: January 11, 2022 at 06:00 PM (#6060679)
I'm a T2D. My blood sugar numbers went nuts Monday morning, after I conked my head severely enough that I look like a raccoon today. They were a little less nuts this morning. Don't really feel bad otherwise. But now I'm at the point where I'm jumping out of my own skin with every "irregularity" -- any slight joint pain anywhere, any above-normal temperature, the slightest sign of a non-optimal throat.

I haven't been anywhere since Friday, when I took a quick trip to the mask-mandated (thank you, county) grocery store.

This just sucks. After two years of risk minimization, I feel like Leon Lett being chased down by Don Beebe. I'm trying not to do what Lett did...
   342. 57i66135 is a hard word for me. Posted: January 11, 2022 at 06:25 PM (#6060682)
Covid Simulator is exactly what it says on the tin. By using data from the official CDC website, indie developer coldrice’s game allows you to simulate how covid-19 spreads in a workplace. There isn’t a “win” condition. The simulation keeps running no matter how much debt your virtual business accumulates, and you can even run simulations with zero employees. So there are no concrete goals, only sadistic experimentation.
...
Many Americans live in communities that are highly vaccine-hesitant. I started a new simulation. This time, I simulated a workplace with a ton of antivax propaganda. At the beginning, we remained profitable despite the occasional death or hospitalization. However, all of these antivax simulations ended with a spiraling debt hole, as a single mutation was all it took for my company to completely break down once antivax sentiment took root. The real virus in Covid Simulator wasn’t the virus itself: It was pseudoscience and a refusal to prioritize collective welfare.
...
You can download Covid Simulator for free on Itch.io, or wait for the Steam version that’s due to land on January 24.

   343. Lassus Posted: January 11, 2022 at 06:45 PM (#6060687)
I'm a T2D. My blood sugar numbers went nuts Monday morning, after I conked my head severely enough that I look like a raccoon today.

Of all the ###### up things diabetics have to deal with your ####### MOOD (stress) raising your blood sugar is the worst. Obviously you actually conking your head is a physical stress, not your mood, but the stresses of COVID raise your blood sugar.
   344. Tony S Posted: January 11, 2022 at 09:00 PM (#6060708)
Of all the ###### up things diabetics have to deal with your ####### MOOD (stress) raising your blood sugar is the worst. Obviously you actually conking your head is a physical stress, not your mood, but the stresses of COVID raise your blood sugar.


Wondering if I was going to have to go to the ER... well, that did the opposite of reducing my stress.
   345. Bret Sabermatrician Posted: January 12, 2022 at 09:52 AM (#6060756)
So my daughter had to test for school 5 days after her last exposure to my wife. Daughter tested positive this AM, so her surgery for tomorrow is off.

Meanwhile, I tested in solidarity even though I go nowhere. I tested negative, but was in the car for the next hour with her waiting on results in case she got to go to school.

So now I get to continue wondering if I'm going to start showing symptoms for the next week.

Fun times.
   346. SoSH U at work Posted: January 12, 2022 at 09:58 AM (#6060760)
Best of luck Bret.
   347. AuntBea odeurs de parfum de distance sociale Posted: January 12, 2022 at 11:41 AM (#6060781)
Latest South Africa excess death numbers are out. Over 17,000 excess deaths since November 21. That's almost 15% of the delta wave already. 25% total is not out of the question. Peak weekly excess deaths are now 1/3 of the delta wave. They aren't likely to get much higher at this point, since the peak week is now a few weeks back.

Reported deaths are lower, but that might be just until the next data dump. They currently show 10% of the delta wave, with 15% total very likely now and 20% not out of the question. Weekly reported peak was a little over 25% of delta.
   348. Sleepy was just “inspecting the bunker”, y’all Posted: January 12, 2022 at 02:58 PM (#6060818)
Kids are 1000% no worse than adults at mask-wearing, in my anecdotal opinion. They might be better, honestly.

Oh I agree that it’s easier to get them to wear them, but I’ve never seen an adult actually chew on their mask, etc. I volunteer in my kid’s class a couple tines a week and am amazed no one has choked to death yet.

Bottom line is we need more transparency. If a kid tests positive in a class, the whole class should be notified. There were 6 kids out sick from my son’s class today. Two others were visibly sniffly and/or coughing. the only reason I know that is because I was helping them their math problems and know all their names, and could see empty seats.

Were they out with the flu? Covid? Etc? Did one kid test positive and the others eat lunch with them, or are they all sick? One of them is my son’s best buddy- I know they were almost certainly wrestling and stuff on the playground. Since the school has engineered the definition of “Covid close contact” to be meaningless, I can’t know if my son has been exposed. My wife and I are both boosted and we don’t live with older people, so the risk is fairly low, but it’s still maddening.
   349. Tony S Posted: January 12, 2022 at 05:37 PM (#6060839)
Going in for a PCR test tomorrow. My blood-sugar numbers have just been too crazy since I hit my head.

I have chills, low-grade fever, and lethargy -- I actually feel almost exactly like I did for a couple of days after the vaccines. No cough or sore throat or congestion, not yet anyway. I just want to know if this is head-trauma related (the symptoms started almost immediately after that) or Covid-related.

Closest open testing slot I could find was in Owings Mills, about an hour away from me. Next closest was around Pittsburgh.
   350. Greg Pope Posted: January 12, 2022 at 05:58 PM (#6060845)
Going in for a PCR test tomorrow.

My county site just got back to me today with my positive results. Went in last Thursday. Tested positive on a home test on Friday and am just now starting to feel better. In other words, the county's test ended up being completely pointless for me. I guess I go into their numbers, but testing that takes 6 days to come back isn't useful.
   351. Ziggy: social distancing since 1980 Posted: January 12, 2022 at 06:28 PM (#6060849)
Was feeling much better this morning. Hardly even a stuffy head. But I went out for a walk and got worn out in, like, eight blocks. Guess I'm not better yet.

Wife is negative. Of course I've hardly seen her in a week.

As for kids and masks - in my admittedly anecdotal experience, they're great with them. My son is five, he barely remembers when people didn't wear masks. It's totally normal for him. Sometimes when it's cold he'll wear one outside to "keep his face warm". He and his friends wear them as a matter of course, and never even complain. (And five year olds not complaining about something is a miracle in its own right.)
   352. AuntBea odeurs de parfum de distance sociale Posted: January 12, 2022 at 09:23 PM (#6060872)
The CDC's death projections for the omicron wave were way too high last week, but now look a little low. They project the same number of reported deaths this week as we just had last week (11,200), which we will clear by a significant margin. Their mean projection looks like it will top out around 3000 per day, or a little over 20,000 per week. A reasonable guess, but I actually expect it will go a little higher.
   353. Lassus Posted: January 13, 2022 at 06:37 AM (#6060900)
I have a question that's definitely going to be a little sensitive that I will at least ATTEMPT to phrase decently, as I'm legitimately curious.

Both here and in Discord expat BBTF, there are various people talking about their positivity and COVID sickness and while some of them talk about their kids, or others an event, there are a number of folks where it doesn't come up how or where.

Is it truly a 100% mystery for those people? Was it repeated exposure possibilities so the mystery is for that? I do find the whole thing fascinating.
   354. Fancy Pants Handle struck out swinging Posted: January 13, 2022 at 07:06 AM (#6060901)
And you would NOT bleeve how many zilion Dogz get turned into shelters (or found abandoned) around here.

I would. I have one of them. Well, I mean mine is from around here, and not from around there. Picked her up dodging cars on the main road. Chip was to a landline with an area code from about 200 miles away. So they clearly drove her down here and abandoned her, so she wouldn't be able to find her own way back. People can be monsters when it comes to pets.
   355. Never Give an Inge (Dave) Posted: January 13, 2022 at 08:01 AM (#6060904)
Lassus, I went to an office holiday party and a work conference, both unmasked. Also flew back from the conference on a plane next to a woman who was coughing the whole time. This was all within a 5-day stretch — I probably caught it in one of those situations but don’t know which.
   356. Lassus Posted: January 13, 2022 at 08:16 AM (#6060905)
Thanks. I mean, no one else has to respond, I'm sure that's generally the answer. I doubt anyone is really surprised by their positivity.

I would be dishonest if I didn't say I wasn't surprised, I guess. I feel like a dick for even expressing that much, but it's a bit weird still.
   357. Tony S Posted: January 13, 2022 at 09:01 AM (#6060909)
Given how transmissible Omicron is, there are going to be a lot of people who do everything right and still wind up getting it. And we're human; two years into this pandemic, nobody has his guard up 100% of the time.

That said, getting the booster and minimizing the viral load you're exposed to can be the difference between a mild case, a "mild" case, or the hospital.
   358. base ball chick Posted: January 13, 2022 at 10:04 AM (#6060913)
354. Fancy Pants Handle struck out swinging Posted: January 13, 2022 at 07:06 AM (#6060901)

And you would NOT bleeve how many zilion Dogz get turned into shelters (or found abandoned) around here.


I would. I have one of them. Well, I mean mine is from around here, and not from around there. Picked her up dodging cars on the main road. Chip was to a landline with an area code from about 200 miles away. So they clearly drove her down here and abandoned her, so she wouldn't be able to find her own way back. People can be monsters when it comes to pets

- am glad you have her
did yall calll the number on the chip?

we got SO many abandoned Dogz around here that the (city and county) vet has to put umpty hundreds down every week because they can't find enough rescues/adopters to get them all. they put down any Dog who is not taken by a rescue, and not an obvious puppy, for ANY illness/disease right away and the others (except puppies) last only a week. and the shelters (city and county) are FULL of disease that kills off some of those poor puppies too. no wonder those vets don't stay real too long. they most likely didn't get into this to kill umpty hundreds of Dogz and cats

we even got groups who transport them in vans somewheres Up North to get adopted. i can't figure out how theres no Dogs to get adopted Up There but - shrug_ at least they getting adopted



Lassus Posted: January 13, 2022 at 06:37 AM (#6060900).

there are various people talking about their positivity and COVID sickness and while some of them talk about their kids, or others an event, there are a number of folks where it doesn't come up how or where. Is it truly a 100% mystery for those people?

- i know someone who got covid and she was seriously obsessive (lives alone) about mask wearing because sh has to take a immune drug. she really got NO idea where she got it from
   359. Greg Pope Posted: January 13, 2022 at 11:46 AM (#6060929)
Is it truly a 100% mystery for those people?

I think I'm one of those who said he knows (here and at Discord). My daughter went to Nashville for New Year's Eve. She came home and I saw her on the 3rd. She went back to school but tested positive on the 4th. I then tested positive on the 6th. We were out together at a restaurant on the 3rd, so it's conceivable that I got it there, but I'm assuming I got it from her.
   360. base ball chick Posted: January 13, 2022 at 01:18 PM (#6060957)
oh yeah

lassus

read a little bit of that ceasar Dog guy and he got a Dog "pack" of 60 Dogz? ok he IS wack. that is a Dog hoarder or worse. unless they are there just for training and he got a LOT of people to help him out. beating/hitting Dogz is Dog abuse no matter WHAT they done. as for that "alpha roll" horseshtttt, well, someone need to explain how a 100 lb woman is supposed to roll an alpha Dog who is ALREADY resisting authority onto its back. i mean, they got teeth don't they??!!

i'd have like to see this caesar guy try to alpha roll my pit Babe Ruth Dog who was the largest female pit i have ever seen, onto her back. She loathed adult male humans (except Husband and thats how i knew i should marry him but thats another story) and was seriously alpha, and if some male tried to manhandle (man. handle. hahahahaha) her it would not have gone real too good for that man is all i can say

when i say the person got to be the alpha i do NOT mean abuse. i mean the person has to teach the Dog to obey her or they don't take you serious and even little itty Dogz are snappers and will bite. puppies train real fast. it is adult Dogz who are used to pushing folks around that are much harder to train
   361. GregD Posted: January 13, 2022 at 01:29 PM (#6060959)
Our family—all vaxed and all eligible had been boosted—traveled then tested negative. Entered into unmasked extended family gatherings where everyone was vaxed and everyone eligible boosted and everyone tested negative…10 of 14 ended up positive, one quite sick, three or four somewhat sick, rest mild to nothing. Surely somebody had been exposed in a way that didn’t register on the at home tests and it spread really quickly despite all the vaccination.

All the family gathers were at one of the family members’ houses. No restaurants or anything. People did go masked tk grocery stores or to get takeout
   362. Barry`s_Lazy_Boy Posted: January 13, 2022 at 01:59 PM (#6060962)
there are a number of folks where it doesn't come up how or where.

Some don't know, some don't think it matters, some don't want to bore others with the story, some are embarrassed how it happened. I fall into the latter category. We were super careful for 1.5 years, then attended a risky event, and it happened. Dumb.


   363. Fancy Pants Handle struck out swinging Posted: January 13, 2022 at 05:00 PM (#6060983)
- am glad you have her
did yall calll the number on the chip?

Yeah, called the number, asked if they had lost a dog. They said they "weren't sure" if they had lost one. As if you could somehow not know that...

Either way, she is doing well now, which is the main thing. And she is very well behaved, and the sweetest girl you could ask for. Ironically, that might be why she was abandoned to begin with. She is a whippet, and over here, they often get bred for coursing and haring. So my leading theory is that they decided she was no use to them, because she wouldn't kill anything.
   364. base ball chick Posted: January 13, 2022 at 06:11 PM (#6060989)
363. Fancy Pants Handle struck out swinging Posted: January 13, 2022 at 05:00 PM (#6060983)

- am glad you have her
did yall calll the number on the chip?



Yeah, called the number, asked if they had lost a dog. They said they "weren't sure" if they had lost one. As if you could somehow not know that...

Either way, she is doing well now, which is the main thing. And she is very well behaved, and the sweetest girl you could ask for. Ironically, that might be why she was abandoned to begin with. She is a whippet, and over here, they often get bred for coursing and haring. So my leading theory is that they decided she was no use to them, because she wouldn't kill anything


- those people are human garbage. don't know if they lost a Dog mah buttt. they could have called a rescue or taken her to humane society but no, better to have her killed by a truck

- i know someone who found a belgin shepherd and her pup at a park. nice sweet friendly Dogs. not a thing wrong with neither one. no chips. but around here that kind of Dog gets bred to be mean and nasty - they police Dogz - and these 2 were quiet and gentle and this is most likely why they got thrown out. i don't never get why they don't just call the rescue to pick em up. or post em on line. why leave the poor Dogz out there to starve/get hit by car/get euthanized by city of houston/harris county shelters
   365. . . . . . . Posted: January 13, 2022 at 06:42 PM (#6060993)
FWIW, and i know this is a sacrilegious thing to say, but I can't recommend NOT getting a shelter dog enough. For years, all my friends got dogs from shelters - adults, puppies, you name it. Pit bulls, other breeds, etc. And every damn dog had either behavioral or health issues. Finally my wife insisted we get a purebred from a good breeder. And the difference is SO profound. We met our pup's parents and two of his four grandparents AND even one of his GREAT grandparents. We knew all of their health history and temperament before we adopted our little ####. We were able to meet all the puppies in the litter, test their temperaments, and adopt one who was particularly well-suited for city life (submissive, but low-fear). And he's just EASY. He's bright, obedient, zero aggression, cuddly, doesn't bark too much, etc. I'd like to pretend that I'm the world's greatest dog trainer, but I'm not at all. He's just a congenitally good dog.

I don't doubt that shelter dogs can be loving or loyal or amazing if you get a good one - but my god they're a minefield. And they take a lot of work.
   366. Fancy Pants Handle struck out swinging Posted: January 13, 2022 at 07:02 PM (#6060995)
"Shop, don't adopt!" might be a peak zop take.
   367. Howie Menckel Posted: January 13, 2022 at 07:04 PM (#6060996)
the sweetest girl you could ask for. Ironically, that might be why she was abandoned to begin with. She is a whippet, and over here, they often get bred for coursing and haring. So my leading theory is that they decided she was no use to them, because she wouldn't kill anything.

I have a close family member that had made the welfare of dogs her work life focus (and there are a million-plus worse pathways).

her place found a "huntin' dog" wandering around aimlessly.

wonderful dog, but yes, no comprehension of chasing a scent at all. and in the region where this dog was from, none of these dogs are not in any ways "pets" - they are employees. and if they don't pull their weight, they get fired, as this one did, and sent off the work grounds.

now, I'm a cat person, so I'm not making any proclamation here. don't know what to make of that.

happy ending: my relative took the dog in, and he (she?) immediately bonded with a pit bull and one of those Japanese breeds immediately. have been told the dog likely wasn't abused, and didn't seem traumatized. confused, maybe. and then a new home, and.... hey, this works!

always loved my mom's phrase when someone tried to knock an offbeat, eccentric, or otherwise 'different' person.

"We're all God's children," she'd calmly say.
   368. Srul Itza Posted: January 13, 2022 at 08:19 PM (#6061001)
We have gotten two shelter dogs over the years. One was a golden mix, current one is purebred Tibetan Spaniel.

Both loving sweethearts.

No problems.

I think the problem is the zop hangs out with people like himself who simply aren't competent in dealing with dogs.

Just a thought.
   369. Fancy Pants Handle struck out swinging Posted: January 13, 2022 at 08:52 PM (#6061003)
I think the problem is the zop hangs out with people like himself who simply aren't competent in dealing with dogs.

Or humans.
   370. . . . . . . Posted: January 13, 2022 at 10:03 PM (#6061006)
Srul, I have no doubt that a skilled dog handler like you can have a rewarding experience with a shelter dog. But 50% of dog owners are below average dog handlers. And for us unlucky below average folks, a pure bred dog is a much better choice. Telling people they must adopt from a shelter is like telling someone they can’t eat steak because people are starving in Africa; except the moral imperative to use your money to save children as opposed to dogs is, if anything, even stronger.
   371. Srul Itza Posted: January 13, 2022 at 10:33 PM (#6061008)
Most purebred dogs come from puppy mills. Reputable breeders are few and far between compared to puppy mills.

I have known many people who have shelter dogs. I have yet to hear of the problems you are claiming.



   372. Howie Menckel Posted: January 13, 2022 at 10:57 PM (#6061012)
my kingdom for "Edit"

"I have a close family member WHO HAS made the welfare of dogs her work life focus (and there are a million-plus worse pathways)."

"wonderful dog, but yes, no comprehension of chasing a scent at all. and in the region where this dog was from, none of these dogs ARE in any ways "pets"
   373. . . . . . . Posted: January 13, 2022 at 11:18 PM (#6061013)
Most purebred dogs come from puppy mills. Reputable breeders are few and far between compared to puppy mills.


Sure. I'm obviously referring to purebred dogs from a reputable breeder. Buying from a pet store is madness. You're better off with a shelter puppy.
   374. DonP stopped lurking Posted: January 14, 2022 at 12:13 AM (#6061015)
Over the years I've had 6 rescued dogs. All were absolutely wonderful. One that was 3 when adopted, now 13, has never learned to walk well on a leash, which is not good, but he's otherwise fine, very loving and quite a character. One took a full 3 months to warm up and trust his new people, but afterwards was well worth it. I adopted a husky/malamute when he was 4 that had been badly mistreated his entire life, and he was marvelous - fun, smart, caring, loved his "pack". He died from a tumor just 3 years later and I still miss him daily. I would suggest if you want a dog but feel you wouldn't do well with a dog from a shelter, try a rescue organization. They are usually more thorough about finding a good match, and often have more time to spend on individual dogs to prep (some basic training, dealing with any medical issues, etc) them for adoption than shelters do. The rescue orgs I've dealt with have a policy of taking the dog back if they don't work out for the new owners.
   375. Never Give an Inge (Dave) Posted: January 14, 2022 at 12:46 AM (#6061016)
It looks like cases in NY and NJ have hit the peak of the Omicron wave and are starting to come down now. National peak will hopefully be soon. I honestly have no idea what to expect in terms of deaths from this wave.
   376. base ball chick Posted: January 14, 2022 at 01:13 AM (#6061019)
369. Fancy Pants Handle struck out swinging Posted: January 13, 2022 at 08:52 PM (#6061003)

I think the problem is the zop hangs out with people like himself who simply aren't competent in dealing with dogs.



Or humans.


- now, now

zop is not a Bad Guy

- of course he's right about 50% of dog owners are below average dog handlers. and think that a Dog should come ready made and no problem and never need training.

he got lucky because he got the money and time to go find what he wanted and pay that large price.

he got a point about a purebred Dog - if you want a Dog with specific traits not found in any other Dog - like, say, a poodle and you Do want a reputable breeder who will allow people to meet the puppies and family, just like zop did. i seriously mistrust breeders who will just ship you a puppy. u don't know nothing bout that baby you paying thousands for

you can also meet non-purebred pups from a litter and meet at least the mother.

i think that mill "breeders" are beyond bad people - it's female Dog abuse and usually the pups are sent off way too young like 4 or 5 weeks and the mother is re-bred as soon as she comes into heat which is about a month or 2 after she weans the pups. she is malnourished and the pups are full of worms, got no shots, have not been spayed/neutered/screened for disease. all around BAD

if you get a Dog from a rescue, they screen YOU even more than you screen the Dog. and rescue Dogs are hundreds for a puppy of who knows what ancestry
BUT they been wormed, got vetted, got shots, got spayed/neutered. they are usually pretty straight about which Dogz are, let' say. um, more difficult

i have had to return a Dog - one i simply could NOT housebreak him and he was extra super hyper as well and it was not OK in a home with small kids. he wasn't bad or mean, just needed more attention than i could give him. had a few more that tmy other Dogz did NOT like and that never works.

but the thing is that Dogs they got their own personality and even if you Do meet the rest of the litter and the parents, your Dog gonna grow into who they are and they might not be like their parents. kind of like humans...
   377. Ben Broussard Ramjet Posted: January 14, 2022 at 06:06 AM (#6061020)
I would suggest if you want a dog but feel you wouldn't do well with a dog from a shelter, try a rescue organization. They are usually more thorough about finding a good match, and often have more time to spend on individual dogs to prep (some basic training, dealing with any medical issues, etc) them for adoption than shelters do. The rescue orgs I've dealt with have a policy of taking the dog back if they don't work out for the new owners.


I was confused about the distinction between 'shelters' and 'rescues' here, as I think most establishments in the UK and Germany I'm aware of would qualify as 'rescues'. All the rescues I've seen have talked a big game on their website about 'applicants are carefully vetted' and 'we will need to inspect your property before allowing you to adopt an animal', but in practise have asked a couple of questions and then handed over the troublemakers to us.

I assume they'll be stricter when we graduate from ferrets to cats and dogs, but the gap was noticeable.
   378. Ben Broussard Ramjet Posted: January 14, 2022 at 06:22 AM (#6061021)
Meanwhile, in the fun-loving UK, Prime Minister Johnson is teetering as story after story emerges of illegal parties at 10 Downing St, at least one he himself attended (though he 'didn't know it was a party'). The most damning allegations so far appeared last night, when the Telegraph - Johnson-supporting, and his former employer - broke a story that the night before Prince Philip's funeral, two separate Downing St parties occurred and merged in the early hours of the morning. One was a leaving party for the now-deputy editor of the Sun, which helps explain why that paper has reported very little on this topic.

Johnson himself isn't alleged to have been at those particular events (though he is credibly alleged to have been at more than the one he's so far admitted to), but the fact that they happened the night before one of the defining images of the pandemic, the Queen sitting in black, on her own, at her husband's funeral, scrupulously following the law on social distancing, is striking hard at voter's memories, especially those most disposed to be Johnson supporters.

At the moment there are at least 12 different Whitehall events being cited as going well beyond the UK's covid rules at the time, including the event Johnson's admitted attending - to which over 100 were invited by Johnson's private secretary with a 'BYOB' tag. That tag seems . . . incompatible with a work event. Having an unserious person in charge of the country at the time always seemed likely to result in this kind of thing, though.
   379. Lassus Posted: January 14, 2022 at 07:04 AM (#6061022)
#366 about nails it. Most of whatever else I'd say as an animal rescuer has already been covered.

"Reputable dog breeder" inspires somewhat less confidence in ethical behavior than "reputable hedge fund operator".
   380. Never Give an Inge (Dave) Posted: January 14, 2022 at 08:39 AM (#6061026)
Another week of breakthrough case reporting from NY continues to show consistent rates of vaccine effectiveness. I can’t vouch for the underlying data but infection and hospitalization rates continue to be much higher in unvaccinated than in vaccinated people.

   381. Lassus Posted: January 14, 2022 at 09:10 AM (#6061034)
Oneida County MAY have hit its peak. Maybe. 7-day rolling average positive tests:

12/27 - 9.4%
12/28 - 9.4%
12/29 - 10.6%
12/30 - 11.3%
12/31 - 12.4%
1/1 - 12.7%
1/2 - 12.9%
1/3 - 13.4%
1/4 - 15.5%
1/5 - 16.1%
1/6 - 16.2%
1/7 - 16.9%
1/8 - 16.9%
1/9 - 17%
1/10 - 16.7%
1/11 - 16.7%

   382. Fancy Pants Handle struck out swinging Posted: January 14, 2022 at 09:11 AM (#6061037)
he got a point about a purebred Dog - if you want a Dog with specific traits not found in any other Dog - like, say, a poodle and you Do want a reputable breeder who will allow people to meet the puppies and family, just like zop did.

Fun fact, poodles are originally hunting dogs, used especially for retrieving water fowl. Which just goes to show that most dog breeds are very versatile and malleable. Breed can of course matter, but outside of specialised working dogs, it tends to matter far, far less than training, handling, and environment.
   383. . . . . . . Posted: January 14, 2022 at 10:05 AM (#6061038)
Fun fact, poodles are originally hunting dogs, used especially for retrieving water fowl. Which just goes to show that most dog breeds are very versatile and malleable. Breed can of course matter, but outside of specialised working dogs, it tends to matter far, far less than training, handling, and environment.


Now now - that's a distortion that verges on a misstatement. Poodles were indeed originally working dogs / retrievers, but there are lineages that have been bred as companion dogs for literally hundreds of years. I think it would be difficult or impossible to find a line of poodles in the US today that is bred as a working dog. Maybe in France. And even so, there is a notable difference in the temperament of the toy/miniature poodles (which have been bred as pets for longer) than the standard.

Take the German Shepherd Dog: A dog from a show line has enormous health risks. A dog from a working line has real temperament risks. A dog from a pet line has a good shot at being one of best pets you could have. Are these absolute rules? Of course not. The range of personalities overlaps enormously, within breed and between breeds. But genetics matter, breeding matters, and if you're making a bet on what a dog will turn out to be, better to make a bet when the odds are in your favor.

The other point is that dog socialization overwhelmingly occurs prior to 16 weeks old. No responsible breeder or shelter will give you a puppy before 12 weeks (and many argue for later!). So you are relying on the person who has your puppy for its first three months for much of what your dog will ultimately be. When you buy from a reputable breeder, you have the chance to diligence the conditions your puppy is being raised in and you can have comfort about socialization.

bbc's point about cost is well-taken. FWIW, shelters in NYC now charge so much for a dog that the price difference between buying from a breeder and adopting from a shelter was a few hundred dollars, which while not insignificant, is dwarfed by the costs of owning a dog.

   384. base ball chick Posted: January 14, 2022 at 10:44 AM (#6061043)
377. Ben Broussard Ramjet Posted: January 14, 2022 at 06:06 AM (#6061020

I was confused about the distinction between 'shelters' and 'rescues' here, as I think most establishments in the UK and Germany I'm aware of would qualify as 'rescues'. All the rescues I've seen have talked a big game on their website about 'applicants are carefully vetted' and 'we will need to inspect your property before allowing you to adopt an animal', but in practise have asked a couple of questions and then handed over the troublemakers to us


- i don't know about things go where you are and Dog adoption, but here in yewstin, "shelters" are county of harris and city of houston. they take in unwanted pets and as i said, they got 7 days to have someone adopt them or they get the chop. i hve heard that they are supposedly no kill shelters, but they would have to open up a LOT more buildings and have a LOT more employees to keep all the Dogz and cats. I know they put down sick/dying/vicious Dogz

- if they get a Dog that looks (sort of) like breed X, they call that breed specific rescue before putting the Dog in general population to see if they will take it. some rescues take breed crosses, some take only Dogs that look like breed X. these are the ones that make sure Dog has all shots, spay/neuter etc. Some do and some don't take Dogz with health problems.

- humane society takes in Dogz and cats and far as i know it is still a no-kill shelter

there are a lot of folks all indignant about kill shelters but i don't see those self same folks taking in at their own expense and supporting all those animals

it costs like $75 to adopt a Dog (less on special adopt a Dog days) from a city/county shelter. it costs (looked it up) a good $3000 to adopt a yorkie from an AKC breeder
   385. . . . . . . Posted: January 14, 2022 at 11:33 AM (#6061055)
it costs like $75 to adopt a Dog (less on special adopt a Dog days) from a city/county shelter. it costs (looked it up) a good $3000 to adopt a yorkie from an AKC breeder


oh wow I wish NYC was like this. NYC we were quoted $800 all in to adopt a non-pit bull from a local shelter. Usual price was $400-500, but they required an additional donation to move to the front of the waiting list. Otherwise the wait was months, and you basically had to take what was available when it was your turn. And then there were other incremental costs that they'd require you to incur. My pure bred was $1800.

For $360, you could take your pick of pit bull with scary behavioral issues. I love pit bulls and I shared an amazing one as an office pet, but owning one in the city can be challenging.
   386. base ball chick Posted: January 14, 2022 at 11:39 AM (#6061058)
383. . . . . . . Posted: January 14, 2022 at 10:05 AM (#6061038)

Fun fact, poodles are originally hunting dogs, used especially for retrieving water fowl. Which just goes to show that most dog breeds are very versatile and malleable. Breed can of course matter, but outside of specialised working dogs, it tends to matter far, far less than training, handling, and environment.


Now now - that's a distortion that verges on a misstatement. Poodles were indeed originally working dogs / retrievers, but there are lineages that have been bred as companion dogs for literally hundreds of years. I think it would be difficult or impossible to find a line of poodles in the US today that is bred as a working dog. Maybe in France. And even so, there is a notable difference in the temperament of the toy/miniature poodles (which have been bred as pets for longer) than the standard.


- you can find standard poodles that are working Dogz. i just looked it up and found it right away

poodles are incredibly smart dogz. you can teach them about anything. don't know about the difference between the different size Dogz because i only been around standards. i been around a lot of the oodle crosses and they NOTHING like an actual poodle


Take the German Shepherd Dog: A dog from a show line has enormous health risks. A dog from a working line has real temperament risks. A dog from a pet line has a good shot at being one of best pets you could have. Are these absolute rules? Of course not. The range of personalities overlaps enormously, within breed and between breeds. But genetics matter, breeding matters, and if you're making a bet on what a dog will turn out to be, better to make a bet when the odds are in your favor.


- same thing with any breed. you gotta make sure they are not inbred and don't have bad genes. that is part of what you are paying all the thousands of bucks for. the stupid shepherd show Dog breeders for a while bred for Dogz with those bad hips and eyes and all that shttt because they liked the look of bad hips. pretty stupid. kind of reminds me of the chinese foot binding fetish thing. or what they doing with siamese cats giving them tiny heads like a triangle and ears bout biggern they head. HIDEOUS. my daddy got a regular siamese and you compare the freak show cats with him - well good lord

- also, some breeders won't sell the best pups - they keep them for themself or for other breeders and you get what's left

The other point is that dog socialization overwhelmingly occurs prior to 16 weeks old. No responsible breeder or shelter will give you a puppy before 12 weeks (and many argue for later!). So you are relying on the person who has your puppy for its first three months for much of what your dog will ultimately be. When you buy from a reputable breeder, you have the chance to diligence the conditions your puppy is being raised in and you can have comfort about socialization.


- best i can tell most breeders sell pups at 8-12 weeks. they should be socialized to adult humans but may not have met any other adult Dogz besides the ones they grew up with and may not have met any little humans neither. in mah not so umble opinyin, under 12 weeks is way too young to be taken away from its family. but mah opinyin don't mean no nothing i know. you can socialize a pup to other Dogz not in your house or from someone else whose Dogz you KNOW got all they shots and not sick, after it got all its shots, which it should have by 4 months. i wouldn't NEVER take a pup to no Dog park before that because other Dogs are there and they full of disease.

i think i like talking bout Dogz bettern covid and all the folks sick/dying etc

- and some Dogz got this nervous personality from the time they born just bout and they got trouble socializing to all kind of stuff - like other humans, other Dogz, cats etc. kind of like people. i know someone got a purebred, forget what breed, from a reputable breeder, paid all KINDS of $$$ but that Dog had all kind of serious behavior problems. they took him to a few trainers and a dog behaviorist and a vet psychologist - yes, i swear it - and eventually had to put the Dog down because couldn't nobody fix that Dog.

   387. Lassus Posted: January 14, 2022 at 11:47 AM (#6061060)
   388. . . . . . . Posted: January 14, 2022 at 11:55 AM (#6061062)
Lassus, try adopting anything but a adult pitbull for those prices. There’s the price they put on their website and then there’s the actual price they quote you on the phone once you apply. This is not a particularly secret problem - I think the Times did an article on it during the pandemic.
   389. Ben Broussard Ramjet Posted: January 14, 2022 at 12:01 PM (#6061064)
The most well-known London equivalent, Battersea Cats and Dogs Home:

Puppies: About $340
Dogs: About $240/$440 for a pair
Kittens: About $170/$310 for a pair
Cats: About $130/$230 for a pair

Includes microchip, vaccinations, neutering, starter pack of food, and four weeks of pet insurance. Pretty sure they're not allowed to tack on extras as in 388 above, but they probably try to upsell you leashes, crates, etc.

It would be interesting to compare that to pre-pandemic, of course. Ferrets seem to go for $35-50 each, I paid a lot more for our recent pair of jills here in Germany, who were not rescues, but it's been more than worth it. (EDIT - not because they're 'better' than our previous rescues, but because there aren't any rescues nearby and having two young ferrets dance and chase their way through your early morning is a heck of a lot better than reading the news in-depth.)
   390. base ball chick Posted: January 14, 2022 at 01:07 PM (#6061079)
385. . . . . . . Posted: January 14, 2022 at 11:33 AM (#6061055)

it costs like $75 to adopt a Dog (less on special adopt a Dog days) from a city/county shelter. it costs (looked it up) a good $3000 to adopt a yorkie from an AKC breeder

- oh wow I wish NYC was like this. NYC we were quoted $800 all in to adopt a non-pit bull from a local shelter. Usual price was $400-500, but they required an additional donation to move to the front of the waiting list. Otherwise the wait was months, and you basically had to take what was available when it was your turn. And then there were other incremental costs that they'd require you to incur. My pure bred was $1800.

For $360, you could take your pick of pit bull with scary behavioral issues. I love pit bulls and I shared an amazing one as an office pet, but owning one in the city can be challenging


- omg

now i get why there is all this trafficking in Dogs from here to Up North.

i love pits too - my Babe Ruth Dog was a huge pit, and she is the only one i ever had with temperament issues, but i had her under control even though she had to be walked with a prong because if she saw a cat, she would take off after it to kill it. but she was AWESOME with all kidz not just mine.

i got her as an itty bitty puppy but there is no way i would take any pit with behavior issues who is an adult even for free. or for money neither. i have no training in how to deal with Dogz who have been trained to be vicious already. i know a lot of michael vick's Dogz were rehabilitated and sent to live with families, but unfortunately some of them could not be re-trained and had to be put down

i am surprised they are actually allowed in NYC apartments
   391. . . . . . . Posted: January 14, 2022 at 01:13 PM (#6061080)
i love pits too - my Babe Ruth Dog was a huge pit, and she is the only one i ever had with temperament issues, but i had her under control even though she had to be walked with a prong because if she saw a cat, she would take off after it to kill it. but she was AWESOME with all kidz not just mine.


yeah our office pit was the sweetest girl ever, loved tummy rubs, obedient, even was good with other dogs - until one evening when she got wind of a coyote outside the office, dashed outside when someone came in and, well, her entrails were trailing out of her by the end of the fight, but the happy look on her face said, take a look at the other guy. Scariest thing ever. Thankfully they were able to sew her up and she spent the rest of her life in happy retirement with one of my colleagues chasing sun beams on the sofa. But the thing with a pit, you never know when today will be that day. They have it in them.
   392. base ball chick Posted: January 14, 2022 at 01:22 PM (#6061082)
zop

i guess i should not be surprised because at this point in my life the only thing left that can surprise me is a person born with full male genitals who gets pregnant

i didn't know the Dog shelters would pull a bait n switch like that. but supply and demand, i guess. we even have had these - hey folks we got so MANY Dogz we givin them away - days. that is all Dogz, not just pibbles

if you don't want a breeder or it costs too much, would just be easier to call one of the umpty Dog rescues here and pay the $300-$600 bucks here for a non-pit bull. of course, you'd have to find one of the transporters - yep, they got these transporters who volunteer - or drive down yourself and get it.

i get why you said effitt and went to a breeder
   393. base ball chick Posted: January 14, 2022 at 01:39 PM (#6061084)
even poodles go it in em

standard poodles are great snake hunters (not sure bout the smaller poodles) and jump with all 4s sideways like a mongoose.

unsurprised about dog going after the coyote. a canine but NOT another Dog and a threat t humans (she figures)
   394. Fancy Pants Handle struck out swinging Posted: January 14, 2022 at 03:02 PM (#6061099)
i think i like talking bout Dogz bettern covid and all the folks sick/dying etc

You should come hang out with us reprobates on discord. People post pictures of their dogs all the time. Naka just promised he will show you each of his 5... and I am pretty sure that is not a euphemism.
   395. Never Give an Inge (Dave) Posted: January 14, 2022 at 03:55 PM (#6061103)
We had a miniature poodle growing up...definitely saw the hunting instincts kick in a few times when he went after rabbits in our yard.
   396. . . . . . . Posted: January 14, 2022 at 04:27 PM (#6061106)
my little dachshund found a fledgling pigeon on the ground on a walk when he was six months old and killed it with one chomp. At the end of the day, dog's gonna dog.
   397. Tony S Posted: January 14, 2022 at 07:12 PM (#6061123)

I have friends who've adopted several greyhound rescues. Very sweet, relatively low-maintenance dogs -- I dog-sat them a few times and they were delightful. I learned quickly that uttering "China Wok" around them created immediate expectations of a neighborhood constitutional.

My PCR came back negative (24 hour turnaround -- a pleasant surprise). Still having occasional bouts of chills, my blood sugar is normal-bad rather than holy-crap bad, and I still look like Robert Smith after a bar fight... but at least I know it's not Covid.
   398. Fancy Pants Handle struck out swinging Posted: January 14, 2022 at 07:45 PM (#6061130)
I have friends who've adopted several greyhound rescues. Very sweet, relatively low-maintenance dogs -- I dog-sat them a few times and they were delightful. I learned quickly that uttering "China Wok" around them created immediate expectations of a neighborhood constitutional.

Sighthounds don't need a lot, but they do need regular, and preferably high intensity exercise. A 10 minute mad dash will do them more good than an hour at a gentle pace on a leash. Obviously not easy everywhere to get dogs the size of greyhounds that kind of exercise though. But if you can, they will likely quite happily sleep for 20 hours a day. Especially if you give them a blanket. Sighthounds love blankets.
   399. Never Give an Inge (Dave) Posted: January 14, 2022 at 09:09 PM (#6061139)

I have friends who've adopted several greyhound rescues. Very sweet, relatively low-maintenance dogs

My aunt and uncle adopted a couple of greyhounds when I was growing up (as well as a menagerie of other rescue animals). They were really sweet, gentle dogs.
   400. . . . . . . Posted: January 14, 2022 at 11:01 PM (#6061145)
Whippets are superb city dogs.
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