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Tuesday, January 22, 2019

Mo 1st unanimous Hall electee; 3 others voted in

Mariano Rivera stands alone in National Baseball Hall of Fame history as the only player ever voted in unanimously by the Baseball Writers’ Association of America. But he’ll be far from alone on the induction day dais, as the BBWAA has selected four players for entry into the hallowed Hall.

Rivera, Roy Halladay, Edgar Martinez and Mike Mussina were revealed Tuesday night as the third four-man BBWAA-voted Hall of Fame class in the past five years but only the sixth in history. Combined with the selections of Harold Baines and Lee Smith by the Today’s Game Era Committee in December, it’ll be a six-man class for the July 21 induction ceremony in Cooperstown, N.Y.—the second six-man group in as many years and the third this decade.

manchestermets Posted: January 22, 2019 at 06:32 PM | 149 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
  Tags: edgar martinez, hall of fame, mariano rivera, mike mussina, roy halladay

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   1. Hank Gillette Posted: January 22, 2019 at 07:33 PM (#5807909)
Congratulations to all the selected players. I am glad that the unanimous voting barrier has been breached. Rivera is not undeserving, but there are many other previous inductees who were also worthy of being elected unanimously. Whoever did not vote for Willie Mays or Henry Aaron should have had their voting rights revoked.
   2. Eric L Posted: January 22, 2019 at 07:38 PM (#5807910)
Many of them presumably had their rights revoked by the great scorer.
   3. It's regretful that PASTE was able to get out Posted: January 22, 2019 at 07:39 PM (#5807912)
On one hand, Mariano Rivera isn't one of the 100 best players in the Hall. But on the other, thank the forgotten gods we don't have to listen to any more sanctimony about unanimous votes. Anyway he was down near the bottom of my theoretical ballot this year, but he was on it. So no complaints from me.

I'm really glad Mussina made it in. He's thoroughly deserving of the honor, and I was concerned Halladay's appearance on the ballot was going to deny him.
   4. Zach Posted: January 22, 2019 at 07:40 PM (#5807914)
Oh, no. Now we're going to get campaigns for a unanimous vote every time some candidate comes down the pike. You can't prioritize your votes. You can't have a different value for relievers. You must vote with the mob, or Player X loses the distinction of being a unanimous selection!
   5. Hank Gillette Posted: January 22, 2019 at 07:44 PM (#5807916)
Well, in retrospect, it really doesn’t matter. You are either in, or out. But if there is no doubt that the player deserves to be in the Hall of Fame, he should be unanimous, or close to it. If we are going to put relievers in the Hall of Fame, then Rivera certainly belongs.

Obviously, I am not talking about marginal candidates where there are reasonable people who don’t believe that the player qualifies.
   6. Zach Posted: January 22, 2019 at 07:45 PM (#5807917)
I hope there aren't any doubters about Derek Jeter's defense out there, because Every Vote Counts!
   7. Joyful Calculus Instructor Posted: January 22, 2019 at 07:51 PM (#5807920)
Some writers used to write in Pete Rose. Those votes did not count.
   8. bachslunch Posted: January 22, 2019 at 07:52 PM (#5807922)
Congratulations to Mo, Halladay, Edgar, and Moose. All are plenty deserving.

Huge jump for Walker to 54.6%. He’ll have to duplicate this next year to get in. Not out of the realm of possibility, but not betting the rent on it. He should be in good shape via the Vets Committee, if not. McGriff got to 39.8% in his last chance and will probably be in good shape for a VC vote later on.

Pretty good hike for Schilling to 60.9%, just barely ahead of Bonds and Clemens.
   9. the Centaur Nipple Paradox (CoB). Posted: January 22, 2019 at 07:52 PM (#5807923)
Mussina making it in just made my day.

I think we were all almost certain about the other 3, but Moose was on the bubble.

When they started with Martinez and then went to Halladay, I was sure he'd have to wait another year.

When they started the next introduction and I realized it wasn't for Mo, I just bellowed out Moooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooose!

Just one of my favorite players, so very happy for him.
   10. Tulo's Fishy Mullet (mrams) Posted: January 22, 2019 at 07:54 PM (#5807924)
This appears to help the logjam a bit, no?
   11. JRVJ Posted: January 22, 2019 at 07:56 PM (#5807925)
1. The question should have never been if a player was the best ever. The question should have always been, is this player worthy of the Hall of Fame?

Mariano is clearly not the best player ever. But in light of the relievers already in the Hall, he was clearly a Hall of Famer.

2. Trout should now became an unanimous Hall of Famer, when he comes up.

The ceiling is broken.

3. Really surprised that Mussina made it in (happy about it, too). Arguably, Ballotgeddon is over.

4. I foresee a couple of empty or pretty lonely podiums in 2020, 2021 and 2022.




   12. It's regretful that PASTE was able to get out Posted: January 22, 2019 at 07:58 PM (#5807929)
4. I foresee a couple of empty or pretty lonely podiums in 2020, 2021 and 2022.


The entire point of the new Veterans Committees, of the sort that just voted Harold Baines in, is to ensure that doesn't happen.
   13. McCoy Posted: January 22, 2019 at 08:00 PM (#5807931)
I don't know if it is really true or not but this seems like the worst hall of class in a long time.

I don't think any of these guys would be number 1 or even #2 or #3 picks in any kind of game where you draft players to build a team.
   14. Walt Davis Posted: January 22, 2019 at 08:01 PM (#5807932)
This leaves Schilling (61%) as the top back-logger with 3 ballots to go so he's safely in. Ballots are getting very thin and surely we'll start seeing very low names/ballot:

2020: St Derek flies in. It's not clear any other debut candidate will even reach 5%, none have a chance at election. Possibly he'll be joined by Schilling.

2021: If Schilling is gone and Walker is gone either way, the top returnees would probably be Bonds and Clemens; or Vizquel who currently sits at 43%. The next top candidate would probably be Manny around 25%.The top debut candidates are Hudson, Buehrle and Torii Hunter. If Schilling is elected in 2020, 2021 probably sees nobody elected.

2022: Last year for B & C (& Schilling if still around). Top debuts are ARod, Ortiz and Rollins. Ortiz probably in first ballot with that competition.

2023: Beltran is the only remotely qualified debut so he should have a fairly easy time of it. Vizquel probably gets in this year.

Fearless prediction: Hunter and Rollins will do much better than anybody would think. I'll go so far as to predict that at least one of Rolen, Helton, Rollins, Hunter, Wagner manages to squeak over before their eligibility is up. Alternatively the anti-PEDs wall will break and B, C, ARod and Manny get elected but I just don't think that's going to happen.

An anti-roids voter could easily submit ballots with 1 name in 2020 and no names in 2021, 2022 and 2023 and be reasonably justified in doing so.
   15. John DiFool2 Posted: January 22, 2019 at 08:05 PM (#5807934)
Anyone else just a bit...perturbed that Tejada (MVP & 150 RBI year) fell off while another SS with a very similar WAR total got over 40%? Yeah, I know why, still doesn't quite seem kosher.
   16. SoSH U at work Posted: January 22, 2019 at 08:07 PM (#5807938)
Alternatively the anti-PEDs wall will break and B, C, ARod and Manny get elected


Even if the levee breaks for B and C, I don't think Manny can move all the way up (in part because of the failed tests after the ban that distinguish him from Barry and Roger).

Arod is another story. He's got the disadvantage of the post-testing suspension, but he'd have a lot of time on the ballot after B & C got in, plus the reinvention of his image via the broadcast booth.

I'll go so far as to predict that at least one of Rolen, Helton, Rollins, Hunter, Wagner manages to squeak over before their eligibility is up.


I predicted a few weeks back that Rolen would work his way up to election. I think either he or Helton will get the nod (or even both).


   17. McCoy Posted: January 22, 2019 at 08:07 PM (#5807939)
If Barry and Roger are still around by 2022 part of me thinks ARod will push them over the top and part of me thinks he'll hurt them.
   18. Joyful Calculus Instructor Posted: January 22, 2019 at 08:08 PM (#5807940)
Jeter will make it in 2020. Schilling will make it in 2021 if he keeps his foot out of his mouth for two years. 2022 will bring A-Rod, but probably won’t get in. He will get a very similar total to Bonds and Clemens who will be in their last years on the ballot. Omar Vizquel will probably take a little longer than that, but without many non-steroid guys left on the ballot, he might pick up steam a bit faster than previous guys. It seems like guys have been building support faster than they did before the purge.
Edit: missed Ortiz in 2022
   19. Srul Itza Posted: January 22, 2019 at 08:14 PM (#5807943)
Schilling will make it in 2021 if he keeps his foot out of his mouth for two years.


Hell of an if.
   20. Joyful Calculus Instructor Posted: January 22, 2019 at 08:15 PM (#5807944)
[16] Another advantage A-Rod has over Manny is that he was a much better players.
   21. Dag Nabbit at ExactlyAsOld.com Posted: January 22, 2019 at 08:19 PM (#5807948)
If anyone cares, there were 8.01 names/ballot this go-around.

The Tally Tracker had 234 ballots with 8.59 names/ballot.

The other voters: 191 ballots - 7.29 names/ballot.

Normally the anonymous guys are more selective, but that's a helluva split.

Bonds+Clemens+Schilling: 2.11 names/ballot on the Tracker. 1.41 names/ballot on the others. That's a little over half the difference right there.

Full ballot: overall, then (tracker/anonymous)
Mariano Rivera 100% (100% / 100%)
Roy Halladay 85.4% (92.7% / 76.4%)
Edgar Martínez 85.4% (89.7% / 80.1%)
Mike Mussina 76.7% (81.6% / 70.7%)
Curt Schilling 60.9% (70.1% / 49.7%)
Roger Clemens 59.5% (70.5% / 46.1%)
Barry Bonds 59.1% (70.1% / 45.5%)
Larry Walker 54.6% (65.8% / 40.8%)
Omar Vizquel 42.8% (38.0% / 41.9%)
Fred McGriff 39.8% (39.7% / 39.8%)
Manny Ramírez 22.8% (25.2% / 19.9%)
Jeff Kent 18.1% (17.5% / 18.8%)
Billy Wagner 16.7% (17.1% / 16.2%)
Todd Helton 16.5% (17.5% / 15.2%)
Scott Rolen 17.2% (20.9% / 12.6%)
Gary Sheffield 13.6% (13.7% / 13.6%)
Andy Pettitte 9.9% (6.4% / 14.1%)
Sammy Sosa 8.5% (11.1% / 5.2%)
Andruw Jones 7.5% (8.1% / 6.8%)
Michael Young 2.1% (1.3% / 3.1%)
Lance Berkman 1.2% (0.9% / 1.6%)
Miguel Tejada 1.2% (0.0% / 2.6%)
Roy Oswalt 0.9% (0.9% / 1.0%)
Plácido Polanco 0.5% (0.0% / 1.0%)

Bonds, Clemens, Schilling & Walker were the guys far less popular with the anonymous voters. Halladay also had a sizable gap.

Andy Pettitte seems to have inherited Don Mattingly's old status as the ex-Yankee who gets nominal support in the public vallots - but over twice as much support in the anonymous ones. Of the few with better scores in the anonymous ballots, Pettitte easily has the biggest gap. Then comes Vizquel.

Larry Walker actually had the biggest gap of all:
154/234 in the tracker
78/191 among the others.
   22. JRVJ Posted: January 22, 2019 at 08:19 PM (#5807949)
12, I could see Ted Simmons going in with Jeter next year (he got 11 of 16 votes, missing out by only one vote). I don't see any other returning candidates with a chance as part of the Modern Baseball committee (I would love it if Whitaker is added and makes it to the Hall, but who knows if he'll even be on the list of candidates).

In 2021, it's the Golden Age committee. I doubt anybody is going in (that era has been picked clean).

In 2022, it's the Today's Game committee (which just chose L. Smith & Baines). I suppose Piniella has a chance, though there probably will be extra candidates by then (that's above my pay grade).

So I see one, maybe two VC choices in the next 3 years. I stand by my comment about pretty empty or lonely podiums in the next 3 year period.
   23. Hank Gillette Posted: January 22, 2019 at 08:20 PM (#5807950)
I don't know if it is really true or not but this seems like the worst hall of class in a long time.

I don't think any of these guys would be number 1 or even #2 or #3 picks in any kind of game where you draft players to build a team.


That’s not really the criteria, though, is it? I think all of them would help even a championship team.

It also depends on what your pool is. All players from all of history? Their peers?
   24. asinwreck Posted: January 22, 2019 at 08:20 PM (#5807951)
Y'know what makes me happiest? Roland Hemond is alive to know that two players he drafted (Baines, Mussina) will enter the Hall on the same day next summer. How many general managers in the game's history could say that?
   25. Gonfalon Bubble Posted: January 22, 2019 at 08:21 PM (#5807952)
I hope there aren't any doubters about Derek Jeter's defense out there, because Every Vote Counts!

----

Some writers used to write in Pete Rose. Those votes did not count.



Pete Rose: “For when the One Great Scorer comes to mark against your name, He writes – not that you won or lost – but 'Fuck the Hall of Fame.'”
   26. Hank Gillette Posted: January 22, 2019 at 08:25 PM (#5807954)
2022 will bring A-Rod, but probably won’t get in. He will get a very similar total to Bonds and Clemens who will be in their last years on the ballot.


I mentioned this in the HOF Tracker thread, but I am wondering if there are enough voters who have not voted for Bonds and Clemens to punish them or to make a statement, who will vote for them in their last year of eligibility, knowing full well that they are qualified. If not, surely there will be some version of the Veterans committee that will eventually vote them in.
   27. Hank Gillette Posted: January 22, 2019 at 08:28 PM (#5807955)
Pete Rose: “For when the One Great Scorer comes to mark against your name, He writes – not that you won or lost – but '#### the Hall of Fame.'”


I thought it was: Pete Rose: “For when the One Great Scorer comes to mark against your name, He writes – not that you won or lost – but whether you beat the spread.”

Interesting: that was not censored in #25, but it was when I quoted it.
   28. McCoy Posted: January 22, 2019 at 08:28 PM (#5807956)
Re 24. Brian cashman. Sandy alderson. John Holland. Dallas green. Probably not get inducted on the same day but I bet a bunch of GMs have multiple hall of famers.
   29. "RMc", the superbatsman Posted: January 22, 2019 at 08:29 PM (#5807957)
I confidently said to my wife this morning that Mo wouldn't get elected unanimously because there's always some 89-year-old guy who sez, "I don't vote fer nobody on the first ballot, dang blame it!"

Now I owe her dinner.

Thanks, voters. Thanks a lot.
   30. McCoy Posted: January 22, 2019 at 08:30 PM (#5807959)
Re 23. It is for me. Outside of Mo the bunch is decidedly second tier and since Mo was a reliever he's never going to be scene as a truly great of baseball.
   31. Hank Gillette Posted: January 22, 2019 at 08:32 PM (#5807961)
Y'know what makes me happiest? Roland Hemond is alive to know that two players he drafted (Baines, Mussina) will enter the Hall on the same day next summer. How many general managers in the game's history could say that?


Maybe quite a few, if the second player doesn’t have to be any better than Baines.
   32. asinwreck Posted: January 22, 2019 at 08:34 PM (#5807962)
Re 24. Brian cashman. Sandy alderson. John Holland. Dallas green. Probably not get inducted on the same day but I bet a bunch of GMs have multiple hall of famers.

Oh, no doubt. But to see two of your draftees go in on the same day has to be pretty unusual given the small size of each class.
   33. Qufini Posted: January 22, 2019 at 08:35 PM (#5807964)
I’m delighted to have been wrong about Mussina most likely falling short. I’m also delighted to see Halladay go in on his ballot. Two of my favorite players. Mussina vs Colon on Opening Day at Camden Yards remains one of my favorite in-person baseball memories.
   34. bbmck Posted: January 22, 2019 at 08:36 PM (#5807965)
First time since the Class of 1964 are 4 players honored primarily for MLB pitching in one year:

2006 - Bruce Sutter, Ray Brown, Andy Cooper and Jose Mendez
1964 - Burleigh Grimes, John Ward, Red Faber and Tim Keefe
1946 - Rube Waddell, Jack Chesbro, Eddie Plank, Joe McGinnity and Ed Walsh; Clark Griffith is a pretty good pitcher but not officially inducted as one

The 1939 induction honors Walter Johnson, Christy Mathewson, Cy Young, Pete Alexander and Old Hoss Radbourn along with Al Spalding, Candy Cummings and Babe Ruth but no election year chooses 4 pitchers even counting all 8.
   35. Dag Nabbit at ExactlyAsOld.com Posted: January 22, 2019 at 08:36 PM (#5807966)
I don't know if it is really true or not but this seems like the worst hall of class in a long time.

I don't think any of these guys would be number 1 or even #2 or #3 picks in any kind of game where you draft players to build a team.


Disagree - but it brings up an interesting question: What are the worst Hall of Fame classes? Some nominees....:

1948: Pie Traynor and Herb Pennock
1970: Earle Combs, Ford Frick, Jesse Haines, Lou Boudreu
1971: Dave Bancroft, Chick Hafey, Harry Hooper, Joe Kelly, Rube Marquard, Jake Beckley, George Weiss, and Satchel Paige.
2013: Hank O'Day, Jacob Ruppert, Deacon White

1971 would be an easy winner if it wasn't for Satchel Paige there. He redeems a lot - but that might be the worst haul the VC ever had.

Boudreau's a decent pick, but the rest of the class of 1970 is weak. 2013 is the Induction of Who Could Care Less.

And arguably 2006, when they put in Bruce Sutter and the giant batch of Negro Leaguers.

I'd go with 1948 as the worst class ever. Both BBWAA picks, too.


   36. Esoteric Posted: January 22, 2019 at 08:39 PM (#5807968)
This was a great year for the HOF, for the voters, for baseball fans, for everyone. A fine class of inductees. Heck, I don't even care about Baines anymore.
   37. SoSH U at work Posted: January 22, 2019 at 08:40 PM (#5807970)
12, I could see Ted Simmons going in with Jeter next year (he got 11 of 16 votes, missing out by only one vote). I don't see any other returning candidates with a chance as part of the Modern Baseball committee (I would love it if Whitaker is added and makes it to the Hall, but who knows if he'll even be on the list of candidates).

In 2021, it's the Golden Age committee. I doubt anybody is going in (that era has been picked clean).

In 2022, it's the Today's Game committee (which just chose L. Smith & Baines). I suppose Piniella has a chance, though there probably will be extra candidates by then (that's above my pay grade).

So I see one, maybe two VC choices in the next 3 years. I stand by my comment about pretty empty or lonely podiums in the next 3 year period.


Simmons has a good chance. I'd be shocked if Whitaker isn't on the ballot (his exclusion from the previous one was noticed and commented upon extensively, unlike Grich's continued absence). McGriff should sail in the next time the Today's Game meets. The only impediment to that would be if Walker doesn't get elected by the BBWAA (though in that case they likely both make it).

The Golden Era committee wanted to elect anyone the last time around, but they couldn't agree on who. I suspect Allen and Oliva or Kaat will go in next time.

   38. Tom Nawrocki Posted: January 22, 2019 at 08:49 PM (#5807974)
You know who should have gone in unanimously? Roger Clemens.
   39. JRVJ Posted: January 22, 2019 at 08:57 PM (#5807979)
37, In re: Whitaker, again, I hope he's included and I truly hope he makes it.

But I have my doubts that he'll make it next year unless there's some very, very heavy horse trading (he deserves it, but he was treated very shabbily by the BBWAA and he has no track record with the VC).

IN re: Golden Age, if you look at their 2015 choices, they basically cancelled each other out (5 candidates got from 8 to 11 votes). That was not the case with Trammell, Morris and (just missed) Simmons, because the votes there consolidated with the top 3 candidates (14, 13 and 11 votes... and then Marvin Miller with 7, and nobody else with 7).

Could they choose one candidate? Sure, but I'm a bit sanguine about it.

IN re: the Today's Game committee, I would hope McGriff is included and I would hope he goes in. I really don't know how the determination is made about who is added and how quickly (though I guess Morris was added right after he was dropped from the BBWAA ballot).
   40. Walt Davis Posted: January 22, 2019 at 09:11 PM (#5807982)
On my celebratory side, very happy to see Walker sail past 50% and although I can't imagine he can close the gap to 75% in one year, it probably makes him a near-lock for some future VC. On his public/private votes, it's interesting in that, in his early years, he actually did slightly better with the private than the public. He's obviously benefited greatly from the thinning of the ballot -- seems he really was being left off of a lot of ballots due to lack of room.

Back to the "troubling" side -- even if it's just 3%, Michael Young's level of support among the private voters is depressing.

On GMs with multiple inductees on the same day ... Ford/Mantle springs to mind. Were Morris and Trammell drafted by the same guy? Pedro/Unit?
   41. Rally Posted: January 22, 2019 at 09:27 PM (#5807983)
Morris and Trammell were drafted in the same year, 3 rounds apart. So I assume the same guy. Jim Campbell was the GM in 1976, Bill Lajoie the scouting director.

Pedro signed with the Dodgers, Randy drafted by the Expos
   42. What did Billy Ripken have against ElRoy Face? Posted: January 22, 2019 at 09:27 PM (#5807984)
What would also be very troubling is if the VC makes the de facto standard for election "Get above around 40-50 percent from the writers on your last ballot and wait a few more years.*"

*Or, get 6-10 percent from the writers and be our buddy.
   43. Kiko Sakata Posted: January 22, 2019 at 09:35 PM (#5807987)
This appears to help the logjam a bit, no?


We're getting very close to there not being any logjam, if not already there. Basically, Derek Jeter takes all (almost all?) of Mariano Rivera's votes. Between the other three electees, McGriff aging off the ballot, and the handful of votes to sub-5% guys, I get an average of 2.93 ballot slots per voter freeing up. The only interesting first-year candidates next year besides Jeter are Bobby Abreu and Jason Giambi. So, lots of space for voters to add 2 or 3 returning candidates if they're so inclined. Be interesting to see how many of those newly-open slots get filled and how many just disappear.

If you're a strict anti-PEDs guy, sorting next year's ballot by JAWS, the #9 and #10 guys would be Cliff Lee and Omar Vizquel! If you're not voting for Bonds and Clemens, there's basically no excuse for not voting for anybody you think deserves to be in the Hall.

If you include PEDs guys, Sammy Sosa is #10 followed by Abreu, Sheffield, Pettitte, Giambi, and Kent. I can certainly see making a case for more than 10 (basically, I can see a case for everybody I just named) but we're definitely getting into very borderline cases (and/or cases where a simple JAWS may not be the best way to rank them).
   44. bobm Posted: January 22, 2019 at 09:35 PM (#5807988)
[35]

Average WAR by HOF induction class (data from B-R, all WAR for pitchers, average includes WAR for not-inducted-as-player players also.)


Year  Avg
1936  147 
  
1942  127 
  
1938  120 
  
1951  102 
  
1982   98 
1979   98 
  
1949   85 
1990   85 
  
2007   83 
  
2011   81 
1937   81 
  
1981   80 
2015   80 
2005   80 
  
1995   78 
  
2002   77 
1991   77 
  
1957   75 
  
1999   74 
1947   74 
1993   74 
  
1965   73 
2017   73 
1952   73 
  
2009   72 
2016   72 
1966   72 
  
1989   71 
  
2012   70 
1978   70 
  
2003   69 
2004   69 
1969   69 
  
1980   68 
  
1998   67 
1939   67 
  
1992   66 
  
1956   62 
1976   62 
  
1963   61 
1973   61 
  
1964   60 
1959   60 
2018   60 
1983   60 
  
1955   59 
1961   59 
  
1988   58 
  
2019   57 
  
1968   56 
1984   56 
  
1985   55 
1946   55 
  
1986   54 
  
2014   53 
  
1987   52 
1977   52 
  
1954   51 
1945   51 
2001   51 
  
1974   49 
  
1997   48 
1972   48 
  
1953   47 
  
1970   46 
  
1994   45 
  
2000   43 
1962   43 
  
1975   42 
  
1971   41 
1948   41 
  
1996   39 
  
2010   34 
  
1967   31 
  
2013   26 
  
2008   22 
  
2006   12 

   45. ERROR---Jolly Old St. Nick Posted: January 22, 2019 at 09:36 PM (#5807989)
This was a great year for the HOF, for the voters, for baseball fans, for everyone. A fine class of inductees. Heck, I don't even care about Baines anymore.

Neither do I. I was hoping to see at least Clemens and Schilling make it, but with Edgar and Mussina this was about as much as anyone could realistically hope for.
   46. bobm Posted: January 22, 2019 at 09:42 PM (#5807992)
All the classes with average WAR less than 1948 have people inducted not as players, short careers, etc.

1996 Jim Bunning 60
1996 Ned Hanlon 18

2010 Andre Dawson 65
2010 Whitey Herzog 3

1967 Branch Rickey 1
1967 Lloyd Waner 24
1967 Red Ruffing 69

2013 Deacon White 46
2013 Hank O'Day 6

2008 Billy Southworth 21
2008 Dick Williams 4
2008 Rich Gossage 41

2006 Bruce Sutter 24
2006 Willard Brown (1)
   47. Jundt Posted: January 22, 2019 at 09:45 PM (#5807993)
I'm glad the unanimous barrier had been broken. I hope going forward no-doubt candidates breeze through.

As a fan of the Baltimore-era Rochester Red Wings I'm also happy to see Mussina get in. He took the time to sign autographs for a kid like me, while others felt they were too good for it. Classy guy. I'll never forgive Carl Everett for breaking up his perfect game (while literally almost having a foot on home plate).

Can anyone easily look up how often Rivera came in either in the 8th, or came in with men on base? I've seen the argument he had it easy, but is it true?
   48. Joyful Calculus Instructor Posted: January 22, 2019 at 09:48 PM (#5807995)
[42] The VC never deemed Gil Hodges worthy and he got over 50%.
   49. The Yankee Clapper Posted: January 22, 2019 at 09:48 PM (#5807996)
I am wondering if there are enough voters who have not voted for Bonds and Clemens to punish them or to make a statement, who will vote for them in their last year of eligibility, knowing full well that they are qualified.

Have heard several voters suggest there is some "last ballot only" support for Bonds & Clemens, but no idea how prevalent such sentiment might be. With so much ballot space for their remaining years of eligibility, and the slow turnover of voters, there's a chance Bonds & Clemems could move up enough to be close, but opposition to their election is quite strong with a minority of the voters. The debate is likely to only intensify as the 10-year limit approaches.
   50. RoyalsRetro (AG#1F) Posted: January 22, 2019 at 10:05 PM (#5808001)
O's cap or Yankees cap for Mussina?
   51. bobm Posted: January 22, 2019 at 10:16 PM (#5808005)
[47]
Long saves account for the great majority for Wilhelm, Sutter, Gossage, and Fingers, but form increasingly smaller shares for the others, including less than 10% for both Hoffman and Wagner.


Link to article (scroll through it for this data)
   52. ERROR---Jolly Old St. Nick Posted: January 22, 2019 at 10:19 PM (#5808006)
O's cap or Yankees cap for Mussina?

Probably the Yankees, but I'd like to see it be the O's, since he had 7 of his best 9 years there.
   53. Walt Davis Posted: January 22, 2019 at 10:21 PM (#5808007)
#47 ... most of that info is available on Rivera's "advanced stats -- reliever pitching" page at b-r, at least for the regular season. (His postseason usage was much different, not summarized to this detail anywhere that I know of.) What it doesn't break down is whether the save situations were 1, 2 or 3-run leads.

He was used in a save situation about 2/3 of the time. He pitched for more than 3 outs about 20% of the time (less than 3 outs about 8-9%). He entered with runners on about 20% of the time. He entered with a lead over 80% of the time. He pitched on 0 days rest between 25-30% of the time. 29% of his inherited runners scored.

Those numbers are generally higher than Hoffman's. He came in with runners on about 18-19% of the time, pitched more than 3 outs about 15% of the time but only 20% of his IR scored.

But they pale in comparison to, for example, Sutter. He came in with runners on over 40% of the time, pitched more than 3 outs about 60% of the time ... but about 31% of his IR scored. Gossage entered with runners on over 50% of the time, pitched more than 3 outs more than 50% of the time, entered with a lead only a bit over 50% of the time, 33% of IRs scored.

Lee Smith straddled the end of the fireman era and the beginning of the closer era. He was about 30% runners on, 35% >3 outs, 70% with a lead, 28% IRS.

Mo's postseason usage would have been in the Smith-Sutter/Gossage range I suspect.

Compared with standard closers of his time, Mo probably faced tougher situations on average but he was still subject to the general pattern of closer usage relative to earlier eras.
   54. the Centaur Nipple Paradox (CoB). Posted: January 22, 2019 at 10:26 PM (#5808008)
O's cap or Yankees cap for Mussina?


From what Mussina said during his interview on MLB tv today, I think he's leaning towards letting the HoF make the decision.
   55. Jundt Posted: January 22, 2019 at 10:32 PM (#5808010)
53 - Walt

Thanks for the quick digging. I'm not trying to belittle Rivera at all, just examine how he was used in context of previous relievers.
   56. The Yankee Clapper Posted: January 22, 2019 at 10:32 PM (#5808011)
O's cap or Yankees cap for Mussina?

In a MLB Network interview Mussina said he wouldn't be in the Hall without both teams and he couldn't choose one over the other. I assume that's reasonable enough that the Hall will honor his wishes. Don't know if it's his choice between bare-headed & generic cap.

EDIT:
From what Mussina said during his interview on MLB tv today, I think he's leaning towards letting the HoF make the decision.

My take was that he didn't want to choose, not that he was leaving the decision to the Hall, although that does leave the Hall with a decision on whether to honor his request.
   57. Barry`s_Lazy_Boy Posted: January 22, 2019 at 10:35 PM (#5808013)
Super happy that Moose got in, he seemed so underrated in all the HOF talk.

Also super happy Edgar got in, though we expected it.
   58. SoSH U at work Posted: January 22, 2019 at 10:40 PM (#5808015)
My take was that he didn't want to choose, not that he was leaving the decision to the Hall, although that does leave the Hall with a decision on whether to honor his request.


My guess is they choose the O's for him. He was there longer. He was better there. And to the extent it has any bearing (which is questionable), it would be more useful to have him in one (since he's going in with Mo).

   59. bbmck Posted: January 22, 2019 at 10:49 PM (#5808017)
39+ main vote% since 1968 and reasonably modern election rules not in the HoF or on the 2020 ballot:

63.4 - 1983 Gil Hodges: also 60.1, 60.1, 59.7, 59.6, 58.5, 57.4, 56, 54.2, 51.9, 50, 49.4, 48.3 (the 13 highest by anyone) and 40.7
47.3 - 1988 Tony Oliva: also 40.7
43.1 - 1988 Roger Maris: also 42.6, 41.6
42.6 - 1995 Steve Garvey: also 41.6, 41.2

40.6 - 1981 Maury Wills
40.0 - 1970 Marty Marion
39.8 - 2019 Fred McGriff
39.3 - 1988 Harvey Kuenn

Next highest by a player not already listed is 35.6 - 1975 Phil Cavarretta
   60. Dingbat_Charlie Posted: January 22, 2019 at 10:55 PM (#5808018)
Here's to Moose, who was my favorite player for a very long time.
   61. eric Posted: January 22, 2019 at 11:03 PM (#5808020)
Congrats to all, and glad to see Moose finally in...but bewildered that the voters who keep stonewalling Schilling ushered Halladay in on the first try.

Concerning #s to me:

Private ballot vote %

Vizquel 48.7%
Clemens 46.1%
Bonds 45.5%
Walker 40.8%

There seems to be a pretty stark political divide of sorts between public and private voters. It will take a lot of these voters swinging to the other side for Walker to get in next year, and Clemens and Bonds after that. And a lot of those minds that need to be changed somehow think Omar Vizquel is a more deserving HOFer than any of those other three; don't ask me how that can get done, although I obviously hope it does.
   62. Tulo's Fishy Mullet (mrams) Posted: January 22, 2019 at 11:04 PM (#5808021)
So the first unanimous HOFer is a guy that blew a WS Game 7. I'm glad this is anti-100% thing is over, but that's pretty amusing. Not that Seaver, Cobb or other high 90% guys covered themselves in glory in October.
   63. Walt Davis Posted: January 22, 2019 at 11:11 PM (#5808022)
Hodges is a doubly-special case. He debuted on the 1969 ballot at 24%. After managing the Mets to a title in 69, that doubled to 48%. He'd dropped back to 41% when he died quite young followed by a jump to 57%. He basically stayed there, suffering a big drop in the year with Aaron and FRob, bouncing back in his final year. So I think it's most likely that if he hadn't managed the Miracle Met and hadn't passed away so early, he'd have stagnated somewhere south of 50%. Hard to say for sure of course. In some ways, he's similar to Schoendienst who debuted at 19% the same year, also saw a decent bump in 69 then basically stalled until he got to a VC. On the other hand, Early Wynn also debuted that year at 28% and rode his 300 wins to a fairly easy election with big jumps in 70, 71 and 72.

Not to be too morbid but maybe early death helps with the BBWAA but, ummm, has a negative impact on maintaining the personal networks that are so useful for the VC. Still I've always been a bit surprised a VC has yet to put Hodges in.
   64. Athletic Supporter is USDA certified lean Posted: January 22, 2019 at 11:11 PM (#5808023)
What does this have to do with Frank Tanana?

As starter:
Player A: 5.94 ERA
Player B: 3.67 ERA

As reliever:
Player A: 2.06 ERA
Player B: 2.42 ERA

Player A was a better reliever, but Player B was a much better starter. Looks pretty close, right?

Player A just got unanimously elected to the Hall of Fame. Player B is, you guessed it, Frank Tanana.
   65. Walt Davis Posted: January 22, 2019 at 11:22 PM (#5808025)
the voters who keep stonewalling Schilling ushered Halladay in on the first try.

2 CYAs and 10th all-time in shares (two 2nds, one 3rd). Not Schilling's fault but after Smoltz's easy first-ballot election, Halladay's success shouldn't have been too surprising. Also Schilling likely would have been in this year (and I suspect Moose on the cusp) if he hadn't opened his big mouth. In 2016, he was at 52%, 9% ahead of Moose and the #1 SP returning on the ballot. The next year, he and Moose basically swapped spots (45% and 52% respectively). My guess is he would have roughly tracked Edgar -- 60% in 2017, 70% in 2018.
   66. villageidiom Posted: January 22, 2019 at 11:29 PM (#5808028)
What is the reason for Lou Gehrig not being considered the first unanimous electee? From the link:
On Dec. 7, 1939, the BBWAA voted unanimously to suspend the waiting period and placed Gehrig in the Baseball Hall of Fame immediately “to commemorate the year in which he achieved his record.”
   67. ERROR---Jolly Old St. Nick Posted: January 22, 2019 at 11:29 PM (#5808029)
My guess is they choose the O's for him. He was there longer. He was better there. And to the extent it has any bearing (which is questionable), it would be more useful to have him in one (since he's going in with Mo).

That'd probably be for attendance reasons. It'd be the wrong reason but the right decision.
   68. Walt Davis Posted: January 22, 2019 at 11:35 PM (#5808030)
Just for kicks but more relevantly:

Mo as SP: 5.94 ERA
Goose: 4.49

Mo as RP: 2.06
Goose: 2.77

Goose has more innings in both roles. More directly, take Goose's 1975 and 1977-1985 and you've got:

Mo as closer: 1109 IP, 2.02 ERA
Goose peak: 975 IP, 2.06 ERA

That doesn't look like the difference between unanimity and waiting several years. Outside of that, Goose had some pretty mediocre stuff while Mo had one outstanding set-up season, one lousy mostly SP season ... and a postseason appearance or two. :-)

Most of the other relievers can't come close but this is entertaining:

Wilhelm, ages 38-49: 1084 IP, 2.17 ERA (incl 4 GS)
   69. Howie Menckel Posted: January 22, 2019 at 11:37 PM (#5808031)
From what Mussina said during his interview on MLB tv today, I think he's leaning towards letting the HoF make the decision.

I have mentioned before that I once was in the Yankees clubhouse for a postgame interview of a game won by Mussina. It was fascinating.

This is a Stanford alum who got a degree in economics there, then playing a child's game and answering what to him I suspect seemed like mind-numbingly dumb questions. But it was the path he chose, and he was nothing but professional. Keep in mind that his work environment was to a great extent full of sweaty alpha males for whom farting and telling war stories about the latest conquest was coin of the realm.

To say that he doesn't give a #### what 'cap' they put on his HOF plaque is probably a massive understatement.
:)

this is a guy who won 20 games in his final season to reach 270 career wins, making him at age 39 the oldest first-time 20-game winner in MLB history. the last 20-game winner to retire had been Sandy Koufax, who - well, he didn't exactly have a choice.

if the HOF is a burning desire, you try and Early Wynn your way to 300 just to be safe.
Mussina is just a different breed of cat.
   70. eric Posted: January 22, 2019 at 11:43 PM (#5808032)
Oh, to be clear, I'm 100% on board with Roy Halladay, Hall of Famer. I can just never quite get the voters. Doc might be 10th in CYA shares, but Bret Saberhagen and Johan Santana each have 2 CYAs and are 17th and 14th in shares, respectively, and were both one and done. Halladay has a lot more wins than those guys, but then Schilling blows him out of the water in most stats (and has three second-place finishes in CYA voting, and is 26th in shares, himself). As well Smoltz->Halladay seems a stranger implicative comparison than is Smoltz->Schilling given the respective shapes/volume of their careers; in fact Schilling is #1 on Smoltz's similar pitchers list. (#9 the other way for full disclosure; Doc nowhere to be found on either list, and vice versa)

All that is to say that the HOF voting still makes no sense to me.

Unrelated interesting tidbit I noted. The top 7 HOF vote-getters were in reverse order of their JAWS score.

Player - Vote % - JAWS
Rivera - 100% - 42.5
Martinez - 85.4% - 56.0
Halladay - 85.4% - 57.5
Mussina - 76.7% - 63.8
Schilling - 60.9% - 64.1
Clemens - 59.5% - 102.8
Bonds - 59.1% - 117.8

(Yes, I kow Martinez and Halladay tied. Sheesh, technicalities.)
   71. Kiko Sakata Posted: January 22, 2019 at 11:52 PM (#5808033)
Next highest by a player not already listed is 35.6 - 1975 Phil Cavarretta


An alumni of the high school my son will graduate from in June (Lane Tech, Chicago), so I'm a big fan. But what the hell did more than one-third of the 1975 HOF voters see in his record that suggested "Hall-of-Famer"?
   72. kwarren Posted: January 23, 2019 at 12:06 AM (#5808034)
You can't have a different value for relievers.
Well everybody does. Using JAWS Rivera is tied with David Wells as the 124th best pitcher all-time. If he hadn't bombed out as a starter in 1995, he would likely be off the ballot today with less than 5%. Actually he would probably never even have made it to a ballot.

Private ballot vote %

Vizquel 48.7%
Clemens 46.1%
Bonds 45.5%
Walker 40.8%
What can you say, the process is flawed.



   73. bbmck Posted: January 23, 2019 at 12:15 AM (#5808035)
Pitchers under 250 Wins (Bob Gibson 251) and under 225 Saves (Hoyt Wilhelm 228) debuting on the ballot who are elected by the BBWAA main vote since 1968:

91.1% - 2015 Pedro Martinez
86.9% - 1972 Sandy Koufax
85.4% - 2019 Roy Halladay
82.9% - 2015 John Smoltz
67.1% - 1973 Whitey Ford

58.1% - 1981 Juan Marichal
53.7% - 1985 Catfish Hunter
(38.8% - 2013 Curt Schilling)
21.0% - 1975 Don Drysdale
16.6% - 1968 Bob Lemon (11.9% in 1964)

Veteran selections:

38.1% - 1977 Jim Bunning
23.7% - 1968 Hal Newhouser (2.5% in 1962)
   74. kwarren Posted: January 23, 2019 at 12:18 AM (#5808036)
Unrelated interesting tidbit I noted. The top 7 HOF vote-getters were in reverse order of their JAWS score.

Player - Vote % - JAWS
Rivera - 100% - 42.5
Martinez - 85.4% - 56.0
Halladay - 85.4% - 57.5
Mussina - 76.7% - 63.8
Schilling - 60.9% - 64.1
Clemens - 59.5% - 102.8
Bonds - 59.1% - 117.8
Apparently, a lot of the voters like to be contrarians, and obviously don't need JAWS to help them evaluate talent, seeing as they are such baseball experts and all.
   75. RoyalsRetro (AG#1F) Posted: January 23, 2019 at 01:11 AM (#5808038)

So the first unanimous HOFer is a guy that blew a WS Game 7. I'm glad this is anti-100% thing is over, but that's pretty amusing. Not that Seaver, Cobb or other high 90% guys covered themselves in glory in October.


Like, who the f*** didn't vote for Griffey? Maddux?
   76. Zach Posted: January 23, 2019 at 02:28 AM (#5808039)
Having started out with a complaint, I should say that this looks like a very good class.

I just do not want "Unanimous Hall of Famer" to be a thing.
   77. bbmck Posted: January 23, 2019 at 02:29 AM (#5808040)
3+ MLB players (as opposed to Greg Maddux, Tom Glavine and Bobby Cox) who were teammates and got inducted on the same day. The 2006 class probably has some non-MLB teammate trios.

2019 - 1994 Orioles: Harold Baines, Mike Mussina, Lee Smith
1946 - 1902-12 Orphans/Cubs: Frank Chance, Johnny Evers, Joe Tinker
1945 - 1904 Giants: Roger Bresnahan, Dan Brouthers, Jim O'Rourke
1945 - 1895 Colonels: Dan Brouthers, Fred Clarke, Jimmy Collins
1945 - 1891 Reds: Dan Brouthers, Hugh Duffy, King Kelly
1939 - 1928 Athletics: Ty Cobb, Eddie Collins, Tris Speaker

Not many teams other than the Braves have 3+ MLB players elected in the previous 9 classes:

1993-2003 Braves: 2014 Tom Glavine (except 2003), 2018 Chipper Jones (except 1994), 2014 Greg Maddux, 2015 John Smoltz (except 2000)
2008 Braves: 2014 Tom Glavine, 2018 Chipper Jones, 2015 John Smoltz
2005 Mets: 2014 Tom Glavine, 2015 Pedro Martinez, 2016 Mike Piazza
2003 Mets: 2011 Roberto Alomar, 2014 Tom Glavine, 2016 Mike Piazza
1998 Astros: 2017 Jeff Bagwell, 2015 Craig Biggio, 2015 Randy Johnson

Adding the 10th class makes a lot more trios:

1989-1998 Mariners: 2016 Ken Griffey Jr, 2015 Randy Johnson, 2019 Edgar Martinez
1997-1998 Orioles: 2011 Roberto Alomar, 2019 Harold Baines, 2019 Mike Mussina
1994 Orioles: 2019 Harold Baines, 2019 Mike Mussina, 2019 Lee Smith
2005-2006 Yankees: 2015 Randy Johnson, 2019 Mike Mussina, 2019 Mariano Rivera
2008 Yankees: 2019 Mike Mussina, 2019 Mariano Rivera, 2017 Ivan Rodriguez
1999 Indians: 2011 Roberto Alomar, 2019 Harold Baines, 2018 Jim Thome
1997 Expos: 2018 Vladimir Guerrero, 2015 Pedro Martinez, 2019 Lee Smith
1987 Cubs: 2010 Andre Dawson, 2014 Greg Maddux, 2019 Lee Smith
   78. bachslunch Posted: January 23, 2019 at 07:47 AM (#5808045)
Fearless prediction: Hunter and Rollins will do much better than anybody would think. I'll go so far as to predict that at least one of Rolen, Helton, Rollins, Hunter, Wagner manages to squeak over before their eligibility is up. Alternatively the anti-PEDs wall will break and B, C, ARod and Manny get elected but I just don't think that's going to happen.


Not so sure on Hunter (I suspect he'll suffer the same fate of guys like Lofton and Edmunds), but I definitely think Rollins will do well and very likely will get elected. He's got the MVP award, three GGs, and respectable stolen base numbers. He hit reasonably well at his position, had a pretty lengthy career, and will have a wide open ballot. He's actually comparable to Vizquel but a better hitter:

Rollins: 46.3 WAR, 95 OPS+, 10240 PA
Vizquel: 45.6 WAR, 82 OPS+, 12013 PA

I think the non-sabermetric guys are going to vote for him in droves.

Also agreed that at least one of Rolen, Helton, or Wagner may make a charge in the next few years and get in. Maybe more than one.

Back to the "troubling" side -- even if it's just 3%, Michael Young's level of support among the private voters is depressing.


That goes even more strongly for Berkman, Oswalt, and Tejada as well. They should have had at least a couple chances on the ballot. Tejada has a PED issue, so I'm not surprised he dropped out fast, but still. He's every bit as good a candidate as Vizquel, probably better if you value hitting at a premium position.
   79. Blastin Posted: January 23, 2019 at 08:40 AM (#5808049)
Apparently, a lot of the voters like to be contrarians, and obviously don't need JAWS to help them evaluate talent, seeing as they are such baseball experts and all.


The guy who created JAWS is very happy and says he would have voted for him.

People complaining about Mo need to stuff it. He's just very, very well respected and we've long since passed the time when relievers were part of the hall. So travel back to the 80s if you want to live on that planet. On this one, he was deserving, and he broke the dumb tradition because... people like him a lot. Yeah, more than even some of the other (better) players.

And I'm glad it's him rather than Jeter.

   80. What did Billy Ripken have against ElRoy Face? Posted: January 23, 2019 at 09:01 AM (#5808053)
[42] The VC never deemed Gil Hodges worthy and he got over 50%.
Hodges was a lifetime and several iterations of the VC ago. People are saying McGriff and Walker are ‘locks’ for VC induction now based on their decent showing with the writers. Regardless of their merits as candidates, having the VC as a de facto backstop to eventually induct anyone who the writers kinda sorta liked (and Harold Baines!) is not a good thing, and more or less defeats the (stated) purpose of both the writers’ ballot and the VC to begin with.
   81. Adam Starblind Posted: January 23, 2019 at 09:37 AM (#5808062)
If he hadn't bombed out as a starter in 1995, he would likely be off the ballot today with less than 5%. Actually he would probably never even have made it to a ballot.


"Bombed out" is a little harsh. The dude started 10 games as a rookie and that was it.
   82. Steve Parris, Je t'aime Posted: January 23, 2019 at 09:43 AM (#5808067)
I definitely think Rollins will do well and very likely will get elected. He's got the MVP award, three GGs, and respectable stolen base numbers. He hit reasonably well at his position, had a pretty lengthy career, and will have a wide open ballot....
I think the non-sabermetric guys are going to vote for him in droves.


Just based on my recollection of broadcasters and writers reflecting on Rollins later in his career, I don't think he'll get the "felt like a HOFer" vote. He does have the one MVP, but otherwise his next best finish was 10th and he got votes in just five seasons. Only 3 ASGs. He does compare well with Vizquel, but that guy is sort of a unicorn for his games played and gold gloves.

People complaining about Mo need to stuff it....
And I'm glad it's him rather than Jeter.


Yes and YES.
   83. villageidiom Posted: January 23, 2019 at 09:48 AM (#5808069)
And I'm glad it's him rather than Jeter.
I have come here from the future, and I'd like to warn you about all the "How could Jeter not be unanimous? He's better than Rivera!" commentary that you have coming up. And after that, replace Jeter's name with that of any viable HoF candidate, in perpetuity. All this vote has done is to frame all future HoF discussions in a way that focuses on how good Mariano Rivera wasn't.
   84. Blastin Posted: January 23, 2019 at 10:05 AM (#5808079)
All this vote has done is to frame all future HoF discussions in a way that focuses on how good Mariano Rivera wasn't.


I will happily ignore all that because he's my favorite player.

He got the votes because people like him as a person, simple as that.
   85. TDF, trained monkey Posted: January 23, 2019 at 10:08 AM (#5808083)
2022: Last year for B & C (& Schilling if still around). Top debuts are ARod, Ortiz and Rollins. Ortiz probably in first ballot with that competition.
As pointed out on Twitter, if Bonds, Clemens, and Ortiz are all on the ballot in '22 it will be interesting to see how voters treat the only one of the three who actually failed a drug test.
   86. bbmck Posted: January 23, 2019 at 10:28 AM (#5808095)
Your Hall of Fame Class of 2019:

Player A: first 3 seasons: 231 IP, 5.77 ERA
Player B: first season: 67 IP, 5.51 ERA
Player C: first 6 starts: 37 IP, 4.62 ERA
Player D: first 7 starts: 46.1 IP, 4.08 ERA
Player E: first 3 seasons: 280 PA, 268/336/366
Player F: first season: 518 PA, 255/281/405

6 failed players who shouldn't have reached the ballot and might have gotten enough pity votes to get 6.1% if they had.
   87. What did Billy Ripken have against ElRoy Face? Posted: January 23, 2019 at 10:29 AM (#5808097)
As pointed out on Twitter, if Bonds, Clemens, and Ortiz are all on the ballot in '22 it will be interesting to see how voters treat the only one of the three who actually failed a drug test.
Oh, come on.
   88. Infinite Yost (Voxter) Posted: January 23, 2019 at 10:31 AM (#5808104)
But if there is no doubt that the player deserves to be in the Hall of Fame, he should be unanimous, or close to it.


The problem being, of course, that there should be some doubt about Rivera.
   89. ERROR---Jolly Old St. Nick Posted: January 23, 2019 at 10:33 AM (#5808106)
I have come here from the future, and I'd like to warn you about all the "How could Jeter not be unanimous? He's better than Rivera!" commentary that you have coming up. And after that, replace Jeter's name with that of any viable HoF candidate, in perpetuity. All this vote has done is to frame all future HoF discussions in a way that focuses on how good Mariano Rivera wasn't.

And the real world result: A few more 90-99%ers might be 100%ers. This is bad?
   90. ERROR---Jolly Old St. Nick Posted: January 23, 2019 at 10:36 AM (#5808109)
The problem being, of course, that there should be some doubt about Rivera.

That train left the station at about the same time that Murray Chass made his last appearance here.
   91. bachslunch Posted: January 23, 2019 at 10:52 AM (#5808116)
Post #85 is why this site needs a "like" button. I'd love to see the bozo voters hand-wave that one away. I'm sure some will find a way to, as the Chass's and Shaughnessy's out there with ballots have stupidity with no shame.
   92. SoSH U at work Posted: January 23, 2019 at 11:00 AM (#5808121)
As pointed out on Twitter, if Bonds, Clemens, and Ortiz are all on the ballot in '22 it will be interesting to see how voters treat the only one of the three who actually failed a drug test.


Bonds? Or is amps not drugs for the purpose of this exercise.

   93. Ithaca2323 Posted: January 23, 2019 at 11:57 AM (#5808151)
Regarding #69, I would agree that for Mussina, not caring about the cap on his plaque seems on brand. To be honest, listening to his interviews, he doesn't seem all that pumped to be in the actual Hall.
   94. Blastin Posted: January 23, 2019 at 12:09 PM (#5808155)
hat train left the station at about the same time that Murray Chass made his last appearance here.


Yep
   95. DanG Posted: January 23, 2019 at 12:16 PM (#5808158)
He got the votes because people like him as a person, simple as that.
This also accounts for A LOT of Vizquel's support. He's at 43% and rising because he's good enough, he's smart enough, and doggone it, people like him.
   96. bbmck Posted: January 23, 2019 at 12:21 PM (#5808163)
Just because something is written on twitter or in the New York Times or on espn.com doesn't mean it's true but generally the NY Times has more credibility if the article isn't written by Jayson Blair. By this standard Roy Halladay failed a drug test, his autopsy revealed amphetamine use and while he could have started using after he left a job that amphetamines can result in millions more in pay it certainly suggests that PEDs played a role in his playing career.

Barry Bonds failed drug test: A urine sample that Barry Bonds submitted as part of Major League Baseball's anonymous testing program in 2003 has come back positive for PEDs, according to a New York Times report.

Bonds provided samples that did not test positive under that program, but the samples were re-examined by federal authorities after they were seized in a 2004 raid, The Times reported on Tuesday, citing people familiar with the matter.

Citing a person who has reviewed the evidence in the case, The Times reported last week that authorities detected anabolic steroids in urine samples linked to Bonds that they gathered in their investigation. It remains unclear, the newspaper said, whether the '03 urine sample and the samples seized in the feds' raid in '04 are the same.

Bonds also admitted to the use of PEDs "the cream" and "the clear" but testified he was unaware they were PEDs.

David Ortiz is on 'the list'. But: "There were legitimate scientific questions about whether or not those were truly positives. If, in fact, there were test results like that today on a player and we tried to discipline them, there'd be a grievance over it. It would be vetted, tried, resolved. We didn't do that. Those issues and ambiguities were never resolved because we knew they didn't matter."

Manfred deferred to Hall of Fame voters to make judgments on Ortiz's career. But he did note that Ortiz "has never been a positive at any point under our program." MLB's drug-testing program was implemented in 2004.

Roger Clemens never failed a test or appeared on a list, hasn't been autopsied and Rob Manfred will never speak on his behalf. By and large Roger Clemens is Nolan Ryan or Randy Johnson but with a multi-million dollar investigation that returned a not guilty verdict. Of course in America being charged with a crime is generally considered an assumption of guilt by the general public and information is just something that gets in the way of a good tweet.
   97. Astroenteritis Posted: January 23, 2019 at 12:29 PM (#5808167)
I could see Ted Simmons going in with Jeter next year (he got 11 of 16 votes, missing out by only one vote).


This would make me so happy. Considering I'm not a fan of any of the teams he played on, I have a wildly disproportionate desire to see Simmons in the HOF. Don't know how to explain it, but he's one guy I really want to see get the call.
   98. Banta Posted: January 23, 2019 at 12:30 PM (#5808168)
People complaining about Mo need to stuff it


Seems like they have. I'm beyond shocked that there isn't a single voter that doesn't believe pitchers with only 1200 total innings shouldn't be in the Hall or that all relievers are failed starters and therefore second class...

Not to say that those opinions are right, but they do seem valid. It's almost disturbing to me that out of over 400 people no one represents this opinion.
   99. SoSH U at work Posted: January 23, 2019 at 12:31 PM (#5808169)

Barry Bonds failed drug test: A urine sample that Barry Bonds submitted as part of Major League Baseball's anonymous testing program in 2003 has come back positive for PEDs, according to a New York Times report.

Bonds provided samples that did not test positive under that program, but the samples were re-examined by federal authorities after they were seized in a 2004 raid, The Times reported on Tuesday, citing people familiar with the matter.

Citing a person who has reviewed the evidence in the case, The Times reported last week that authorities detected anabolic steroids in urine samples linked to Bonds that they gathered in their investigation. It remains unclear, the newspaper said, whether the '03 urine sample and the samples seized in the feds' raid in '04 are the same.

Bonds also admitted to the use of PEDs "the cream" and "the clear" but testified he was unaware they were PEDs.


Those aren't the reported amp tests I was was referring to.
   100. SoSH U at work Posted: January 23, 2019 at 12:34 PM (#5808170)
Not to say that those opinions are right, but they do seem valid. It's almost disturbing to me that out of over 400 people no one represents this opinion.


I'm sure many had that opinion before the Hall ushered in Fingers, Sutter, Gossage, Hoffman and Smith. Once the door was open that wide, it's hard to take a hardline on the only reliever who was a legitimate candidate on value.
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