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Tuesday, January 19, 2010

Molina Signs 1-Year Deal To Stay With SF Giants

SLOW BREAKING NEWS!

In a surprising twist, Bengie Molina has signed a one-year, $4.5 million contract to stay with the San Francisco Giants, CBS 5 has learned.

Sources outlined terms of the deal Tuesday that keeps the free-agent catcher in a Giants uniform.

In recent weeks, the 35-year-old Molina - after expressing disappointment with the Giants franchise - was reportedly close to reaching a two-year deal with the New York Mets.

Repoz Posted: January 19, 2010 at 10:13 PM | 224 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
  Tags: business, giants

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   1. Alex_Lewis Posted: January 19, 2010 at 10:17 PM (#3441485)
I can't have a rational response to this signing. All I'm going to say is that I hate it with every fiber of my being.
   2. More Dewey is Always Good Posted: January 19, 2010 at 10:18 PM (#3441486)
I'm still waiting for the announcement he's signing with the Mets. Sportswriters are never wrong, dammit!
   3. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: January 19, 2010 at 10:18 PM (#3441487)
Sabean looking to reclaim his place in the worst GM competition? Dayton Moore has set a high bar.

Just trade Posey now before you f-up his career.
   4. Sam M. Posted: January 19, 2010 at 10:18 PM (#3441488)
That is absolutely hilarious. A one year deal! At less money than the Mets were offering.

Wow. Just . . . wow.

Talk about saving Omar from himself.

And the amazing thing is, these drawn-out negotiations were only the second-slowest thing about Bengie Molina.

Oh, wait. The really amazing thing is that the Giants actually have a catching prospect whom they shouldn't block by signing a meh player like Molina. You have to adore Sabean.
   5. Orange & Blue Velvet Posted: January 19, 2010 at 10:19 PM (#3441489)
Everything's coming up Mets!
   6. Sam M. Posted: January 19, 2010 at 10:20 PM (#3441491)
Time to tear up the list, Lassus.
   7. Tripon Posted: January 19, 2010 at 10:21 PM (#3441495)
The Mets should see if Posey can be had for Thole.

That's how ###### up this is.
   8. asinwreck Posted: January 19, 2010 at 10:22 PM (#3441494)
Perhaps he was more comfortable with the plate tectonics experts at the Richmond Field Station than anyone near Flushing.
   9. Srul Itza Posted: January 19, 2010 at 10:22 PM (#3441496)
What does this say about the Mets, that Benjie would rather take less money and one year less, from a team he criticized, than play for the Mets.

Is it a comment on Benjie, or on the Mets?
   10. Bring Me the Head of Alfredo Griffin (Vlad) Posted: January 19, 2010 at 10:22 PM (#3441497)
That is absolutely hilarious. A one year deal! At less money than the Mets were offering.


Even moving at top speed, he couldn't get to New York before the start of the season, so he was kind of stuck.
   11. Alex_Lewis Posted: January 19, 2010 at 10:23 PM (#3441498)
Oh, wait. The really amazing thing is that the Giants actually have a catching prospect whom they shouldn't block by signing a meh player like Molina. You have to adore Sabean.


It's funny when it's not your team.
   12. PreservedFish Posted: January 19, 2010 at 10:25 PM (#3441500)
Talk about saving Omar from himself.


I say, give Omar credit! He gave Molina a firm offer and never budged.

I guess he didn't worship Molina to nearly the extent supposed. It seems possible that he attached a fairly accurate value to Molina and just stayed at that number.

(Now let's watch him panic and do something nutty)
   13. danielj Posted: January 19, 2010 at 10:26 PM (#3441501)
Yes!!!!

I feel bad for Posey, but screw him, he's not a Met.
   14. More Dewey is Always Good Posted: January 19, 2010 at 10:26 PM (#3441504)
(Now let's watch him panic and so something nutty)

I bet Ken Williams would listen to offers for AJ Pierzynski...
   15. Bring Me the Head of Alfredo Griffin (Vlad) Posted: January 19, 2010 at 10:26 PM (#3441505)
(Now let's watch him panic and do something nutty)


Wright to catch, Tatis to play third?
   16. The Interdimensional Council of Rickey!'s Posted: January 19, 2010 at 10:28 PM (#3441507)
I'm torn. On the one hand, Bengie Molina just declared publicly that he was too good to take the Mets' money, which is hilarious. But on the other, this probably makes the Mets less awful next year, which is sad.
   17. Alex_Lewis Posted: January 19, 2010 at 10:33 PM (#3441511)
I bet Ken Williams would listen to offers for AJ Pierzynski...


Shut your dirty mouth.
   18. Sam M. Posted: January 19, 2010 at 10:36 PM (#3441514)
(Now let's watch him panic and do something nutty)

J.C. Martin!
Duffy Dyer!
Wes Westrum!
Choo Choo Friggin' Coleman!

I say line up the old-timers, 162 of them, and let 'em catch one game each. They'll drop like flies, but it'll be the greatest spectacle baseball has seen since Eddie Gaedel.
   19. PreservedFish Posted: January 19, 2010 at 10:37 PM (#3441515)
But on the other, this probably makes the Mets less awful next year, which is sad.


I'm not actually sure about this. Molina is reliably mediocre and a stupid fat ####. BUt he is reliable. If they go into camp with a Santos/Thole/Blanco competition for the starting spot there is a real possibility of the position being a gaping <650 OPS wound all season long.
   20. More Dewey is Always Good Posted: January 19, 2010 at 10:40 PM (#3441517)
they go into camp with a Santos/Thole/Blanco competition for the starting spot there is a real possibility of the position being a gaping <650 OPS wound all season long.

I'm telling you, AJ Pieryznski.
   21. Autobahn Posted: January 19, 2010 at 10:42 PM (#3441519)
Oh, wait. The really amazing thing is that the Giants actually have a catching prospect whom they shouldn't block by signing a meh player like Molina. You have to adore Sabean.


Wait a minute isn't signing a meh player like Molina cheaply is what you are supposed to do when you have a catching prospect entering the majors?

If Posey falls flat on his face you have a veteran around who can take over quickly and if Posey has a good season you have someone who you can use to limit his innings behind the plate.

And on a one year deal you aren't locked into the downward spiral like the Mets would have been.
   22. Sam M. Posted: January 19, 2010 at 10:42 PM (#3441520)
If they go into camp with a Santos/Thole/Blanco competition for the starting spot there is a real possibility of the position being a gaping <650 OPS wound all season long.

Can you say, "Rod Barajas"? I knew you could . . . .
   23. Flynn Posted: January 19, 2010 at 10:43 PM (#3441521)
As I said in the Molina thread, with the stars of this team all 25 and under it is clear that it is in the best interests of the Giants in the short-term, much less the long-term, that the team stink this year and Sabean gets canned.

They could have signed Jason Bay for the money they blew on crappy free agents this year.
   24. Sam M. Posted: January 19, 2010 at 10:45 PM (#3441523)
wait a minute isn't signing a meh player like Molina cheaply is what you are supposed to do when you have a catching prospect entering the majors?

If Posey falls flat on his face you have a veteran around who can take over quickly and if Posey has a good season you have someone who you can use to limit his innings behind the plate.


This would be awesome if the Giants had signed Molina as Posey-fails insurance. But there is no way on Earth Molina signed there, with a starting job his for the taking in New York, unless Sabean gave explicit assurances that he would start in San Francisco. This wasn't done to have Molina as a failsafe. This was done to delay Posey for another year.
   25. Win one for Agrippa (haplo53) Posted: January 19, 2010 at 10:45 PM (#3441524)
Poor Mets. They don't give out a dopey multi-year deal to this guy when the whole world expected them to, and the snarkosphere still rumbles to life and ####s on them.
   26. Flynn Posted: January 19, 2010 at 10:47 PM (#3441526)
If Posey falls flat on his face you have a veteran around who can take over quickly and if Posey has a good season you have someone who you can use to limit his innings behind the plate.

And on a one year deal you aren't locked into the downward spiral.


I take it you are not familiar with the conduct of one Bengie Molina last August & September, 2009.
   27. PreservedFish Posted: January 19, 2010 at 10:47 PM (#3441527)
This obese dog is one of the top 5 Google image matches for Rod Barajas.
   28. hokieneer Posted: January 19, 2010 at 10:47 PM (#3441528)
No way
   29. JJ1986 Posted: January 19, 2010 at 10:47 PM (#3441529)
If they go into camp with a Santos/Thole/Blanco competition for the starting spot there is a real possibility of the position being a gaping <650 OPS wound all season long.

Molina is a godawful baserunner and a sub-par defensive catcher. I wouldn't be surprised if Blanco's just as valuable.
   30. Alex_Lewis Posted: January 19, 2010 at 10:47 PM (#3441530)
This would be awesome if the Giants had signed Molina as Posey-fails insurance. But there is no way on Earth Molina signed there, with a starting job his for the taking in New York, unless Sabean gave explicit assurances that he would start in San Francisco. This wasn't done to have Molina as a failsafe. This was done to delay Posey for another year.


And not only that, but he'll hit cleanup. Sigh.
   31. North Side Chicago Expatriate Giants Fan Posted: January 19, 2010 at 10:48 PM (#3441531)
NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO
   32. Steve Treder Posted: January 19, 2010 at 10:49 PM (#3441534)
#%&@!
   33. wcw Posted: January 19, 2010 at 10:50 PM (#3441535)
How is this so terrible for the Giants? I heart Posey as much as I have any Giants position prospect since Will Freaking Clark, and I don't think this is a bad move. Posey has barely played above A ball. Molina can still hit a little, can still catch a little, and is worth a few ducats as a result. A one-year deal at or below market rate as Eli Whiteside insurance if Posey doesn't break out as expected seems just fine to me.
   34. Autobahn Posted: January 19, 2010 at 10:50 PM (#3441536)
Ah i forgot the "Sabean factor" in my analysis.
   35. PreservedFish Posted: January 19, 2010 at 10:50 PM (#3441537)
Molina is a godawful baserunner and a sub-par defensive catcher. I wouldn't be surprised if Blanco's just as valuable.


It's possible. But it also seems that if you start Blanco there is a 50% chance of the media/blogosphere/FAN/etc demanding a move 6 weeks into the season.
   36. Jamal Touch em All Posted: January 19, 2010 at 10:54 PM (#3441542)
Couldn't this be another instance where a Free Agent had the caret pulled out from under him (albeit this is a very difficult metaphor to imagine with Molina standing on that carpet)?

Sounds like Molina declined the latest Mets offer, expecting a counter offer. He probably thought he had another suitor out there with a similar offer as well. Mets then counter with "we'll pass - we are focusing on Pineiro now"...other suitor says same thing, or if it was only the Giants they now say "our 2 year $10M offer is now 1 year $4.5M - take it or leave it". With the market now imploded Molina returns with his tail between his legs, but ready once again to bat cleanup.
   37. PreservedFish Posted: January 19, 2010 at 10:58 PM (#3441545)
I think it's most likely that the Mets were only ever an option if they guaranteed a second year.
   38. Banta Posted: January 19, 2010 at 11:00 PM (#3441548)
CLOWNED X2!
   39. Lassus Posted: January 19, 2010 at 11:02 PM (#3441551)
I....


But....

I mean.....



I swear, I didn't actually feel my eyes stinging from joy at this news.



Where's snapper? Maybe there is a god.


Everyone should be thrilled, because now I don't have to initiate "THE PLAN" and you all get to live.
   40. Something Other Posted: January 19, 2010 at 11:03 PM (#3441554)
I guess he didn't worship Molina to nearly the extent supposed. It seems possible that he attached a fairly accurate value to Molina and just stayed at that number.

(Now let's watch him panic and do something nutty)
Yeah. Like sign a decent starting position. An accurate value to Molina is whatever you figure half a win is worth.

Can you say, "Rod Barajas"? I knew you could . . . .
Which iirc would leave the Mets without a catcher who can hit RHP with an OPS above .700, but it's a little late to worry about that one. They pretty much just need a body, and Rod will do.
   41. Home Run Teal & Black Black Black Gone! Posted: January 19, 2010 at 11:04 PM (#3441556)
So are the Mets successful for avoiding Benjie or are they miserable failures for losing out on Benjie?

This. A pickle.
   42. Juan V Posted: January 19, 2010 at 11:06 PM (#3441558)
I hate this signing for everyone involved.
   43. Flynn Posted: January 19, 2010 at 11:09 PM (#3441560)
How is this so terrible for the Giants? I heart Posey as much as I have any Giants position prospect since Will Freaking Clark, and I don't think this is a bad move. Posey has barely played above A ball. Molina can still hit a little, can still catch a little, and is worth a few ducats as a result. A one-year deal at or below market rate as Eli Whiteside insurance if Posey doesn't break out as expected seems just fine to me.

Let's see..

Molina can't really hit with that .285 OBP of his (some people don't like his defense either) and he's a 35 year old overweight catcher. He's a prime candidate to completely suck out loud next year. He's also shown last year that he's not one to go gracefully into that good night, meaning there is little chance he slides into a backup role if Posey plays well. Posey is the best catching prospect in the National League - he de-effing-stroyed every class he's played in - and is making less than a tenth of Molina's salary.

The Giants spent $16 million this year on Uribe, Huff, DeRosa and Molina. None of whom may be above average offensively. They'd have been better off playing the kids with that money, or playing some of the kids and signing Jason Bay.
   44. Elvis Posted: January 19, 2010 at 11:11 PM (#3441562)
Great news for the Mets. Now if they sign Garland instead of Pineiro, I'll really be happy.
   45. JPWF13 Posted: January 19, 2010 at 11:13 PM (#3441565)
The Giants spent $16 million this year on Uribe, Huff, DeRosa and Molina. None of whom might be above average offensively.


I think you meant to say it's quite possible that none will be above average offensively, it is on the other hand it is certainly possible that DeRosa or Huff might cough up a 100+ OPS+
   46. JPWF13 Posted: January 19, 2010 at 11:17 PM (#3441570)
Great news for the Mets. Now if they sign Garland instead of Pineiro, I'll really be happy.


I'd be really really happy if the Mets trade Frenchy, Parnell, Castillo and $ to the Giants for Posey and Lewis.
   47. Flynn Posted: January 19, 2010 at 11:17 PM (#3441571)
yeah. I suck at syntax.
   48. You Know Nothing JT Snow (YR) Posted: January 19, 2010 at 11:20 PM (#3441573)
I repeatedly find myself wondering how I'd be able to take this sort of persistent front office buffoonery if I were a Giants fan. Almost every move they've made in the last 5 years had me rolling my eyes and asking myself, "I wonder what the heck they're thinking here?"
   49. Hombre Brotani Posted: January 19, 2010 at 11:21 PM (#3441576)
Molina can't really hit with that .285 OBP of his (some people don't like his defense either) and he's a 35 year old overweight catcher. He's a prime candidate to completely suck out loud next year. He's also shown last year that he's not one to go gracefully into that good night, meaning there is little chance he slides into a backup role if Posey plays well. Posey is the best catching prospect in the National League - he de-effing-stroyed every class he's played in - and is making less than a tenth of Molina's salary.
It's a one year deal, it lets Posey start out the year in the minors instead of having the pressure to be the Opening Day starter, and lets the Giants take their time with Posey. And if Posey starts hitting like crazy, there's no law that says you still have to play Molina over Posey. It's a freaking one year deal. Chill.
   50. . Posted: January 19, 2010 at 11:22 PM (#3441577)
The Giants spent $16 million this year on Uribe, Huff, DeRosa and Molina. None of whom might be above average offensively. They'd have been better off playing the kids with that money, or playing some of the kids and signing Jason Bay.

Or putting it toward the mortgage.

With an offense like the Giants', DeRosa isn't useless.
   51. . Posted: January 19, 2010 at 11:26 PM (#3441581)
I repeatedly find myself wondering how I'd be able to take this sort of persistent front office buffoonery if I were a Giants fan. Almost every move they've made in the last 5 years had me rolling my eyes and asking myself, "I wonder what the heck they're thinking here?"

And yet, in the midst of all that buffoonery, they've gone from 71 wins to 72 to 88 from 2007-09. They could win the division this year.
   52. Alex_Lewis Posted: January 19, 2010 at 11:29 PM (#3441588)
And if Posey starts hitting like crazy, there's no law that says you still have to play Molina over Posey. It's a freaking one year deal. Chill.


Next time you're in town, remind me to introduce to one Bochy, Bruce.
   53. Rich Rifkin Posted: January 19, 2010 at 11:29 PM (#3441589)
"How is this so terrible for the Giants?."

"Molina can't really hit with that .285 OBP of his (some people don't like his defense either) and he's a 35 year old overweight catcher. He's a prime candidate to completely suck out loud next year."
With the caveat that these "value" figures from Fangraphs do not account for defense (and Benjie is not a good backstop any longer), he did not rank too badly in 2009 among NL catchers:
Brian McCann -- $19.6
Yadier Molina -- $15.3
Miguel Montero -- $14.8
John Baker -- $11
Carlos Ruiz -- $10
Russell Martin -- $9.6
Chris Iannetta -- $9.2
Bengie Molina -- $8.1
Ronny Paulino -- $7.4
Nick Hundley -- $7.1
   54. Alex_Lewis Posted: January 19, 2010 at 11:32 PM (#3441595)
And yet, in the midst of all that buffoonery, they've gone from 71 wins to 72 to 88 from 2007-09. They could win the division this year.


I hear what you're saying, but that's a bit of cherry picking when it comes to the Giants record. They tailspun (I winged that one) their way to that 71 win record. Brian Sabean deserves a lot of credit for that little meltdown.
   55. Something Other Posted: January 19, 2010 at 11:34 PM (#3441597)
That's a caveat on the order of, "Don't walk on the grass (because it's sown with anti-personnel mines)."
   56. wcw Posted: January 19, 2010 at 11:35 PM (#3441598)
In re Molina's bat, it's putrid, but he's a catcher. Eli Whiteside is your alternative backup. I say, take the Molina.

In re the Giants addlepated insistence on paying up for middlin' talent, in the abstract I agree. I am a big fan of a focus on a barbell salary curve, where you maximize near-free talent so you can pay up for the real stars who are so good they outperform even a hefty salary. Thing is, this is a high-leverage game where you need to distinguish the real stars from the merely very good, or you lose one of the major advantages of this approach.

Bay is a perfect example: he's good, but I don't think he outperforms that salary.
   57. Hombre Brotani Posted: January 19, 2010 at 11:37 PM (#3441601)
Next time you're in town, remind me to introduce to one Bochy, Bruce.
Please. Bochy is a solid manager. Hell, if I were the Giants, I'd be doing a little dance over the Molina signing, precisely for the reasons I mentioned. I still can't believe you guys are ######## about a one-year, $4.5 million deal for a perfectly adequate placeholder for Posey. Just unbelievable.
   58. You Know Nothing JT Snow (YR) Posted: January 19, 2010 at 11:41 PM (#3441606)
And yet, in the midst of all that buffoonery, they've gone from 71 wins to 72 to 88 from 2007-09. They could win the division this year.


That's the great thing about drafting Tim Lincecum and Matt Cain, ain't it?
   59. Steve Treder Posted: January 19, 2010 at 11:41 PM (#3441607)
The Giants spent $16 million this year on Uribe, Huff, DeRosa and Molina. None of whom might be above average offensively.

I think you meant to say it's quite possible that none will be above average offensively, it is on the other hand it is certainly possible that DeRosa or Huff might cough up a 100+ OPS+

DeRosa and Huff might very well both cough up a 100+ OPS+. The issue is that at left field and first base, a 100 OPS+ is well below average.

This is precisely the sort of clogging up the roster/payroll with proven-veteran mediocrity that is Sabean at his worst. None of these guys are likely to be terrible, but none will be good. It's just a waste of space and resources that could be leveraged far more efficiently.
   60. Rich Rifkin Posted: January 19, 2010 at 11:42 PM (#3441608)
#55 -- Maybe you could convince me I am wrong, but I am not sure catcher defense has all that great a variation from best to worst outside of the ability to hold baserunners and throw out base-stealers. Benjie is a big fat slug. But he can "call the game" as well as other catchers in the NL, AFAIK. He does not let an inordinate number of wild pitches get by him. The Giants were average in passed balls and SB%.

I am not saying I favor this signing, BTW. I think the Giants should have gone after Miguel Olivo. But he's obviously too young for San Francisco. The Rockies signed Olivo for $2 million for 2010 (plus a buyout thingy for 2011) to back-up some other Rockies catcher the Giants got rid of because he was not a proven veteran.
   61. RoyalsRetro (AG#1F) Posted: January 19, 2010 at 11:43 PM (#3441610)
As the guy that drafted Buster Posey in the DMB league, let me say this royally sucks.
   62. Alex_Lewis Posted: January 19, 2010 at 11:50 PM (#3441619)
Please. Bochy is a solid manager. Hell, if I were the Giants, I'd be doing a little dance over the Molina signing, precisely for the reasons I mentioned. I still can't believe you guys are ######## about a one-year, $4.5 million deal for a perfectly adequate placeholder for Posey. Just unbelievable.


I like Bochy a lot more than most, but if you think that Posey is ever, for any reason other than injury, going to play over Bengie Molina, you're dead wrong.

The Bengie you remember is not the Bengie that exists today. It's painful to watch that man play baseball. Even if you were to somehow convince me that he's the best option out of the veteran catch pack, I'd still hate the move.
   63. JPWF13 Posted: January 19, 2010 at 11:52 PM (#3441623)
None of these guys are likely to be terrible, but none will be good.


Oh I'm pretty sure that at least one will, in fact, be terrible in 2010.
   64. JPWF13 Posted: January 19, 2010 at 11:55 PM (#3441628)
I think I have to bookmark this thread for sometime in July, if Posey had 50 PAs and Bengie 250..., or vice versa, some primates are gonna have some explaining to do.
   65. Steve Treder Posted: January 19, 2010 at 11:56 PM (#3441632)
Oh I'm pretty sure that at least one will, in fact, be terrible in 2010.

Well, sure, at least one out of four unproven young guys has a good chance of being terrible in 2010, also. But the real problem with these sorts of Sabean signings isn't the downside, which is fairly minimal, it's the complete lack of upside, that an an unproven young guy brings to the table at a fraction of the cost.
   66. Something Other Posted: January 19, 2010 at 11:56 PM (#3441633)
I'm not being entirely serious with the landmine comment, but if DrivelineMechanics' numbers are legit and we dock Molina 5 runs for defense and 5 runs for being one of the worst baserunners in the majors, then another 5 runs for being old and getting older, his apparent 2 WAR offense makes him only a 0.5 WAR player. And that's if he doesn't fall off a cliff and if you don't dock him some more for having about the lowest OBP of any regular in the majors, which I'm not sure WAR and wOBA fully account for.
   67. Hombre Brotani Posted: January 19, 2010 at 11:59 PM (#3441637)
I like Bochy a lot more than most, but if you think that Posey is ever, for any reason other than injury, going to play over Bengie Molina, you're dead wrong.
Really? I'll put up a fair amount of money that says Posey catches more games than Molina does in the second half of the season.

Or at least a year's sponsorship of the Ben Molina page on BBRef.com.
   68. Steve Phillips' Hot Cougar (DrStankus) Posted: January 20, 2010 at 12:00 AM (#3441639)
#### you Brian Sabean. #### you.
   69. Shooty would run in but these bone spurs hurt! Posted: January 20, 2010 at 12:03 AM (#3441643)
So how much has Sabean spent on crap this offseason? Molina, DeRosa, Uribe and Huff. That's a lot of money for a lot of running in place. ####### stupid. A shitty catcher, a shitty left fielder, a utility guy and a shitty half of a first base platoon. Well done, Sabes, well done.
   70. Walt Davis Posted: January 20, 2010 at 12:05 AM (#3441645)
I'm digging Sam's "college of catchers" idea. But no reason to not open it up to a few other NY celebrities:

Patrick Ewing
Billy Joel
Garrett Morris (is he still alive?)
James Lipton
Bernadette Peters (Liza's surely too old)
Frank Rich

and, of course, JD Salinger

With any luck, #s 2, 4 and 6 will meet their demise.
   71. Steve Treder Posted: January 20, 2010 at 12:05 AM (#3441647)
I'll put up a fair amount of money that says Posey catches more games than Molina does in the second half of the season.

Let's suppose that's what happens. In that case, what in the world will the Giants have accomplished with this signing? Spending $4.5 million for a guy who's destined to be the backup catcher for at least the second half of the season anyway? Is that a wise use of resources?

And it isn't as though Molina is walking in with the rep as mentor to Posey, an elder statesman happy to assume the role of nurturing the younger talent along. Molina loudly ####### and moaned all last September that if he wasn't going to start (and presumably, continue to bat cleanup), then the Giants just didn't value him, and he didn't want to be around anymore, blah blah blah. He acted like the furthest thing from someone ready to help Posey feel welcome and encouraged.
   72. Steve Phillips' Hot Cougar (DrStankus) Posted: January 20, 2010 at 12:07 AM (#3441648)
Really? I'll put up a fair amount of money that says Posey catches more games than Molina does in the second half of the season.

Or at least a year's sponsorship of the Ben Molina page on BBRef.com.


Last year, the team let Bengie sulk his way back into the lineup, and gave Posey only 17 PAs, despite calling him up in early Sept, starting his arb clock.

Let's face it, the Giants are not an intelligent organization.
   73. Rich Rifkin Posted: January 20, 2010 at 12:08 AM (#3441651)
Well, Shooty, the arbitration numbers are out and it appears to me the Giants will spend $13 million on a not-shitty Tim Lincecum. The Giants offered $8 million to a 2 time CY winner. They will lose.
   74. Steve Phillips' Hot Cougar (DrStankus) Posted: January 20, 2010 at 12:11 AM (#3441654)
So how much has Sabean spent on crap this offseason? Molina, DeRosa, Uribe and Huff. That's a lot of money for a lot of running in place. ####### stupid. A shitty catcher, a shitty left fielder, a utility guy and a shitty half of a first base platoon. Well done, Sabes, well done.


From 2004:

Q: Did you ever make an offer for Vladimir Guerrero?

Sabean: In a word: No. If we had signed Guerrero or [Gary] Sheffield, we would have been without [Jim] Brower, [Scott] Eyre, [Matt] Herges, [Dustin] Hermanson, [Brett] Tomko, [A.J.] Pierzynski, [Pedro] Feliz, [J.T.] Snow, [Jeffrey] Hammonds, [Dustan] Mohr and [Michael] Tucker--obviously not being able to field a competitive team, especially from an experience standpoint, given our level of spending.


Ahh, that vaunted experience standpoint.

Someone tell Sabes you don't get extra points for an old team.
   75. Steve Phillips' Hot Cougar (DrStankus) Posted: January 20, 2010 at 12:12 AM (#3441655)
Well, Shooty, the arbitration numbers are out and it appears to me the Giants will spend $13 million on a not-shitty Tim Lincecum. The Giants offered $8 million to a 2 time CY winner. They will lose.


I'm not sure I understand the Giants reasoning here either. $10 might have actually been high enough to get it done.

I do, however, think that they decided to sign Molina when they saw that Tim could only get $13M
   76. Shooty would run in but these bone spurs hurt! Posted: January 20, 2010 at 12:12 AM (#3441656)
Meanwhile smart teams are locking up their young pitching superstars to long extensions...
   77. A triple short of the cycle Posted: January 20, 2010 at 12:26 AM (#3441667)
The Giants didn't get the memo re keeping your elite prospects+ at AAA for a few weeks to get that extra year of control over them (e.g. Rays and Longoria). Why did they call him up to the MLB roster last season (and presumably again this season) to ride the pine? Is the plan for him to learn invaluable catching and life skills from ... Molina ... a la Grasshopper Suzuki learning from Master Kendall?

+It almost seems as if the Giant's don't realize that Posey is an elite prospect.
   78. Petunia inquires about ponies Posted: January 20, 2010 at 12:31 AM (#3441673)
I can't believe the Giants lowballed Lincecum in arb. I cannot believe it. What a pack of fools.
   79. Rich Rifkin Posted: January 20, 2010 at 12:39 AM (#3441680)
The Giants didn't get the memo re keeping your elite prospects+ at AAA for a few weeks to get that extra year of control over them

I could be wrong, but I don't think a September call-up makes any difference in this regard.
   80. Steve Treder Posted: January 20, 2010 at 12:42 AM (#3441681)
It almost seems as if the Giant's don't realize that Posey is an elite prospect.

If only that were the case. At least that would be a coherent policy, if a misguided one.

No, instead what the Giants do is this: they rush Posey though their minor league system like greased lightning: 7 games at the Rookie level, a grand total of 3 games in low-A, a whopping 80 games in high-A, 35 in triple-A, and whoosh, the major league call-up barely over a year after signing him, with a grand total of 125 minor league games under his belt.

THAT's how you treat someone whom you're utterly convinced is an elite prospect.

But THEN what do they do? They publicly announce that they don't think he's ready to start in the major leagues, and then go out and re-sign the very mediocre veteran who whined last year that Posey was going to steal his job.

If Posey isn't ready, then what in the blooming hell was the reason to leap-frog through the minors like that? If he isn't ready, they could have him in double-A in 2010, triple-A at the highest -- even though, of course, he utterly dismantled every level he's been in so far.

It just -- well, there's no other way to put it: it betrays a lack of basic rational cognition. If there's a plan here, it's a mystery, wrapped in a riddle, inside an enigma.
   81. Joe OBrien Posted: January 20, 2010 at 12:49 AM (#3441686)
Meanwhile smart teams are locking up their young pitching superstars to long extensions...


The Giants already signed Cain to a multi-year deal, and Lincecum is not interested in a long-term contract.

But Sabean is still pretty much the biggest idiot ever.
   82. Misirlou cut his hair and moved to Rome Posted: January 20, 2010 at 12:51 AM (#3441692)
On Posey's BBREF page, he doesn't have a college listed, but he was drafted in 2008 2 months after his 21st birthday. What gives?

edit: OK, Wikipedia says he played 3 years at Florida State.
   83. Rich Rifkin Posted: January 20, 2010 at 12:57 AM (#3441694)
But Sabean is still pretty much the biggest idiot ever.

Other than the half of GMs over the last 15 years who were worse at their jobs than Sabean has been at his. Yes, he's an idiot. But he's far from alone.
   84. billyshears Posted: January 20, 2010 at 01:23 AM (#3441717)
What does this say about the Mets, that Benjie would rather take less money and one year less, from a team he criticized, than play for the Mets.


This is bullshit. For months, everybody around here goes around anticipatorily mocking Minaya and the Mets for signing Molina to a 3yr deal even though there's no evidence that they were offering him anything in the ballpark. Then, when Molina re-signs with his current team for a crap deal, what's the takeaway for the posters at BTF? Is it that the Mets weren't offering him an especially good deal? Of course not - that would be contrary to everybody's preconceptions. It's that the Mets are so embarrassing as a franchise that the Mets couldn't get Benji Molina to take their money.

Most likely (i) the Mets offered Molina 1 yr/$5 mil with a vesting option at the same price, (ii) the Giants offered 1 yr/$4.5 mil and (iii) Molina figured that if he played well enough to trigger the Mets vesting option, he would be better off trying his luck on the FA market again next year, so why bother moving. Of course, this chain of events doesn't reflect particularly poorly on the Mets, so it must be wrong.
   85. hokieneer Posted: January 20, 2010 at 01:30 AM (#3441722)
I can't believe the Giants lowballed Lincecum in arb. I cannot believe it. What a pack of fools.

8 does seem a little low, though it has to be one of the highest team offered figures ever. I said they should have went 10, that would have given them a good chance to win, esp if Timmah's camp came in with some ridiculous 18 mil+. Looking at the offers it should be fairly easy for timmy to win this case.

Meanwhile smart teams are locking up their young pitching superstars to long extensions...

I might be in the minority here, but personally Tim Lincecum scares me too much to sign to any huge long term extension. His delivery flies in the face of all my experience watching, playing, and coaching baseball. His stride is inhuman, and the way he can generate so much velocity and put that much torque on such a small frame screams injury to me. The only other person that was able to generate that velocity and have that kind of control in the same body frame was Pedro, but Pedro had a much more compact delivery. I know he's never had any arm trouble, so the empirical evidence isn't there, this is just my observation.

I would just keep paying his record setting arb numbers for 2 more years and see. If he throws another 500 Innings injury free, then maybe there is no cause for concern and then see if you can buy out his last arb year with a large contract. Personally, I still wouldn't feel comfortable about it, that motion is not natural.
   86. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: January 20, 2010 at 01:32 AM (#3441723)
Where's snapper? Maybe there is a god.

I'm here. I was at post #3. Then I had dinner plans.

I think this is an awful deal for SF, b/c it blocks Posey. The same deal for the Mets would have been OK; Thole belongs in AAA. A multi-year deal would have been bad.
   87. AJMcCringleberry Posted: January 20, 2010 at 01:42 AM (#3441728)
Wooo!

But no reason to not open it up to a few other NY celebrities:

I hear Conan O'Brien may have some free time coming up.
   88. Barnaby Jones Posted: January 20, 2010 at 01:47 AM (#3441731)
Q: Did you ever make an offer for Vladimir Guerrero?

Sabean: In a word: No. If we had signed Guerrero or [Gary] Sheffield, we would have been without [Jim] Brower, [Scott] Eyre, [Matt] Herges, [Dustin] Hermanson, [Brett] Tomko, [A.J.] Pierzynski, [Pedro] Feliz, [J.T.] Snow, [Jeffrey] Hammonds, [Dustan] Mohr and [Michael] Tucker--obviously not being able to field a competitive team, especially from an experience standpoint, given our level of spending.


Good heavens.
   89. bumpis hound Posted: January 20, 2010 at 02:01 AM (#3441735)
Great sign.

Posey twice (that I personally saw) flat out missed pitches while catching last year. One was a fastball right down the middle that winged an ump in the shin without having even touched Posey's glove, the other, a couple days later, barely missed the ump. This bodes ill for a staff with the likes of guys like Lincecum, Sanchez, Zito and Cain. Posey definitely has a lot of work to do. He'll probably come up mid-season or so and work his way behind the plate for good. No reason to kill the kid by throwing him into a situation that he's by all appearances not ready for.

Molina not being the cleanup hitter will most likely be a boon. He won't have to play every game, which should keep his defense fresh. He seemed to wear down late the last couple years just by virtue of having to catch every day. He also will be in a lower slot, 6th or so, which works in his favor. He'll probably never sniff a decent OBP, but I can take that from a catcher with decent D (I don't buy all the BS about how he's terrible defensively) who is not hitting cleanup. And he knows the staff, which is *huge* given how diverse the kinds of stuff they individually feature. And, this also means that the Giants *don't* have to sign Torrealba, who would be a major letdown from Molina's production.
   90. Steve Treder Posted: January 20, 2010 at 02:09 AM (#3441739)
Posey definitely has a lot of work to do. He'll probably come up mid-season or so and work his way behind the plate for good. No reason to kill the kid by throwing him into a situation that he's by all appearances not ready for.

Let's assume that you're correct in this assessment. The questions then loom enormously: WHY IN THE WORLD HAVE THEY RUSHED HIM THROUGH THE MINOR LEAGUES AT THE SPEED OF LIGHT? WHY DID THEY PROMOTE HIM TO THE MAJORS LAST SEPTEMBER?

He seemed to wear down late the last couple years just by virtue of having to catch every day.

Molina OPS, 2009:

1st half .708
2nd half .754

Molina OPS, 2008:

1st half .726
2nd half .827

Molina OPS, 2007:

1st half .723
2nd half .741

And, this also means that the Giants *don't* have to sign Torrealba, who would be a major letdown from Molina's production.

Molina OPS+ 2009: 86
Torrealba OPS+ 2009: 87
   91. bumpis hound Posted: January 20, 2010 at 02:31 AM (#3441746)
By "wear down" I meant defensively. He gets slow behind the plate late in the season. Posey advanced so quickly 1) because of his bat (obviously); and 2) I'm guessing because he could stand to work with more advanced pitchers. Re: his promotion to the majors, I recall hearing on the pre-game around then that they were in a bind, that both Molina and Whiteside I think were both dinged up, they were a week or so away from the rosters expanding, they figured Posey would make a case for an ML call up soon enough anyway, and maybe they wanted to see if he'd stick.

I'm half convinced Torrealba is only around because he hits the Giants so well, he crushed them for whatever reason. I was afraid they'd make a Mark Portugal error and sign him because all they ever see is him rounding second on yet another line drive into the gap.

EDIT My bad, he was called up in September. Still recall hearing the injury stuff, I can't remember if the G's were holding off any other AAA catchers because of playoffs or whatnot.
   92. Harveys Wallbangers Posted: January 20, 2010 at 02:48 AM (#3441759)
I enjoy watching Molina play, because he makes me chuckle. Watching him run the bases is akin to seeing your sedentary Uncle Herb play softball at a family picnic.

If the Giants believe the West is winnable and know that pitching will be the key then having a vet behind the plate makes sense. But it would also help to find some offense elsewhere to compensate for Benji's deficient bat.
   93. Stosman Posted: January 20, 2010 at 03:32 AM (#3441781)
Oh this makes me so happy in pants...Omar couldn't Omarize himself.
   94. Alex_Lewis Posted: January 20, 2010 at 04:09 AM (#3441800)
And it gets even better! Bengie can earn an additional 1.5 million in bonuses based upon the number of games played!
   95. Drew (Primakov, Gungho Iguanas) Posted: January 20, 2010 at 04:41 AM (#3441816)
This signing hinges entirely on whether Molina is the starter or not. Even if he's been told that he's the starter, even he has to realize that if he gets badly outplayed, he'll sit. This is more about what Bochy might do than the signing itself. We'd be saying "decent depth signing", otherwise.
   96. Tripon Posted: January 20, 2010 at 04:44 AM (#3441817)
This is Bochy. He loves veterans. He'd play himself if he could.
   97. Drew (Primakov, Gungho Iguanas) Posted: January 20, 2010 at 04:47 AM (#3441818)
If that's the case...blech. How can that org bring up so many good pitching prospects yet be so clueless otherwise?
   98. Steve Phillips' Hot Cougar (DrStankus) Posted: January 20, 2010 at 05:58 AM (#3441845)
If Posey is so dreadful behind the plate, then they need to make the call that he needs to go to 3B. He played SS in college, and I don't think there's any reason to think he couldn't handle the IF.

And, as Treder says, if he's not ready, then why did they rush him?

When he was called up in Sept, the story was that Molina and Whiteside were dinged up. Molina then sulked and was suddenly, miraculously, healthy enough to play. Posey rode the pine and only got 17 PA, never getting a chance to settle in and even show if he could hit there.

And, they seem to be just fine with Bumgarner being the 5th starter next year, even though he showed every sign of not being ready, is still young, and did not pitch in AAA. I would have rather seen this money split on a cheaper C and a veteran starter.
   99. bumpis hound Posted: January 20, 2010 at 06:02 AM (#3441849)
Good god, it's a ONE YEAR CONTRACT.

FOR A MINOR AMOUNT OF MONEY.

Good lord people. This is a win for the Giants. Posey has one year of pro ball under his belt. But good lord Sabean is an idiot if he doesn't start right away. I mean, look at Lincecum and Bumgarner, for what that's worth and it's worth nothing at all. I think the Mets fanboy complaints have tainted the groupthink here.

Again, second offseason in a row, I am seriously thankful I am a Giants fan rather than a fan of a donkus POS org like NY's other team.
   100. Tripon Posted: January 20, 2010 at 06:21 AM (#3441858)
On a team that will coddle his ass when he ####### about playing time. He's not going to let Posey take over.
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