Baseball for the Thinking Fan

Login | Register | Feedback

btf_logo
You are here > Home > Baseball Newsstand > Baseball Primer Newsblog > Discussion
Baseball Primer Newsblog
— The Best News Links from the Baseball Newsstand

Friday, November 01, 2019

National League Rushmore Update, 2019

The National League follow-up to Monday’s article

If you don’t happen to recall, this isn’t about the four best players in a team’s history. Rather, it’s about the four best players in history that have never played for another team. If you’re wondering where Willie Mays and Hank Aaron are, that’s where. These aren’t necessarily the “right” answers, but they’re interesting to me.

I agree with the author, it’s interesting.

Mike Webber Posted: November 01, 2019 at 02:03 PM | 25 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
  Tags: national league, war

Reader Comments and Retorts

Go to end of page

Statements posted here are those of our readers and do not represent the BaseballThinkFactory. Names are provided by the poster and are not verified. We ask that posters follow our submission policy. Please report any inappropriate comments.

   1. AndrewJ Posted: November 01, 2019 at 08:59 PM (#5897975)
Christy Mathewson's one start with the 1916 Reds prevented the Giants from running away with the strongest NL Rushmore...
   2. JJ1986 Posted: November 01, 2019 at 10:16 PM (#5897986)
I probably missed someone, but I believe that retired and Met-only list is Wright, Ron Hodges, Pedro Feliciano and Bob Apodaca.
   3. Howie Menckel Posted: November 01, 2019 at 11:26 PM (#5897998)
I think Apodaca is still the Mets pitching leader in the clubhouse.
   4. Gold Star - just Gold Star Posted: November 01, 2019 at 11:39 PM (#5898002)
Drysdale-Reese-Robinson-Koufax.
   5. John Northey Posted: November 02, 2019 at 12:06 AM (#5898014)
The Marlins are pretty sad with the leader being at 14.0 WAR (Jose Fernandez) but the Jays are the worst with just 10.8 for Luis Leal (a good inning eater in the early 80's). The Jays have a habit of letting guys who are great go near the end (Dave Stieb had a few innings for the ChiSox, Halladay sent to the Phillies so he could get to the playoffs, too cheap to keep Delgado, too stupid to keep Olerud, etc.)
   6. SoSH U at work Posted: November 02, 2019 at 12:14 AM (#5898025)
The Marlins are pretty sad with the leader being at 14.0 WAR (Jose Fernandez) but the Jays are the worst with just 10.8 for Luis Leal (a good inning eater in the early 80's).


No, the Jays are still ahead of their rhymed pal in the AL East. Jeff Niemann and his 4.3 WAR lead the way for the Rays.

   7. bbmck Posted: November 02, 2019 at 12:41 AM (#5898040)
Pitching WAR for a retired career Met is Pedro Feliciano 5.7 (0.0 batting WAR) over Bob Apodaca 5.5 (0.1) and Jeff Innis 4.6 (-0.1)
   8. Russlan thinks deGrom is da bomb Posted: November 02, 2019 at 12:43 AM (#5898041)
Pedro Feliciano was technically a Yankee for a few years.
   9. Walt Davis Posted: November 03, 2019 at 02:27 AM (#5898283)
As has been noted elsewhere, the Cubs come very close to an excellent Rushmore -- Sandberg had a smidgen of PA with the Phils, Chance and Hartnett a handful elsewhere at the very end of their careers, Root had 60 innings with the Browns at the very start. Put those guys with Banks and Hack (and Anson?) and it's a powerhouse Rushmore. Of course that might be true for other teams as well.

I find the project flukey more than interesting. It's silly to construct criteria such that Hank Aaron and Willie Mays aren't on their team's Rushmores. Of baseball's all-time top 10 in WAR, only Walter Johnson would be memorialized on a Rushmore. What exactly is the point?

You do a little better in the next 10 with Musial, Gehrig, Mantle and Williams. The next 10 Ott and Schmidt. The next 10 Yaz, Ripken, Clemente; the next 10 (Anson), Kaline, Gibson, Brett. So out of baseball's top 50, you have 13-14 who would be on Rushmores.

If the point is "even great players rarely stay on one team for their entire career" ... fine, just label it that, don't call it a "Rushmore."
   10. Misirlou gave her his Vincent to ride Posted: November 03, 2019 at 09:29 AM (#5898296)
Washington

Steve Rogers (44.7) remains on top. Long live Steve Rogers!
Ryan Zimmerman (37.8) is second, though he has just 3.8 total WAR over the last six years. That’s a lot of mediocrity for the $88 million he raked in. I think the Nats should give him $2 million to walk away rather than $16 million additional to stay.
With Bryce Harper in Philadelphia, Stephen Strasburg (33.9) moves up. Actually, had Harper not gone north, he’d still be behind Stras.
A wonderful season from Anthony Rendon (27.3) puts him solidly fourth. Of course, he’s a free agent after the World Series, and he’s going to make some bucks that the Nationals aren’t likely to pay. There’s going to be a new name on this list a year from now.


Strasburg has opted out, Rendon is also a FA, and the Nats in all likelihood will decline Zim's option. If none are re-signed, Trea Turner moves up to #2. No one else, active or otherwise is above 10 WAR.
   11. Dock Ellis Posted: November 03, 2019 at 09:48 AM (#5898298)
Was Jackie Robinson technically a Giant in December 1956?
   12. SoSH U at work Posted: November 03, 2019 at 12:17 PM (#5898317)

Was Jackie Robinson technically a Giant in December 1956?


For any of these, the general rule is they have to have played a game at the big league level.
   13. The Yankee Clapper Posted: November 03, 2019 at 02:07 PM (#5898338)
Strasburg has opted out, Rendon is also a FA, and the Nats in all likelihood will decline Zim's option.
So far, Strasburg seems to be more re-negotiating with the Nationals than pursuing options elsewhere. We’ll see if that holds. However, both Zimmerman & the Nationals have expressed interest in his coming back on a new, lower-priced deal. Unless he decides to retire as a champion, Zim should be back.
   14. Misirlou gave her his Vincent to ride Posted: November 03, 2019 at 02:52 PM (#5898343)
That would be good. I like too see more 1 teams guys.
   15. Snowboy Posted: November 03, 2019 at 02:54 PM (#5898344)
If you don’t happen to recall, this isn’t about the four best players in a team’s history. Rather, it’s about the four best players in history that have never played for another team.

What an arbitrary delimiter.
As mentioned, if you can't put Christy Mathewson on the Giants all-time list, because he pitched himself into the Hall of Fame in 634 games for them, but is disqualified because he pitched 1 game for Cincinnati in his final year, then what are we talking about here?

Any list that wouldn't but Stieb on the Jays leaderboard is bankrupt from the start. Griffey Jr. won't be on the Mariners Rushmore because he fell asleep in the clubhouse and retired midseason for Chicago? In the winter of 1914, Connie Mack's Philly A's sold Eddie Collins (57WAR) to CWS, and released Chief Bender (193-102, 45WAR) and Eddie Plank (284-162, 77WAR)so we can't discuss how they were #1-2-3 at the time in career A's WAR, and that Plank is STILL the A's leader in WAR, W, K, IP, etc., because he had the temerity to continue his career by signing with the upstart (possibly more lucrative) Federal League (where he went 21-11, with 0.99 WHIP)?

I suppose in a consideration of the best hitters of all-time, this author would disqualify Ted Williams because he once appeared on the mound?

Sigh...143 days until Opening Day [stares out window]
   16. bobm Posted: November 03, 2019 at 03:12 PM (#5898348)
Griffey Jr. won't be on the Mariners Rushmore because he fell asleep in the clubhouse and retired midseason for Chicago?

All those years on the Reds may have something to do with it.
   17. Fred Lynn Nolan Ryan Sweeney Agonistes Posted: November 03, 2019 at 04:37 PM (#5898358)
For any of these, the general rule is they have to have played a game at the big league level.

As every American schoolchild knows, this is why Daric Barton isn't wearing a Blue Jays cap on the A's Rushmore.
   18. Mike A Posted: November 03, 2019 at 04:59 PM (#5898360)
I just can't believe out of the long Braves history, it's Rick Camp (13.5 WAR) who slots into the #4 spot, edging out other Brave lifers Bruce Benedict (7.4 WAR), Sibby Sisti (1.8 WAR), and the legendary Biff Pocoroba (-0.6 WAR).
   19. Howie Menckel Posted: November 03, 2019 at 05:28 PM (#5898363)
If the point is "even great players rarely stay on one team for their entire career" ... fine, just label it that, don't call it a "Rushmore."

yes, exactly.

it's a quirky little exercise at the start of a long, cold winter. amusing, even.

but so many get distracted by the dumb title - "Franchise Lifers" or something would have been much better.
   20. SoSH U at work Posted: November 03, 2019 at 06:03 PM (#5898373)
but so many get distracted by the dumb title - "Franchise Lifers" or something would have been much better.


Considering how few of these guys will spend a lifetime with the franchise in question, that would be even worse.

I like one-team lists, but it only works for those who have retired. Almost none of the current guys will play with just one team.

   21. Howie Menckel Posted: November 03, 2019 at 06:20 PM (#5898374)
I like one-team lists, but it only works for those who have retired.

yes, also this.
   22. Perry Posted: November 04, 2019 at 07:35 PM (#5898616)
I like one-team lists, but it only works for those who have retired. Almost none of the current guys will play with just one team.


Yeah, I listed Musial-Gibson-Wainwright-Molina for the Cardinals in the other thread, but obviously that could change. I don't even know who would replace them. Pepper Martin maybe, or Terry Moore.
   23. Misirlou gave her his Vincent to ride Posted: November 04, 2019 at 08:50 PM (#5898633)
As mentioned, if you can't put Christy Mathewson on the Giants all-time list, because he pitched himself into the Hall of Fame in 634 games for them, but is disqualified because he pitched 1 game for Cincinnati in his final year, then what are we talking about here?


Pure trivia. I don't think anyone is making a grander claim than that.
   24. Howie Menckel Posted: November 04, 2019 at 08:54 PM (#5898636)
Sean Forman would call it a "frivolity."

:)
   25. Misirlou gave her his Vincent to ride Posted: November 04, 2019 at 09:04 PM (#5898639)
Yeah, I listed Musial-Gibson-Wainwright-Molina for the Cardinals in the other thread, but obviously that could change. I don't even know who would replace them. Pepper Martin maybe, or Terry Moore.


Whitey Kurowski and Moore. But tweaking the rules just slightly, and saying they have to have played in the same home park for their entire career gets you Harry Breechen and Marty Marion.

You must be Registered and Logged In to post comments.

 

 

<< Back to main

News

All News | Prime News

Old-School Newsstand


BBTF Partner

Dynasty League Baseball

Support BBTF

donate

Thanks to
tshipman
for his generous support.

Bookmarks

You must be logged in to view your Bookmarks.

Hot Topics

NewsblogRyan Thibs’ Hall of Fame Tracker
(455 - 6:08pm, Dec 13)
Last: alilisd

NewsblogAngels agree to 7-year deal with Rendon
(79 - 6:02pm, Dec 13)
Last: Walt Davis

Hall of Merit2020 Hall of Merit Ballot Discussion
(356 - 5:51pm, Dec 13)
Last: kcgard2

NewsblogOT - NBA Thread, Start of the 2019-2020 Season
(1474 - 5:43pm, Dec 13)
Last: aberg

NewsblogGiants change bullpen location, move fences in at Oracle Park
(8 - 5:42pm, Dec 13)
Last: What did Billy Ripken have against ElRoy Face?

NewsblogMLB Rumors: Angels Pursuing 'Significant' Starting Pitcher
(41 - 5:24pm, Dec 13)
Last: Gonfalon Bubble

NewsblogMets to sign Rick Porcello
(42 - 5:18pm, Dec 13)
Last: Russlan thinks deGrom is da bomb

NewsblogThe Hall of Fame may have a Harold Baines problem
(165 - 5:18pm, Dec 13)
Last: Jay Z

NewsblogBrodie Van Wagenen: Mets have 'deepest rotation in baseball,' Steven Matz still seen as starter
(14 - 4:59pm, Dec 13)
Last: What did Billy Ripken have against ElRoy Face?

NewsblogSome of baseball’s biggest stars are ready to change the game’s free-agency system – The Athletic
(29 - 4:37pm, Dec 13)
Last: Barry`s_Lazy_Boy

NewsblogThe Yankee Death Star Is Back
(9 - 4:30pm, Dec 13)
Last: Walt Davis

NewsblogOT- Soccer Thread- October 2019
(946 - 4:24pm, Dec 13)
Last: Panik on the streets of Flushing! (Trout! Trout!)

Newsblog'Fourth-Grade Diet': Welcome to the Winter Meetings, the Unhealthiest Week of the Year
(8 - 4:22pm, Dec 13)
Last: Jose Goes to Absurd Lengths for 50K

NewsblogFormer Padres, Giants manager Bochy to manage French team
(37 - 4:21pm, Dec 13)
Last: Zach

NewsblogYankees, Brett Gardner reunite on one-year, $12.5 million deal
(19 - 4:10pm, Dec 13)
Last: Walt Davis

Page rendered in 0.3272 seconds
46 querie(s) executed