Re: 96-97, I wonder if this public declaration of stalemate doesn't benefit current Nats ownership at least as much as Team Boras. Keeping Soto would certainly put a pleasant face on the franchise for a generation and, such that it matters anymore, a foundational piece for the next competitive roster. However, if the Lerners can flip him ("you've forced our hand, young entitled Mr Soto...") along with one or more of their ugly back-dated contracts for whatever magic beans may come, surely that's more attractive to prospective new ownership? Realizing that payroll is nearly irrelevant to any franchise's ability to make Scrooge McDuck-like amounts of fortunte, that is, but the optics of "wise" stewardship are always a people-pleaser.

This stalemate could drag on for a few more years and eventually include the ask for a new stadium. Nationals Park opened in March 2008, so it will officially curdle by 2028...? Sooner, maybe? Grab your pocketbooks, remaining Nats fans and DC residents.

I’m seeing suggestions that the White Sox should trade Andrew Vaughn, Eloy Jimenez, Colson Montgomery, Oscar Colas, and Norge Vera for Juan Soto. And add Dylan Cease and/or Luis Robert if needed. WTF? That would be the worst trade in MLB history.

95... Your response here is very detailed. I have an idea: Since you now remember so clearly what you posted, why don't you provide a link to the discussion we had?

. With such glee the right watches as the country comes unglued. The most important public policy issues of the day are now decided by a cadre of unaccountable ideologues installed through a series of accidents and dirty tricks. And just in case you were worried about other branches and levels of government intervening, the obstacles between the voters and the outcomes they prefer have never been greater. But hey, countries last forever no matter what, right?

"i'M a cEnTrIsT."

See?

I’m seeing suggestions that the White Sox should trade Andrew Vaughn, Eloy Jimenez, Colson Montgomery, Oscar Colas, and Norge Vera for Juan Soto. And add Dylan Cease and/or Luis Robert if needed. WTF? That would be the worst trade in MLB history.

Shrug. Sportswriters also find themselves with too much time on their hands during the All-Star Break, not just during Spring Training.

As most remember, the issue with Garland’s nomination was whether an opposition party Senate could decline to act on a nomination for a Supreme Court vacancy occurring in a presidential election year. I recall noting in various ways that an opposition party Senate hadn’t confirmed a Supreme Court nomination to a vacancy occurring in a presidential election year since the Grover Cleveland administration, and even that was a compromise selection after several nominations had been voted down or not acted on by the Senate

The second part may be true, but the first part is not. My Senators at the time (J. Isakson, D. Perdue) both were opposed to any confirmation hearings, but neither of them ever mentioned anything about the makeup of the Senate as a factor, it was ONLY about the fact that it was an election year.

Here was McConnell in 2016: "So the American people have a particular opportunity now to make their voice heard in the selection of Scalia’s successor as they participate in the process to select their next president — as they decide who they trust to both lead the country and nominate the next Supreme Court justice. How often does someone from Ashland, Ky., or Zearing, Iowa, get to have such impact?"

The rationale about alignment between the Senate and Oval Office was only trotted out in 2020 so that they could confirm Barrett.

The second part may be true,

...but how often did the same scenario occur between then and 2016?

Clappy is the most dishonest person on this site, by a wide margin.

I’m seeing suggestions that the White Sox should trade Andrew Vaughn, Eloy Jimenez, Colson Montgomery, Oscar Colas, and Norge Vera for Juan Soto. And add Dylan Cease and/or Luis Robert if needed. WTF? That would be the worst trade in MLB history.

Yep, why mortgage everything that might make you competitive when you get a good player, leaving holes in the two year window you have with the new player. I don't know what the going rate for two years of an elite player is, but at best you project him as a 14 war player over the next two seasons, add another 3 for this season and realize that if you trade anyone that does produce at above 3 per year war level, you might have lost out on the trade as far as value for war etc. I get the post season run you add a bit more value, but he's going to cost about 70% of his real value over the next two years anyway.

In presidential election years, when the President’s party has sufficient votes in the Senate to do so, it continues to confirm federal judges at all levels. When it doesn’t have those votes, few election year nominations are confirmed. That’s been true for many decades, under both parties. It’s so common that two current Supreme Court Justices, John Roberts & Elena Kagan, had earlier DC Circuit nominations thwarted in that manner.

Bivens is again interjecting a topic that is irrelevant to the thread, and doing it badly. Those who care about that topic may want to consult the 2016 OTP threads, rather than rely on what Bivens claims is his ‘nearly verbatim paraphrase’.

Knock it off with the politics folks. Juan Soto might get traded - that's huge, and much more interesting than yet another round of political bickering.

Snapper made some interesting pts. which I mostly agree with especially on the inflationary front. But i wanted to take on the one he asked: was anybody known for dogging it in the hopes of being traded?

Not many. But Sheffield comes to mind. I dont know if he was looking to get traded or just was a weirdo But that might be one. Also Bill Madlock before he was traded to PIT in the mid 70s was said to be a crappy fielder and didnt want to be in SF. He seemed to really trying when he arrived so maybe Madlock. Also Geo. Foster was probably dogging it at times, I recall hearing announcers making some insinuations.

But yeah. I think I agree with the overall pt. it doesnt really happen in baseball unless there is some unusual flakey personality in some unusual sitaution.

However, if the Lerners can flip him ("you've forced our hand, young entitled Mr Soto...") along with one or more of their ugly back-dated contracts for whatever magic beans may come, surely that's more attractive to prospective new ownership?

That seems likely to be the question that will guide the Nationals actions. My view is that retaining Soto makes the franchise more valuable, adding to the sale price, while leaving the new owners to actually pay the new contract. If they can’t do that, kicking the can down the road for the new owners to resolve before Soto’s 2025 free agency, would also have Soto’s presence adding to the franchise value.

Trading Soto removes his value from the sale price, and undoubtedly alienates a large portion of the Nationals fan base, so much of the DC reporting has suggested that it is the least likely option, at least during the 2022 season. However, like #101, some suggest that a stripped-down bare bones payroll might appeal to some buyers, who’d see the guaranteed profits from national media & central fund handouts as more attractive than investing money in an attempt to create a winning team that would boost local revenues.

Maybe there’s a trade with such ripe prospect talent that it would be lauded in the media and convince the locals to see how it plays out, but I think it’s more that the Lerners have to decide what option does the most for the franchise sale price and act accordingly.

#111 Madlock was very unhappy in SF about being asked to play second and went pulic about it. Bill James has a great comment.

"This is understandable; bears don't like to roller skate, cows don't like to dance and the Pope rarely appears on game shows. Playing second base was not among Madlock's considerable talents."

Also re Sheffield. As I know you're aware, while he claimed to have made errors on purpose while in Milwaukee there's no evidence to support this. At the same time time he made those claims he also said that he was "consumed with hate" and there's ample evidence to support this.

So he was certainly trying to force a trade. And he played very badly in 1991. But he also had some injury issues (and one of his many complaints had to do with the way the team handled this)

A lot of people felt Randy Johnson was dogging it in 1998 -- trying to force a trade. But what it mostly looks like to me is some bad luck on balls in play.

Beaten to it on Sheffield by Ron.

Madlock was very unhappy in SF about being asked to play second and went pulic about it.

The sequence of events was like this:

1976: The Giants trade in midseason for Darrell Evans, who becomes their regular first baseman.
1977: The Giants trade for Madlock and install him as their everyday third baseman. Evans plays primarily in left field.
1978: The Giants decide to put Evans back at third base, where he hasn't played regularly since 1975 with the Braves. They move Madlock to second base.
1979: The Giants trade Madlock in midseason to the Pirates, who immediately switch him back to third base. He never plays another major league inning at second base.

Nobody ever accused the late-1970s Giants of knowing what they were doing.

thanks for all the insights into the Madlock situation.

Nobody ever accused the late-1970s Giants of knowing what they were doing.

it's not a terrible trade. Looking at the next 5 seasons: Whitson produced over 9 WAR and Al Holland produced 10. Compared to Madlock who produced 15 over the same time. Lenny Randle also came to PIT but he was sold soon to NYY and had 1.3 WAR left.

They got 6.5 war out of HOlland and converted that into Mike Krukow for 8 more WAR. They got 4 war out of Whitson before trading him for the corpse of Duane Kuiper (-1.4). Seen that way they got 17 War for Madlock.


WHos to say SFG didnt win that trade?

***

Speaking of PIT/SFG trades. I saw Dick Schofield died and didnt realize he was traded straight up for Jose Pagan in the mid 60s in a challenge trade if there ever was one. They were both about the same age. They both were crappy/no power hitters. But Pagan had outstanding range at SS as seen in videos and what we can tell from TZ about +10 runs/yr vs Schofield who seems merely cromulent at 2b. Any insight into what was going on there.

(using the trick CFB taught me re "after-links")

from the Schofield SABR bio:

"After waiting ten seasons to become a big-league starter, Schofield finally got his chance in 1963. An offseason trade sent Groat to St. Louis and Ducky was named the starting shortstop and leadoff hitter. He was in the Pirates’ Opening Day lineup for each of the next three seasons....

"On May 22 [1965] the Pirates traded him to the Giants for infielder Jose Pagan. The already offensively loaded Giants upgraded their defense and the Pirates opened up the shortstop job for Gene Alley. Schofield provided the defense the Giants were looking for as he led the league in fielding percentage. However, he batted just .203 after coming to San Francisco and .209 for the season."

from the Pagan SABR bio:

"With the Giants, his offense gradually eroded. His glove work remained at an elite level, but his batting average and power both deteriorated. On May 22, 1965, once Giants manager Herman Franks became sufficiently dissatisfied with Pagán’s overall play, Pagán was traded to Pittsburgh for infielder Dick Schofield.

"Pagán played the utility role well for the Pirates, and his fluency in the languages of Spanish and baseball made him extremely useful as the first large wave of Hispanic players began to arrive in the United States."

................


hmm, I forgot that Jayson Werth is a grandson of this Schofield and a nephew of the second one.
and I never knew that Werth's stepfather is forgettable 1980-81 Yankees backup 1B-OF Dennis Werth.

A lot of people felt Randy Johnson was dogging it in 1998 -- trying to force a trade. But what it mostly looks like to me is some bad luck on balls in play.

That's what came to mind for me, too, and of course he had a legendary second half with Houston. But in Seattle he was still fine, and as you note, had a good FIP.

Take your favorite team and name the three players they will need to include to get into the Juan Soto Sweepstakes! Not the three you would offer, but the three that need to be on the table to get in the discussion. (For example, I don’t see any way the Yankees get in without offering Volpe). Even if you think your team wouldn’t try for Soto, who would they need to offer if they decided to go for it. For my beloved Detroit Tigers I will go with…

Riley Greene- he’s not Juan Soto but looks a lot like he could be Michael Brantley or better, which is pretty good.
Spencer Torkelson- a lousy debut, but still a lot of potential that is at least close to being MLB-ready.
Tarik Skubel- noses out Casey Mize and Jackson Jobe for the third spot. I can see the Nats preferring Jobe, I can see Detroit offering Mize.

I don’t think the Nats even pick up the phone if Greene isn’t involved…

The Astros could offer Hunter Brown and one each of their magic beans at 3b (Hensley or Perez) and Cf (Barber or Leon). The young catchers might not be as appealing to the Nats, given Ruiz's shiny promise. Houston is still the best team out West but Seattle is coming on and at some point soon the Astros figure to get younger, if not cheaper. Soto would surely take the sting out of that trajectory and maybe even keep their Altuve/Bregman competitive window open a bit longer.

Could they or would they take on Corbin's dead weight, though? That might improve their chances and change up the high rank of the prospects listed above. Does Washington want young'uns to dream on, salary relief, both, or something else altogether...? Certainly they have opportunities all over their roster.

Could they or would they take on Corbin's dead weight, though?

That might make the balance sheet look a bit better to potential buyers, which is probably the Lerners highest priority, so taking Corbin may have to be part of any package. Teams that think he’s fixable, may be more willing to go there.

I can't imagine that Corbin - once a very successful SP - couldn't be a useful left-handed MLB reliever. hey, the Mets could use that!

hey, the Mets could use that!

I’ll be a bit surprised if the Nationals trade Soto to a divisional rival, or a team whose best prospect is a catcher (since they seem to be happy with Keibert Ruiz, and have so many other needs), although there might be ways to compensate for those shortcomings, i.e., pay more.

Take your favorite team and name the three players they will need to include to get into the Juan Soto Sweepstakes!

Considering I don't fully know much about Washington's upcoming players and prospects potential, I'm going just by their current lineup, and saying the Cardinals offer Juan Yepez (a first year player, 24 years old, putting up a 115 ops+ as a corner outfielder in the majors) That would effectively keep the Nationals from having a hole where Soto was at. Jordan Walker, a potential everyday all star third baseman who hasn't seen the majors yet, and I know everyone is putting Libertore in the deal, but I'm kinda holding out hope he goes to the A's. Johan Oviedo as the third, a major league ready pitcher.

I can’t imagine a deal with Yepez as the centerpiece would work. He’s a dh who stands in the of sometimes and he’s showing signs that pitchers have figured him out. I don’t see liberatore as a compelling target either.

The cards could take on Corbin, I guess. But I suspect any deal will need to include walker. Or maybe Carlson?

The cards could take on Corbin, I guess. But I suspect any deal will need to include walker. Or maybe Carlson?

I put Walker, Yepez and Libertore/Oviedo as the three pieces, I just mentioned Yepez first because I was pointing out a major league bat that they can put into their lineup today. Mind you, any prospect pitcher they want could probably be put in the deal, nobody is really untouchable as a pitcher in the Cardinals organization right now.

The Dodgers could offer Mookie as a centerpiece. He's more reasonably priced, locked in long term, and the new owner would still have a star to market.

I’ll be a bit surprised if the Nationals trade Soto to a divisional rival, or a team whose best prospect is a catcher (since they seem to be happy with Keibert Ruiz, and have so many other needs), although there might be ways to compensate for those shortcomings, i.e., pay more.

Why would they care? It’s not like they are interested in competing anyway.

Look who's weighed in with super-important insights.