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Thursday, October 28, 2021

Native American group blasts MLB commissioner Rob Manfred over ‘tomahawk chop’ comments

The nation’s largest Native American organization is disputing MLB commissioner Rob Manfred’s reasoning on why the Atlanta Braves’ nickname and its “tomahawk chop” fan ritual should be allowed to continue.

Calling it a local issue, Manfred said Tuesday the Native American community in the region is “fully supportive of the Braves’ program, including the chop.”

“For me, that’s kind of the end of the story,’’ he added.

However, the National Congress of American Indians countered that statement on Wednesday saying, “Nothing can be further from the truth.”

Noting how MLB markets the game nationally and internationally, NCAI president Fawn Sharp said the Braves’ name, logo and the chop “are meant to depict and caricature not just one tribal community but all Native people, and that is certainly how baseball fans and Native people everywhere interpret them.”

RoyalsRetro (AG#1F) Posted: October 28, 2021 at 10:03 AM | 40 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
  Tags: braves, rob manfred

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   1. Walks Clog Up the Bases Posted: October 28, 2021 at 10:51 AM (#6049573)
DOES CANCEL CULTURE HAVE NO MERCY?!
   2. Adam Starblind Posted: October 28, 2021 at 11:12 AM (#6049579)
If a large number of American Indians find it offensive -- and it's entirely understandable if they do -- isn't that reason enough to stop? You don't always have to be right. Sometimes you can decide just to be kind.
   3. Jose Has Absurd Goosebump Arms Posted: October 28, 2021 at 11:28 AM (#6049590)
Sometimes you can decide just to be kind.


There is evidence to suggest that a large portion of people do not feel that way.
   4. Walks Clog Up the Bases Posted: October 28, 2021 at 11:31 AM (#6049595)
If a large number of American Indians find it offensive -- and it's entirely understandable if they do -- isn't that reason enough to stop? You don't always have to be right. Sometimes you can decide just to be kind.


No, because we've incentivized being a bullish ####### and made being right a zero-sum game. To reconsider or back down is to somehow suggest you're weak.
   5. ERROR---Jolly Old St. Nick Posted: October 28, 2021 at 11:43 AM (#6049602)
Just wait until Trump shows up for game 4 on Saturday and offers to lead the fans in a mass chopping.
   6. What did Billy Ripken have against ElRoy Face? Posted: October 28, 2021 at 11:56 AM (#6049603)
Sometimes you can decide just to be kind.
Yeah, if you're a beta cuck who kowtows to the woke mob. Freedom!!
   7. Mike A Posted: October 28, 2021 at 12:27 PM (#6049611)
Just wait until Trump shows up for game 4 on Saturday and offers to lead the fans in a mass chopping.
Oh, no. no no no no

Between Trump, Travis Tritt, and the Chop...

Has anyone ever left their team based on moral issues?
   8. bunyon Posted: October 28, 2021 at 12:55 PM (#6049616)
I knew Redskins fans who did.

It can hardly come as news to you that the Braves are a right leaning operation. Most of MLB is. It is not the sport of the urban progressive.
   9. winnipegwhip Posted: October 28, 2021 at 12:59 PM (#6049617)
Just wait until Trump shows up for game 4 on Saturday and offers to lead the fans in a mass chopping.


I think he will be seen joining into the Lets Go Brandon chant.
   10. winnipegwhip Posted: October 28, 2021 at 01:00 PM (#6049619)
Has anyone ever left their team based on moral issues?


Billy Sunday
   11. Mayor Blomberg Posted: October 28, 2021 at 01:07 PM (#6049620)
Calling it a local issue, Manfred said Tuesday the Native American community in the region is “fully supportive of the Braves’ program, including the chop.”


Good to know Rob is an authorized spokesman for the NA community, and yeah, if it's a local issue let's go back to local history ca. Worcester v. Georgia and its aftermath
   12. Walks Clog Up the Bases Posted: October 28, 2021 at 01:15 PM (#6049623)
I think he will be seen joining into the Lets Go Brandon chant.


This assumes people outside of the right-wing ecosystem have a ####### clue what this even refers to.
   13. Mike A Posted: October 28, 2021 at 01:40 PM (#6049638)
It can hardly come as news to you that the Braves are a right leaning operation. Most of MLB is. It is not the sport of the urban progressive.
No, it doesn't. I know the Brave front office is conservative. I guess I was just optimistic. A few years back, they were talking about phasing out the Chop, now they're back to embracing it full bore. Travis Tritt also felt like a bit of an us vs. them move that really wasn't necessary.

And I know they can't really keep out Trump, though giving him a suite is ewww.

Maybe Jimmy Carter is well enough to make it up for a game, at least he'd be doing it as a Braves fan and not as a political stunt.
   14. bunyon Posted: October 28, 2021 at 02:02 PM (#6049648)
The Brave FO is in a pickle. If they try to stop the chop, their fans will turn on them. So it's the age old, money or morals dilemma.


Does Carter get to any games anymore? I wouldn't blame him for not making it.
   15. Tin Angel Posted: October 28, 2021 at 02:04 PM (#6049649)
A few years back, they were talking about phasing out the Chop, now they're back to embracing it full bore.


From what I can tell from the playoffs, the crowd always seems to start the chop on their own- the organist/sound people never get it going or join in. I could be wrong but it sounded like a few times the crowd started the chop and the organist quickly started playing Seven Nation Army to try to change it to that.

   16. ERROR---Jolly Old St. Nick Posted: October 28, 2021 at 02:23 PM (#6049651)
It can hardly come as news to you that the Braves are a right leaning operation. Most of MLB is. It is not the sport of the urban progressive.

Urban progressives favor the Beautiful Game whose fans routinely shout racist slurs at non-White players.
   17. My name is Votto, and I love to get Moppo Posted: October 28, 2021 at 02:48 PM (#6049655)
I think Tin Angel is right. I went to my first games at Truist this summer, and the stadium no longer plays the cues for the Chop like they used to (which was a drumbeat). But the fanbase has held on to it even tighter. The unofficial hashtag for Braves games is #ChopOn
   18. Hombre Brotani Posted: October 28, 2021 at 03:22 PM (#6049664)
The Brave FO is in a pickle. If they try to stop the chop, their fans will turn on them. So it's the age old, money or morals dilemma.
The Braves couldn't stop it if they wanted to. People in general hate change, and when you couple that natural resistance with a bunch of other strong emotions, you get a large group of people who are highly motivated to stand athwart history, yelling a cartoon Indian war whoop.
   19. Mike A Posted: October 28, 2021 at 03:24 PM (#6049666)
One SI article said the team was still promoting the chop:

"Roughly half of (the NLCS chops) were instigated by fans; the rest were team-initiated, complete with music piped over the PA system and graphics splashed across the jumbotron."

In 2020, the Braves said that 'discussions were still ongoing' about the chop, whatever the heck that means.

I don't think Carter is able to attend Braves games any more, though I'm still hopeful.
   20. Tom Nawrocki Posted: October 28, 2021 at 03:48 PM (#6049675)
Carter is 97. Former Supreme Court Justice John Paul Stevens was a mere kid of 96 when he attended the 2016 World Series.
   21. Astroenteritis Posted: October 28, 2021 at 04:02 PM (#6049682)
Slightly off topic- the Braves front office may be conservative, but they are around Bernie on the spectrum compared to the theocratic fascists who run the Houston Texans. And unlike the laughingstock the Texans have become, the Braves are competent.
   22. What did Billy Ripken have against ElRoy Face? Posted: October 28, 2021 at 04:10 PM (#6049686)
"Roughly half of (the NLCS chops) were instigated by fans; the rest were team-initiated, complete with music piped over the PA system and graphics splashed across the jumbotron."
I don't think they ever played the music, but I'm pretty sure I saw a big tomahawk graphic on the jumbotron.
   23. Rowland Office Supplies Posted: October 28, 2021 at 04:18 PM (#6049688)
I don't think they ever played the music, but I'm pretty sure I saw a big tomahawk graphic on the jumbotron.

Yes...the big electronic tomahawk is still chopping. And they're still turning down the lights to encourage the phone-light chop.
   24. The Yankee Clapper Posted: October 28, 2021 at 06:53 PM (#6049719)
Former Supreme Court Justice John Paul Stevens was a mere kid of 96 when he attended the 2016 World Series.
Always worth noting, Justice Stevens also attended the 1932 World Series, and vouched for Babe Ruth’s called shot HR.
   25. Howie Menckel Posted: October 28, 2021 at 07:03 PM (#6049723)
in 1981, writer Roger Angell interviewed Smoky Joe Wood during an incredibly memorable game between two future star pitchers - Ron Darling and Frank Viola

it's my all-time favorite piece of baseball writing, and I am not alone.

Wood was born in 1889, and Angell was born in 1920.

Wood and Deacon McGuire - who was born in the midst of the Civil War in 1863 - each appeared in a game for the 1912 Boston Red Sox.

Angell still walks among us, at 101 years young.

   26. Pat Rapper's Delight (as quoted on MLB Network) Posted: October 28, 2021 at 07:26 PM (#6049728)
the Lets Go Brandon chant

Finally, something even more idiotic and less relevant to the proceedings at hand than the frequent salutes to the career of Ric Flair.
   27. Pat Rapper's Delight (as quoted on MLB Network) Posted: October 28, 2021 at 07:38 PM (#6049734)
People in general hate change, and when you couple that natural resistance with a bunch of other strong emotions, you get a large group of people who are highly motivated to stand athwart history, yelling a cartoon Indian war whoop.

When I moved to the Trumptastic exurbs of North Dallas, the local high school mascot -- as emblazoned on the water tower in the center of town -- was the Fighting Coon. Supposedly, back in the 1920's or so when the first high school was built, a local yokel brought his feisty pet raccoon to a school board meeting to impress upon board members the qualities they should desire in their local scholar-athletes, and thus the Fighting Coons were born. Fast forward about 75 years to c.2000 and the school board suggests changing the name to the Fighting Raccoons to get with the times. The consternation from alumni, yokels, and hangers-on was more than even the subsequent redistricting maps every year as the school district has gone from one to a dozen high schools. Bumper stickers and t-shirts with "Don't Rac My Coons!" were printed and apparently actually purchased and the furor continued for a couple of years but it's been a while since I've heard any of that noise. Also the water tower was decommissioned and torn down about 10 or so years ago because it wasn't in service any more.
   28. sunday silence (again) Posted: October 29, 2021 at 12:19 AM (#6049792)
Manfred seems prone to making tone deaf remarks in the way some people are accident prone.
   29. Perry Posted: October 29, 2021 at 12:21 PM (#6049879)
Urban progressives favor the Beautiful Game whose fans routinely shout racist slurs at non-White players.


Not in the US. Racist fans are an issue in Europe, and it's worse the farther east and south you go, but soccer in Europe has an entirely different fanbase than in the US. Much more working class overall, and (especially when it comes to the national teams) with a much bigger ultra-right component.
   30. Starring Bradley Scotchman as RMc Posted: October 29, 2021 at 01:38 PM (#6049900)
Just wait until Trump shows up for game 4 on Saturday and offers to lead the fans in a mass chopping.


Sweet Jesus, I'd actually pay money to watch this! To the barricades...!

Urban progressives favor the Beautiful Game whose fans routinely shout racist slurs at non-White players.


Now, now, sometimes the chants aren't racist, they're homophobic...
   31. . Posted: October 29, 2021 at 04:31 PM (#6049945)
It's not really that big a deal (*) and getting rid of it won't change anything substantive.(**) It's kind of yet another one of those toy controversies. Call me when the people complaining so vociferously want to do the slightest thing to reverse the underlying history. The Euros effectively "won" the Indian "wars" and it all happened centuries ago long before any of us were here. Anyone here actually think that was a bad thing? Stand up and really be counted if you do. It's Jack Nicholson on the wall in Cuba stuff from top to bottom.

All of this seems very angels-on-the-head-of-a-pin stuff that ultimately revolves around something like "the ethics of cultural victory," or even possibly more so, "good manners." There's no real handbook for that, so it's subject to all manner of changing fads and changing whims with no real intellectual heft or principle behind it. What does anyone point to as an objective lodestar to figure out whether a bunch of white people celebrating the accomplishments of their baseball team at an entertainment venue by moving their arms up and down while verbalizing a sound in unison is "bad"? It's not really even aimed at Native Americans in any serious way, but would it be more and more ok if more and more of the battles BITD were stalemates or akin to Custer getting his ass kicked? That seems like an odd criterion.

(*) Which is to say, it's kind of silly and weird and not really my cup of tea ... but so are a lot of things that really aren't *that* big a deal.

(**) And the natural converse of the fact that getting rid of it won't do anything substantive is that keeping it won't do anything substantive.
   32. . Posted: October 29, 2021 at 04:46 PM (#6049949)
Urban progressives favor the Beautiful Game whose fans routinely shout racist slurs at non-White players.


Woke types tend to be humorless drones devoid of any sense of irony, but yes, it is quite funny indeed that the sport they've gravitated to in the hopes that they wouldn't have to stench themselves with liking something ... gasp! ... American, is in point of fact, almost without exception in Europe, the sport of the hardened and retrograde prole. The biggest of the big clubs have somewhat gentrified themselves -- still only somewhat -- but I'd invite any of them to go to a match at, say, Palace or QPR or Millwall and report back.
   33. ERROR---Jolly Old St. Nick Posted: October 29, 2021 at 05:13 PM (#6049950)
Urban progressives favor the Beautiful Game whose fans routinely shout racist slurs at non-White players.

Not in the US. Racist fans are an issue in Europe, and it's worse the farther east and south you go, but soccer in Europe has an entirely different fanbase than in the US.

Yeah, I'm well aware of that, but it's still slightly ironic that with the exception of the month of October, the Wokest newspaper in the entire United States devotes more coverage to European soccer than to baseball-----lots more. During the regular baseball season, the Manchester soccer team gets more regular news features than either the Yankees or the Mets.
   34. . Posted: October 29, 2021 at 05:15 PM (#6049951)
Yeah, I'm well aware of that, but it's also slightly ironic that with the exception of the month of October, the Wokest newspaper in the entire United States devotes more coverage to European soccer than to baseball-----lots more. During the regular baseball season, the Manchester soccer team gets more regular news features than either the Yankees or the Mets.


See 32, which fits the Times' pivot to soccer like a non-OJ glove.
   35. Jay Seaver Posted: October 29, 2021 at 06:28 PM (#6049962)
It's not really that big a deal (*) and getting rid of it won't change anything substantive


It's not a magic bullet that will solve the biggest problems particular to the lives of indigenous Americans, but it's the sort of thing that makes working on those problems easier because the caricatured version of another person's culture isn't occupying disproportionate space in one's head. It's hard to quantify how much of an effect this has, but it sure seems useful, even if we don't want to just settle for "useful".

What does anyone point to as an objective lodestar to figure out whether a bunch of white people celebrating the accomplishments of their baseball team at an entertainment venue by moving their arms up and down while verbalizing a sound in unison is "bad"? It's not really even aimed at Native Americans in any serious way


Human behavior is never going to be "objective", but "treat others as you would like to be treated" seems to be a pretty broadly-accepted guideline, and note that "like" does not mean "begrudgingly accept" for those who say "I wouldn't mind".
   36. Howie Menckel Posted: October 29, 2021 at 06:44 PM (#6049966)
I feel like I am fewer and fewer years away from the "no I am not kidding" offense I take at the stupid leering Fighting Irish mascot leprechaun being taken more seriously. all of my ancestors are from The Old Sod.

as noted too often before, it was 100 years ago that the mascot made some sense.

now? not so much, when this "plucky underdog school" is the only one with its only football TV contract, has gotten into countless lucrative bowl games it doesn't deserve for decades, and barely deigns to consent to playing major-sport conference schedules.

all that's about as "Irish" as a bar mitzvah.

enough already.

   37. Mayor Blomberg Posted: October 29, 2021 at 07:02 PM (#6049968)
AAndy, take a look at the URLs. A lot of Guardian US links back to the mothership. Ever consider, too, that sports isn't the Graun'a concern?
   38. bunyon Posted: October 29, 2021 at 09:48 PM (#6049987)
I can now definitively say that the Braves don’t just not discourage the chop but actively encourage it.
   39. . Posted: October 30, 2021 at 09:23 AM (#6050037)
Human behavior is never going to be "objective", but "treat others as you would like to be treated" seems to be a pretty broadly-accepted guideline,


This is a sensible code of personal ethics, maybe even an honorable one -- but it doesn't really apply here because we're not talking about individuals, we're talking about groups and cultures and more importantly, no one is really "treating" anyone in any way.
   40. Never Give an Inge (Dave) Posted: October 30, 2021 at 01:18 PM (#6050068)
It’s funny that the same people who constantly complain about how baseball is unwatchable then ascribe political motives to those who want to follow a more fast-moving sport. Maybe not everything is political and people just want to watch what they enjoy. There are also more people today who grew up playing soccer, and fewer who grew up playing baseball, so it’s not that surprising that soccer fandom would be increasing.

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