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Friday, October 15, 2021

NBA 2021-2022 Season Thread

I estimate there are maybe 10-12 Primates left on this site, and none of us want to post this thread.

Moses Taylor loves a good maim Posted: October 15, 2021 at 11:39 AM | 4178 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
Tags: get me out of philly, nba, off top

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201. Moses Taylor loves a good maim Posted: October 21, 2021 at 08:20 AM (#6048028)

An early speedbump on Tatum's MVP campaign.

As someone who doesn't like Tatum, games like last night are a good reason why. It's more visceral though, and not me doubting whether he's good or not (he's not as good as most people say though). I've always liked Brown better and I can't exactly explain why. Brown was awesome (though that missed dunk hurts).

this is just an early impression, but does anyone else notice a lot of incidental contact is going uncalled?

Thirded, yes. I think the players noticed it too, though there were stretches in most of the games where things were called tightly again. And there were some really bad calls too (like a late foul called against CHA that gave IND FTs and the lead), which is the norm.

202. Moses Taylor loves a good maim Posted: October 21, 2021 at 08:28 AM (#6048030)

It's not all his fault, what with the terrible contract and terrible trade, but DeRozan is easily my least favorite player on this Bulls team. He's just a bad fit and I don't see how he's helping this team at all. He's also not fun to watch dribble into a difficult midrange jumper again and again.

To follow up on this point, I think DeRozan almost blew the game for the Bulls last night. There were 4 possessions in the last few minutes no one else touched the ball - he made one difficult fade away, missed 2 others, and had a bad turnover. I know he was pretty good at iso last year*, but this ain't the way he should be used on this team. Outside of LaVine, everyone else on the Bulls really struggled shooting. Shockingly, the Bulls played much better defensively than offensively.

On the Pistons side, Grant is really damn good, but he just doesn't have enough help (Cunningham didn't play).

*from this SI piece:

While there was the old critique about DeRozan’s efficiency being poor, because he refuses to shoot from anywhere other than midrange, here’s a stat that turns things upside down: no isolation-heavy player was more efficient than DeRozan was on those looks last season. He averaged 1.2 points per possession, according to Synergy Sports. Kevin Durant finished behind him, at 1.18. Interestingly, LaVine—at 1.14 points per play—ranked third.

203. spivey 2 Posted: October 21, 2021 at 08:47 AM (#6048031)

As someone who doesn't like Tatum, games like last night are a good reason why. It's more visceral though, and not me doubting whether he's good or not (he's not as good as most people say though). I've always liked Brown better and I can't exactly explain why. Brown was awesome (though that missed dunk hurts).

Yeah. Brown seemed a better and more willing passer. Though it's one game, and the rest of the stuff tends to flow more naturally when you're hitting your shot. Which Brown was, and Tatum was not.

Their offense felt very 'your turn, my turn'. And a lot of the shots Tatum was taking were not good shots. Horford could help with that, but Robert Williams was pretty good last night too, and I'm a bit unclear how much they'll play together.

204. PJ Martinez Posted: October 21, 2021 at 09:32 AM (#6048048)

Tatum is a career 39% three-point shooter who who had a 2-15 night from behind the arc. I think there's a word for that... vari-something?

Obviously not a great outing and I wish he'd started driving to the basket sooner; 5 free throw attempts in 44 minutes is not good enough. But it's one game.

205. jmurph Posted: October 21, 2021 at 09:32 AM (#6048049)

Not even mildly worried about Tatum, but yeah, I think they might not have enough shot creation. I do agree that Horford should help on that front (and I don't think the Williams/Horford thing will be a problem, both guys miss plenty of time and there are otherwise enough minutes for both), but I'd feel a lot better if there were one better option among the three point guards. Two of Smart/Schroder/Pritchard would be fine as rotation guys, I don't really want any of them starting in that spot.

206. PJ Martinez Posted: October 21, 2021 at 09:47 AM (#6048051)

After the encouraging rookie year and the blazing preseason (I know, I know, it's preseason) I was disappointed that Pritchard played just 11 minutes and took only 3 shots. He can really shoot, and it shouldn't be that hard to take advantage of that. I think there's a possibility that he actually complements the starters better than the other two, but the team seems pretty committed to Smart as the starter. Schroder had his moments and led the team in assists but missed a lot of shots and appeared to blow a defensive rotation or two.

207. jmurph Posted: October 21, 2021 at 10:35 AM (#6048057)

Speaking of bad offensive starts, VanVleet was 5-20 from the floor, and Anunoby was 3-17(!). Incredible.

208. jmurph Posted: October 21, 2021 at 10:42 AM (#6048059)

Haralabos Voulgaris did a long interview on the ESPN Daily podcast talking about the Mavs dysfunction, here's a written recap.

209. Dingbat_Charlie

Posted: October 21, 2021 at 11:07 AM (#6048064)

I watched the Raptors/Wizards. Can confirm Toronto looked bad. I was prepared to embrace Dinwiddie as my favorite new Wizard but man, Montrezl is fun.

210. tell me when i'm telling 57i66135 Posted: October 21, 2021 at 12:57 PM (#6048081)

Haralabos Voulgaris did a long interview on the ESPN Daily podcast talking about the Mavs dysfunction, here's a written recap.

high school drama gossip, indeed

Voulgaris noted that the Mavericks had not had a front office employee get hired in a more prominent role by another franchise during Nelson's two-decade tenure as president of basketball operations. Voulgaris attributed that to Nelson not wanting any strong candidates working under him, citing Gersson Rosas' three-month stint as the Mavs' GM in 2013 as an example of Nelson eliminating a potential threat.

"[Nelson is] more of a, kind of like a wheeler-dealer, like when you shake his hands, you want to make sure your rings are still there. Not in a bad way, but he's that guy.

"not in a bad way"

"It was such a non-event that I didn't think it was a big deal, and the fact that it became a big deal led me to believe that this is just not worth it to me."

211. tshipman (The Viscount of Variance)

Posted: October 21, 2021 at 01:43 PM (#6048100)

I think the Haralabob stuff indicated that like a lot of "lone wolf" types, he thought all he had to do was be right about stuff. One thing I've learned while working in large organizations is that while being right is often good, it's not sufficient to drive changes or to get people to agree.

You can go too far the other way, too! If you compromise too much you can get the worst of all worlds, with a bad solution that no one likes that people just go along with.

Ultimately, NBA teams are complex social organizations with hierarchies and unwritten rules, and someone who wants to ignore all of that will probably not be successful in the long run or enjoy that environment.

212. tell me when i'm telling 57i66135 Posted: October 21, 2021 at 02:11 PM (#6048112)

this is one of the best takes on philadelphia sports that i can remember:

Kyle Neubeck @KyleNeubeck
Eagles center Jason Kelce on the Ben Simmons situation: "Everybody can ##### and complain about how tough this city is to play in. Just play better man, this city will love you."

and video.

213. tell me when i'm telling 57i66135 Posted: October 21, 2021 at 02:31 PM (#6048119)

In NBA history, there have been only six seasons in which a player posted block and steal rates of at least 3 percent each, while playing at least 1,200 minutes. Hall of Famers David Robinson, Hakeem Olajuwon, and Bobby Jones did it once each. Gerald Wallace also did it once, 15 years ago. Matisse Thybulle has done it twice in two seasons. He might not be able to shoot, but he’s a winning NBA player all the same.

The Bulls haven’t reached the playoffs since trading Jimmy Butler, but they don’t have much to show for their rebuild. Lauri Markkanen and Kris Dunn are gone. Wendell Carter Jr. and Chandler Hutchison are gone. Coby White is still around with a decent projection (11.6 WAR), but it’s unclear where he will fit in the revamped rotation when he returns from shoulder surgery.

Doncic is hilariously far ahead of every other young player. He’s projected to provide about as much value through the next five seasons as Zion Williamson and Trae Young combined; as Jayson Tatum and De’Aaron Fox combined; and as Deandre Ayton, Bam Adebayo, and Cade Cunningham combined.

Most teams at the bottom of this list have little in the way of youth production because they’re set to win now; the Spurs aren’t set to win now or, as this ranking suggests, later. They’re stuck in no-man’s-land, with no extra first-round picks headed their way. A sneaky tank job might be in order to reset the franchise’s future.

the ringer: Young Core Rankings

214. Hombre Brotani

Posted: October 21, 2021 at 03:16 PM (#6048130)

I think it's safe to say that Ben Simmons' house is up for sale. You can check it out on Zillow. I've stayed at 4-star hotels that weren't as nice as his bathroom.

215. Fourth True Outcome Posted: October 21, 2021 at 03:23 PM (#6048133)

I saw those photos first via this tweet and was expecting it to be one of those horrifying sex dungeon/scary mannequin attic real estate photosets on the internet, so the "Simmo the Savage" reveal after sixty-odd photos of an expensive home decorated to look like a fancy hotel was truly hilarious.

216. tshipman (The Viscount of Variance)

Posted: October 21, 2021 at 03:33 PM (#6048138)

See, this is what Simmons should have done months ago:

Adrian Wojnarowski
@wojespn
Ben Simmons described back tightness to several Sixers staff members and was briefly treated for it today, sources tell ESPN.

217. tell me when i'm telling 57i66135 Posted: October 21, 2021 at 03:34 PM (#6048139)

See, this is what Simmons should have done months ago:

derek bell would be proud.

218. Moses Taylor loves a good maim Posted: October 21, 2021 at 03:45 PM (#6048147)

The Bulls haven’t reached the playoffs since trading Jimmy Butler, but they don’t have much to show for their rebuild. Lauri Markkanen and Kris Dunn are gone. Wendell Carter Jr. and Chandler Hutchison are gone. Coby White is still around with a decent projection (11.6 WAR), but it’s unclear where he will fit in the revamped rotation when he returns from shoulder surgery.

The Bulls don't really have a backup PG or a lot of scoring off the bench - Caruso kinda is the only guy who can fake either of those roles - so that's what'll it'll be. Then again, White isn't really a PG either, but in theory he's a bench scorer type; best case is he's a poor man's Lou Williams, or at least that's the role for him. I doubt he has much trade value, and the Bulls have no more 1st round picks they can throw away (and still could have one taken away in the Ball tampering thing), so that's about it. Ayo got some minutes last night after Troy Brown picked up 3 early fouls, I'm guessing Coby would have gotten those minutes instead.

As for the larger point, it's even more crazy than the not making the playoffs since the Jimmy trade. They're now over .500 for the first time since trading Jimmy.

219. Moses Taylor loves a good maim Posted: October 21, 2021 at 03:49 PM (#6048150)

Shams Charania @ShamsCharania ·41m

Sources: 76ers All-Star Ben Simmons is currently not mentally ready to play for the team and was receiving treatment on his back today due to ramp up process. He will miss Friday’s home opener vs. Nets and is not expected to play for an undetermined period of time.

I'm starting to get concerned about Shams's back, what with all the water he's carrying for Klutch.

220. tell me when i'm telling 57i66135 Posted: October 21, 2021 at 03:51 PM (#6048152)

76ers All-Star Ben Simmons is currently not mentally ready

you don't say....

221. asinwreck Posted: October 21, 2021 at 04:22 PM (#6048157)

Howard Eskin @howardeskin
According to Sources, belief by #Sixers Ben Simmons is faking injury and mental illness. He came in 2day and said he had back stiffness and mentally not ready to play. Mental illness is serious issue and team is livid Simmons went down that road. Team plans to fine him every game

Adrian Wojnarowski @wojespn
All-Star guard Ben Simmons is expected to come early to the 76ers shootaround on Friday morning to discuss his playing status with organizational leadership, sources tell ESPN. Sixers play the Nets on ESPN and team is still hopeful that Simmons will participate in shootaround.

222. aberg Posted: October 21, 2021 at 04:31 PM (#6048159)

"Team is livid" doesn't entirely square with "we're perfectly happy to let him sit out all season."

Also, maybe not the best look to publicly accuse him of faking a mental illness. Even if that's what they think, I am not a fan of further stigmatizing something that still has a ton of stigma associated with it.

223. tell me when i'm telling 57i66135 Posted: October 21, 2021 at 04:40 PM (#6048161)

Also, maybe not the best look to publicly accuse him of faking a mental illness. Even if that's what they think, I am not a fan of further stigmatizing something that still has a ton of stigma associated with it.

also, "not being mentally ready to play" is not a mental illness, and even if it was, it sure as hell isn't being faked. whoever leaked that (to howard eskin, of all ####### people) needs to be hunted down and excised from the NBA (if not society, at large). they are not good people.

jesus christ, this organization does not make it easy not to hate them.

224. tell me when i'm telling 57i66135 Posted: October 21, 2021 at 05:00 PM (#6048164)

Kyle Neubeck @KyleNeubeck
Morey: “I’m focused on winning the title. I’ll go through mud, muck, barbed wire…we’ll go through whatever it takes…what we’re doing right now gives us the best chance to win the title”

Derek Bodner @DerekBodnerNBA
Daryl Morey on @975TheFanatic: "Would you rather eliminate what people perceive to be a distraction, or would you rather have better playoff odds? I'll take playoff odds...Whatever we have to deal with that helps the Philadelphia 76ers win the title, we'll do it."

Rich Hoffman @rich_hofmann
Daryl Morey on @MikeMiss25: “People should buckle in.” Says the team can only get role players in a trade now, will only trade him for a difference maker. “What’s our best chance to win a championship? Right now it’s re-integrating Ben Simmons to our team.”

Kyle Neubeck @KyleNeubeck
Morey: “You’re going to think I’m kidding, I’m not, this could take four years…we’re in the prime of Joel’s career…this is not a day to day [issue}]. Every day, we are going to expect Ben Simmons to be back here, or we trade him for a difference maker.”

also:

Kyle Neubeck @KyleNeubeck
I don’t know anyone of any significance in Sixers’ org who would leak accusations Simmons is faking mental health issue, and team has (in recent past) offered to provide resources to Simmons there *if* it’s something he feels he needs help with. Circulating otherwise is reckless

225. tell me when i'm telling 57i66135 Posted: October 21, 2021 at 05:15 PM (#6048167)

Serena Winters @SerenaWinters
Daryl Morey to @MikeMiss25: "I will say Doc Rivers defended Ben Simmons more than any human on earth, maybe ever….Noone has been more in Ben Simmons corner than Doc Rivers & Ben Simmons knows that."
pic.twitter.com/Dc10XMQvPH

uh...eh...

226. Moses Taylor loves a good maim Posted: October 21, 2021 at 05:21 PM (#6048169)

Rich Hofmann @rich_hofmann

Daryl Morey: “I would ask the question to Sixers fans: would you rather eliminate a distraction or have lower playoff odds?”

“I’m willing to go through mud, muck… It’s not not annoying, it’s a uniting factor.”

Chris Mannix @SIChrisMannix

Daryl Morey, in a Philadelphia radio interview, confirming what's been widely believed: He will not be pressured into trading Ben Simmons. "People should buckle in," Morey said. "This is going to go a long time."

Derek Bodner @DerekBodnerNBA

Morey on his timeline: "You're going to think I'm kidding, I'm not. This could (go on for) 4 years. ... We're in the prime of Joel's career...Either Ben Simmons is playing for us, or we have to get back a difference maker."

YES...HA HA
HA...YES!

227. tshipman (The Viscount of Variance)

Posted: October 21, 2021 at 05:28 PM (#6048172)

"Team is livid" doesn't entirely square with "we're perfectly happy to let him sit out all season."

Team is happy for him to sit out because they have a pretext for fining him and not paying him. They think that the longer Simmons goes without payment, the more likely they are to win.

Daryl Morey on @975TheFanatic: "Would you rather eliminate what people perceive to be a distraction, or would you rather have better playoff odds? I'll take playoff odds...Whatever we have to deal with that helps the Philadelphia 76ers win the title, we'll do it."

Isn't this just bad analysis on Morey's part? The longer this goes on, the worse off they are in terms of chances to win a title because Joel Embiid is older and more likely to be injured.

228. aberg Posted: October 21, 2021 at 05:34 PM (#6048174)

Isn't this just bad analysis on Morey's part? The longer this goes on, the worse off they are in terms of chances to win a title because Joel Embiid is older and more likely to be injured.

Yes, and you're tying up a big chunk of your cap on a player who isn't contributing. Having Simmons sit out for four years is definitively not the best thing for the team's championship odds.

229. spivey 2 Posted: October 21, 2021 at 05:35 PM (#6048175)

I assume Morey's analysis is that the offers he's gotten don't meaningfully change the landscape of their contender status. So even a small chance of Simmons playing is better than the alternative.

It's hard to know what's been offered to say if that's accurate. Certainly, I think what they're rumored to want is too much though.

It is interesting that some (many?) of the statistical models still have Philly as a top 3 seed in the East, even without Simmons.

230. asinwreck Posted: October 21, 2021 at 05:38 PM (#6048176)

The Philadelphia 76ers: It's Not Not Annoying

231. tshipman (The Viscount of Variance)

Posted: October 21, 2021 at 05:42 PM (#6048178)

It is interesting that some (many?) of the statistical models still have Philly as a top 3 seed in the East, even without Simmons.

Right, this is where I'm at. This may be the best chance that Morey has to come out of the east.

Sure, maybe CJ McCollum isn't an all-NBA talent, but he fits a lot better with Embiid than anyone else on offer. I think the 76ers would be pretty close to a co-favorite if they had just done the CJ + pick for Simmons deal months ago.

232. tell me when i'm telling 57i66135 Posted: October 21, 2021 at 05:49 PM (#6048180)

Yes, and you're tying up a big chunk of your cap on a player who isn't contributing. Having Simmons sit out for four years is definitively not the best thing for the team's championship odds.

It is interesting that some (many?) of the statistical models still have Philly as a top 3 seed in the East, even without Simmons.

ben simmons: we don't need him to show up for the regular season, and we think he's the reason we ####### suck in the post season.

233. tell me when i'm telling 57i66135 Posted: October 21, 2021 at 06:01 PM (#6048182)

Isn't this just bad analysis on Morey's part? The longer this goes on, the worse off they are in terms of chances to win a title because Joel Embiid is older and more likely to be injured

it seems like the analysis of morey's analysis comes down to how heavily you weigh the difference between a 0.3% chance to win a title and a 3% chance to win a title.

if you think that's a huge difference (and that's a reasonable pov, imo), then of course the sixers should trade ben simmons asap.

otoh, if you think there's little difference between a 97% chance to not win a title and a 99.7% chance to not win a title, then you're probably not in too much of a hurry to do something for the sake of doing something.

234. aberg Posted: October 21, 2021 at 06:09 PM (#6048185)

we think he's the reason we ####### suck in the post season.

The non-Simmons version of the Sixers are not beating Milwaukee or BKN in the playoffs without a ton of injury luck in their favor.

235. jmurph Posted: October 21, 2021 at 06:53 PM (#6048194)

Simmons the basketball player under contract is a much better trade asset than McCollum, or most of the other guys we’ve seen in trade rumors or fake trades. But I don’t see how anyone but the most desperate teams could roll the dice on him right now, after what we’ve seen the last week.

236. Tin Angel Posted: October 21, 2021 at 07:12 PM (#6048199)

I am watching the Bucks pre game and apparently the Bucks extending Grayson Allen was a “big time” move that will really help Giannis down the line.

237. tell me when i'm telling 57i66135 Posted: October 21, 2021 at 07:14 PM (#6048201)

The non-Simmons version of the Sixers are not beating Milwaukee or BKN in the playoffs without a ton of injury luck in their favor.

the inc-simmons version of the sixers couldn't beat boston, toronto, or atlanta. additionally, each of those series featured simmons getting benched for less yellow bellied playmakers as tj mcconnell, jimmy butler, shake milton and tyrese maxey.

I don’t see how anyone but the most desperate teams could roll the dice on him right now, after what we’ve seen the last week.

anyone who trades for ben simmons should probably expect that the same thing will happen to them whenever simmons decides to force his way to the lakers. so that's fun.

238. tshipman (The Viscount of Variance)

Posted: October 21, 2021 at 07:57 PM (#6048206)

it seems like the analysis of morey's analysis comes down to how heavily you weigh the difference between a 0.3% chance to win a title and a 3% chance to win a title.

I think those odds are bad.

If you're in the second round, there are 8 teams left. The worst team last year in the second round was probably Atlanta or Phoenix. I think that both those teams had a 5% chance to win the title at that point.

239. Hombre Brotani

Posted: October 21, 2021 at 08:32 PM (#6048214)

I am watching the Bucks pre game and apparently the Bucks extending Grayson Allen was a “big time” move that will really help Giannis down the line.

He's going to trip Kevin Durant in the playoffs.

240. Hombre Brotani

Posted: October 21, 2021 at 08:39 PM (#6048216)

This first quarter between the Bucks and Heat is insane.

241. jmurph Posted: October 21, 2021 at 08:41 PM (#6048217)

32-7?

242. Athletic Supporter's aunt's sorry like Aziz Posted: October 21, 2021 at 08:43 PM (#6048218)

Atlanta was +3500 to win heading into the second round (so 3% minus vig), but I think the point is accurate, at least unless a true superteam emerges.

It's only been two quarters, but I'm already sad about Jason Kidd in Dallas (I mean, for basketball reasons, the moral reasons were always sad).

243. tell me when i'm telling 57i66135 Posted: October 21, 2021 at 09:31 PM (#6048235)

I think those odds are bad.

If you're in the second round, there are 8 teams left. The worst team last year in the second round was probably Atlanta or Phoenix. I think that both those teams had a 5% chance to win the title at that point.

instead of .3% and 3% odds of winning a championship with and without a marginal simmons trade, it might be 2% and 5%. even if the range is different, the spread probably isn't.

btw, for all this talk about simmons, the tharris contract is still an elephant in the room.

244. jmurph Posted: October 21, 2021 at 09:33 PM (#6048237)

Not digging into the details yet but given that we’re not even discussing it in this thread, I feel pretty strongly that the NBA 75 rollout has been a total disaster. Is it supposed to be a big deal or not?

245. spivey 2 Posted: October 21, 2021 at 09:42 PM (#6048240)

Right decision for Milwaukee to rest everyone, but man, it's not fun to be without 4 of your top 7 and probably 5 of the top 9 guys on game 2 of the season. Especially playing a playoff team that's out for blood.

246. Moses Taylor loves a good maim Posted: October 21, 2021 at 10:43 PM (#6048249)

Holy shitballs, Steph. 25 pts in the first, 9/9 fgs and 5/5 on 3s.

247. tell me when i'm telling 57i66135 Posted: October 21, 2021 at 10:57 PM (#6048252)

Not digging into the details yet but given that we’re not even discussing it in this thread, I feel pretty strongly that the NBA 75 rollout has been a total disaster. Is it supposed to be a big deal or not?

probably not.

248. tshipman (The Viscount of Variance)

Posted: October 21, 2021 at 11:03 PM (#6048256)

Steph is flamethrower hot after the bad shooting night to open the season.

Edit: btw, the #### are these uniforms?

249. tshipman (The Viscount of Variance)

Posted: October 21, 2021 at 11:12 PM (#6048259)

Not digging into the details yet but given that we’re not even discussing it in this thread, I feel pretty strongly that the NBA 75 rollout has been a total disaster. Is it supposed to be a big deal or not?

People have been complaining about Dame making the list over Dwight, but I can't believe Dave Bing made it.

250. Moses Taylor loves a good maim Posted: October 21, 2021 at 11:13 PM (#6048260)

They're like knock off generic Knicks jerseys.

251. jmurph Posted: October 22, 2021 at 07:38 AM (#6048270)

I completely understand the Dwight thing, but I also understand why his greatness is easy to forget and dismiss. 5 (6?) great years, done being great before he turned 30 (I'd say well before), years of being famously a guy no one likes, it all adds up to being undervalued historically.

252. . . . . . . Posted: October 22, 2021 at 08:23 AM (#6048276)

Also taking a couple of #### teams and single-handedly dragging them to 59 wins is less sexy than taking a mediocre team and dragging it to a championship.

253. spivey 2 Posted: October 22, 2021 at 08:31 AM (#6048279)

Dame was the first name I saw on the list where I was like "Huh".

I do think the rollout of this was pretty poor. Maybe they don't care so much, but the top 50 was a big deal.

254. Mike A Posted: October 22, 2021 at 09:29 AM (#6048284)

Dave Bing is a weird inclusion, perhaps he got in for his off-the-court work?

The one player who always ends up on these NBA lists that kinda annoys me is Bill Walton. Doesn't anyone realize he had like two great NBA seasons? Karl Anthony-Towns - all of 25 years old - has more NBA minutes than Walton. I get that he was a great college player and captures that 60s/70s zeitgeist, but still. He seems to get more credit for being hurt than others (Ming, Hill, etc). /rant

There's some players that I feel are in that 60ish range that probably should have made it (Howard, Gasol, McGrady, etc). But overall, I think the list is alright. I've seen worse (like that writer for USAToday who had Mikan ahead of LeBron).

255. DCA Posted: October 22, 2021 at 10:32 AM (#6048291)

I bet Howard would have made the list if Derrick Rose hadn't stolen his MVP award that year. To be fair, LeBron probably deserved it most, but that was the best opportunity for someone else to break through.

256. jmurph Posted: October 22, 2021 at 10:39 AM (#6048294)

I don't feel super confident comparing the relative merits of the older generations (pre- mid to late 80s or so), but I think it's fair to say this isn't exactly a straight "best 75 players ever" list. There's some compilers, some very short peak guys, some "supporting cast on great teams" types, etc.

257. Dandy Little Glove Man Posted: October 22, 2021 at 10:43 AM (#6048296)

Dave Bing is a weird inclusion, perhaps he got in for his off-the-court work?

I'm fairly sure the league decided to keep all 50 players who were selected in 1996 by "a blue-ribbon panel of media, former players and coaches, current and former general managers and team executives." So any shaky selections from earlier years arguably stem from that.

258. tshipman (The Viscount of Variance)

Posted: October 22, 2021 at 12:03 PM (#6048308)

The one player who always ends up on these NBA lists that kinda annoys me is Bill Walton. Doesn't anyone realize he had like two great NBA seasons? Karl Anthony-Towns - all of 25 years old - has more NBA minutes than Walton. I get that he was a great college player and captures that 60s/70s zeitgeist, but still. He seems to get more credit for being hurt than others (Ming, Hill, etc). /rant

Being the best guy in the league is worth something extra, IMO. I don't mind Walton as much. FWIW, Ben Taylor had him in the 50-60 range, I think about 3 years ago.

259. spivey 2 Posted: October 22, 2021 at 12:30 PM (#6048317)

I saw Jerry Lucas catch some flak on my NBA nerd twitter.

I also wonder about Unseld and Thurmond. Seems like those guys mainly get credit for being some of the tougher matchups for Wilt, Russell, and Kareem... but how many centers from that era do we need, especially given we're talking about an era where there was like 8-22 teams. Unseld's numbers in particular are pretty underwhelming. Cause then we also have Elvin Hayes, Reed, etc.

I think Ginobili is someone missing. Guess it depends if you give international credit, but he was really, really good. I dunno. His minutes are low, but a huge impact stat guy, great plus-minus, killer playoff resume.

260. aberg Posted: October 22, 2021 at 12:43 PM (#6048320)

Unseld's numbers in particular are pretty underwhelming

How many MVPs are left off? I haven't seen the full list, but it can't be many. Rose? McAdoo? there aren't even many edge cases for former MVPs.

261. tshipman (The Viscount of Variance)

Posted: October 22, 2021 at 12:51 PM (#6048321)

I also wonder about Unseld and Thurmond. Seems like those guys mainly get credit for being some of the tougher matchups for Wilt, Russell, and Kareem... but how many centers from that era do we need, especially given we're talking about an era where there was like 8-22 teams. Unseld's numbers in particular are pretty underwhelming. Cause then we also have Elvin Hayes, Reed, etc.

At least with Unseld and Thurmond, you can make the argument that they were associated with winning. Stats from that era are shitty, so maybe Wes Unseld was actually Draymond (of course, they left off Draymond, so ...).

262. Dandy Little Glove Man Posted: October 22, 2021 at 01:14 PM (#6048323)

There's really no argument for Maravich on merit. He was an inefficient volume scorer and subpar defender whose teams were never any good. I think he's always been given bonus points for entertainment value, the NCAA scoring record, and being a long-range shooter playing without a 3-point line.

263. Mike A Posted: October 22, 2021 at 01:23 PM (#6048325)

Being the best guy in the league is worth something extra, IMO. I don't mind Walton as much. FWIW, Ben Taylor had him in the 50-60 range, I think about 3 years ago.

There's always difficulty in ranking players with very high but brief peaks (ex Sandy Koufax). I feel Walton's peak was just too short, but I understand the other side. He's not the worst selection, I'd probably give that to the aforementioned Dave Bing (or possibly DeBusschere).

Speaking of, I saw that Bing was on the original Top 50 voting committee. I wonder if he voted for himself, heh.

The only MVPs left off the list were Rose and Jokic IIRC.

264. Booey Posted: October 22, 2021 at 02:52 PM (#6048339)

Anyone else notice that the top 75 list actually has 76 players on it?

They kept the original 50, added 21 new players who played all or almost all of their careers after the original 1996 selection (Allen, Giannis, Melo, Kobe, Steph, AD, Duncan, Durant, Garnett, Harden, Iverson, LeBron, Kidd, Kawhi, Lillard, Nash, Dirk, CP3, Pierce, Wade, Westbrook), plus 3 who were still in their prime in 1996 and hadn't done enough yet to make the original list (Miller, Payton, Rodman), plus 2 of the more egregious snubs from the original top 50 (McAdoo, Dominique).

That's 76. I even cross checked the original 50 (cuz work is boring) to make sure they didn't drop a name.

265. tshipman (The Viscount of Variance)

Posted: October 22, 2021 at 02:56 PM (#6048340)

They released a note saying that it was 76 because there was a tie in the vote. Shams had that I think.

266. spivey 2 Posted: October 22, 2021 at 03:05 PM (#6048343)

I knew he'd be on the list and I'm tired of having the arguments from his playing days, but I really don't think Iverson is anywhere near a top 75 player of all time.

267. Mike A Posted: October 22, 2021 at 03:14 PM (#6048344)

Klay Thompson isn't happy about being left off:

"Woke up this AM, still pissed about this stupid ass list. Ga damn I can't wait to hoop again. Sick of the disrespect. Winning isn't everything to some people like it is to me I guess."

268. My name is Votto, and I love to get Moppo Posted: October 22, 2021 at 03:34 PM (#6048347)

I think I heard that all of the Original 50 were automatically included. So there were only 25 potential new players, and that includes guys that were early in their careers like Jason Kidd and KG.

EDIT: Booey beat me to it, and with more detail.

269. rr: over-entitled starf@ck3r Posted: October 22, 2021 at 04:10 PM (#6048351)

Walton: I am a defender of his presence on these types of lists. He was the key to the 1977 title; that team was similar to the 1994 Rockets and the 2003 Spurs in that it was one awesome two-way big and a bunch of pretty good guys. The 1977 title remains the only one in Portland's history, even though they have had many good teams. If the list were total VORP or whatever, then sure, leave him off. But he was a high-impact guy in his very limited time. Also, he was a key reserve on the 1986 Celtics, one of the three or four greatest teams in history.

As to the pre-merger guys (Bing, DeBusschere, centers) I am not really in a position to evaluate. There is likely some generational bias in both directions. I think it is fair to note about guys like Unseld, Thurmond, Hayes, that bigs ruled the game they played. Not sure how that plays in.

Been too slammed at work and with personal stuff to take a serious look at rosters, etc. Only know what is going on with the Lakers. I will say that I kind of like Chicago's team and I think that they will be pretty good.

270. Moses Taylor loves a good maim Posted: October 22, 2021 at 04:40 PM (#6048355)

Jordan Schultz @Schultz_Report ·8m

Breaking: The NBA is preparing for a massive story accusing #Suns owner Robert Sarver of racism, sexism and sexual harassment in a series of incidents, sources say. With enough evidence to support such claims, there’s a real chance the league would forcibly remove Sarver.

271. Hombre Brotani

Posted: October 22, 2021 at 04:43 PM (#6048356)

Bob Lanier is a huge snub to me. The only MVPs who aren't on the list are Derrick Rose (injury), Jokic (another snub, but will almost certainly be on such a list by the end of his career), and Lanier.

272. aberg Posted: October 22, 2021 at 05:16 PM (#6048360)

plus 3 who were still in their prime in 1996 and hadn't done enough yet to make the original list (Miller, Payton, Rodman)

It's weird to me that Rodman's 97+98 were enough to push him onto the list. IMO, most of his best years were well before 1996 and he was just piling up rebounding stats and wrestling matches by that point. Maybe he was just to nuclear to put on the list at that point.

273. tshipman (The Viscount of Variance)

Posted: October 22, 2021 at 05:17 PM (#6048361)

Re: 270:
DeAndre Ayton sends his regards, Robert.

274. aberg Posted: October 22, 2021 at 05:31 PM (#6048365)

Pau Gasol- there's another missing name.

275. Booey Posted: October 22, 2021 at 05:57 PM (#6048368)

#272 - Maybe Rodman belongs more in the category of original snubs that they rectified, alongside McAdoo and Wilkins rather than the guys like Miller and Payton who added a lot more after the 1996 cut off. Those were just arbitrary categories I came up with off the top of my head.

That said, 2 extra titles - against the undisputed greatest and most likeable team of all time, no less - is a lot more than just compiling rebounds and wrestling matches... ;-)

276. Tom Cervo, backup catcher Posted: October 22, 2021 at 06:12 PM (#6048374)

That said, 2 extra titles - against the undisputed greatest and most likeable team of all time, no less - is a lot more than just compiling rebounds and wrestling matches... ;-)

That's right, and nobody can argue against this objectively true statement.

277. Hombre Brotani

Posted: October 22, 2021 at 07:05 PM (#6048379)

The people that Stockton and Malone turned out to be really makes me sad.

278. tshipman (The Viscount of Variance)

Posted: October 22, 2021 at 07:25 PM (#6048382)

I think Rodman is more about the way that statistical analysis has caused his game to become more appreciated.

Rodman and Curry are probably the two players who have benefited most from new approaches to analyzing the game.

279. asinwreck Posted: October 22, 2021 at 07:43 PM (#6048384)

The Sarver news makes me want to live long enough to read Chris Paul's post-career autobiography.

280. tell me when i'm telling 57i66135 Posted: October 22, 2021 at 07:48 PM (#6048385)

It's weird to me that Rodman's 97+98 were enough to push him onto the list. IMO, most of his best years were well before 1996 and he was just piling up rebounding stats and wrestling matches by that point. Maybe he was just to nuclear to put on the list at that point.

it's also possible that the deal leader of a certain hermit kingdom was able to bribe certain members of certain selection committees to achieve a certain result.

Pau Gasol- there's another missing name.

he was only the best player on 2 title winning teams; it's not like he ever led the league in scoring or anything.

281. tell me when i'm telling 57i66135 Posted: October 22, 2021 at 07:48 PM (#6048386)

The Sarver news makes me want to live long enough to read Chris Paul's post-career autobiography.

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