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Friday, October 15, 2021

NBA 2021-2022 Season Thread

I estimate there are maybe 10-12 Primates left on this site, and none of us want to post this thread.

Moses Taylor loves a good maim Posted: October 15, 2021 at 11:39 AM | 4178 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
  Tags: get me out of philly, nba, off top

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   2501. My name is Votto, and I love to get Moppo Posted: February 08, 2022 at 03:51 PM (#6064304)
I think the thing with Haliburton is that he's been trapped in this situation with the Kings where he's been deferring too much. His usage is 4 points higher with Fox off than with Fox on.


That was his reputation in the draft - that he was a cog who any team can plug-and-play, but not a lead guy. I don't know that he'll ever have a high usage.

I think Sabonis is a superior player to Holmes. What Holmes does, he does well, but Sabonis can create his own shot, and does a lot more outside of the paint.

Weird trade to be sure. I guess I like it better for Indy since they needed to break up Turner & Sabonis, and they got useful pieces back.
   2502. Der-K's tired of these fruits from poisoned trees Posted: February 08, 2022 at 03:52 PM (#6064305)
to recap:
The Pacers have agreed to send Domantas Sabonis, Jeremy Lamb, Justin Holiday, and a '27 2nd to the Kings in exchange for Tyrese Haliburton, Buddy Hield and Tristan Thompson.
The Pelicans have acquired McCollum, Nance, and Snell from the Trail Blazers for Hart, Satoransky, Alexander-Walker, Louzada, the Pelicans’ protected 2022 first-round pick (currently #9), and two future second-round picks.
   2503. Der-K's tired of these fruits from poisoned trees Posted: February 08, 2022 at 03:54 PM (#6064306)
(deleted)
   2504. tshipman Posted: February 08, 2022 at 04:02 PM (#6064307)
I hate this trade for the Kings for so many reasons:

1. Haliburton is good, young, and can fit in seamlessly along so many team constructs that this feels like selling low on him.
2. Sabonis is exactly the wrong kind of player for the Kings to pick up, as he puts a ceiling on the team, does not actually help drive winning that much, and sort of guarantees that they'll be in contention for the 10th seed when they should be looking to be good or be bad.
3. This means that they're focusing the team around De'Aaron Fox, who has all of one year, three coaches ago, of being a good player.
4. This means that they aren't trading Harrison Barnes, despite this being the peak of his value
5. They probably need to trade Holmes to clear space when he was their second best player.
6. They are now at the cap with a 10 seed with no path to improvement
7. Buddy Hield was thrown into this trade, apparently for salary matching purposes, when other teams evaluate him as an asset
   2505. PJ Martinez Posted: February 08, 2022 at 04:05 PM (#6064309)
FWIW, I think Sabonis is a bit underrated and Haliburton is a bit overrated. Haliburton has a nice 3pt%, but even with it, his usage is low, his TS% is only good (doesn't get to the line or put pressure on the rim and his 3pt volume is only ok in today's game), and his +/- numbers have been meh each of the last two years.
But how many guys put up similar numbers in their age 20 and 21 seasons? Also, FWIW, he's getting to the line twice as often this year as he did last year, though still not very much.

Re: overrated/underrated, there seems to be a pretty stark stathead/non-stathead divide w/r/t the rating of Haliburton.

Edit: I basically agree with all the points in 2504, though I don't really have a strong opinion about Sabonis.
   2506. . . . . . . Posted: February 08, 2022 at 04:05 PM (#6064310)
to tie back to earlier discussion isn't Haliburton, at least in his peak years, going to be a perfect third best player with two high usage stars?
   2507. jmurph Posted: February 08, 2022 at 04:17 PM (#6064313)
7. Buddy Hield was thrown into this trade, apparently for salary matching purposes, when other teams evaluate him as an asset

I very seriously doubt Hield is seen as an asset. He's a 29 year old(!) all offense player who isn't very good on offense.
   2508. Moses Taylor loves a good maim Posted: February 08, 2022 at 04:23 PM (#6064314)
K.C. Johnson @KCJHoop .49m
According to the Bulls’ injury report, Ayo Dosunmu is in concussion protocol and will miss the game in Charlotte.


Yippee. More good luck. He actually hit heads with Matt Thomas Sunday and it looked bad, but he stayed in the game and no one looked at him. He had his worst game of the year last night.
   2509. KronicFatigue Posted: February 08, 2022 at 04:41 PM (#6064318)
off topic, but while reading through /r/nba I saw efg explained to someone who had never heard of it. It got me thinking that "points per shot attempt" might be an easier way to express the stat. There's probably a way to modify ts% the same way. I feel like I could visualize those stats better. Thoughts?
   2510. Der-K's tired of these fruits from poisoned trees Posted: February 08, 2022 at 04:46 PM (#6064321)
i'm good with efg% and ts% as is, but it's a fair concern. i've seen points per shot attempt used and (not much) where these percentages are scaled to fg% (bad idea, imo).
   2511. Moses Taylor loves a good maim Posted: February 08, 2022 at 04:53 PM (#6064323)
Beal going to have season ending wrist surgery. Wizards probably should sell now.
   2512. tshipman Posted: February 08, 2022 at 04:59 PM (#6064325)
Beal going to have season ending wrist surgery. Wizards probably should sell now.


I think they should go the other way. They really need a guy who can raise their floor, and they have a surplus of bigs on their roster.

Maybe something like this?
   2513. Der-K's tired of these fruits from poisoned trees Posted: February 08, 2022 at 05:01 PM (#6064327)
tbf, wizards should sell then. now is too late.
   2514. aberg Posted: February 08, 2022 at 05:50 PM (#6064334)
I like both Sabonis and Haliburton. I just don't understand how Sacramento, at 20-35, thinks they're in a position to consolidate assets to get one veteran star (at a position where they already have a solid starter, no less). This trade signals to me that they think Fox, Barnes, and Sabonis are the core they want to roll with for the foreseeable future.
   2515. asinwreck Posted: February 08, 2022 at 05:51 PM (#6064335)
Spend a few hours away from this thread due to work, and look what Sacramento does. Good lord.

I see this as one of two scenarios. It's possible the Kings preferred to move Fox instead of Haliburton but the rest of the league is aware of Fox's shortcomings and no deals were offered. The more disturbing possibility is the Kings thought Fox was a foundational player blocking Haliburton, making the younger player expendable. Why do I have the feeling it's the latter?

I hate that Haliburton is on the Pacers, but I am glad that he is now free of the Kings.



   2516. CFBF is Obsessed with Art Deco Posted: February 08, 2022 at 06:08 PM (#6064337)
tbf, wizards should sell then. now is too late.


But by the time you posted this, hasn't now become then?
   2517. 57i66135 is a hard word for me. Posted: February 08, 2022 at 06:59 PM (#6064344)
What Blazers spent to get Powell, Covington, Nance:
— Gary Trent
— Rodney Hood
— Derrick Jones
— 3 first round picks

What Blazers get from trading Powell, Covington, Nance:
— Eric Bledsoe
— Justise Winslow
— Keon Johnson
— 1 first round pick

Somebody grab the phone from the GM. pic.twitter.com/htxB1kycqr

— StatMuse (@statmuse) February 8, 2022
   2518. tshipman Posted: February 08, 2022 at 07:36 PM (#6064347)
That's just bad analysis by StatMuse. A significant part of both trades is the money.

Edit: uh ... what?
Having already moved Norm Powell and CJ McCollum, Portland is still engaged in conversations with Detroit on acquiring forward Jerami Grant, sources said.
   2519. asinwreck Posted: February 08, 2022 at 07:45 PM (#6064348)
The Celtics have raced out to a 14-0 lead in Brooklyn.

EDIT: 22-2 with 6:33 left in the 1st quarter. Barclays Center very quiet.

EDIT: 28-2 with 5:08 left in the 1st quarter. This is looking like a college game where a minor team hosts Kentucky for the revenue and doesn't mind the blowout. I think Joe Tsai minds this blowout.
   2520. asinwreck Posted: February 08, 2022 at 08:02 PM (#6064351)
The Nets went on a torrid, 11-0 run in the last couple of minutes. The quarter ends with Boston only up by 19.
   2521. Your favorite TFTIO, me! Posted: February 08, 2022 at 08:31 PM (#6064357)
That's just bad analysis by StatMuse. A significant part of both trades is the money.

I was gonna say. It feels a little like Cronin might be under management pressures other than improving championship equity.
   2522. spivey Posted: February 08, 2022 at 08:33 PM (#6064358)
Portland and New Orleans have no idea what they're doing.

I think both are just as bad of situations as the Kings. All 3 have poor talent evaluators trying to win now. But they don't have enough talent to win now, so they keep making trades and moves, but each move keeps setting them back further and further because they're bad at their job. It's actually kind of funny to watch. If Zion comes good, there's no way he's not asking out in 2 or 3 years.

FWIW, I agree the Haliburton trade is bad for the Kings. I would have seriously considered dealing him anyways. I think people talk about him as one of the best young talents in the NBA, and I'm just not willing to go there. But if they dealt him, Barnes should have been able to get you at least something equivalent to LeVert, but anyways. What's amusing is the Spurs have a slightly positive SRS and are easily the best team for the 10th seed, even with these moves. It'd be kind of funny if they finished 10th over these two teams trying desperately to win to save the jobs of guys who are almost certainly not acting in their team's best interest.

Brooklyn is playing like an NBDL team. This is hard to watch.
   2523. Your favorite TFTIO, me! Posted: February 08, 2022 at 08:41 PM (#6064359)
The ersatz Pacers look ... not much like a basketball team.
   2524. asinwreck Posted: February 08, 2022 at 09:14 PM (#6064365)
Poor Patty Mills. Three quarters into the game after he was announced as one of the players in the All-Star 3-point challenge, he is currently at -47 to "lead" the Nets. Blake's having a better game at -38.
   2525. jmurph Posted: February 08, 2022 at 09:17 PM (#6064366)
As much joy as it would bring to me personally, if the Sixers go into the playoffs with Maxey and Tobias as their primary initiators the whole organization should be prosecuted.
   2526. jmurph Posted: February 08, 2022 at 09:19 PM (#6064367)
This is great:
The NBA announced the participants for the three events that will take place on All-Star Saturday Night in Cleveland -- the 3-point contest, slam dunk contest and a revamped skills challenge that will feature three teams of three players.

The new skills challenge format will allow Milwaukee Bucks star Giannis Antetokounmpo to team up with his brothers, Alex and Thanasis, to compete together in a four-round competition that tests shooting, passing and dribbling.
   2527. 57i66135 is a hard word for me. Posted: February 08, 2022 at 09:24 PM (#6064369)
The new skills challenge format will allow Milwaukee Bucks star Giannis Antetokounmpo to team up with his brothers, Alex and Thanasis, to compete together in a four-round competition that tests shooting, passing and dribbling.
the brothers antetokounmpii (giannis, kostas and thanasis) vs. the brothers holiday (jrue, justin, aaron) vs. the brothers(-ish) curry (steph, seth and austin rivers)
   2528. Russlan thinks deGrom is da bomb Posted: February 08, 2022 at 10:35 PM (#6064374)
Russell Wesbtrook is playing with absolutely no confidence. In the past, he was perhaps too confident but now he's afraid to shoot and he just doesn't look like he can make any shot right now. He is looking Ben Simmonsish when it comes to being afraid to shot, looking like he has no belief that he can actually make a shot. 4 bricks and 2 bad turnovers. He is not really playable right now.
   2529. Russlan thinks deGrom is da bomb Posted: February 08, 2022 at 11:12 PM (#6064377)
I guess I am just wrong about the Lakers and this year. It is hard for me to understand how a team with LBJ and AD in relatively good health, even without the greatest supporting staff just can't even compete against true contenders.

The Lakers shot 50% against the Bucks in the first half and are still down by 22 points. I am not even sure how that is even possible.
   2530. smileyy Posted: February 08, 2022 at 11:15 PM (#6064378)
I am not even sure how that is even possible.


Well, when you let the Bucks score 78 points on 68% shooting...
   2531. smileyy Posted: February 08, 2022 at 11:16 PM (#6064379)
They traded their entire supporting cast for someone who is

afraid to shoot, looking like he has no belief that he can actually make a shot
   2532. Russlan thinks deGrom is da bomb Posted: February 09, 2022 at 12:47 AM (#6064384)
I am actually all that down on the Lakers offense. I am confident that it won't be their offense that is their eventual downfall. The Bucks just blistered the Lakers in the first half and no one on the Lakers could do anything with Giannis.

The lat few games they have just played horribly defensively to start the game. They have given up 70+ points in the first half against the Knicks and Bucks. The Knicks will let you back in that game but the Bucks didn't even let the Lakers come close.

I honestly think the Lakers need to move Russ to the bench even if it is just to get a better defender in there.
   2533. GregD Posted: February 09, 2022 at 01:16 AM (#6064386)
the brothers(-ish) curry (steph, seth and austin rivers)
add brother in law Damion Lee
   2534. I don't want to talk about Rocco Posted: February 09, 2022 at 02:43 AM (#6064389)
This post at Brewhoop made me laugh

Dear Lakers, Clippers, and Nets,

Enjoy the play-in tourney.

Regards,

NBA Fans in Flyover Country
   2535. jmurph Posted: February 09, 2022 at 07:45 AM (#6064392)
I haven't watched much of the Lakers so maybe this is explained by weird lineup things, but Davis having a -2 on/off is pretty shocking.
   2536. spivey Posted: February 09, 2022 at 08:51 AM (#6064395)
Lowe has mentioned a lot that Russ/AD/LeBron has a net rating of +7/100 possessions. I know the good sports writers are often using sites like Cleaning The Glass that cost money and do things like filter out garbage time, etc. But here, that 3 man group is -1.6/100. I refuse to believe garbage time is that big of a factor. I know he's also mentioned AD-without-center lineups, so maybe he's looking at the Big3 lineups without a center. Which we would expect to be better. But you're also starting to deal with pretty small sample sizes there (bbref says AD has only played 24% of his minutes as a PF, and while those will be disproportionately with LeBron and Russ, we're talking about probably about 100 minutes or so.


Lakers are 23rd in offense, 16th in defense. Both sides of the ball are problems. On the offense and defense Four Factors, they're pretty mediocre in most places. They generate turnovers well, and get to the line. But they don't have enough shooters period, let alone good shooters. They don't rebound well on either side. They turn the ball over (Benching Russ should help here). Even if you squint and say, ok, a lineup of Nunn/Monk/Reaves/LeBron/AD will be tough, the lineups start to fall apart the second you get into the bench.

Defense is hard to measure or assign credit, and it can be easy to lose appreciation of something when you're really good at it. But they obviously didn't give enough credit to a lot of the guys they let go. They also replaced a lot of them with total sieves, both in a point of attack and team defense setting.
   2537. Moses Taylor loves a good maim Posted: February 09, 2022 at 10:26 AM (#6064410)
Austin Krell @NBAKrell

“We are in the deal zone between Harden and Simmons,” per @WindhorstESPN on @GetUpESPN “I suspect they are gonna get it done. I can’t tell you they are gonna get it done. But it’s trending in that direction.”


Yes, the deal zone!

I trade Simmons for Harden in a heartbeat if I'm Philly, but there's always going to be the voice in the back of my head telling me to be worried about the guy forcing his way out of 2 places in less than 2 seasons who is already 32 and borderline overweight and I'll be paying over $60mil a year in a few years.
   2538. jmurph Posted: February 09, 2022 at 11:21 AM (#6064417)
I would 100% rather have Jarrett Allen than Ben Simmons if I'm trying to win right now. If the Nets made all those moves last year to end up with Ben Simmons... man, that's rough.

EDIT: I also just think they're crazy to give up right now. What's Harden going to feel like when Durant comes back in a couple weeks? Or when the rules change in New York and Kyrie can play home games?
   2539. tshipman Posted: February 09, 2022 at 12:25 PM (#6064427)
EDIT: I also just think they're crazy to give up right now. What's Harden going to feel like when Durant comes back in a couple weeks? Or when the rules change in New York and Kyrie can play home games?


Giving up now is a matter of risk mitigation. There's a chance that Durant/Kyrie play and Harden feels great and the Nets win a championship. That is the upside, although I think even if all three are playing, I would not think of them as the favorites.

If the Nets don't win a championship, you risk Harden walking for nothing in the offseason. That is a disaster for the Nets franchise. You have Kyrie, Durant and minimums at that point, with no path to contention and no picks. You're back in the dark days of 2015 or whatever, where you have a terrible record and you don't even get your own pick.

   2540. jmurph Posted: February 09, 2022 at 12:32 PM (#6064429)
I wouldn't count on Kyrie being there, either!

Yeah I don't think they're in a great place at all. But I do think the risk of Harden walking for nothing is dramatically overstated (the Sixers would have to somehow clear out like $60 million). It's likely to be a sign and trade or opt in and trade if he wants to leave. I think you'd have to specifically really value the Sixers Simmons+ return in order to make that move now or in the summer.
   2541. Fourth True Outcome Posted: February 09, 2022 at 12:45 PM (#6064434)
But I do think the risk of Harden walking for nothing is dramatically overstated

Doesn't this depend a lot on how fed up with the Kyrie situation Harden is? If he came to Brooklyn to not have to be the guy dragging scrubs to victory he sure has had to do that this year. It's easy to imagine him walking this offseason because the three-headed monster never really came together and the grass is greener elsewhere, even if it isn't Philly. I'm assuming the Nets are playing ball here because they think he is a real flight risk as much as because they like Simmons. Presumably Simmons+ is a much better return than they'd get on a sign and trade under the gun, if that is the calculus.
   2542. spivey Posted: February 09, 2022 at 12:49 PM (#6064436)
I'm not a cap ninja, but there are enough such ninjas in the NBA that I think the 76ers can probably move Harris and Simmons into other team's cap space without needing to attach much overall. Simmons you could probably do for free and maybe even still get assets. Harris - I mean, Portland would probably take him for just a first, right?

I think the other piece of risk mitigation for the Nets is, well, I'm a lot less comfortable giving a supermax to Harden right now than I was 8 months ago. They probably didn't expect him to drop off like this when they traded for him. Joe Harris hasn't really played this year and I think has been an underdiscussed issue why Brooklyn has struggled - he's a very good player. But it's easy for me to squint and imagine a team of Mills/Irving, Harris, defensive wing, Simmons, and Durant being a pretty big pain in the ass in the playoffs, this year. The bench will be very, very bad of course.

The other thing for Brooklyn is - if everything truly falls apart. Durant probably would ask to be traded, too, in a year or so. You can recoup some good value there.
   2543. Fourth True Outcome Posted: February 09, 2022 at 12:57 PM (#6064438)
The other piece here, I guess, is that the only report I've seen that things are in the Dealz Zone is Windhorst, and Woj apparently threw cold water on the idea that a deal is close or actively being worked on ESPN, so jmurph might have the right of it anyway. The next couple of days should be fun!
   2544. jmurph Posted: February 09, 2022 at 12:59 PM (#6064439)
Harris - I mean, Portland would probably take him for just a first, right?

He's owed just shy of $80 million over the next two. I would guess a pick in the 25-30 range would not be enough to take that on, no. At a minimum I'd expect the Sixers to also have to eat a bad salary coming back. Why wouldn't they?

I could be proven wrong before I finish typing this post, but I just think this is posturing on the part of the Sixers. They don't want to attach picks to Harris to move him for nothing, figure out a separate Simmons deal that also returns no salary, to get $47 million under the cap in order to be able to sign Harden.
   2545. tshipman Posted: February 09, 2022 at 01:00 PM (#6064441)
I think the other piece of risk mitigation for the Nets is, well, I'm a lot less comfortable giving a supermax to Harden right now than I was 8 months ago. They probably didn't expect him to drop off like this when they traded for him. Joe Harris hasn't really played this year and I think has been an underdiscussed issue why Brooklyn has struggled - he's a very good player. But it's easy for me to squint and imagine a team of Mills/Irving, Harris, defensive wing, Simmons, and Durant being a pretty big pain in the ass in the playoffs, this year. The bench will be very, very bad of course.


Joe Harris being out and the coaching being sort of poor are the two things that I don't think are really discussed about the Nets.

If he came to Brooklyn to not have to be the guy dragging scrubs to victory he sure has had to do that this year.


The thing is that it's not just this year that he's had to do that. Harden has played just 235 minutes over the last *two years* with Kyrie and Durant on the court. He's played over 1000 minutes with neither of them on the court.
   2546. asinwreck Posted: February 09, 2022 at 01:02 PM (#6064443)
16 total games with the three of them playing together. That's it.
   2547. tshipman Posted: February 09, 2022 at 01:04 PM (#6064444)
Sure, but Harden has played more minutes solo than either KD or Kyrie (1069 vs. 645 and 787)
   2548. 57i66135 is a hard word for me. Posted: February 09, 2022 at 01:05 PM (#6064445)
Derek Bodner @DerekBodnerNBA
*If* the trade did happen, would Harden's jumper even survive the trip to Philly?
Keith Pompey @PompeyOnSixers
Joel Embiid won’t reach out to Ben Simmons if the Sixers keep him at trade deadline: ‘I don’t get paid to babysit’ inquirer.com/sixers/philade… via @phillyinquirer
Jon Johnson @jonjohnsonwip
Nets are currently asking for “Ben Simmons, & two, or three other pieces” in exchange for James Harden, per @Brian Windhorst.
   2549. asinwreck Posted: February 09, 2022 at 01:07 PM (#6064446)
Oh, I say that in agreement. This is not what he expected at all, and even though Marks has gotten good-looking vets (Patty Mills, who had a -47 yesterday) to supplement the roster, injuries and illness mean there's a lot more time with Bruce Brown and James Johnson than Kyrie and KD. That's a far cry from his expectations 13 months ago.
   2550. Mellow Mouse, Benevolent Space Tyrant Posted: February 09, 2022 at 01:18 PM (#6064449)
Based on my impression on how the Nets are run, they would basically sit down the big three and find out what they wanted to do. The NBA is star driven and the Nets are next door to star run.

Put another way Durant is the ghost GM and Kyrie and Harden are his assistants.
   2551. If on a winter's night a traveling violation Posted: February 09, 2022 at 01:19 PM (#6064450)
Another -7 and Patty Staxx would have doubled his previous season low in +/- (-27 against the Jazz last Friday).
   2552. jmurph Posted: February 09, 2022 at 01:28 PM (#6064452)
jmurph might have the right of it anyway

Never a safe bet!

Just for the sake of clarity, I guess I could see Brooklyn making the trade even though I don't expect them to. But I think if that happens it's some combination of the things everyone has already mentioned: Harden is quitting on them, the Nets prefer Simmons to Harden on the supermax going forward, etc. I just think the specific idea that the Sixers have some kind of leverage because they can get sign him outright in the summer is exaggerated, and is just Morey posturing in the media.
   2553. Mellow Mouse, Benevolent Space Tyrant Posted: February 09, 2022 at 01:35 PM (#6064453)
This is your obvious, but still important, reminder. Both Harden and Simmons are on max deals. And yet there is a huge difference in the money involved. Harden will make way, way more money (I don't remember the exact figures and am too lazy to look it up).
   2554. Moses Taylor loves a good maim Posted: February 09, 2022 at 01:36 PM (#6064454)
Put another way Durant is the ghost GM and Kyrie and Harden are his assistants.

To some extent, definitely. I mean, I guess KD has to be ok with Simmons coming back for that to even be considered. I think in this case, Harden wants out - or has convinced the Nets he really will walk - so it's not like KD has to be ok with Harden leaving. I think the Nets would be pretty dumb to be seriously that concerned with what Kyrie wants, so they probably do.

Nets are currently asking for “Ben Simmons, & two, or three other pieces” in exchange for James Harden, per @Brian Windhorst.

As they should, but they also have to realize they're not gonna get back the same value to gave up for Harden last year.

Harris - I mean, Portland would probably take him for just a first, right?

He's owed just shy of $80 million over the next two. I would guess a pick in the 25-30 range would not be enough to take that on, no.


Depends on FA goes, and remember, Portland likes to spend like crazy. I absolutely wouldn't be surprised if they didn't even insist on that much to take THarris. Does Dame like him or not?
   2555. Moses Taylor loves a good maim Posted: February 09, 2022 at 01:45 PM (#6064459)
This is your obvious, but still important, reminder. Both Harden and Simmons are on max deals. And yet there is a huge difference in the money involved. Harden will make way, way more money (I don't remember the exact figures and am too lazy to look it up).

Simmons was 5yr/$177mil and has 3 more years left after this one. As for Harden, from Athletic:

His max deal, if he tacked on a four-year extension this summer, is $275 million over five years, including $62 million in 2026-27.
   2556. jmurph Posted: February 09, 2022 at 01:46 PM (#6064460)
I haven't seen any reporting that the Nets are specifically interested in Simmons, any reporting that Harden has demanded to be moved or told them he would leave, and further that he has specifically demanded to go to the Sixers (other than that they were on his list last time around). Woj is saying there are no discussions at all. The entire notion of a Simmons for Harden swap seems almost entirely birthed from NBA twitter combined with "because Morey wants him." This is kind of a weird situation!

EDIT: Another factor: they're both in win now mode! In the same conference! Could face each other as early as round 1!
   2557. jmurph Posted: February 09, 2022 at 01:47 PM (#6064462)
As for Harden, from Athletic:
His max deal, if he tacked on a four-year extension this summer, is $275 million over five years, including $62 million in 2026-27.

I believe it starts at 47 and change (based on whatever podcast I was listening to earlier).

   2558. spivey Posted: February 09, 2022 at 01:51 PM (#6064464)
I haven't seen any reporting that the Nets are specifically interested in Simmons, any reporting that Harden has demanded to be moved or told them he would leave, and further that he has specifically demanded to go to the Sixers (other than that they were on his list last time around). Woj is saying there are no discussions at all. The entire notion of a Simmons for Harden swap seems almost entirely birthed from NBA twitter combined with "because Morey wants him." This is kind of a weird situation!


I dunno. Ramona Shelburne was on The Lowe Post yesterday saying that there's intel that Harden is interested in Philadelphia. And Shams reported that the Nets are open to dealing Harden.

I think there's way too much smoke, with reporters, for there to not be fire.
   2559. 57i66135 is a hard word for me. Posted: February 09, 2022 at 01:57 PM (#6064465)
i've been wrong about nearly everything regarding simmons for the last year, but fwiw, i don't think this is happening.
   2560. Moses Taylor loves a good maim Posted: February 09, 2022 at 02:01 PM (#6064467)
I am appalled by this thread's lack of respect for the Deal Zone.
   2561. Mellow Mouse, Benevolent Space Tyrant Posted: February 09, 2022 at 02:04 PM (#6064468)
I am in the zone. The zone of the deal. The Deal Zone.
   2562. Mellow Mouse, Benevolent Space Tyrant Posted: February 09, 2022 at 02:06 PM (#6064469)
I kind of want the Simmons thing to drag on into the off season. It has already gone on so long that everyone is sick of it, so what is a few more months of endless speculation? Other than a wasted year of Embiid.
   2563. Your favorite TFTIO, me! Posted: February 09, 2022 at 02:06 PM (#6064470)
"Knicks Expected To Hire Gersson Rosas As Consultant" -- can I interest Dolan in a lightly used Kurt Rambis? Or a Randy Wittman? Or a David Kahn?
   2564. asinwreck Posted: February 09, 2022 at 02:11 PM (#6064471)
What, Isiah Thomas wasn't available?

Dolan's corporate culture is remarkable.
   2565. Your favorite TFTIO, me! Posted: February 09, 2022 at 02:14 PM (#6064472)
I mean, I don't think Rosas was bad, from a basketball perspective, but wow.
   2566. tshipman Posted: February 09, 2022 at 02:16 PM (#6064473)
Just for the sake of clarity, I guess I could see Brooklyn making the trade even though I don't expect them to. But I think if that happens it's some combination of the things everyone has already mentioned: Harden is quitting on them, the Nets prefer Simmons to Harden on the supermax going forward, etc. I just think the specific idea that the Sixers have some kind of leverage because they can get sign him outright in the summer is exaggerated, and is just Morey posturing in the media.


I think that some huge percentage is Morey posturing in the media. It's really hard to tell how much is real because the Nets are incredibly driven by players. If Kevin Durant thinks that Harden is checked out, a deal is happening. If KD wants to keep things as they are, then a deal isn't going to happen.

That is obviously super opaque from the outside.
   2567. 57i66135 is a hard word for me. Posted: February 09, 2022 at 02:16 PM (#6064474)
   2568. asinwreck Posted: February 09, 2022 at 02:21 PM (#6064476)
He sounds perfect for the Knicks.
Gersson Rosas’ dismissal just days before the Minnesota Timberwolves opened training camp is stunning on its face, a change at the top of basketball operations as the team begins a critical season and is in discussions to try to trade for a disgruntled star to bolster its chances.

It is also the culmination of months of evaluation by ownership and the franchise’s high-ranking officials about the state of Rosas’ leadership and the direction of the franchise under his watch. Ownership has listened to a vocal contingent of staffers express concern about the way Rosas conducted his business, sources told The Athletic, and finally came to the conclusion that they could not wait any longer to address the situation.

Rosas’ reign was described as dysfunctional, with tension rippling through the front office, according to some sources. Outside of it, rival team executives and agents would complain about how Rosas treated relationships and negotiations. The complaints reached as high as the ownership level over the last several weeks, lending a perception of inevitability to the end of Rosas’ tenure.
   2569. Fourth True Outcome Posted: February 09, 2022 at 02:23 PM (#6064477)
There's no Tobias Harris in that deal, let alone a Nerlens Noel! What have you done with the real STIGGLES?
   2570. jmurph Posted: February 09, 2022 at 02:24 PM (#6064478)
I kind of want the Simmons thing to drag on into the off season. It has already gone on so long that everyone is sick of it, so what is a few more months of endless speculation? Other than a wasted year of Embiid.

I think I want it to happen, it would be fascinating to watch, but I'm torn. The Sixers would probably be a lot better, and that's obviously bad for America, but then they'd be paying a broken down Harden like 60 million a year when he's 35, and that's fun. I was pulling for the Nets in the playoffs last year because I (foolishly!) thought the Sixers were a real title threat, but now I want the Nets thing to totally fall apart. They traded a good player and a hundred picks and now have Ben Simmons and an anti-vax crusader who can't play in New York! That's delightful.
   2571. tshipman Posted: February 09, 2022 at 02:24 PM (#6064479)

I am appalled by this thread's lack of respect for the Deal Zone.



Look, if this deal is going to get done, we all know where this deal will take place.

   2572. Moses Taylor loves a good maim Posted: February 09, 2022 at 02:25 PM (#6064480)
Adrian Wojnarowski @wojespn ·17m
The Utah Jazz are acquiring guard Portland’s Nickeil Alexander-Walker and the Spurs’ Juancho Hernangomez in a three-way deal, sources tell ESPN. The Spurs gets guard Tomas Satoransky and a second-round pick, and the Blazers get Joe Ingles, Elijah Hughes and a second-round pick.


Deal zone!
   2573. tshipman Posted: February 09, 2022 at 02:28 PM (#6064481)
The Utah Jazz are acquiring guard Portland’s Nickeil Alexander-Walker and the Spurs’ Juancho Hernangomez


Okay, but why, though?

This is the rare trade that I think all three teams should have said no to.
   2574. asinwreck Posted: February 09, 2022 at 02:29 PM (#6064482)

Steph Noh @StephNoh
_______________ for Tomas Satoransky + a second-round pick has been part of three separate trade packages this season.

The Spurs just need to get Garrett Temple now to collect all the ex-Bulls shipped out for Ball and DeRozan.
   2575. Der-K's tired of these fruits from poisoned trees Posted: February 09, 2022 at 02:37 PM (#6064484)
2573 - i don't hate it for SA. don't know their other options.
   2576. smileyy Posted: February 09, 2022 at 02:38 PM (#6064485)
I'm sad to see Joe Ingles (or Gin Glass, as I think of him) leave the Jazz. He felt iconic...or at least mascot-ic (in a way that I don't mean to be condescending).
   2577. Moses Taylor loves a good maim Posted: February 09, 2022 at 02:38 PM (#6064486)
Okay, but why, though?

DEAL ZONE
   2578. tshipman Posted: February 09, 2022 at 02:44 PM (#6064488)
2573 - i don't hate it for SA. don't know their other options.


You're basically paying whatever the prorated rest of season cost of Satoransky's contract (10mm) for a second rounder. That feels pricey for a second, given that you can pick those up for a couple million at the draft.
   2579. Tom Cervo, backup catcher Posted: February 09, 2022 at 02:50 PM (#6064489)
I really don't get why the Jazz would do this. It saves money this season, but Hernangomez is awful and due nearly $7M next season. NAW is...whatever. Might prefer Hughes to him but that part is fine and neither player are ever going to be anything worth fretting over.
   2580. Der-K's tired of these fruits from poisoned trees Posted: February 09, 2022 at 02:50 PM (#6064490)
gotta use that money somehow
---
2026 2nd from okc to mia for kz okpala
overpay from okc
(hollinger joked that the pick is probably one in name only and that miami might send cash -- both seem likely to me)
   2581. nick swisher hygiene Posted: February 09, 2022 at 02:51 PM (#6064491)
2573–“With this trade, you have made all 3 teams, and indeed NBA basketball, significantly worse”
   2582. aberg Posted: February 09, 2022 at 03:16 PM (#6064495)
due nearly $7M next season


Fairly certain from the Wolves tenure that next year's Juancho salary is non-guaranteed.
   2583. Your favorite TFTIO, me! Posted: February 09, 2022 at 03:16 PM (#6064496)
wat
   2584. Tom Cervo, backup catcher Posted: February 09, 2022 at 03:21 PM (#6064497)
Fairly certain from the Wolves tenure that next year's Juancho salary is non-guaranteed.


oh thank god, you're right. not nearly as bad then.
   2585. tshipman Posted: February 09, 2022 at 03:27 PM (#6064498)
Hahahahahaha ####### Kangz:

Chris Mannix
@SIChrisMannix
In the aftermath of the Haliburton trade, the Kings have informed teams that they are not interested in future-based offers for Barnes--they will only discuss packages that will return players that will help them win.
   2586. Booey Posted: February 09, 2022 at 03:28 PM (#6064499)
Also, Ingles said a few days ago that if he gets traded, he plans to resign with the Jazz next year as a free agent anyway, so it wouldn't surprise me if the team already had that agreement with him in place. They get to replace his missing production this season, and he still will never technically "play" for any other team, even if he sits on another teams bench for the next few months.
   2587. asinwreck Posted: February 09, 2022 at 03:28 PM (#6064500)
What are the odds of Sacramento picking up Russ or Wall in the next few hours?
   2588. My name is Votto, and I love to get Moppo Posted: February 09, 2022 at 03:30 PM (#6064501)
That is a desperate move by the Jazz. They know Ingles is out for the year, and maybe longer, and wanted to bring in a warm body to soak up some minutes.
   2589. tshipman Posted: February 09, 2022 at 03:32 PM (#6064502)
What are the odds of Sacramento picking up Russ or Wall in the next few hours?


Who says no?

   2590. My name is Votto, and I love to get Moppo Posted: February 09, 2022 at 03:36 PM (#6064503)
Meant to finish my thought: the Jazz are a good team, but a clear cut below at least the Suns and Warriors, and probably not as good as Memphis. It doesn't close that gap, that's why it feels desperate.
   2591. Booey Posted: February 09, 2022 at 03:36 PM (#6064504)
#2588 - That's my thought. I get it, but I still can't help feeling disappointed. I was hoping they could do better than that. But again, they're trading a player who won't ever play for his new team, so there's only so much a team will be willing to give up for a pure salary dump.
   2592. tshipman Posted: February 09, 2022 at 03:39 PM (#6064505)
But again, they're trading a player who won't ever play for his new team, so there's only so much a team will be willing to give up for a pure salary dump.


In theory, Jingles was going to be the ballast that made the money work, while the value would be given from draft picks or recently drafted players.
   2593. Tom Cervo, backup catcher Posted: February 09, 2022 at 03:40 PM (#6064507)
I think Ingles is likely to be back on a vet minimum deal next season. Not even sure this is a desperation move for minutes so much as it is to save a billionaire something like $11M from his luxury tax bill.

And if the Jazz are healthy, I don't buy the Grizzlies as the better team at all. Jazz aren't as good as Suns or Warriors, but still have a better net rating than the Grizzlies even with the last month covid and injuries disaster.
   2594. DCA Posted: February 09, 2022 at 03:45 PM (#6064508)
What are the odds of Sacramento picking up Russ or Wall in the next few hours?

Who says they have to choose?
   2595. asinwreck Posted: February 09, 2022 at 04:02 PM (#6064510)
That is gorgeous.
   2596. smileyy Posted: February 09, 2022 at 04:08 PM (#6064512)
The Lakers say yes. I mean, the Lakers say yes to any deal that moves Westbrook, right?
   2597. Dandy Little Glove Man Posted: February 09, 2022 at 04:26 PM (#6064515)
You're basically paying whatever the prorated rest of season cost of Satoransky's contract (10mm) for a second rounder. That feels pricey for a second, given that you can pick those up for a couple million at the draft.

Juancho was on the Spurs, so they're only paying the prorated cost of the salary difference between Satoransky and Juancho. By my calculations, that pick is costing them about $1.3M.
   2598. Fourth True Outcome Posted: February 09, 2022 at 04:43 PM (#6064520)
At the risk of bring up a topic outside of the DEAL ZONE, I am looking forward to the Celtics' upcoming games against Denver and the Sixers because they have been absolutely throttling bad/undermanned teams all calendar year and it's high time to see how they do against a star player/decent team. They now have the 2nd best defense and 4th net rating for the whole season and have been playing great team basketball, so for all that they're beating up on mediocre teams, all of the pieces seem much better than they did for the first stretch of the season and everyone is healthy. (Perhaps my Tatum for MVP prediction will come around to looking defensible by season's end, who knows!) I think the best sign might be that Udoka, who has been fascinatingly blunt and honest in the press all year, is saying complimentary things about how they're playing of late.

Also, Marcus Smart recently commented that a lingering calf injury he's been dealing with since last season has healed. I doubt that affects his shooting, but here is a fun defensive number:
@StoolGreenie
In the 9 games Marcus Smart has played since returning to the lineup on 1/23 he has defended a total of 481 possesions

He has allowed 69 total points. 481 possessions. 69 points.

Celtics are 8-1. My God
   2599. If on a winter's night a traveling violation Posted: February 09, 2022 at 04:59 PM (#6064521)
Same. I'm particularly looking forward to the Hawks rematch, too: their last game was the only game they've dropped in their last 9, the only one where the team looked a bit off by my (perhaps biased) eye test, and the only one against a winning team (records aside, the Hawks have played like a different team for the last couple weeks). Boston's defense and spacing have both been worlds better for the last month and change; I would be shocked if they continue leading the league in net rating like they did in January, and they still are a relatively weak-shooting roster on the whole, but they've closed up a lot of the X-and-O issues that plagued the start of their season.
   2600. If on a winter's night a traveling violation Posted: February 09, 2022 at 05:08 PM (#6064523)
Flip Murray
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