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Friday, May 21, 2021

NBA 2021 Playoffs+ thread

I estimate there are maybe 10-12 Primates left on this site, and they all post in the NBA thread.

Moses Taylor hashes out the rumpus Posted: May 21, 2021 at 01:07 PM | 1217 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
  Tags: clutch, narratives, nba, off topic, redemption

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   1001. smileyy Posted: June 07, 2021 at 09:58 PM (#6023104)
Love the fouls with less than two minutes left in a 41 point game.
   1002. smileyy Posted: June 07, 2021 at 09:59 PM (#6023105)
Somehow Jeff Green is being considered very important to a team.
   1003. smileyy Posted: June 07, 2021 at 09:59 PM (#6023106)
Can you tell that this is my night to watch basketball on TV and this is what I get?
   1004. Shohei Brotani (formerly LA Hombre) Posted: June 07, 2021 at 10:00 PM (#6023108)
Dude, the Angels are playing the Royals!
   1005. spivey 2 Posted: June 07, 2021 at 10:03 PM (#6023110)
I do remember blowing Toronto out in Game 2 to go up 2-0 in the ECF, and it was considered a foregone conclusion you couldn’t beat Milwaukee 4 of 5. Now, that year the comeback was against Bud and this year we have Bud. Got to take away something defensively.
   1006. tshipman Posted: June 07, 2021 at 10:12 PM (#6023112)
Man, I was so wrong about the Bucks.
   1007. PJ Martinez Posted: June 07, 2021 at 10:14 PM (#6023113)
The Nets are now up to 50/44/91 shooting splits *as a team* this postseason
That's wild.
   1008. smileyy Posted: June 07, 2021 at 10:20 PM (#6023116)
MPJ should take a page from Nikola Jokic and not contest that dunk.
   1009. rr: cosmopolitan elite Posted: June 07, 2021 at 10:26 PM (#6023118)
1007: Hollinger/Duncan said prior to the series that Brooklyn may well be the best offensive team ever, even including the '17 Warriors.
   1010. Moses Taylor hashes out the rumpus Posted: June 07, 2021 at 10:35 PM (#6023121)
Here's the list of largest playoff blowouts.

Today is the 23rd anniversary of that Bulls/Jazz Finals game. #### I'm old.
   1011. aberg Posted: June 08, 2021 at 11:20 AM (#6023171)
Seems like most of the chatter was about the early game. Late game was more competitive for the first half, but similar in the second. Denver defense needs to play better than it did to win the series. Paul and Booker are going to create shots, but there were too many shots that were barely contested. I guess it's not a Nuggets series unless it has wild swings in momentum.
   1012. jmurph Posted: June 08, 2021 at 11:27 AM (#6023172)
I let my Athletic subscription lapse, but this is from a Hollinger piece, I guess (this quote is from Real GM, they don't need a click):
League sources around the NBA tell The Athletic they expect Chauncey Billups to eventually become head coach of the Portland Trail Blazers.

Billups is currently an assistant coach with the Los Angeles Clippers.

Jason Kidd was also a rumored candidate but he swiftly took his name out of consideration.

The Blazers are searching for a replacement for Terry Stotts.
   1013. jmurph Posted: June 08, 2021 at 11:58 AM (#6023175)
Good chart in the tweet:
Owen Phillips @owenlhjphillips
Percent of playoffs 3PAs that have been contested (defender within 6 feet)

Durant is making 50 percent of his threes, even though 90 percent of them are contested. Not really sure what the Bucks are supposed to do about that

   1014. "bothsidesism" word 57i66135 Posted: June 08, 2021 at 12:16 PM (#6023178)
Owen Phillips @owenlhjphillips
Percent of playoffs 3PAs that have been contested (defender within 6 feet)

Durant is making 50 percent of his threes, even though 90 percent of them are contested. Not really sure what the Bucks are supposed to do about that
punch him in the nuts.
   1015. asinwreck Posted: June 08, 2021 at 12:36 PM (#6023181)
From Hollinger's piece:
Olshey mentioned presenting 20-25 names to ownership, and here at The Athletic we already know several of them: Chauncey Billups, Chawns E. Billups, Aunceycha Illupsba, John C. Billups, and darkhorse William “Bill” Upscommachauncey.

Yes, league sources think Billups — currently a Clipper assistant — is the likely choice, which may be why Lakers assistant Jason Kidd removed himself from consideration with lightning speed.
   1016. GregD Posted: June 08, 2021 at 01:03 PM (#6023182)
Kidd/Billups: As I said, I had forgotten about the Billups thing, but yes, it will be an issue if Boston wants to hire him. Kidd also has issues other than the DV, although I think it is clear that many players see him very differently than fans/observers do. GregD's post about Lillard/Oakland was helpful info.


It's irrelevant now that Kidd has backed out but the Oakland tie is more than just "here's a city and no surprise point guards grew up there," which is true of a number of places with active pickup scenes. The context I didn't spell out is East Oakland Youth Development Center. Al Payton, Gary's dad, was a long-time and well-known (if not always loved) volunteer coach there. Brian Shaw played there (don't know if he played for "Mr Mean" as people called Gary's dad but he knew them well), and Shaw has been very active in sustaining the center and the Oakland connections. Payton's dad coached Kidd there. Lillard went to the center and was around those guys when they came back; thus his ill-fated effort to go to St Joseph, Kidd's alma mater before transferring to Oakland High. Not sure that Al Payton was still coaching when Damian Lillard was going to the East Oakland center. I think the Kidds lived in a nicer neighborhood but Jason went to East Oakland to play. There are still good players from Oakland, of course, but no idea if that contextual connection will still sustain among younger guys or how the center functions as East Oakland becomes less African American, more Latinx. (The well known Oakland Soldiers AAU team is not nearly so Oakland focused, and LeBron and lots of other outsiders played for them.)

Juan Toscano-Anderson on the Warriors is from East Oakland and is a Youth Development Center kid (and of course is both Latinx and African American). His third grade teacher was the wife of Warriors great Al Attles and she got her husband to let him into Warriors camps for free when she realized Toscano Anderson and his mom were going between homeless and living with grandparents. He led Warriors into one of the Oakland Black Lives Matter marches that JTA helped organize. Marshawn Lynch is a grad and remains very active with it.
   1017. Your favorite TFTIO, me! Posted: June 08, 2021 at 01:14 PM (#6023185)
Great knowledge from GregD, thanks. I love Oakland, but not Kidd.
   1018. "bothsidesism" word 57i66135 Posted: June 08, 2021 at 01:36 PM (#6023188)
sometimes i wake up in the middle of the night and remember that vladimir putin stole robert kraft's super bowl ring.
   1019. Ken Griffey's Grotesquely Swollen Jaw Posted: June 08, 2021 at 01:41 PM (#6023189)
yeah GregD, I didn't know all that, it was great to read.
   1020. Ken Griffey's Grotesquely Swollen Jaw Posted: June 08, 2021 at 01:43 PM (#6023191)
Dean Maniatt @AllTheBucks
"Per NBA stats' Playtype, Giannis Antetokoumpo has only nine (9) possessions as a PnR Rollman so far in the Playoffs, scoring 1.33 PPP (6/6 FG).
He's got 34 Isolation possessions, scoring just 0.88 PPP (12/28 FG)."

If you're wondering how the Bucks only scored 86 points against a crappy defense, that's a great place to start.
   1021. tshipman Posted: June 08, 2021 at 01:58 PM (#6023192)
Dean Maniatt @AllTheBucks
"Per NBA stats' Playtype, Giannis Antetokoumpo has only nine (9) possessions as a PnR Rollman so far in the Playoffs, scoring 1.33 PPP (6/6 FG).
He's got 34 Isolation possessions, scoring just 0.88 PPP (12/28 FG)."


Don't worry, next year Bud will have the adjustment.
   1022. jmurph Posted: June 08, 2021 at 02:02 PM (#6023195)
Don't worry, next year Bud will have the adjustment.

In the regular season, and then... immediately default to his past methods again in the playoffs.
   1023. spivey 2 Posted: June 08, 2021 at 02:05 PM (#6023197)
"Per NBA stats' Playtype, Giannis Antetokoumpo has only nine (9) possessions as a PnR Rollman so far in the Playoffs, scoring 1.33 PPP (6/6 FG).
He's got 34 Isolation possessions, scoring just 0.88 PPP (12/28 FG)."

If you're wondering how the Bucks only scored 86 points against a crappy defense, that's a great place to start.


Personal chores prevented me from watching the last game. But I am struggling to understand the "The Nets are so hard because they switch everything so they make you beat them at their own game" takes, when really this seems like it should mean they should be able to run actions at will getting Giannis rim-running against Kyrie, Shamet, etc., as well as getting Giannis to switch Kyrie onto him when he is going to try iso stuff.

In the second half of the first game, in particular, I failed to see any strategy to actually try to leverage the Nets super-heavy switch strategy into a coherent strategy. Jrue and Middleton aren't great at beating guys off the dribble. But it seems to me they could both be making someone like Kyrie defend way more in the post and try to deal with Giannis drives (both iso and PnR rim runs). Milwaukee doesn't have a great offensive orchestrator - Giannis, Middleton, and Jrue are all probably best being a #2 or #3 set up the offense guy.
   1024. GregD Posted: June 08, 2021 at 02:22 PM (#6023202)
sometimes i wake up in the middle of the night and remember that vladimir putin stole robert kraft's super bowl ring.
Amazing. I know this is true, forget it, and am shocked every time someone brings it up.
   1025. Fourth True Outcome Posted: June 08, 2021 at 02:41 PM (#6023203)
Personal chores prevented me from watching the last game. But I am struggling to understand the "The Nets are so hard because they switch everything so they make you beat them at their own game" takes, when really this seems like it should mean they should be able to run actions at will getting Giannis rim-running against Kyrie, Shamet, etc., as well as getting Giannis to switch Kyrie onto him when he is going to try iso stuff.

A big part of how the Celtics sprung Tatum for 50 was by exploiting Brooklyn switching everything to get the matchups they want; if the Bucks are being stymied by this it sure seems like more ammo for firing Bud yesterday.
   1026. GregD Posted: June 08, 2021 at 02:42 PM (#6023204)
The story of the very specific people who make youth leagues go is amazing, and is something someone should write about--apparently the death of 1-2 old guys killed Mobile's famous Black youth league that produced Aaron, McCovey, Billy Williams, 2/3 of the 69 Mets outfield, etc.

The Omaha cluster (Bob Gibson, Gale Sayers, Johnnie Rodgers, Bob Boozer) was driven by Gibson's embittered older brother who resented losing his chance at professional sports and was intolerable but incredibly effective.

Think the Pasadena cluster of great Black athletes was partly driven by Mack Robinson's somewhat similar (though at a different level of success) anger over not being coached as a kid and not being treated well when he returned.)

Don't know if the great Oakland cluster of the 50s (Bill Russell, Frank Robinson, Vada Pinson, Curt Flood all at same small high school) was driven by same East Oakland center or by a different set of leagues back then.
   1027. Tom Cervo, backup catcher Posted: June 08, 2021 at 03:04 PM (#6023210)
I know Jrue is really good and much better than Bledsoe, but I didn't entirely get the trade back then since he's not a very good shooter or a real PG.

Also, Conley is out for tonight. I don't see much chance for the Jazz if he's not back and close to himself starting in game 2.
   1028. "bothsidesism" word 57i66135 Posted: June 08, 2021 at 05:23 PM (#6023225)
The star of the best team in the WNBA, an impossibly skilled and dominant big with what might be the rarest player profile in basketball, will be leaving her team for several weeks because she, ah, became a citizen of this damn Bosnia and Herzegovina three years ago and will now go play for the Bosnian national team at FIBA’s EuroBasket tournament beginning next week. “I’m proud to represent the Bosnian national team, but it’s a tough time to be going,” said the great Jonquel Jones on Saturday. “I feel like I’m playing really, really great basketball. I feel like I have a good flow right now.” Can the No. 1 Connecticut Sun keep it up without her?
...
Jones became Bosnian citizen to unlock some valuable European league opportunities and also because her native Bahamas lacked a real national team infrastructure

   1029. Moses Taylor hashes out the rumpus Posted: June 08, 2021 at 06:55 PM (#6023240)
On Tuesday, Nikola Jokic became the sixth international player -- and third European -- to win the NBA's Most Valuable Player Award, sources confirmed to ESPN.

The Denver star becomes the first center since Shaquille O'Neal in 2000 to be named the league's MVP. Philadelphia 76ers center Joel Embiid and Golden State Warriors guard Stephen Curry were the other finalists for the award.


Lowest pick ever (41) to become MVP
   1030. bob gee Posted: June 08, 2021 at 07:00 PM (#6023242)
Nick at Bballbreakdown said Giannis was playing like a 90s power forward with the rolls. I think the Bucks would be better if Giannis was handling the ball, others were setting picks, and there were open 3 point shooters when Giannis drives in against a wall.


   1031. Mike A Posted: June 08, 2021 at 07:33 PM (#6023244)
Lowest pick ever (41) to become MVP
Jokic being drafted during a Taco Bell commercial will always be amusing.
   1032. "bothsidesism" word 57i66135 Posted: June 08, 2021 at 07:52 PM (#6023248)
ben simmons is covering trae young on the first possession.

this series is over.
   1033. Mike A Posted: June 08, 2021 at 08:05 PM (#6023252)
Derrick Rose apparently got a first place vote for MVP. That seems a bit questionable.

No Hunter again for the Hawks. Really need him back, having to play Solomon Hill is a killer. Not the best of starts here.

On edit: The Rose vote was apparently from the fans? Not sure why the fans get a vote, but it's all good.
   1034. JJ1986 Posted: June 08, 2021 at 08:12 PM (#6023254)
NBA fans on Twitter really love Derrick Rose, almost as much as they love Mamba.
   1035. "bothsidesism" word 57i66135 Posted: June 08, 2021 at 08:51 PM (#6023258)
this first half is probably going to be what the rest of the series looks like. the sixers' starters are going to pull ahead, the hawks bench is going to claw back. the difference is going to be whether the sixers can avoid turnovers and whether the hawks can make 3s.


and of course we get the obligatory chicken #### playoff double-Ts.
   1036. jmurph Posted: June 08, 2021 at 08:53 PM (#6023259)
I've come around to the idea that Embiid should have been the MVP, regardless of the games played deficit, because he may literally be their only reliable player.

(EDIT: Changed to reliable.)
   1037. jmurph Posted: June 08, 2021 at 08:58 PM (#6023260)
and of course we get the obligatory chicken #### playoff double-Ts.

Agree those are generally terrible but that one felt earned (if Embiid doesn't respond it's maybe nothing, but given the t worthy shove from Embiid they had to go back and give one to Gallo, that wouldn't have been fair otherwise).
   1038. Mike A Posted: June 08, 2021 at 08:58 PM (#6023261)
Red Velvet and The Rooster keeping the Hawks in this one. McMillan saw 5 minutes of Solomon Hill and said 'nope.'
   1039. "bothsidesism" word 57i66135 Posted: June 08, 2021 at 09:07 PM (#6023262)
Agree those are generally terrible but that one felt earned (if Embiid doesn't respond it's maybe nothing, but given the t worthy shove from Embiid they had to go back and give one to Gallo, that wouldn't have been fair otherwise).

embiid was acting like a petulant child; gallinari just happened to be there (..after he flopped to the ground like a ####### dolphin caught in a tuna net).
   1040. smileyy Posted: June 08, 2021 at 09:17 PM (#6023264)
Petulant shoves aside, Embiid is so smooth.
   1041. smileyy Posted: June 08, 2021 at 09:37 PM (#6023265)
Though maybe he ought to back off on the 19' fadeaway jumpers
   1042. "bothsidesism" word 57i66135 Posted: June 08, 2021 at 09:52 PM (#6023270)
ATL has avoided running their offense through trae young when he's guarded by simmons. i wonder if that will change in these last 10 minutes.


also, matisse thybulle is the wrong defender to put on trae young. you can't defend young from the trail position, and that's what thybulle does. given that danny green isn't capable of staying in front of trae young either, those minutes need to start going to george hill.
   1043. "bothsidesism" word 57i66135 Posted: June 08, 2021 at 09:56 PM (#6023272)
also, who's this ####### hockey guy that TNT found to do PBP?

"i think the crowd is saying 'let's go process'"
   1044. "bothsidesism" word 57i66135 Posted: June 08, 2021 at 10:09 PM (#6023279)
for the love of ####### god ben simmons, make a few of these ####### FTs.

0/2. ####.
   1045. "bothsidesism" word 57i66135 Posted: June 08, 2021 at 10:17 PM (#6023287)
loudest cheer of the night: free slushies in the last minute because of two missed FTs.
   1046. Moses Taylor hashes out the rumpus Posted: June 08, 2021 at 10:49 PM (#6023297)
This jazz/clippers game is like a first round eastern conf game.

From 1999.
   1047. "bothsidesism" word 57i66135 Posted: June 09, 2021 at 12:05 AM (#6023312)
John Hollinger @johnhollinger
Clips are 12-26 from 3, 11-12 from line, while Jazz missed 20 straight shots ... and they're down 1.

   1048. tshipman Posted: June 09, 2021 at 12:40 AM (#6023316)
The Clippers are such a weird team.
   1049. Rally Posted: June 09, 2021 at 10:26 AM (#6023339)
The story of the very specific people who make youth leagues go is amazing, and is something someone should write about--apparently the death of 1-2 old guys killed Mobile's famous Black youth league that produced Aaron, McCovey, Billy Williams, 2/3 of the 69 Mets outfield, etc.


It makes me think about how many baseball players are from the Dominican Republic. That country has about the same population as Georgia or North Carolina. Weather helps a lot, but a lot of it comes down to focus. People in the DR put a lot of effort into turning kids into ballplayers. Up here, we let them get distracted by a zillion other things.

In 2021, there are 44 MLB players born in Georgia. 20 from NC. And 113 from the DR.
   1050. "bothsidesism" word 57i66135 Posted: June 09, 2021 at 10:51 AM (#6023345)
Zach Klein @ZachKleinWSB
Hawks center Clint Capela told me he and Joel Embiid talk trash to one another in French
Derek Bodner @DerekBodnerNBA
RE: Simmons: The Sixers shot 55.4% as a team, and averaged 126.8 pts/100 possessions, with Simmons on the floor last night, as Simmons locked down one of the most locked-in offensive players in the playoffs.

   1051. jmurph Posted: June 09, 2021 at 11:43 AM (#6023359)
All but +2 of Simmons's +/- overlap precisely with Embiid being on the court last night. But yes, the guy who scored 4 points was the reason they averaged 126.8 per 100.
   1052. jmurph Posted: June 09, 2021 at 11:43 AM (#6023360)
The absolute only upside for a Sixers hater of Embiid's monster season is the rest of us didn't have to listen to hype about Simmons's offensive game anymore.
   1053. Der-K's emotional investment is way up Posted: June 09, 2021 at 12:02 PM (#6023363)
You've seen it all and all you have seen
You can always review on your own little screen
The light and the dark, the big and the small
Just keep in mind - you need no more at all
You've seen what you were and know what you'll be
You've seen it all - there is no more to see!


Indiana's HC is out.

---

Atlanta was a -29 during the bits I got to watch yesterday.
   1054. jmurph Posted: June 09, 2021 at 12:03 PM (#6023364)
Atlanta was a -29 during the bits I got to watch yesterday.

They did a great job on Young for the most part, I thought, and obviously the Sixers got some big bench points in the 4th. I thought there was a lot to feel good about for Atlanta, though. Still probably a 4-1 or 4-2 series for the Sixers though, I imagine?
   1055. JJ1986 Posted: June 09, 2021 at 12:21 PM (#6023372)
The reports were pretty one-sided, but it sounds like people in the game knew that Nate B was an ####### who'd have trouble with a locker room.
   1056. Moses Taylor hashes out the rumpus Posted: June 09, 2021 at 12:24 PM (#6023374)
Atlanta was a -29 during the bits I got to watch yesterday.

How's that compare to your personal +/- from the first round and regular season?
   1057. jmurph Posted: June 09, 2021 at 12:31 PM (#6023378)
What are the family and social gatherings like after you get fired very publicly for being an ###hole?
   1058. Moses Taylor hashes out the rumpus Posted: June 09, 2021 at 12:59 PM (#6023388)
For the #######? Same as it always was I guess.
   1059. Moses Taylor hashes out the rumpus Posted: June 09, 2021 at 01:02 PM (#6023389)
Ha
   1060. "bothsidesism" word 57i66135 Posted: June 09, 2021 at 01:12 PM (#6023394)
For the #######? Same as it always was I guess.
can confirm.
The absolute only upside for a Sixers hater of Embiid's monster season is the rest of us didn't have to listen to hype about Simmons's offensive game anymore.
if you want me to post more, you just have to ask.
They did a great job on Young for the most part, I thought, and obviously the Sixers got some big bench points in the 4th. I thought there was a lot to feel good about for Atlanta, though. Still probably a 4-1 or 4-2 series for the Sixers though, I imagine?
ATL's gameplan is a lot more versatile than the sixers', so they have the ability to dictate gameplans and matchups, whereas the sixers will only be able to react to those changes once the game starts. i don't think that's a strength of the sixers' organization, so ATL has some chances there. ATL can also win by shooting the lights out, whereas the sixers very likely can't.
   1061. Fourth True Outcome Posted: June 09, 2021 at 01:23 PM (#6023397)
[1059] is amazing. What a character Jokic is.
   1062. jmurph Posted: June 09, 2021 at 01:28 PM (#6023398)
ATL's gameplan is a lot more versatile than the sixers', so they have the ability to dictate gameplans and matchups, whereas the sixers will only be able to react to those changes once the game starts. i don't think that's a strength of the sixers' organization, so ATL has some chances there. ATL can also win by shooting the lights out, whereas the sixers very likely can't.

This is fair. The shooting point especially, yeah, you could see them stealing another 1 or 2 I guess in the right circumstances. But honestly the only chance I see for Atlanta to win the series is for Embiid to become more hobbled or go down entirely. I feel like they're doing a pretty good job with him on both ends of the court and he's still killing them.
   1063. tshipman Posted: June 09, 2021 at 02:08 PM (#6023402)
What are the odds that Indiana hires Terry Stotts or Steve Clifford? like 90%?
   1064. jmurph Posted: June 09, 2021 at 02:29 PM (#6023408)
Saw lots of Stotts links already. D'Antoni was connected to that one last year- maybe they go in for him again, or maybe that bridge is burned.
   1065. rr: cosmopolitan elite Posted: June 09, 2021 at 02:51 PM (#6023413)
D'Antoni is 70, and it is hard to imagine a better fit for him than being an assistant in Brooklyn on Nash's staff with a shot at a ring or two. So it is kind of hard for me to picture him wanting a job like Indiana or Portland at this stage of his life, but ofc I don't know.

Milwaukee/Brooklyn: I don't take predictions seriously, but when I make NBA playoff predictions, for fun, I look at two things first: star power, and where the teams are in ORTG and DRTG. Milwaukee/Brooklyn, Phoenix/Denver, and Utah/LAC all have contradictions is those areas, which I think reflects the relative parity at the top of the league. I will be interested to see if Milwaukee can get back in that series. My gut says that they will, but the margin in G2 surprised me. I think with Brooklyn, even leaving Harden aside, when Harris is hitting and Griffin is playing well, they are essentially unguardable no matter who you have and what schemes you use. I get the Budenholzer trashing, but Irving and Durant are both very hard to guard. Also, I have never been totally sold on Middleton, as I have said a zillion times, and while Holiday is a good player, I said in preseason that I was not sure that he was the last piece in Milwaukee. If Budenholzer gets fired, that job will be a good window into tactical coaching impact in certain situations.
   1066. rr: cosmopolitan elite Posted: June 09, 2021 at 02:58 PM (#6023417)
It's only Bleacher Report, but topical and seems reasonable:

Bleacher Report
@BleacherReport
·
12m
Kemba Walker and Celtics are likely to end their relationship this offseason, per B/R’s
@Farbod_E


Danny Ainge tried to trade Kemba last year for Jrue Holiday
   1067. jmurph Posted: June 09, 2021 at 03:04 PM (#6023419)
WHAT A FUN OFFSEASON I'M REALLY ENJOYING IT SO FAR.

Ugh. I loved Kemba before he got to Boston, love getting to cheer for him, I hope he's on the team next year. It's a bummer that he's been injured off and on, but no regrets.
   1068. rr: cosmopolitan elite Posted: June 09, 2021 at 03:11 PM (#6023422)
1067

Like I said, it's BR so it may be bullshitt. It seems kind of logical that Walker might prefer a diff org right now though.
   1069. jmurph Posted: June 09, 2021 at 03:15 PM (#6023426)
Yeah it's believable.
   1070. Your favorite TFTIO, me! Posted: June 09, 2021 at 03:20 PM (#6023428)
WHAT A FUN OFFSEASON I'M REALLY ENJOYING IT SO FAR.

You could be a Wolves fan, man.
   1071. asinwreck Posted: June 09, 2021 at 03:28 PM (#6023431)
What kind of trade would be possible for Kemba Walker and Kemba Walker's contract?
   1072. jmurph Posted: June 09, 2021 at 03:31 PM (#6023432)
What kind of trade would be possible for Kemba Walker and Kemba Walker's contract?

A bad trade! For a less likable player! Like, I heard people kicking around Porzingis trades on various podcasts, and there's some logic there, I get it. But I don't want to watch or cheer for Porzingis!

No thanks.
   1073. rr: cosmopolitan elite Posted: June 09, 2021 at 03:33 PM (#6023434)
I am in the "no contract is untradeable" camp, pretty much. But yes, Walker's is a little rough. He is 31, and is still owed 36M next year and has a 37.6M player option for 2022/23.
   1074. jmurph Posted: June 09, 2021 at 03:38 PM (#6023436)
If he was 100% healthy it would still, admittedly, not be ideal given where he is in his career. But given the lingering leg issues, yeah, they'd be throwing in picks and taking back someone else's problem, almost certainly.
   1075. asinwreck Posted: June 09, 2021 at 03:42 PM (#6023437)
I agree he can be traded. John Wall got traded just a few months ago. Walker's skill set is valuable, but the combination of age and health shape what kind of return Boston could get for him.

Is there a sign-and-trade candidate in this free agent market that could send Walker the other way? I wouldn't mind Walker (or any functional point guard) on the Bulls, but don't see the Bulls trading any combination of contracts that would work. (Unless Boston is insane enough to give Lauri Markkanen a max offer.)
   1076. Fourth True Outcome Posted: June 09, 2021 at 04:05 PM (#6023439)
My Kemba hope, should he get traded, would be the Knicks wanting to use some of their gobs of cap space on bringing him home to NY and getting Randle another scorer. I'm with jmurph that I really don't want to root for Porzingis.

I also had the realization this morning that this is almost certainly going to be Chris Paul's last, best shot at a ring; as much as we all know that Count the Ringz is dumb, I think Paul getting a title would really cement his repuation as the point god in a deserving way. (Obviously the Suns have a lot of work to do yet, but I somehow hadn't really bothered to consider the ramifications of the Suns winning until today.)
   1077. Joyful Calculus Instructor Posted: June 09, 2021 at 04:06 PM (#6023440)
D'Antoni is 70, and it is hard to imagine a better fit for him than being an assistant in Brooklyn on Nash's staff with a shot at a ring or two. So it is kind of hard for me to picture him wanting a job like Indiana or Portland at this stage of his life, but ofc I don't know.


D'Antoni got a 7th seed and first round sweep with a team that included Kobe Bryant, Dwight Howard, Pao Gasol and Steve Nash. The team actually had a weird quality where they played well when Howard xor Gasol was in the lineup but poorly when Gasol and Howard were in the lineup. Phil Jackson and even Mike Brown could get production out of Bynum and Gasol at the same time, but D'Antoni was a total failure in managing big men.
   1078. tshipman Posted: June 09, 2021 at 04:32 PM (#6023445)
You basically have the same problem with Kemba that you have with CJ McCollum.

It's hard to make a deal for a similar player because there are a paucity of challenge trades out there.
Kemba is even harder than McCollum because Kemba is probably worth less than his salary on the open market.
The history of the NBA is that declining veterans are either salary dumped with assets attached, or used as matching salary to bring in a bigger star.

Edit: and I think the Mavs are the team that says no to a Kemba/Porzingis swap.
   1079. Fourth True Outcome Posted: June 09, 2021 at 04:40 PM (#6023446)
I think the Mavs definitely say no to that swap, but I think the Celtics also do because Porzingis has an extra year on his deal and any chance of the Cs having cap space in 2023 would evaporate with the acquisition.
   1080. jmurph Posted: June 09, 2021 at 04:44 PM (#6023448)
Oh there would have to be other things attached with Kemba for Porzingis. But hey if the Mavs say no that's great for my anti-Porzingis stance.

re: D'Antoni: hiring him in Portland would definitely be fun for Lillard reasons, but I think they might need a defensive-minded coach?
   1081. "bothsidesism" word 57i66135 Posted: June 09, 2021 at 05:21 PM (#6023457)
trade machine: who says no?

BOS: al horford
POR: kristaps porzingis
DAL: cj mccollum
OKC: kemba walker
   1082. asinwreck Posted: June 09, 2021 at 05:34 PM (#6023461)
I mean, sending an over-30 point guard on a huge contract to Oklahoma City ensures the universe remains in balance. Al Horford returning to Boston would make it even better.
   1083. Fourth True Outcome Posted: June 09, 2021 at 06:08 PM (#6023467)
It's still kind of wild to me that we've reached a place where STIGGLES is suggesting four team trades of ~30m salaries and doesn't feel any need to shoehorn in the Sixers jettisoning Tobias Harris.
   1084. "bothsidesism" word 57i66135 Posted: June 09, 2021 at 07:45 PM (#6023479)
It's still kind of wild to me that we've reached a place where STIGGLES is suggesting four team trades of ~30m salaries and doesn't feel any need to shoehorn in the Sixers jettisoning Tobias Harris.
i'm no less shocked than you are.

granted, i'd still trade harris straight up for 3 of those 4 players.
   1085. tshipman Posted: June 09, 2021 at 09:50 PM (#6023501)
trade machine: who says no?

BOS: al horford
POR: kristaps porzingis
DAL: cj mccollum
OKC: kemba walker


OKC needs a pick in the deal. Not because they deserve it, but because Presti has an addiction.
   1086. asinwreck Posted: June 09, 2021 at 10:54 PM (#6023507)
I think Chris Paul's going to get to play in the Finals this year.
   1087. rr: cosmopolitan elite Posted: June 09, 2021 at 11:31 PM (#6023512)
Paul has 24 AST and 1 TO so far in this series.
   1088. Your favorite TFTIO, me! Posted: June 10, 2021 at 07:38 AM (#6023536)
Guys, I think this Chris Paul character might be good at basketball?
   1089. asinwreck Posted: June 10, 2021 at 09:12 AM (#6023544)
Credit to James Jones and Robert Sarver for recognizing Paul's court vision and experience would fit this young roster so well. If Paul stays in Phoenix next year and is healthy, the 2022 pick they traded to Oklahoma City shouldn't be higher than 25th.
   1090. Rally Posted: June 10, 2021 at 09:23 AM (#6023546)
D'Antoni got a 7th seed and first round sweep with a team that included Kobe Bryant, Dwight Howard, Pao Gasol and Steve Nash. The team actually had a weird quality where they played well when Howard xor Gasol was in the lineup but poorly when Gasol and Howard were in the lineup. Phil Jackson and even Mike Brown could get production out of Bynum and Gasol at the same time, but D'Antoni was a total failure in managing big men.


When the playoffs started, they didn’t have Kobe, and they merely had a shadow of what Steve Nash once was. At the time I was not happy with D’Antoni, but looking back its hard to blame him for what happened. The NBA was changing. Five years earlier you could play two excellent bigs without 3 point range together. Today, I don’t think anyone would expect Gasol/Howard to work well together for extended minutes, even with their 2013 bodies.
   1091. spivey 2 Posted: June 10, 2021 at 10:42 AM (#6023560)
When the playoffs started, they didn’t have Kobe, and they merely had a shadow of what Steve Nash once was. At the time I was not happy with D’Antoni, but looking back its hard to blame him for what happened. The NBA was changing. Five years earlier you could play two excellent bigs without 3 point range together. Today, I don’t think anyone would expect Gasol/Howard to work well together for extended minutes, even with their 2013 bodies.


Howard also was in the process of going from an all-NBA player to just a good player. Gasol had also fallen from being an all-NBA level player to just a solid player. In hindsight it seems like the time was just up on most/all of those guys on being key parts of a championship team. Maybe another coach could have squeezed one last run out of it. But I'm a bit skeptical, given the previous couple of years when they ran into contenders they mostly got beaten soundly (Mavs, OKC, and Spurs all did this).
   1092. Rally Posted: June 10, 2021 at 10:57 AM (#6023567)
The 2013 Lakers were a longshot gamble, hoping that Howard + 3 great but old players could remain great just a bit longer and work well together for a championship run. They lost the gamble on both counts.
   1093. rr: cosmopolitan elite Posted: June 10, 2021 at 01:12 PM (#6023587)
2011-13 Lakers: This topic is oddly tangentially relevant to today since Stern's veto of the Paul deal was right in the middle of it, and it was one of the things that triggered the Nash deal. And now, here Paul is, ten years later, on a big run after his team beat the Lakers--and he could end up playing a team coached by Nash in the NBA Finals. A few points in case anybody actually cares:
1. As much crap as Jim Buss and Mitch Kupchak took, much of it warranted, the Paul deal, had it gone through, would have been a brilliant move. That was known at the time, but not, ofc, fully. Their worst moves--Deng and Mozgov--(the Lakers are still paying Deng) are of course what people remember, but the veto really screwed the Buss/Kupchak FO. I distinctly recall some (not that many) Lakers fans thinking at the time that the team was better off after the veto; they simply did not get how good Paul was and is. Many people (not here) still don't.
2. This thread was ofc active in 2013, and I remember backing the D'Antoni hire here but saying that D'Antoni would "need to adapt" since the personnel did not fit what he liked to do. He never really did adapt; they hired him because of his personal connections to Nash and Bryant and because everybody seemed to think that Mike Brown was a doofus. But MDA was not the main problem. Howard and Gasol could neither play together nor get along personally; D'Antoni made it worse by saying snarky shitt about Pau in public and trying to make him shoot 3s. Nash's body was gone, and Buss and Kupchak did an awful job with the back end of the roster, leading to Bryant's literally playing entire games down the stretch and then infamously blowing out his Achilles.
3. Grouping the '11, '12 and '13 teams together based on their playoff losses is inaccurate. Nobody remembers this now, but there was wide consensus that the 2011 Lakers would be going for a threepeat against The Heatles. They had picked up Steve Blake and Matt Barnes and although the ride was a little bumpy, they went 57-25 with a 58-24 PYTH in a very tough conference and were favored in the semis against Dallas. They then ran into the Nowitzki-lead variance buzzsaw that eventually cut up every Dallas opponent, even The Heatles, and the series ended with the ugly flagrant by Bynum (Richard Jefferson and John Hollinger, two media guys who sometimes like snarking the Lakers, both talked a little trash on Twitter about this ten-year-old series just last week as Phoenix put the Lakers out) in G4.

The '12 team of course was dealing with the veto, and Buss/Kupchak simply gave away Lamar Odom, since he seemed to fall apart emotionally after it happened and was having major issues even before that. Gasol, Bynum and Bryant all put up PERs over 20 and the team won one playoff series, beating Denver in 7. They did lose to OKC in 5, but it was pretty competitive. The roster was weak 4-9. The '13 team, without a recognizable Nash and without Bryant, with nothing on the bench, and with Howard already thinking free agency, had no chance against SA.

People on the Lakers boards have ofc been focused on James, Davis (Davis ofc was drafted by NO in the wake of the veto and then won a title--with the Lakers.) and trying to get better role players, and the veto is (as it should be)in the rearview. But it is still having reverberations of sorts even now.
   1094. Steve Parris, Je t'aime Posted: June 10, 2021 at 01:25 PM (#6023590)
he could end up playing a team coached by Nash in the NBA Finals.

He could also end up playing Dwight Howard in the finals!
   1095. Joyful Calculus Instructor Posted: June 10, 2021 at 01:29 PM (#6023591)
Yes, Nash was old, but he was still productive up until that year. Howard began his decline that year. Kobe blew out his Achilles (in part because he got overplayed due to lack of production elsewhere). Yes, the league was shifting towards more 3 point shooting, but they were able to get production from Bynum and Gasol at the same time the previous year. It's pretty damning that they had a worse record when Gasol or Howard were injured than they did when both were healthy. When one player's production falls off in a season, that player got old, but when all the players on the same team crater in the same season, maybe there's something else wrong going on. The sad thing is that Phil Jackson, arguably the greatest coach in Laker history, was willing to return, but Jim Buss didn't want him because of reasons unrelated to basketball (I know he never said it was personal, but Jackson was dating Jeannie Buss at the time; it's not hard to put two and two together).
   1096. Moses Taylor hashes out the rumpus Posted: June 10, 2021 at 01:42 PM (#6023594)
Pau...trying to make him shoot 3s

I think had Pau come along later he would have been a good to decent 3pt shooting big, or could have developed into one. Either way, I almost think he'd be even better in today's game - as a 5 - than he was when he played.
   1097. Shohei Brotani (formerly LA Hombre) Posted: June 10, 2021 at 05:39 PM (#6023635)
The 2013 Lakers started the season at 17-25, then went 28-12 the rest of the way. They probably weren't serious contenders, but they were a dangerous out before Kobe's went down, probably because he was averaging over 38 minutes a game during that 40 game stretch.
   1098. asinwreck Posted: June 10, 2021 at 08:03 PM (#6023657)
OK, this may be a series after all.
   1099. Fourth True Outcome Posted: June 10, 2021 at 08:13 PM (#6023659)
If the Nets used up all of their buckets in the first two games that's going to be an issue for them.
   1100. asinwreck Posted: June 10, 2021 at 08:27 PM (#6023663)
The unsinkable Bruce Brown has led a second quarter comeback.
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