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Friday, May 21, 2021

NBA 2021 Playoffs+ thread

I estimate there are maybe 10-12 Primates left on this site, and they all post in the NBA thread.

Moses Taylor hashes out the rumpus Posted: May 21, 2021 at 01:07 PM | 4930 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
  Tags: clutch, narratives, nba, off topic, redemption

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   2801. Willard Baseball Posted: July 22, 2021 at 10:40 PM (#6030099)
Ayton has to be worth a lottery pick. JJJ is (theoretically) Memphis 2nd best player, worth a lottery pick. PJ Washington is a building block. Sabonis was definitely worth a lottery pick.

I would much rather have an initiator or a wing, but somebody has to play post, and there are some good ones listed above, in addition to Bam and Zion.
   2802. tshipman Posted: July 23, 2021 at 01:00 AM (#6030104)
Ayton has to be worth a lottery pick.


Would you give Richaun Holmes a max? Because there's not that much difference between Ayton and Holmes, and I don't think Holmes even makes the MLE next year.

JJJ is worse than Brandon Clarke, and PJ Washington scores 12 points per game with mediocre defense. I guess Sabonis is ok.
   2803. PJ Martinez Posted: July 23, 2021 at 09:10 AM (#6030117)
Holmes is going to turn 28 in October. Ayton turns 23 today. It's certainly possible that Ayton doesn't improve in the next five years, but we would call that likely? (Not a rhetorical question.)
   2804. Willard Baseball Posted: July 23, 2021 at 10:20 AM (#6030130)
So you think if we swapped out Ayton and Richaun Holmes this year, Phoenix still makes the finals? I don't see anyway that happens.

Ayton had 19 and 22 in a 4 point win in WCF. Had 24 and 14 in another 1 point win. Had 22 and 19 in game one of finals.

Richaun Holmes has never scored a point in a playoff game. Ever.
   2805. Willard Baseball Posted: July 23, 2021 at 10:27 AM (#6030132)
Also, Branden Clarke is 3 years older than Jackson and a much worse shooter. Memphis chance at contention relies on JJJ becoming a dude. May not happen, but that is their guy that can raise his level of play on the current roster.

PJ Washington is not a great player yet. But he is 22 years old and had good numbers and is part of a young nucleus.

You have to play somebody in the frontcourt. I would say most teams would feel comfortable giving Washington major minutes as a 22 year old.

Sabonis was a top 30 player this year. That is significantly better than ok.
   2806. spivey 2 Posted: July 23, 2021 at 10:40 AM (#6030134)
You need bigs in the NBA. But you don't need a ton of them, and some of the most important skills - switchability, rim protection/team defense, ability to shoot well enough to space the floor, or otherwise get unassisted buckets are skills that many don't have or don't develop into plusses until their 3rd or 4th year in the league. At that point you're paying much closer to fair market value.

Like, I think Mobley should be a lottery pick. But I think it's because he's purportedly showing some of these skills.
   2807. aberg Posted: July 23, 2021 at 11:32 AM (#6030145)
Would you give Richaun Holmes a max?


Do you think of lottery pick /=/ max player? I've never thought of it that way. If a player's peak is about 5 years (probably a conservative estimate) and there are 14 lottery picks per year, that's 70 lottery picks in their prime at any given time. Cap situations vary, but I don't think there have ever been more than ~30-40 max players at a time. Seems like max player is a higher bar than lottery pick.

If you said there are only a small handful of bigs who are worth a top 5 pick, I am with you there.
   2808. aberg Posted: July 23, 2021 at 11:40 AM (#6030148)
You have to play somebody in the frontcourt.


I think the valid counterpoint would be that you can get pretty far without spending a top pick on a big man. Giannis was the 15th pick, Jokic a second rounder. Of other teams who were good this year, Capela was 25, Portis 22, Lopez 10 (and a decade ago, signed in Milwaukee very cheap), Tucker was an afterthought, Gobert 27, Ibaka 24, Marcus Morris 14, Zubac 32, Collins 19. There are plenty of other examples.

The larger point seems to be that a big man prospect as to be an f'ing A prospect to be worth a top ~5 pick, otherwise the opportunity cost of using that pick isn't worth the risk and you'd be better off filling those minutes with a cheap vet or a developmental guy taken later in the draft. That's similar to the orthodoxy for NFL teams drafting RBs, but for different reasons.
   2809. Willard Baseball Posted: July 23, 2021 at 11:45 AM (#6030149)
I 100% agree that teams spend too many picks on frontcourt players. But to say that you would never take a frontcourt player, and that people like Sabonis are a waste, is just a bridge too far.
   2810. Slivers of Maranville descends into chaos (SdeB) Posted: July 23, 2021 at 11:46 AM (#6030151)
If a player's peak is about 5 years (probably a conservative estimate) and there are 14 lottery picks per year, that's 70 lottery picks in their prime at any given time.


But about half of lottery picks are busts, no?
   2811. aberg Posted: July 23, 2021 at 11:49 AM (#6030153)
But about half of lottery picks are busts, no?


And they wouldn't be considered "worth" a lottery pick. Some lotto picks are worth it, some later picks prove to be worth more. Figuring out if there are patterns seems to be the point of this discussion.
   2812. tshipman Posted: July 23, 2021 at 12:06 PM (#6030155)
The larger point seems to be that a big man prospect as to be an f'ing A prospect to be worth a top ~5 pick, otherwise the opportunity cost of using that pick isn't worth the risk and you'd be better off filling those minutes with a cheap vet or a developmental guy taken later in the draft. That's similar to the orthodoxy for NFL teams drafting RBs, but for different reasons.


Right, you have to be Zion to be worth it (and maybe not even Zion?).

Do you think of lottery pick /=/ max player? I've never thought of it that way. If a player's peak is about 5 years (probably a conservative estimate) and there are 14 lottery picks per year, that's 70 lottery picks in their prime at any given time. Cap situations vary, but I don't think there have ever been more than ~30-40 max players at a time. Seems like max player is a higher bar than lottery pick.


I was just asking the question as a rhetorical device, really. I do think it's a useful frame. If you're not willing to even think about maxing a guy out who's available for just money, you probably shouldn't spend a lottery pick on that guy. Because Richaun Holmes isn't getting a max or even really getting close in the slightest. And while Ayton has surplus skills, all his value comes from doing the Richaun Holmes stuff. And that's just not that valuable.
   2813. Russlan thinks deGrom is da bomb Posted: July 23, 2021 at 12:29 PM (#6030162)

Right, you have to be Zion to be worth it (and maybe not even Zion?).


Are there really 5 guys in the 2029 draft that you'd rather have than Zion even in hindsight?
   2814. Slivers of Maranville descends into chaos (SdeB) Posted: July 23, 2021 at 12:44 PM (#6030165)

And they wouldn't be considered "worth" a lottery pick. Some lotto picks are worth it, some later picks prove to be worth more. Figuring out if there are patterns seems to be the point of this discussion.


Right, but that means there aren't 70 lottery picks in their prime any given year. Maybe there are 30-35.
   2815. spivey 2 Posted: July 23, 2021 at 12:50 PM (#6030169)
Zion's points/attempts/efficiency in the restricted area is just absolutely gross. He's the only person in the NBA that can challenge Giannis at that. He was already great (offensively), with an awful team constructed around him. I think he'd score 30+ a game in a system like Milwaukee's.
   2816. tshipman Posted: July 23, 2021 at 01:37 PM (#6030176)
Are there really 5 guys in the 2029 draft that you'd rather have than Zion even in hindsight?


No, not right now. I think it's possible that Zion is such an extreme team building challenge that in 10 years or whatever, we'll view him as more Blake Griffin than LeBron. If you were redrafting the 2009 NBA draft, you would definitely take Steph and Harden over Blake. That wasn't obvious in 2012.

Zion's points/attempts/efficiency in the restricted area is just absolutely gross. He's the only person in the NBA that can challenge Giannis at that. He was already great (offensively), with an awful team constructed around him. I think he'd score 30+ a game in a system like Milwaukee's.


Offense isn't the issue with Zion.
   2817. Harlond Posted: July 23, 2021 at 02:32 PM (#6030190)
Here's what we have so far. JJ1986, I just put you on Charlotte, but you're free to switch. Dandy Little Glove Man, tshipman, and . . . . ., please pick a team. I was tempted to assign Philadelphia to Stiggles--would that have been wrong?

1. Detroit (Crosseyed)
2. Houston
3. Cleveland
4. Toronto
5. Orlando (Athletic Supporter)
6. Oklahoma City (harlond)
7. Golden State (DCA)
8. Orlando (Athletic Supporter)
9. Sacramento
10. New Orleans
11. Charlotte (JJ1986)
12. San Antonio
13. Indiana
14. Golden State (DCA)
15. Washington
16. Oklahoma City (harlond)
17. Memphis (Willard)
18. Oklahoma City (harlond)
19. New York
20. Atlanta (Der-K)
21. New York
22. LA Lakers
23. Houston
24. Houston
25. LA Clippers
26. Denver (aberg)
27. Brooklyn
28. Philadelphia
29. Phoenix
30. Utah

31. Milwaukee (Ken Griffey)
32. New York
33. Orlando (Athletic Supporter)
34. Oklahoma City (harlond)
35. New Orleans
36. Oklahoma City (harlond)
37. Detroit (Crosseyed)
38. Chicago (asinwreck)
39. Sacramento
40. New Orleans
41. San Antonio
42. Detroit (Crosseyed)
43. New Orleans
44. Brooklyn
45. Boston
46. Toronto
47. Toronto
48. Atlanta (Der-K)
49. Brooklyn
50. Philadelphia
51. Memphis (Willard)
52. Detroit (Crosseyed)
53. New Orleans
54. Indiana
55. Oklahoma City (harlond)
56. Charlotte (JJ1986)
57. Charlotte (JJ1986)
58. New York
59. Brooklyn
60. Indiana

Portland (mike f) - no picks
Minnesota (Mellow Mouse) - no picks
   2818. Dandy Little Glove Man Posted: July 23, 2021 at 03:56 PM (#6030201)
I'll take New Orleans.
   2819. tshipman Posted: July 23, 2021 at 04:46 PM (#6030204)
I guess I'll take Sacramento, since there aren't any fans on the board.
   2820. spivey 2 Posted: July 23, 2021 at 04:48 PM (#6030205)
Offense isn't the issue with Zion.


If you put him with a BroLo or a Giannis, a Jrue Holiday, and a good defensive wing - I think he'd be fine. Guys improve there, too - I can maybe dream on him having the size and first step to guard big wings, or maybe be able to play impactful weakside centerfield. I think it's a fair question of if him and Ingram work well as the 3 and the 4.

I just think a guy who can get you 30 a game at high efficiency at the age of 20 is incredibly valuable. I expected him to be better defensively, but I still think he should go #1 in a redraft, and I'd take him over Trae Young too.
   2821. tshipman Posted: July 23, 2021 at 05:02 PM (#6030206)
I think we are agreeing about Zion. He's the clear #1 from that draft.

I think that there's a chance that the injuries or the defense becomes hard enough to build around that he ends up being less valuable to a championship team than Ja Morant or Terance Mann or whoever else from his draft.

I think there's more risk to Zion vs. someone like Doncic because Zion is such a unique player.
   2822. . . . . . . Posted: July 23, 2021 at 05:11 PM (#6030207)
If NJ isn’t around I’ll take the Knicks, but I’d much rather have him do it.
   2823. tshipman Posted: July 23, 2021 at 05:56 PM (#6030208)
What are people doing with the stats from the G-League guys, Kuminga and Green?

Is it more impressive than College? Equivalent to the Euroleague?
   2824. jmurph Posted: July 23, 2021 at 06:28 PM (#6030210)
What are people doing with the stats from the G-League guys, Kuminga and Green?

Is it more impressive than College? Equivalent to the Euroleague?

Hollinger has Green at 5, I think? Lower than the general consensus. He didn't seem impressed by his G League numbers.

(I have no take on this, just relaying the info. It's not rare for Hollinger to have idiosyncratic takes on draft prospects.)
   2825. DCA Posted: July 23, 2021 at 07:15 PM (#6030215)
I think we are agreeing about Zion. He's the clear #1 from that draft.

I'm not sure. I mean, I had Zion #1, but it was a two-man draft and the top two were in the same tier. It was (and is) quite likely that they both hit and Morant's better.
   2826. Der-K's emotional investment is way up Posted: July 23, 2021 at 07:43 PM (#6030219)
g league is tougher than college. mind you, i'm higher on the g league than hollinger is, i think
--
my issue with green is that i don't know about him ever doing much defensively
   2827. tshipman Posted: July 23, 2021 at 08:03 PM (#6030220)
If Green were in Euroleague, I would think his numbers were extremely impressive. If he were in college, I would have questions about athleticism, due to the low-ish steals/blocks/rebounds.

B-Ball Paul was one of the best players in the G-League at 21. Most of his per-minute numbers held up in the NBA, but his efficiency declined and his fouls went up. He was a late second round guy.

I'm not sure how impressive I should find being about average in the G-League at 18. Is it like really impressive, or could a bunch of guys have done the same thing? If I think it's significantly harder than college, then I think you could make a case for Green at #1 overall.
   2828. Crosseyed and Painless Posted: July 23, 2021 at 08:40 PM (#6030226)
I can pick for the Pistons to get this going, but I know the next couple teams haven't been assigned yet. Pistons will take Cade.
   2829. aberg Posted: July 23, 2021 at 11:00 PM (#6030238)
Just theoretically, what would you think of these offers for the #1 pick?
Towns
Porter Jr + 26 pick
Ben Simmons
Trae young
LaMelo + pj Washington (or miles bridges)
Siakam + 4 pick
Fox + bagley + 9

   2830. Crosseyed and Painless Posted: July 24, 2021 at 08:32 AM (#6030245)
I'd turn down all those offers for #1. I'd have to think about Trae (but would say no), and I can't believe I'm saying that because I don't think I'd want to try building a team around someone that small. LaMelo's an interesting one, too, but I'd say no.

The Pistons' fans whose draft takes I follow are absolutely bananas for Cade, and honestly they were since February so it's not just from winning the lottery. I'm probably not that bananas but I'd have a hard time trading him.
   2831. Your favorite TFTIO, me! Posted: July 24, 2021 at 08:42 AM (#6030246)
I mean it has to be a question in context, right? In a vacuum is a different question than “this Pistons team right now”. For the Pistons, I’d think about Trae, but nothing else.
   2832. Willard Baseball Posted: July 24, 2021 at 09:25 AM (#6030249)
If I was the current Pistons, I would trade #1 for LaMelo+ for sure. Is Cunningham that much better of a prospect than LaMelo at this point? I wouldn't do any of the other trades with the current Pistons, but in a vacuum, I would trade #1 for Towns, and would also do Siakim + #4 for sure. Might also do any of the others (except Fox/Bagley) in the right context.

LaMelo had a great season and is still 19 years old. Cunningham is going to be great, but averaged more turnovers than assists in college, and shot 46% on 2's.

LaMelo is also one month older.
   2833. Crosseyed and Painless Posted: July 24, 2021 at 10:10 AM (#6030253)
LaMelo had a great season and is still 19 years old. Cunningham is going to be great, but averaged more turnovers than assists in college, and shot 46% on 2's.


Cade's backers (not just Pistons' homers, but guys that seem serious about this stuff like Sam Vecenie) seem to blame all the turnovers and all the bad 2's on his OK-ST teammates. That feels like motivated reasoning to me (Cade is not the first player to have less-than-stellar college teammates) but I keep hearing it from lots of people.

They've given me enough pause that I'm not gaga over him the way some of these others are, but I'd still have a hard time giving him up for any of the above. But maybe you're right on LaMelo. That'd be one heck of a challenge trade.
   2834. Your favorite TFTIO, me! Posted: July 24, 2021 at 10:28 AM (#6030254)
LaMelo is also one month older.

This is a good point, that I hadn’t realized. But he’s also a year closer to getting paid, so you have to weigh that against the +, right?
   2835. Willard Baseball Posted: July 24, 2021 at 11:18 AM (#6030255)
If you are sure that both are max players, then sure. But if LaMelo gets paid because he is a top 20 guy, and Cade is a top 50 guy, you still want LaMelo.

So is LaMelo going to be a top 20 guy? I think it is better than 50/50 that he is.

LaMelo
Ja
Sexton
Trae
Fox

How would you rank these guys?
   2836. 57i66135 is available to babysit, for a price Posted: July 24, 2021 at 01:46 PM (#6030259)
LaMelo
Ja
Sexton
Trae
Fox

How would you rank these guys?

collin sexton is closer to jordan crawford than he is to anyone else on that list.
   2837. Willard Baseball Posted: July 24, 2021 at 01:57 PM (#6030260)
I would agree. I only included him because his PER was higher this year than LaMelo and Ja. I think he has to be last by a considerable margin.
   2838. tshipman Posted: July 24, 2021 at 02:08 PM (#6030261)
Those are kind of a disparate group that is hard to rank. I guess I'd go:

Tier 1:
Trae--the only guy who has a proven ability to drive elite offense. Defense may limit him from ever having championship impact.

Tier 2:
Ja Morant--defense is lowkey just as bad as Trae, offense not quite as good.
LaMelo Ball--ahead of other guys at the same age.

Tier 3:
Fox--terrible defense, not as good offense.
Sexton--I think he has upside actually. He's not really a point, though.
   2839. jmurph Posted: July 24, 2021 at 02:12 PM (#6030262)
Ja Morant--defense is lowkey just as bad as Trae, offense not quite as good.

Yeah I think I'm lower on Ja than a lot of people are, and this is part of it. He's not nearly the shooter that other similar guys are while being just as bad defensively, and I don't see why he should be expected to turn into one? Improve, sure, he's very young, but I feel like this player type requires you to be a fairly elite shooter.
   2840. tshipman Posted: July 24, 2021 at 02:19 PM (#6030263)
Yeah I think I'm lower on Ja than a lot of people are, and this is part of it. He's not nearly the shooter that other similar guys are while being just as bad defensively, and I don't see why he should be expected to turn into one? Improve, sure, he's very young, but I feel like this player type requires you to be a fairly elite shooter.


Well, the best predictor of defense is effort, but the second best is height. Ja is 6-3, and very thin right now, so you can see how if he put on weight and really cared, he could be a good/neutral defender. Trae probably cannot ever be a good defender.
   2841. Hombre Brotani Posted: July 24, 2021 at 02:31 PM (#6030267)
As I do every year, I'll take the Lakers unless someone else wants to give them a shot. As I do every year, I'll confer with RR via emails, then ignore his sage advice and pick badly.
   2842. rr: cosmopolitan elite Posted: July 24, 2021 at 05:10 PM (#6030277)
2841--

That is actually the opposite of what occurred; one year, Brotani approached me for advice, and the advice I gave him turned out to be comically bad. Understandably, he has kept me mostly out of the loop since. However, this year, with the draft being later in the summer, I will actually have time to do a little on-line info seeking about guys in play at 22, and may offer my input (which he should still ignore).

A wonky/stats-y Lakers blogger guy is pushing Kuzma + 22 to Utah for Joe Ingles if no "big fish" deal is available. Given how well Clarkson has done in Utah, and that Kuzma played at the U of Utah, the Jazz might be interested, I would think. Lakers fans are mixed on Kuzma, but I think most Lakers fans would be opposed to this deal, especially given that Ingles will be 34 in October and given that he looks like a quirky supporting actor in an Aussie sitcom about guys who hang out at a bar. I would be amused to see Booey's reaction to Ingles getting traded to the Lakers. Although Booey does not post anymore, I think he might pop up if that happened. I don't think that either team would make that deal in real life ultimately.
   2843. Der-K's emotional investment is way up Posted: July 24, 2021 at 07:05 PM (#6030281)
Some think ingles might be on his way out to help with payroll as it is.
-
I think you could make a case for Green being #1 (I have Cade there). Green v Suggs is interesting. The idea that Green is more like a Zach Lavine type and Suggs is more like a Brandon Roy type feels right and I strongly prefer the latter as a type of player. But! those are the archetypes versus the quality of these two dudes and I do think Green has a higher ceiling.
   2844. jmurph Posted: July 25, 2021 at 10:00 AM (#6030311)
Not great, US men!

Honestly I think they've largely played well, just missed a ton of great looks and Durant got into early foul trouble. I don't love the closing lineup Pop went with. I know Bam is the better offensive player but I think Draymond should probably be closing. LaVine over the many other options doesn't make much sense to me, either.
   2845. Mike A Posted: July 25, 2021 at 10:48 AM (#6030313)
That USA performance was as ugly as that 1908 medicine ball they're using as a basketball.

I know I've harped too often about the roster construction, but a lot of the flaws were evident today. There was nobody to run the ship and France took advantage over USA's lack of size. The lack of perimeter defense on Fournier et al didn't help, either. Over-passing, not driving to the hoop, yadda yadda yadda...

Wake-up call #3, I guess. As noted, they did miss a lot of open looks, so hopefully better days are coming.
   2846. tshipman Posted: July 25, 2021 at 12:13 PM (#6030316)
We let Evan Fournier beat us. Everyone on Team USA should be embarrassed.
   2847. jmurph Posted: July 25, 2021 at 12:18 PM (#6030317)
Over-passing, not driving to the hoop, yadda yadda yadda...

Totally agree here. Interestingly, I think a number of us expressed concern about too many ISO guys coming in, but I honestly felt like they needed to run more ISOs in this game. Several guys looked a little too tentative, hesitant to do their thing, and just cook one on one to open things up a bit. Lot of sort of casual passes around the perimeter that didn't lead to a lot of good looks.
   2848. Hombre Brotani Posted: July 25, 2021 at 01:30 PM (#6030324)
@TheAthletic

The Lakers and Kings have discussed a deal centered around guard Buddy Hield, sources tell @ShamsCharania

Kyle Kuzma, whom several teams have expressed interest in, would be involved in the potential package: https://bit.ly/3i2YVXk
I don't much like Hield, but the Lakers need shooting. I could live with this.
   2849. 57i66135 is available to babysit, for a price Posted: July 25, 2021 at 03:02 PM (#6030327)
i'll say this about don't google: he's probably better than carlos arroyo.
   2850. AuntBea odeurs de parfum de distance sociale Posted: July 25, 2021 at 03:31 PM (#6030329)
Probably not the right thread for this, but we've all been impressed by tall male basketball players. Muresan played at over 7 foot 7, which would make him one of the 100 tallest people ever recorded in the history of the world.

Zhang Ziyu is 14 years old, and is already (well, she may not grow anymore...) the 8th tallest woman ever recorded., and is the tallest woman alive in the world right now. Unlike a lot of other extremely tall people, she also doesn't seem the least bit spindly. Haven't seen her jump yet... her game's a little reminiscent of Chief from One flew over the cuckoo's nest, but maybe she can still learn.
   2851. rr: cosmopolitan elite Posted: July 25, 2021 at 03:51 PM (#6030334)
Hield: I am not a big fan either, and his 3P numbers have dropped off a bit the last couple of years. But he is a legit ~.40 guy from the arc, and he is 28 years old, so he makes a lot of sense. I think win-now teams sometimes focus too much on old role players. Hield as a guy with exp. in his peak physical years makes sense (this was one thing I liked about the Lakers getting Schroder and Harrell). Walton was still coach when the Lakers took Kuzma, so there is a connection on that level that might make SAC want Kuzma.

USA Basketball: I am not that into Olympic ball, so I have not watched. I realize that the world is and has been catching up, but I have to say that I am surprised that a team of NBA guys with the level of talent they have, flaws and all, could lose three in a row. I think I will try to watch the next game to see what is going on.
   2852. rr: cosmopolitan elite Posted: July 25, 2021 at 06:32 PM (#6030341)
   2853. AuntBea odeurs de parfum de distance sociale Posted: July 25, 2021 at 06:45 PM (#6030342)
Heh. That's half foreground and angle magic, but yes, she is incredible even without that.
   2854. rr: cosmopolitan elite Posted: July 25, 2021 at 06:49 PM (#6030343)
Yes, I saw a version from a different angle that made her look less like a superhero, but I like the look of the one from Hollinger's feed.
   2855. rr: cosmopolitan elite Posted: July 25, 2021 at 10:08 PM (#6030357)
NBA ZONE
@NBAZONES
·
8h
The Los Angeles Lakers are trying Pull off a trade were they can get both Russell Westbrook and Buddy Hield, per
@ShamsCharania
and
@JakeLFischer


Dennis Schroder,THT,Montrezl Harrell and Kyle Kuzma will all have to be involved.
   2856. Your favorite TFTIO, me! Posted: July 25, 2021 at 10:23 PM (#6030358)
... Russell Westbrook?
   2857. Your favorite TFTIO, me! Posted: July 25, 2021 at 10:24 PM (#6030359)
Sign and trade Schroder to WAS? Holy wow, that would be a hell of a thing.
   2858. PJ Martinez Posted: July 25, 2021 at 10:42 PM (#6030361)
That Twitter account (@NBAZONES) looks... less than reliable.
   2859. Your favorite TFTIO, me! Posted: July 25, 2021 at 10:48 PM (#6030364)
Sure, it's nonsense. But it's attractive nonsense.
   2860. rr: cosmopolitan elite Posted: July 25, 2021 at 11:00 PM (#6030367)
Charania ofc is legit, and he is among many reporting the Hield rumors. Fischer has 17K followers and wrote a book on tanking called "Built to Lose" that was just published by a smallish publisher that publishes sports stuff. He also just appeared on a Lakers podcast.

The Westbrook "rumor" was discussed on a legit Lakers pod just yesterday; the theme was how Westbrook is a bad fit. There is nothing I have seen that legitimately suggests that Pelinka is actually trying to get Westbrook, but I can see it how it got into the information stream.

So that is why I posted it. NBAZones is as noted nothing; it has 1151 followers and just re-tweets stuff.

Speaking of the Wizards, there are rumors that Beal is considering requesting a trade. No idea if that is legit. Maybe he wants to be traded from Team USA to a medal contender.
   2861. tshipman Posted: July 25, 2021 at 11:27 PM (#6030370)
You can *kinda* see how Westbrook/LeBron/AD trio would make sense. You'd basically be using Westbrook almost like a center on offense similar to Houston, where he would be screening for LeBron, then catch the ball on the short roll and make a fast decision.

Now, they almost certainly would not play that way, and instead it would just be time wasted where LeBron didn't have the ball in his hands, but it's not impossible to make Westbrook/LeBron/AD work.
   2862. PJ Martinez Posted: July 26, 2021 at 12:23 AM (#6030375)
Seems like the Lakers genuinely have some interest in Hield and possibly Westbrook, but that Twitter account mashed those separate (as far as I can tell) rumors into something totally fanciful, unless I've missed something.

If LeBron and Davis are healthy (and LeBron is still LeBron), the rest is almost noise, but as a Celtics fan I feel pretty OK with the idea of Westbrook being the Lakers' big offseason acquisition (apart from the fact that I like Westbrook and enjoy rooting for him).
   2863. Moeball Posted: July 26, 2021 at 02:45 AM (#6030379)
Team USA led by 7 with only a little over 3 minutes left in the game. Then got outscored 16-2 down the stretch. That's embarrassing. Yes the shooters went cold, but they also stopped playing defense. Just an awful finish.
   2864. JJ1986 Posted: July 26, 2021 at 10:05 AM (#6030405)
I'm actually in Charlotte this week so I am good taking the Hornets. LaMelo is not available, but I'll listen to offers for PJ Washington. Terry Rozier is also on the block and we are willing to absorb bad contracts attached to picks.
   2865. Dandy Little Glove Man Posted: July 26, 2021 at 10:46 AM (#6030410)
Any takers for Houston, Cleveland, and Toronto in the mock draft? There are at least a handful of other teams still available, but those are the most pressing if we want to get this going.

On behalf of New Orleans, everyone other than Zion is available. Definitely interested in a Lillard trade if Portland (mike f) is open to it.
   2866. Mellow Mouse, Benevolent Space Tyrant Posted: July 26, 2021 at 10:48 AM (#6030412)
If I am needed to take an actual team with actual draft picks I can. My taking the Wolves was mostly snark.

No promises as to the quality of the pick(s) though.
   2867. DCA Posted: July 26, 2021 at 12:21 PM (#6030428)
DLGM -

GSW would be interested in some combo of Bledsoe, Ingram, Adams from NOP. You'd have to take Wiggins in any offer, who isn't really a bad contract anymore (he doesn't suck anymore getting out of Minny, and the contract is one year shorter).

Two ideas:

Wiggins + pick 14 for Bledsoe + Adams. This doesn't make sense for either of us as roster construction, but would be a prelude to you moving Ingram for Lillard/Simmons or something like that, and me to packaging Wiseman + pick 7 for a starting-caliber wing.

Wiggins + 7 + 14 for Ingram.

If/when I move all picks, I can take another team for mock draft purposes.
   2868. Dandy Little Glove Man Posted: July 26, 2021 at 12:25 PM (#6030431)
JJ, how about a Stevens Adams trade? He's as good as any free agent Center, and you wouldn't have to sell him on coming to Charlotte or sign him to a massive offer sheet to pry him away. I'd move him just for the cap space / trade exception, given the questionable fit with Zion.
   2869. DCA Posted: July 26, 2021 at 12:29 PM (#6030436)
JJ1986 -

GSW would offer Wiggins + pick 7 for Hayward.

Or Wiggins + Wiseman + 7 for Hayward + Bridges + Washington.
   2870. tshipman Posted: July 26, 2021 at 12:31 PM (#6030438)
That's a fascinating challenge trade. Ingram is kind of a terrible fit in New Orleans, and it's really unclear exactly how good he is.

Is Ingram a star who needs a better system to be an effective defender?
Is Ingram an empty calorie scorer who will struggle to ever be a positive player?
   2871. jmurph Posted: July 26, 2021 at 01:02 PM (#6030446)
Wiggins + 7 + 14 for Ingram.

I think if this happened in real life I would not like it for Golden State. Although, hilariously, that would actually save them 2+ million in salary for 21-22 (not counting the cap holds for the picks).
   2872. Der-K's emotional investment is way up Posted: July 26, 2021 at 01:16 PM (#6030452)
NO should consider that Wiggins deal.
--
I'll be glad to take on any and all teams that are homeless, if need be. That said, are there enough people on board this year to do a draft?
   2873. Willard Baseball Posted: July 26, 2021 at 01:25 PM (#6030456)
I have watched well over half of Ingram's NBA games, and while he did show promise, I think he is now in camp 2. He holds the ball just a touch too long. He doesn't really create for others. He is tall, but has to guard shorter players, but they also can't be too quick. I don't think you can win with him as your #2.

If I am New Orleans I shop everyone but Zion, and try to bring Lonzo back. See if someone will give up anything at all for Jaxson Hayes, he is tall and athletic, but can't play basketball. Josh Hart is a good player, but may get 10 million, and I wouldn't pay that.

ESPN Insider claims Richaun Holmes is going to get big money.
   2874. JJ1986 Posted: July 26, 2021 at 01:34 PM (#6030458)
If I'm taking Steven Adams, I want some kind of a pick attached to him. He's pretty overpaid.

I am intrigued by the GSW deal including Wiseman, but no way I'm including Bridges. Any interest in McDaniels or the better Martin?
   2875. jmurph Posted: July 26, 2021 at 02:09 PM (#6030463)
I'm willing to take a team to get the draft moving. Feel like we need to get it mostly done by thursday night, ideally?
   2876. tshipman Posted: July 26, 2021 at 02:10 PM (#6030464)
I have watched well over half of Ingram's NBA games, and while he did show promise, I think he is now in camp 2. He holds the ball just a touch too long. He doesn't really create for others. He is tall, but has to guard shorter players, but they also can't be too quick. I don't think you can win with him as your #2.


I go back and forth on Ingram.

All the limitations on defense are real. What the hell position can he guard? He's a bad rebounder for a 4 (like, really really bad). He's too slow to guard 2s, and he dies on screens. He's not strong enough to guard the LeBron/Kawhi/Luka tier of guys.

On offense, I disagree a bit. With him on the court, and Zion off, the Pels were at 113 ORTG, which is above league average (112 ORTG) with a pretty poor list of offensive players (his top lineup with Zion out was Bledsoe/Lonzo/Hart/Steven Adams). It wasn't driven by crazy unsustainable shooting either, just 36% from 3.
When both BI and Zion were on the court, the Pels were elite offensively--119 ORTG. So he does work as a #2 on offense. But on defense it's really bad.

If you were confident that you knew who he could guard, and that you could get him to work as a cog in the machine on defense, I think he could be really good? But more like Middleton than Durant. Really unclear if he can get to that level though.

Edit: Middleton/Durant comp is as upside comp only, sorry if that wasn't clear.
   2877. Your favorite TFTIO, me! Posted: July 26, 2021 at 02:31 PM (#6030467)
I could take Toronto, if nobody else will.
   2878. Crosseyed and Painless Posted: July 26, 2021 at 02:32 PM (#6030469)
I'm willing to take a team to get the draft moving. Feel like we need to get it mostly done by thursday night, ideally?


Is someone in charge? Does someone want to be? Could do a last call for teams and then if no one picks a team within next few hours just assign them to a publicly-available Big Board for mock draft purposes to fill in the blanks as we go along?

I'd volunteer but I don't know who to apply for the position with.
   2879. Dandy Little Glove Man Posted: July 26, 2021 at 02:37 PM (#6030470)
Harlond, what do you want for SGA? I've heard the rumors that OKC is hesitant to give him a max extension and build around him, rather preferring to double down on The Process. How about Kira Lewis, Jaxson Hayes, and #10 for SGA and #34? We could also loop in DCA for a 3-team deal if needed.
   2880. DCA Posted: July 26, 2021 at 02:49 PM (#6030476)
JJ -

I'm mildy interested in McDaniels as a 12th-man type. Doesn't really move the needle, comparable players should be freely available for the vet minimum. But I would do Wiggins + Wiseman for Hayward + Washington, no picks involved.
   2881. tshipman Posted: July 26, 2021 at 02:50 PM (#6030477)
Harlond, what do you want for SGA? I've heard the rumors that OKC is hesitant to give him a max extension and build around him, rather preferring to double down on The Process. How about Kira Lewis, Jaxson Hayes, and #10 for SGA and #34? We could also loop in DCA for a 3-team deal if needed.


That is not a serious offer.

***

Also the Kings are available for business.

We have:
Exciting young players like Tyrese Halliburton and DeAaron Fox!
Established veteran contributors like Buddy Hield, Delon Wright, Cory Joseph and Harrison Barnes!
Marvin Bagley
Weird projects like Robert Woodard and Jahmi'us Ramsay
Inexplicable things, like the cap rights to Corey Brewer and Hassan Whiteside.
   2882. DCA Posted: July 26, 2021 at 02:57 PM (#6030479)
You traded Cory Joseph to get Delon Wright.

I continue to really like Wright as a third guard for GSW, but the only way that I can afford him is to offer Looney + a minimum salary guy. That's probably not interesting to you, but if it is ...
   2883. Oriole Tragic Posted: July 26, 2021 at 03:01 PM (#6030480)
Is there any reason why HOU should draft Mobley #2 instead of Green or Suggs?

I'm thinking about how Jokic has trouble with some big guys like Ayton and even WCJr, but IDK if Woods is in that group.
   2884. tshipman Posted: July 26, 2021 at 03:02 PM (#6030481)
You traded Cory Joseph to get Delon Wright.


So can I not trade him again?

Help, I am roleplaying the Kings, and I am not good at this front office thing.

I continue to really like Wright as a third guard for GSW, but the only way that I can afford him is to offer Looney + a minimum salary guy. That's probably not interesting to you, but if it is ...


I don't value Looney at all, so he's just ballast. If you're willing to include Paschall + a second, we can make that work.
   2885. DCA Posted: July 26, 2021 at 03:15 PM (#6030482)
Yes, Looney is definitely ballast.

I don't have a 2021 second, but I would do Looney + Paschall + 2022 second.

or Looney + Paschall + 7 for Wright + 9.
   2886. Der-K's emotional investment is way up Posted: July 26, 2021 at 03:18 PM (#6030483)
real SAC has supposedly declared Tyrese off limits, as I understand it. that's moot, of course.
--
atlanta is looking to shave a teeny bit of money from its payroll and bring in a new backup point guard, likely via trade and not FA.
gallo is on the trading block. so is reddish (irl he'll supposedly cost a first round pick).
atlanta is interested in delon wright and offers kris dunn (after he opts in) and bruno fernando. (this would actually add $ to atl but the deal does work under the cap.) i like dunn, actually, and think the salary is reasonable, but am willing to go with a lesser defender but better standstill shooter in delon.
   2887. tshipman Posted: July 26, 2021 at 03:21 PM (#6030484)
real SAC has supposedly declared Tyrese off limits, as I understand it. that's moot, of course.


Real SAC is kind of run by morons, though.

atlanta is interested in delon wright and offers kris dunn (after he opts in) and bruno fernando.


Nope. You have to beat the draft capital that GSW is offering or put Okongwu in the deal. I don't really value the rest of your non-contributors.
   2888. Der-K's emotional investment is way up Posted: July 26, 2021 at 03:28 PM (#6030485)
the capital of moving up 2 spots?
   2889. tshipman Posted: July 26, 2021 at 03:31 PM (#6030487)
The 2022 second. You need to offer either two seconds, or Okongwu + a second.
   2890. mike f Posted: July 26, 2021 at 03:37 PM (#6030490)
Everyone on Portland is available. I'm not a fan of Ingram. Unfortunately, I don't really have time to make any offers right now.
   2891. Oriole Tragic Posted: July 26, 2021 at 03:43 PM (#6030493)
Is there any reason why HOU should draft Mobley #2 instead of Green or Suggs?

I'm thinking about how Jokic has trouble with some big guys like Ayton and even WCJr, but IDK if Woods is in that group.
   2892. jmurph Posted: July 26, 2021 at 03:45 PM (#6030494)
Is there any reason why HOU should draft Mobley #2 instead of Green or Suggs?

I'm thinking about how Jokic has trouble with some big guys like Ayton and even WCJr, but IDK if Woods is in that group.

I think Wood is interesting but I'm not sure he's good enough to worry about fit if they think Mobley has the better future.
   2893. Der-K's emotional investment is way up Posted: July 26, 2021 at 03:49 PM (#6030495)
didn't see looney + paschall + a second - gotcha.
i might offer a deal involving sending a 2nd rounder, but not yet.

i definitely value okongwu more than you do, tship. (fyi - he's also out for 6 months.)

portland: how highly do you value little or simons? i might make an offer here, but little in particular i see as a reclamation project versus a currently useful guy - a rebuilding team ought to make you a better one.

houston: if they've mobley as the best guy, they should draft him regardless of fit. beyond that, i'd be comfortable playing he and wood together, where mobley (in time) defends the better option. both can theoretically be three level scorers who, in theory, have some defensive skills around the basket and on the perimeter. plus, wood's achilles heel on offense is passing - mobley helps here. (that said - i like bigger lineups than most people.)
   2894. tshipman Posted: July 26, 2021 at 03:54 PM (#6030496)
I don't have a 2021 second, but I would do Looney + Paschall + 2022 second.


Sounds like this is the best offer. Let's write it up.

***

Mobley is one of the guys I was thinking of with the whole "Don't draft bigs in the lottery."
   2895. . . . . . . Posted: July 26, 2021 at 04:03 PM (#6030498)
The Knicks are open for business for trades that enhance their chance of winning 52 games in either (not necessary both!) of the next two seasons before being dispatched in 5 games in either the conference semis or finals by the Bucks or Sixers. All reasonable offers considered.
   2896. Der-K's emotional investment is way up Posted: July 26, 2021 at 04:04 PM (#6030499)
i would draft mobley in the lottery - i don't know about @2, though.

wright = looney (ballast + vet leadership), paschall (cheap bench scorer), and a second makes sense to me for both clubs. i really like delon wright (who i think i traded for in one of these a few years back), he's useful in lots of ways and would have fit what i want to do quite nicely ... except that i'm gonna hit a budget crunch and i can't justify, say, jettisoning huerter (who has overlapping skills) for him.
   2897. tshipman Posted: July 26, 2021 at 04:08 PM (#6030500)
The Knicks are open for business for trades that enhance their chance of winning 52 games in either (not necessary both!) of the next two seasons before being dispatched in 5 games in either the conference semis or finals by the Bucks or Sixers. All reasonable offers considered.


DeAaron Fox for two of the following:

RJ Barett
Immanuel Quickley
#19 this year
   2898. Der-K's emotional investment is way up Posted: July 26, 2021 at 04:14 PM (#6030502)
i don't understand treating those 3 things as equivalent in value!
--
knicks if you want to move barrett, let me know. or quickley, i guess, though he's cheap and solid so... not sure how that would work.
also, you and portland should maybe get together on a deal where you get nurkic and they get robinson on a s/t.
   2899. . . . . . . Posted: July 26, 2021 at 04:19 PM (#6030503)
DeAaron Fox for two of the following:

RJ Barett
Immanuel Quickley
#19 this year


I would absolutely do #19 + Barrett for Fox (who I think would fit in well with the Knicks, and I keep the other picks to try to find or trade for a shooter), but I don't think the $$$ works post-extension for Fox.
   2900. . . . . . . Posted: July 26, 2021 at 04:22 PM (#6030504)
I should add, Barrett is on the market. We are in win (45 games) now mode.
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