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Friday, May 21, 2021

NBA 2021 Playoffs+ thread

I estimate there are maybe 10-12 Primates left on this site, and they all post in the NBA thread.

Moses Taylor hashes out the rumpus Posted: May 21, 2021 at 01:07 PM | 4930 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
  Tags: clutch, narratives, nba, off topic, redemption

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   3001. jmurph Posted: July 27, 2021 at 09:44 AM (#6030679)
jmurph, what are you looking for?

If I'm moving back from 3 I'd want extra pick(s) obviously, and wouldn't want to move past 8-10.
   3002. . . . . . . Posted: July 27, 2021 at 10:45 AM (#6030690)
If someone takes over the Jazz, the Knicks would be interested in talking to you about Joe Ingles.
   3003. Dandy Little Glove Man Posted: July 27, 2021 at 11:36 AM (#6030698)
NOP gets #2, #23, #24, Gordon
HOU gets Ingram, #35, Lakers 2022 FRP (top 4 protected)

Alright. I'll take NOP offer of Adams, Bledsoe, and picks [#2, #10, + NOP 1sts in 2023, 2025, 2027]

Great. Here's a writeup for New Orleans:

Last year's starting lineup of Bledsoe/Lonzo/Ingram/Zion/Adams was an awkward fit on both ends. Despite considerable talent, it outscored opponents by just 2 points per 100 possessions. Ingram has become an excellent mid-range scorer, but alternating Ingram ISOs and Zion post-ups resulted in Bledsoe and Adams lacking purpose and being far less effective than at any other recent point in their careers.

Zion's staggering interior scoring efficiency was even more remarkable considering the team's poor spacing, with New Orleans finishing toward the bottom of the league in both 3-point volume and 3P%. On defense, the overall lack of mobility and effort, especially in the frontcourt, produced a ton of open 3s for opponents. The Pelicans ranked 22nd defensively and were substantially worse with the starters on the floor.

So my plan for the offseason was to build a much more cohesive roster around Zion, starting with a more complementary 2nd star than Ingram. Lillard fits that description as a court-bending perimeter scorer second only to Steph in the attention he demands 30 feet from the rim. You could probably say that Lillard and Zion are 2 of the top handful of players in the league by gravity, with Lillard drawing defenders away from the hoop and Zion making them collapse in on it. Last year the Blazers ranked 3rd in 3-point attempt rate and the Pelicans 3rd-from-the-bottom. After replacing Ingram, Adams, and Bledsoe with Lillard, Covington, and Gordon, New Orleans should vault up toward the top in that regard, making Zion even more unstoppable.

These trades also allow New Orleans to operate as an over-the-cap team, rather than trying to upgrade in free agency and potentially needing to renounce Lonzo or Josh Hart to create cap space. Barring a max or near-max offer for Ball, the Pelicans should be able to retain both of them while staying under the luxury tax. Dealing future picks while keeping the recent draftees and adding a couple late firsts makes for a cheap bench apart from Gordon -- Kira, NAW, Jaxson Hayes, and a mix of veteran minimum guys and 2021 draft picks.

A starting lineup of Lillard, Lonzo, Hart, Covington, and Zion looks to be outstanding offensively and decent defensively. That's a big step up from last year. Zion's too quick and agile for opposing bigs and too strong for opposing forwards, and it'll be far more dangerous to double him when he's surrounded by shooters. I tend to believe that a middle-out defensive scheme can be surprisingly effective, with smart and active wings/forwards cutting off penetration and closing out on shooters. Whether this group can execute it is an open question, though I think it stands a better chance at covering for Lillard on that end than any of the recent Portland teams.
   3004. aberg Posted: July 27, 2021 at 11:42 AM (#6030701)
I have Denver at 26 and here are my rough plans.

After paying our first round pick, we'll have about $24m under the tax threshold, but would consider going over that. I definitely want to bring back Barton, but not sure what that's going to cost. Would prefer to do it on a shorter-term deal. Maybe something like 2/40? I'd like to bring back Millsap and McGee for depth, but won't overpay either of them and probably need to keep it to one-year deals before the tax figure really goes wild. I do think it's worth paying the tax to keep Murray/Barton/Porter/Gordon/Jokic together for the next couple of years.

With that said, I'm probably in the market for a cheap bench guard who can take Austin Rivers' place in the rotation. I'd prefer someone who can defend. Nnaji and Cancar are available and I'd consider trading Bol for a better option. I'll probably make the pick at 26 because I need the cheap depth.
   3005. Der-K's emotional investment is way up Posted: July 27, 2021 at 11:58 AM (#6030703)
Pelton has his draft rankings out (mix of stats and composite rankings) - things look kind of like how you might expect if you look at these every year. Model love, love, loves Sengun (#1 overall by a lot). Cunningham and Green are in a near dead heat for #2, with Mobley #4.
First round likes more than consensus include Giddey, Garuba, Moody
Less than consensus: Suggs (only a teeny bit - he's 6th, also behind Giddey), Barnes, Kissert
Lot less than consensus: Bouknight, Mitchell
Second round likes: Wieskamp (I like him too, fwiw), Champaigne

Sengun had the third best stats-only projection in KP's database (behind Doncic and Anthony Davis, but Pelton also noted brilliant stats-only projections from the likes of DeJuan Blair and Kenneth Faried, which I think is instructive.)
--------

Simons: It's moot unless and until I see a bigger deal to make - I don't have wing playtime to give out yet.
   3006. Willard Baseball Posted: July 27, 2021 at 12:03 PM (#6030704)
Dandy, you have improved that team by quite a bit. I like that roster. I would be very concerned about the defensive rebounding of that group, and the overall ability to guard size, but that should be a very strong offensive group.

In real life, I really hope Lonzo leaves New Orleans.
   3007. Der-K's emotional investment is way up Posted: July 27, 2021 at 12:13 PM (#6030707)
yes, but at significant cost in terms of future firsts.
i'm agnostic on these moves for now.
   3008. DCA Posted: July 27, 2021 at 12:16 PM (#6030708)
I get what fake NOP is going for. Lillard is probably the best possible add for them to compete in the short term, and Ball/Zion is a young pairing that gives them a longer-term core to fill in around once Lillard declines from his current peak.

However, I don't think that I would have done it. The price for Lillard was significant, and the Lillard/Ball pairing is suboptimal (Ball's marginal value is reduced by having to play off Lillard). I think that I'd rather have traded a smaller package for McCollum and retained more assets to improve the rest of the roster for 2021-22 and/or strengthen/supplement the mid 2020's Ball/Zion team.
   3009. tshipman Posted: July 27, 2021 at 12:17 PM (#6030709)
Lotta confirmation on the #6 + Shai for #1 overall. Still wild to me that it got turned down.
   3010. tshipman Posted: July 27, 2021 at 12:18 PM (#6030711)
A starting lineup of Lillard, Lonzo, Hart, Covington, and Zion looks to be outstanding offensively and decent defensively. That's a big step up from last year. Zion's too quick and agile for opposing bigs and too strong for opposing forwards, and it'll be far more dangerous to double him when he's surrounded by shooters. I tend to believe that a middle-out defensive scheme can be surprisingly effective, with smart and active wings/forwards cutting off penetration and closing out on shooters. Whether this group can execute it is an open question, though I think it stands a better chance at covering for Lillard on that end than any of the recent Portland teams.


That lineup looks like a defensive disaster.
   3011. Dandy Little Glove Man Posted: July 27, 2021 at 12:32 PM (#6030713)
yes, but at significant cost in terms of future firsts.

New Orleans still has 2 first rounders this year and then 7 in the next 7 drafts. It was all excess picks. 2023 is the only year the Pelicans won't have a 1st rounder, and then in 2024 (or 2025 if they so choose) they have 2.

Zion is already the league's best interior scorer, and his long-term health is a question. Maybe one of those far-out picks ends up being really high, but I think it's worth it to fast-track the road to contention.
   3012. tshipman Posted: July 27, 2021 at 12:34 PM (#6030714)
Pelton has his draft rankings out (mix of stats and composite rankings) - things look kind of like how you might expect if you look at these every year. Model love, love, loves Sengun (#1 overall by a lot). Cunningham and Green are in a near dead heat for #2, with Mobley #4.


The thing with Sengun is that:

a: he's a big
b: you have to have a good understanding of the Turkish Super league
c: his best skill is offensive rebounding, where he's an absolute monster, but has generally grown less valuable in the NBA and is somewhat scheme dependent

If I were confident on b, I'd take him over Mobley, but who the hell knows on this stuff.
   3013. Der-K's emotional investment is way up Posted: July 27, 2021 at 12:36 PM (#6030715)
2-4 are solid defenders in some setups, but with the tactical problem of all being small. (lonzo isn't small, small, but isn't strong). zion at five is a problem and not a guy that will help the issues at 1-4. lillard is a problem.

excess picks: i get it but there's an opportunity cost, that's all. to be fair, if i'm running NO i'm doing so knowing that ownership wants to win now and that some picks will go...

---

that model does penalize bigs, fwiw. few rank highly accordingly.
c gives me particular pause (and - i'll note - blair and faried were monsters on the o glass as well).
other qs - who does he guard - can he get to average? (i'm presuming he's a legit 6-10, btw) what is his ceiling as an outside shooter? needs to get to 35% from three or so.
   3014. tshipman Posted: July 27, 2021 at 12:47 PM (#6030717)
Like, how good of a defender is Sengun? Beskitas was sort of mediocre on defense, although above average, but I have no clue how to pace adjust the Turkish super league.

He would have to play as the C in an NBA scheme, because he can't shoot. His defensive rebounding numbers are sort of mediocre, and Beskitas was mediocre as a defensive rebounding team. His hands actually look okay. He has decent, but unexceptional block numbers (Euroleague is often lower steals and blocks).

This is the kind of pick that makes your career or gets you fired.

   3015. Der-K's emotional investment is way up Posted: July 27, 2021 at 12:52 PM (#6030718)
sengun on d - not great. he seems tweener-y in a bad way to my naive eye. i think the defensive rebounding can improve a bit as he develops.
he needs to develop a three point shot and i think he will (shot looks ok to me, was at 81% from the line in turkish play). he's pretty great in the halfcourt on offense otherwise.
heard him to SA in a lot of mock drafts which ... feels right for some reason?

the best case scenario is he's the new kevin love.
   3016. Der-K's emotional investment is way up Posted: July 27, 2021 at 12:53 PM (#6030719)
(edit: double post)
   3017. Willard Baseball Posted: July 27, 2021 at 12:53 PM (#6030720)
If I was real life New Orleans I would go slow, build around Zion and Ball, and trade Ingram for future picks. However, ownership/Griffin/Zion want to go for it. And the group assembled is a playoff team that is destined to win until they run into a good halfcourt offense in the playoffs, whichever round that may be.
   3018. . . . . . . Posted: July 27, 2021 at 01:12 PM (#6030722)
Sengun seems like a perfectly reasonable pick in the range he's projected to go in. High beta international guy. No one is betting their career on a late lottery pick.

FWIW, I do think he looks like a slightly-less-undersized DeJuan Blair, but critically, with two functioning knees and without the weight issues. And DeJuan Blair with two functioning knees, +1" and -20lbs would've been an excellent NBA player.

   3019. Der-K's emotional investment is way up Posted: July 27, 2021 at 01:20 PM (#6030725)
Sengun is also a pretty good passer.

Take him top 4? - you’re betting your career. Not at 7-15…
   3020. Dandy Little Glove Man Posted: July 27, 2021 at 01:26 PM (#6030727)
the Lillard/Ball pairing is suboptimal (Ball's marginal value is reduced by having to play off Lillard)

I disagree with this criticism the most strongly. Ball suffers from a lesser version of Ben Simmons's problem: he's not enough of a shooter/scorer off the dribble to be an effective primary ball-handler in the half court. His assisted / unassisted numbers are those of a shooting guard, not a point guard.

Lonzo's great as a distributor in transition or if he can get downhill against an unbalanced defense, but you can't just run PnR with him and expect success. I actually think that adding Lillard would make Lonzo more valuable offensively, as it gives him more opportunities to catch the ball in favorable situations for him, where he can take the open jumper off the catch or attack a scrambling, overextended defense.

The defensive questions are legitimate, though (1) I think you can scheme around them much better than you can scheme around a lack of offensive firepower, (2) strong defensive 4/5s are generally among the easier players to find cheaply to give the team another look as needed, and (3) I didn't see any real 2-way stars available to New Orleans now or in the near future, and thus this appears to me as the most likely path to contention. I strongly considered giving up the #2 pick for SGA instead, and quite possibly I would've done that if the Pelicans were believed to be taking a longer-term approach or if the Lillard deal fell through.
   3021. DCA Posted: July 27, 2021 at 01:41 PM (#6030728)
Lillard's better of course, but I do think SGA fits better with Ball/Zion in terms of both role and timeline.
   3022. tshipman Posted: July 27, 2021 at 01:58 PM (#6030730)
My priority if I were in charge of New Orleans would be to figure out what the heck you're doing with Zion on defense. Does he have to play with another big? Can you make him effective as a center?

To me, that's the question I want to answer so I can figure out who goes with Zion.

Take him top 4? - you’re betting your career. Not at 7-15…


This is what I meant, although I think Segun is a career maker if you take him at 10 or so and he hits big. If you get the best player in the draft at 10, that is huuuuuuuuuuge.
   3023. Willard Baseball Posted: July 27, 2021 at 02:05 PM (#6030732)
I think Zion has poor defensive instincts and is a poor defensive rebounder. I think you have to play him strictly as a PF. Then you have to find a defensive center that can play on the perimeter offensively.

This is what separates the all-time greats from just great players. When you have to cover up your best player's weaknesses with a very specific skill type (and one that isn't readily available), it makes it very hard to win championships, even if Zion becomes the best offensive player in the NBA.
   3024. Der-K's emotional investment is way up Posted: July 27, 2021 at 02:30 PM (#6030733)
i also think you want to play zion at pf on defense because it'll be easier to hide him there + he has some untapped potential as a help defender. (that he's given minimal indication of as a pro, mind you). i'd want him next to a myles turner type, if possible.
   3025. aberg Posted: July 27, 2021 at 02:54 PM (#6030736)
a myles turner type


I think this archetype (along with Lopez) of a big who can guard fives, protect the rim, and space the floor on offense is becoming the new version of the "George Hill type" of a lead guard who can play effectively off ball, guard across perimeter positions, and knock down shots next to a non-PG primary initiator (Lebron, Kawhi, KD types). the Myles Turner type is great next to an offense-first big with some mobility but not great PNR defense. It's a very useful player type but probably a little rarer than it would seem. The Hill/Beverley or Turner/Lopez types aren't elite players, but they have pretty unique skill sets. Horford could kinda do that role a few years ago. It looks like Ibaka is in decline now. Maybe Boucher or Wood?
   3026. Der-K's emotional investment is way up Posted: July 27, 2021 at 03:04 PM (#6030741)
i like that distinction, aberg, but i was thinking of something closer to turner than boucher/wood (note to self: ask toronto gm what he wants for boucher) in the sense that you'd need a little more strength/bulk in that role.
   3027. Your favorite TFTIO, me! Posted: July 27, 2021 at 03:24 PM (#6030743)
Toronto here! I'm going to want to hold onto Boucher, but I'd listen? Also, Siakam is available.
   3028. jmurph Posted: July 27, 2021 at 03:27 PM (#6030744)
I guess I'm holding up the draft (Cavs at 3) and don't want to do that much longer. Anyone want to jump up to 3 to take Jalen Green? Make an offer.
   3029. Der-K's emotional investment is way up Posted: July 27, 2021 at 03:41 PM (#6030745)
tftio - like with everybody else that i'm pestering, i don't see an immediate match between us, but - if you want a rebuilding project ... boucher is already going to be 29 next year, you just had his career season, and he's got one year left on the deal. he's also one of my favorite players and i'd like to try to convert him into a backup four who can be my backup five until okongwu comes back.
let's talk bigger ideas first.

what is your big picture plan - a rebuild? is og on the table?

i consider pascal a negative value but he could be potentially be part of a bigger deal between us if you wanted collins at the max, i suppose.
   3030. asinwreck Posted: July 27, 2021 at 03:52 PM (#6030746)
Would Cleveland do LaVine for pick 1-3, Sexton, and Nance? If so, the Bulls will do that deal.
   3031. Your favorite TFTIO, me! Posted: July 27, 2021 at 03:53 PM (#6030747)
I think that the core of the team is OG and the #4 pick; I like Boucher and FVV but don't consider them irreplaceable. I love Siakam but like you say he's a negative value on that contract, and unlikely to get above water unless he really was just ###### by Tampa last year. It's hard for me to say what the best path forward is -- I like how Ujiri built a championship team, and it doesn't seem like a teardown and rebuild would be his approach, but I'm a lot less sure of my own evaluation skills than I am of his lol.
   3032. jmurph Posted: July 27, 2021 at 03:53 PM (#6030749)
Would Cleveland do LaVine for pick 1-3, Sexton, and Nance? If so, the Bulls will do that deal.

No thanks, I think that's way too much for LaVine.

   3033. . . . . . . Posted: July 27, 2021 at 03:53 PM (#6030750)
Would Cleveland do LaVine for pick 1-3, Sexton, and Nance? If so, the Bulls will do that deal.


the stuggles is strong with this one
   3034. jmurph Posted: July 27, 2021 at 03:57 PM (#6030751)
Alright gonna think like Cavs and make a wacky offer to Toronto:
Sexton, Prince, Osman, and #3 for Siakam, #4, and 46.

EDIT: Why you should do it: Sexton slides in to, cough, replace Lowry (stifles laugh). Okay seriously his scoring at least. Prince is useful and expiring, Osman... matches salary. Siakam is overpaid. You get to take Jalen Green at 3.
   3035. Your favorite TFTIO, me! Posted: July 27, 2021 at 04:32 PM (#6030753)
I think we'll pass, thanks.
   3036. aberg Posted: July 27, 2021 at 04:35 PM (#6030754)
I do not like a Sexton-FVV pairing.
   3037. Your favorite TFTIO, me! Posted: July 27, 2021 at 04:35 PM (#6030755)
I do not like a Sexton-FVV pairing.

Sweet merciful Christ, no.
   3038. jmurph Posted: July 27, 2021 at 04:36 PM (#6030756)
Alright screw it I'll give someone a gift because I'm not creative enough to find a good trade at 3: the Cavs take Jalen Suggs, G, Gonzaga at #3. Will write up later.

Toronto is on the clock at #4.

EDIT: Fixed it, thanks TFTIO.
   3039. Your favorite TFTIO, me! Posted: July 27, 2021 at 04:37 PM (#6030757)
At #3, you mean?
   3040. jmurph Posted: July 27, 2021 at 04:38 PM (#6030758)
I do not like a Sexton-FVV pairing.

I gave up trying to move him, but if you're playing a guy like Sexton, he probably needs a guy like Suggs (or the best case version of Suggs at least).

I think the real life Cavs will do something to chase the play-in game because they have a bad owner and a GM who consistently makes bad decisions.
   3041. Your favorite TFTIO, me! Posted: July 27, 2021 at 04:40 PM (#6030759)
Anybody hot for Green? He's still available!
   3042. Der-K's emotional investment is way up Posted: July 27, 2021 at 04:54 PM (#6030764)
the one team i could see being hot for him that doesn't have an owner is DC, if they were willing to cut ties with beal. (and if i ran dc, they would have before now)
   3043. Your favorite TFTIO, me! Posted: July 27, 2021 at 04:55 PM (#6030765)
I'll let it sit for a bit, then. I am interested in trading down (8-12) range.
   3044. DCA Posted: July 27, 2021 at 05:36 PM (#6030768)
GSW may be interested in #4. Wiseman + 14 for Boucher + 4? At the pool so won’t be back online for a few hours but wanted to float it.
   3045. Harlond Posted: July 27, 2021 at 05:38 PM (#6030770)
Who was taken second? I can't find that pick?
   3046. jmurph Posted: July 27, 2021 at 05:59 PM (#6030773)
Mobley. It’s back there somewhere.
   3047. Der-K's emotional investment is way up Posted: July 27, 2021 at 06:05 PM (#6030776)
Whoa.

@urbodo
Usman Garuba's contract with Real Madrid includes an NBA buyout clause of 3 million euros, per sources. Every other season in Europe will increase his buyout for another €1M, I was told.

That might be his first year’s gross salary. Also: gross.
----
rumor: Jazz might (irl) attached pick #30 to Favors, as I "predicted" in that expansion draft thought exercise. Feel like that's too much, that they should get a second rounder back in return.
   3048. Oriole Tragic Posted: July 27, 2021 at 06:27 PM (#6030779)
@mike f / POR:

What's your ask for Nurkic?
   3049. mike f Posted: July 27, 2021 at 06:35 PM (#6030780)
OT, just make me a reasonable offer.

TFTIO, anything you want from POR + 10?
   3050. Harlond Posted: July 27, 2021 at 06:40 PM (#6030782)
1. Detroit (Crosseyed)-Cade Cunningham
2. Portland (mikef) (trade)-Evan Mobley
3. Cleveland (jmurph)-Jalen Suggs
4. Toronto (TFTIO)-
5. Orlando (Athletic Supporter)-
6. Oklahoma City (harlond)-
7. Golden State (DCA)-
8. Orlando (Athletic Supporter)-
9. Sacramento (tshipman)-
10. Portland (mikef) (trade)-
11. Charlotte (JJ1986)-
12. San Antonio (Thok)-
13. Indiana (harlond)-
14. Golden State (DCA)-
15. Washington-
16. Oklahoma City (harlond)-
17. Memphis (Willard)-
18. Oklahoma City (harlond)-
19. Sacramento (tshipman) (trade)-
20. Atlanta (Der-K)-
21. New York (. . . . .)-
22. LA Lakers (Shohei)-
23. New Orleans (Dandy) (trade)-
24. New Orleans (Dandy) (trade)-
25. LA Clippers-
26. Denver (aberg)-
27. Brooklyn-
28. Philadelphia (Stiggles)-
29. Phoenix (GregF)-
30. Utah-

31. Milwaukee (Ken Griffey)-
32. New York (. . . . .)-
33. Orlando (Athletic Supporter)-
34. Oklahoma City (harlond)-
35. Houston (Oriole Tragic) (trade)-
36. Oklahoma City (harlond)-
37. Detroit (Crosseyed)-
38. Chicago (asinwreck)-
39. Sacramento (tshipman)-
40. New Orleans (Dandy)-
41. San Antonio (Thok)-
42. Detroit (Crosseyed)-
43. New Orleans (Dandy)-
44. Brooklyn-
45. Boston (rr)-
46. Toronto (TFTIO)-
47. Toronto (TFTIO)-
48. Atlanta (Der-K)-
49. Brooklyn-
50. Philadelphia (Stiggles)-
51. Memphis (Willard)-
52. Detroit (Crosseyed)-
53. New Orleans (Dandy)-
54. Indiana (harlond)-
55. Oklahoma City (harlond)-
56. Charlotte (JJ1986)-
57. Charlotte (JJ1986)-
58. New York (. . . . .)-
59. Brooklyn-
60. Indiana (harlond)-

Portland (mike f) - no picks
Minnesota (Mellow Mouse) - no picks

Trade 1-GSW gets Delon Wright
SAC gets Kevon Looney, Eric Paschall, 2022 R2

Trade 2-NYK gets DeAaron Fox
SAC gets RJ Barrett, 2021 R1.19

Trade 3-NOP gets #2, #23, #24, Gordon
HOU gets Ingram, #35, Lakers 2022 FRP (top 4 protected)

Trade 4-POR gets: #2, #10, 1st rounders in 2023, 2025, and 2027, + pick 2 of Adams, Gordon, and Bledsoe for salary purposes
NO gets: Lillard, Covington
   3051. tshipman Posted: July 27, 2021 at 06:59 PM (#6030784)
rumor: Jazz might (irl) attached pick #30 to Favors, as I "predicted" in that expansion draft thought exercise. Feel like that's too much, that they should get a second rounder back in return.


I feel like everyone knows the Jazz are ###### and *need* to dump salary to avoid tax, so that will mean they have to take a bad deal.

Overpaying Favors was so inexplicable last season, and now you're attaching a pick to get off it ... just ... wow.
   3052. tshipman Posted: July 27, 2021 at 07:03 PM (#6030785)
I would offer #19 and #9 to move up to 4, but not sure if that's viewed as being a lowball or not, honestly.
   3053. spivey 2 Posted: July 27, 2021 at 07:12 PM (#6030786)
I can be Washington, to continue to round out the teams. Also I just am sick of them not tearing down, so I will try to do just that.

Bradley Beal is available, as is Westbrook, as is Bertans. Westbrook I'm treating as no worse than neutral value as I think he still has value in the right situations for teams that are near the hump. I am fine carrying him into the season.

Beal I would be looking for something between the Holiday and the Harden deal. OK with pick swaps and first rounders far out into the future. TFTIO, I know you mentioned a rebuild, but if you wanted to pivot and celebrate your core of players that was 4th in SRS just 2 years ago and do something revolving around #4 + OG or FVV for Beal, I would be interested. Also open to include #15 in the right deal.

Bertans I think is worth an asset or two, as he's the best stretch big in the NBA and despite his weak box score stats is a great plus-minus player.

Willing to take back bad money to make these work.
   3054. jmurph Posted: July 27, 2021 at 07:14 PM (#6030787)
the Cavs take Jalen Suggs, G, Gonzaga at #3.

So nothing too complicated to explain this. If you're keeping Sexton, you probably need a secondary ball handler with a little size who can shoot, guard, distribute, etc. Suggs is theoretically that guy if the Brandon Roy-type comps turn out to be true. Also, despite having seen literally none of him, I'm skeptical of Jalen Green based on everything I've read about him (not as a person, just a player).

Sexton/Suggs/Nance/Allen is not a horrible place from which to build, the issue of course is Allen is about to be paid and Sexton probably isn't going to turn into a top player and will need to be paid soon, too, and they're on the hook for two years and 60 million for Kevin Love. So, in real life, they should probably shop everyone but Allen and this pick and reset around those guys, I guess? I don't know, they've made a lot of bad moves over the past 4 years or so, it might take a while.
   3055. tshipman Posted: July 27, 2021 at 07:17 PM (#6030788)
I don't know what Cleveland should do, I just dislike their ownership and management, so I kind of hope they continue to be bad for years.

Edit: IRL, not in this exercise.
   3056. Your favorite TFTIO, me! Posted: July 27, 2021 at 07:24 PM (#6030790)
Toronto likes the sound of #4 for #10, Adams (of course can't happen right away) and, say, Portland's 2023 1st ETA NO's 2025?
   3057. Your favorite TFTIO, me! Posted: July 27, 2021 at 07:26 PM (#6030791)
Sexton/Suggs/Nance/Allen

What happened to Darius Garland?
   3058. mike f Posted: July 27, 2021 at 07:55 PM (#6030796)
Can I trade Adams for a pick? And I’m not following “Portland's 2023 1st ETA NO's 2025?”
   3059. Harlond Posted: July 27, 2021 at 08:12 PM (#6030801)
Not entirely sure, but I believe you can do so provided the team receiving Adams will have enough cap space when the trade is complete.
   3060. DCA Posted: July 27, 2021 at 08:12 PM (#6030802)
I think you can trade Adams for anything. You can’t package him with another player. I think you can package him with picks but not sure.
   3061. Your favorite TFTIO, me! Posted: July 27, 2021 at 08:13 PM (#6030803)
Sorry, I meant "Portland 2023 1st & NO 2025 1st". I am assuming that we can find the space for Adams.
   3062. mike f Posted: July 27, 2021 at 08:15 PM (#6030804)
Alright. Feels like an overpay but YOLO. Call it in and I’ll take Green.
   3063. Der-K's emotional investment is way up Posted: July 27, 2021 at 08:23 PM (#6030805)
Real Cavs reportedly want to dump Osman (who is bad) and Nance (who isn’t, if healthy) to clear up their 22-23 books.
—-
Adams: it also might not be too late to make the original team a 3 teamer, no? (If that would then be cap legal)
   3064. tshipman Posted: July 27, 2021 at 08:23 PM (#6030806)
Wow, you really like Adams + 10 and a 2023 pick more than 9+19?
   3065. mike f Posted: July 27, 2021 at 08:27 PM (#6030807)
2023 and 2025
   3066. Your favorite TFTIO, me! Posted: July 27, 2021 at 08:30 PM (#6030808)
Three firsts and Adams for a #4? Yeah. We're rebuilding. Interest in FVV and Siakam? OG I keep.
   3067. 57i66135 is available to babysit, for a price Posted: July 27, 2021 at 08:33 PM (#6030809)
Tom Moore @TomMoorePhilly
#NBA source: #Sixers are more likely to trade the No. 28 pick in Thursday night's draft than they were a few weeks ago. They apparently have been getting some solid offers for their late first-round selection. #NBADraft
Kyle Neubeck @KyleNeubeck
The Raptors reportedly rejected a Ben Simmons trade proposal where they would have given up most of their good players. A few thoughts: phillyvoice.com/sixers-nba-tra…
Chris Sheridan @sheridanhoops
On a lighter note, Team USA favored by 41 1/2 vs. Iran. Who ya got?
   3068. Your favorite TFTIO, me! Posted: July 27, 2021 at 08:36 PM (#6030811)
The rumour was Simmons/<stuff> for #4/OG/FVV/Lowry s/t which ... of course Morey made that ask?
   3069. Der-K's emotional investment is way up Posted: July 27, 2021 at 08:38 PM (#6030813)
You know, this version of the Pelicans could probably use FVV at the point more than Ball. Maybe you two should talk a swap?

Oh wait, you have Lillard now - maybe not.
   3070. Athletic Supporter is USDA certified lean Posted: July 27, 2021 at 08:50 PM (#6030814)
Orlando takes Scottie Barnes at 5. No need to try to be a genius here. OKC / Harlond up at 6.
   3071. 57i66135 is available to babysit, for a price Posted: July 27, 2021 at 09:07 PM (#6030815)
The 3-on-3 basketball I know is loose and casual, and the formalized version being played in Tokyo ought to be tweaked to better conform to the true spirit of the game. Here, then, is a list of nine things wrong with Olympic 3-on-3 basketball
...
3. Players should call their own fouls.
Each Olympics 3-on-3 basketball game features two referees, which, in my opinion, is two too many. Pickup basketball is meant to be played on a “no blood, no foul” basis, as per the rules codified in the YMCA Accords of 1972. I think that the games would be much more fun if the players were forced to call their own fouls, and to argue with one another over whether something was or was not a foul, and to eventually say, “Fine, whatever, dude, I literally barely touched you, but whatever” as they stomp back on defense. If nothing else, this change would make it much easier for viewers to determine who the most whiny and annoying players on each team are.
...
7. Each game should begin with one team captain asking the other if they “wanna run full court?”
   3072. Your favorite TFTIO, me! Posted: July 27, 2021 at 09:22 PM (#6030817)
If the Pels want to talk about FVV, I'd be interested in some of those Lakers picks.
   3073. Harlond Posted: July 27, 2021 at 09:24 PM (#6030818)
Damn, I was hoping Barnes would fall to me. Oh well.

With the 6th pick, the Thunder take Josh Giddey. This is higher than he's projected (though I've now seen or heard projections as high as 7), but I'm a believer that high BB IQ players usually figure out how to contribute.

DCA is on the clock.

1. Detroit (Crosseyed)-Cade Cunningham
2. Portland (mikef) (trade)-Evan Mobley
3. Cleveland (jmurph)-Jalen Suggs
4. Portland (mikef) (trade)-Jalen Green
5. Orlando (Athletic Supporter)-Scottie Barnes
6. Oklahoma City (harlond)-Josh Giddey
7. Golden State (DCA)-
8. Orlando (Athletic Supporter)-
9. Sacramento (tshipman)-
10. Toronto (TFTIO)- (trade)-
11. Charlotte (JJ1986)-
12. San Antonio (Thok)-
13. Indiana (harlond)-
14. Golden State (DCA)-
15. Washington (spivey2)-
16. Oklahoma City (harlond)-
17. Memphis (Willard)-
18. Oklahoma City (harlond)-
19. Sacramento (tshipman) (trade)-
20. Atlanta (Der-K)-
21. New York (. . . . .)-
22. LA Lakers (Shohei)-
23. New Orleans (Dandy) (trade)-
24. New Orleans (Dandy) (trade)-
25. LA Clippers-
26. Denver (aberg)-
27. Brooklyn-
28. Philadelphia (Stiggles)-
29. Phoenix (GregF)-
30. Utah-

31. Milwaukee (Ken Griffey)-
32. New York (. . . . .)-
33. Orlando (Athletic Supporter)-
34. Oklahoma City (harlond)-
35. Houston (Oriole Tragic) (trade)-
36. Oklahoma City (harlond)-
37. Detroit (Crosseyed)-
38. Chicago (asinwreck)-
39. Sacramento (tshipman)-
40. New Orleans (Dandy)-
41. San Antonio (Thok)-
42. Detroit (Crosseyed)-
43. New Orleans (Dandy)-
44. Brooklyn-
45. Boston (rr)-
46. Toronto (TFTIO)-
47. Toronto (TFTIO)-
48. Atlanta (Der-K)-
49. Brooklyn-
50. Philadelphia (Stiggles)-
51. Memphis (Willard)-
52. Detroit (Crosseyed)-
53. New Orleans (Dandy)-
54. Indiana (harlond)-
55. Oklahoma City (harlond)-
56. Charlotte (JJ1986)-
57. Charlotte (JJ1986)-
58. New York (. . . . .)-
59. Brooklyn-
60. Indiana (harlond)-

Portland (mike f) - no picks
Minnesota (Mellow Mouse) - no picks

Trade 1-GSW gets Delon Wright
SAC gets Kevon Looney, Eric Paschall, 2022 R2

Trade 2-NYK gets DeAaron Fox
SAC gets RJ Barrett, 2021 R1.19

Trade 3-NOP gets #2, #23, #24, Gordon
HOU gets Ingram, #35, Lakers 2022 FRP (top 4 protected)

Trade 4-POR gets: #2, #10, 1st rounders in 2023, 2025, and 2027, + pick 2 of Adams, Gordon, and Bledsoe for salary purposes
NO gets: Lillard, Covington

Trade 5-Toronto trades #4 for#10, Adams, and Portland's 2023 1st and NO's 2025 1st
   3074. Your favorite TFTIO, me! Posted: July 27, 2021 at 09:24 PM (#6030819)
####. Giddey was my target at 10.
   3075. Der-K's emotional investment is way up Posted: July 27, 2021 at 09:36 PM (#6030820)
I like Giddey and would consider him at 6 as well.
   3076. 57i66135 is available to babysit, for a price Posted: July 27, 2021 at 09:48 PM (#6030821)
fun fact:
when you watch josh giddey play, his arms are usually crimped up in the "ben carson" position.


bonus fun fact:
there are never fewer than 7 jon brockmans on the floor of any given ABL game.
   3077. DCA Posted: July 27, 2021 at 09:54 PM (#6030822)
Giddey was not in my top 10. So I'm happy here. With pick 7, GSW take Jonathan Kuminga.

Just about every ranking that I see has Cade #1, Mobley/Suggs/Green 2-4 in some order, Barnes/Kuminga at 5/6 in some order, and then a dozen or so guys in apparently random order. Kuminga's stats in the G League do not impress, but neither do the college stats of most of the guys in the next dozen, so I'm not going to argue with the consensus.
   3078. asinwreck Posted: July 27, 2021 at 10:05 PM (#6030824)
I want to see Giddey and Poku take the court on the same team IRL.
   3079. Oriole Tragic Posted: July 27, 2021 at 10:10 PM (#6030825)
@mike f / POR: I honestly don't know what's fair for Nurkic. He's on a 12M expiring, right? You want #35 for him?

@TFTIO / TOR(?): I have one of those Lakers picks, now. In our timeline branch, it's the Lakers 2022 FRP, top-4 protected. That enough of a starting point to talk FVV? He's a good player, but that feels a little rich without something else coming back. LMK?
   3080. tshipman Posted: July 27, 2021 at 10:20 PM (#6030826)
I'm not a Giddey fan. Like, so much has to go right for him from where he's starting from.
   3081. DCA Posted: July 27, 2021 at 10:38 PM (#6030828)
TFTIO - if you don't have a better plan for pick 10 now that Giddey's gone, GSW will offer Wiseman for Boucher + 10.
   3082. Der-K's emotional investment is way up Posted: July 27, 2021 at 10:41 PM (#6030829)
No one is running Brooklyn. But - if I’m running Brooklyn? I offer Portland a Jordan/Nurkic swap along with 3 seconds.
   3083. Athletic Supporter is USDA certified lean Posted: July 27, 2021 at 11:17 PM (#6030834)
Again, Orlando will do the obvious simple thing, and draft James Bouknight at #8.
   3084. tshipman Posted: July 27, 2021 at 11:24 PM (#6030835)
I will take Sengun at #9. He has the highest upside of the guys left.

Edit: I realize that I am a massive hypocrite in saying you should never draft a big in the lottery and in shittalking this guy earlier. If you pretend to be the Kings too long, you become the KANGZ.
   3085. Der-K's emotional investment is way up Posted: July 27, 2021 at 11:37 PM (#6030836)
hahahahahaha
   3086. mike f Posted: July 27, 2021 at 11:38 PM (#6030837)
I’ll keep Nurk now that Adams is gone.
   3087. Willard Baseball Posted: July 27, 2021 at 11:42 PM (#6030839)
TShipman, I laughed at both the pick and your explanation.

In your defense, Holmes is about to get 10+ million, and you said he wasn't worth more than minimum, so I assume you let him walk in this exercise.
   3088. DCA Posted: July 27, 2021 at 11:45 PM (#6030840)
Sengun was my pick at 7 if Kuminga wasn't there. He was the most unique of the guys after the top 6, and I'd still have the 14 to use on one of the projectable 3 + D wings that still has to work on his 3 and/or D.
   3089. tshipman Posted: July 28, 2021 at 12:25 AM (#6030847)
I'd still have the 14 to use on one of the projectable 3 + D wings that still has to work on his 3 and/or D


Yeah, so this is where I was at as well.

For all the talk about how this draft is so deep, it appears to mostly be deep with NBA players, but not star caliber upside guys. IMO, after Cade and Green, there just aren't that many guys that I look at and think, wow, that could really be a star. Maybe Suggs, but his college stats are not all that amazing, IMO. Maybe Scottie Barnes, but he needs to figure out how to shoot and seems a long way away.

Other guys I considered:
Moses Moody--looks like a 10 year NBA vet, but not a star. Mediocre finisher, projectible shooter, and projectible defense. I think he's a real player, but the Kings aren't going to be able to use him for years.
Keon Johnson--Short, can't shoot, can't really pass. Hard to see him as a star.
Corey Kispert, Davion Mitchell--old as hell
Usman Garuba--love, love this guy's game, and he's going to play in the league, but he'd have to get so much better at so many things to be a star.

I think the principled thing to do would be to take either Moody or Garuba, because I am confident that they are NBA players. I think they are likely to be NBA playoff rotation guys. I think their 80th percentile outcome is something like Miles Bridges, though. Is Miles Bridges a difference maker for the Kings? I dunno. I guess that's why bad franchises stay bad. Taking Turkish league MVPs who can't play defense.
   3090. Athletic Supporter is USDA certified lean Posted: July 28, 2021 at 12:42 AM (#6030849)
For all the talk about how this draft is so deep, it appears to mostly be deep with NBA players, but not star caliber upside guys.


This is more or less what I think too. After Cade I'm not super psyched about anyone. I figured I'd end up with Barnes at 5 and was very happy with that outcome -- I'm fairly certain he'll end up as a plus defender and when in doubt take that guy because in today's NBA you can never have enough versatile wing defense. The other nice thing about the defense-first archetype is that they are unlikely to break the bank market-wise so they end up as a potential bargain for longer (unlike the Zach LaVines of the world who get big RFA offers).

I don't know that Barnes will ever be good on O, but I think it's more likely than Jalen Green being good on D, and Green is going to be expensive faster if they hit their 75th percentile projections.

I felt like I had to grab Bouknight when he fell to 8 but that's partly because I wasn't excited about any of the other options and he at least has upside as a potential plus scorer. I wasn't going to grab one of the old guys for the terrible Magic. I'm not a believer in Sengun... he strikes me as an old school 4, a position which doesn't thrive in the modern NBA. Moody and Ziaire Williams were the two other players I considered, but Bouknight felt like a marginally better lottery ticket, especially since I can give him lots of usage on day one and he'll help me continue to lose that first year while getting the reps he'll need to develop if it's going to happen for him.
   3091. My name is Votto, and I love to get Moppo Posted: July 28, 2021 at 08:44 AM (#6030856)
I've been away for a couple days, but I can draft for Brooklyn.

   3092. Harlond Posted: July 28, 2021 at 09:00 AM (#6030859)
TFTIO, any interest in #33 in this draft and the OKC 2022 1st (top 5 protected) for pick #10?
   3093. JJ1986 Posted: July 28, 2021 at 10:35 AM (#6030874)
Based just on these mock drafts, Myles Turner would be my favorite player, but does Indiana have any interest in a trade centered around him and Giovanny Halffoot? I can take any salary (Lamb?) that you consider negative value.
   3094. DCA Posted: July 28, 2021 at 10:52 AM (#6030878)
JJ - you may prefer taking a swing for Turner but I'm still open to Wiggins/Wiseman for GH/Washington which you were considering on a previous page.
   3095. Oriole Tragic Posted: July 28, 2021 at 10:54 AM (#6030880)
@aberg HOU is flush with "bench guards", and could probably use a rotation big. (I tried to get Nurkic, for example.) LMK if you see anybody on my roster that can help? (I already traded Gordon.)

I also have '21 #35 and LAL '22 FRP if you thinking of draft assets.
   3096. Your favorite TFTIO, me! Posted: July 28, 2021 at 10:58 AM (#6030883)
I think Toronto will take Garuba at #10, and trust in their development staff.
   3097. Der-K's emotional investment is way up Posted: July 28, 2021 at 11:14 AM (#6030886)
I think this is an above average draft, at the top and middle in particular. Cunningham and Green both would have been my top pick last year and maybe Mobley (I worry about the motor but he potentially has every skill you'd look for).
(which makes sense (added depth), given that we know some of the '20 talent delayed entry by a year)
   3098. Der-K's emotional investment is way up Posted: July 28, 2021 at 11:23 AM (#6030887)
oriole - out of curiosity (i don't see atlanta wanting him), how do you feel about porter?
   3099. Harlond Posted: July 28, 2021 at 11:30 AM (#6030889)
I would like to move Turner, but Gorbachev Hrennikoff's salary is more than I want to take on. And at only $10 million for 2 more years, I don't think of Lamb (.406 from 3Pt) as negative value.

I'll trade Turner for your 2021 1st (#11), your 2022 1st, and PJ Washington.

Oh wait a minute, can't trade consecutive 1sts. Make it 2023 1st.
   3100. Oriole Tragic Posted: July 28, 2021 at 11:42 AM (#6030892)
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