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Friday, May 21, 2021

NBA 2021 Playoffs+ thread

I estimate there are maybe 10-12 Primates left on this site, and they all post in the NBA thread.

Moses Taylor hashes out the rumpus Posted: May 21, 2021 at 01:07 PM | 4930 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
  Tags: clutch, narratives, nba, off topic, redemption

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   4101. Harlond Posted: August 07, 2021 at 12:19 AM (#6033348)
How does Dame miss 2 FTs?
   4102. tshipman Posted: August 07, 2021 at 12:22 AM (#6033349)
Durant should get 3 gold medals for this carry job he's done.
   4103. Harlond Posted: August 07, 2021 at 12:25 AM (#6033350)
Durant should get 3 gold medals for this carry job he's done.
True dat. Jrue was pretty good. Draymond, too.
   4104. Mike A Posted: August 07, 2021 at 12:28 AM (#6033351)
How does Dame miss 2 FTs?
Yeah, that's roughly a 1 in 100 chance. Would have made those last few seconds a little less stressful.

It wasn't pretty, but a win is a win. Lack of size on the US was an issue, but they did a good job creating turnovers. All they really needed was a player or two to get hot alongside Durant's offense. Tonight, it was Tatum.

And I agree with everyone that Jrue made a big difference. They're lucky he said yes.
   4105. tshipman Posted: August 07, 2021 at 12:30 AM (#6033352)
Jrue was fine, but not amazing.

He looked great because every other US guard was kind of dogshit.
   4106. 57i66135 is available to babysit, for a price Posted: August 07, 2021 at 12:35 AM (#6033354)
How does Dame miss 2 FTs?
he was ingratiating himself to the people of philadelphia because he knows our PGs cannot make FTs to save their ####### lives.
   4107. rr: cosmopolitan elite Posted: August 07, 2021 at 12:51 AM (#6033357)
Seems like Durant is sort of "on a mission" "has the F-U edge" etc. and wants to remind everybody of how great he still is.
   4108. spivey 2 Posted: August 07, 2021 at 10:31 AM (#6033370)
The USA team really kind of went away from Durant in the 4th quarter, even the second half. I would have liked to have seen more high pick and roll with Durant. Or just give Durant the ball and let him rise and fire. But, a win is a win.

Re: 4105 - Jrue was the only guy who was playing defense on the wing. He was the main guy who they weren't having to switch on the Gobert screens with too, and he just picked up tons of steals as well as forcing Fourier into some absurd shots. I would have liked to have seen more Jrue + Durant + big + 2 wing lineups. I was surprised how little Tatum played in the second half when he was so good in the first. Also, Lavine was out there as a defensive sub up 5 with like 8 seconds left? There's always been a bit of randomness to the Team USA minutes for as long as I can remember, but there were points this match I thought it could have cost us the game.
   4109. spivey 2 Posted: August 07, 2021 at 10:40 AM (#6033371)
Durant didn't need this for his legacy, and he said when J Will was making up stories about him he doesn't talk like that, but his legacy is god damn secure. I think he's Best in World right now. So insane that he's doing all of this after carrying Brooklyn, and in his first season back after a torn achilles.

I think when all is said and done, he could be a top 10 guy.

Related - I've often thought the Backpicks Top 40 is maybe a bit too scouting/narrative/smoothing of playoff results, but I've been listening to a bunch of different basketball pods lately and Thinking Basketball may be my favorite. I just really like listening to Ben Taylor talk about basketball.
   4110. Harlond Posted: August 07, 2021 at 10:48 AM (#6033373)
Evidently Dame had some sort of abdominal injury during the Olympics. That explains why he couldn't shoot, but then why was he playing?
   4111. spivey 2 Posted: August 07, 2021 at 11:05 AM (#6033376)
International legend Patty Mills had 42 and 9 to get Australia a long awaited medal.
   4112. Ken Griffey's Grotesquely Swollen Jaw Posted: August 07, 2021 at 12:27 PM (#6033378)
Damn, from Shams: "Australia’s Aron Baynes was missing from the Boomers’ medal podium in Tokyo. Tough news: Sources say Baynes remains in the hospital with severe nerve damage in his neck, an injury more significant than initially diagnosed, and could miss the entire 2021-22 season."
   4113. kubiwan Posted: August 07, 2021 at 02:25 PM (#6033384)
Jrue is so good


Is he? Every time I watch him I see lots of good stuff....and lots of non-so-good stuff (last night I swear I said something like "Didn't need that shot then Jrue"). I assume things come out positive in the end, but man, is it ever a full experience!
   4114. Paul D(uda) Posted: August 07, 2021 at 02:46 PM (#6033387)
The Lowry and Ball deals are being investigated for tampering. Seems silly to me to bother. Is the unwritten rule don't be too blatant about it? That also seems silly
   4115. rr: cosmopolitan elite Posted: August 07, 2021 at 02:49 PM (#6033388)
Durant didn't need this for his legacy, and he said when J Will was making up stories about him he doesn't talk like that, but his legacy is god damn secure.


Among the Dr. Wonkensteins on this thread and guys who pay money to get the cool data on Syngery and BBI, sure. But Moses's tags for this iteration of the NeverEnding Thread include the words "narrative" and "redemption." Durant still has not won a title with a team that was "his", he is seven years removed from his one MVP award, and now another freak-of-nature do-everything front court player who is five years younger than Durant is has two MVPs and just lead his team to a title by dropping 50 in the closeout game. Durant also is not generally seen as being as good LeBron James is, I don't think.

I remember on the night that the Lakers wrapped up the 2020 Bubble title, James said, "I want my god damn respect." Seems silly, right? But to these guys, or at least some of them, it seems like it isn't. Just last week, James put up a Tweet basically calling out the Twitterati Commentariat for bagging on how ancient the Lakers roster is.

We are now 30 years out from The Dream Team, and with the Olympics becoming more "routine" for NBA players, we get more top guys saying no, and of course, now some of the best guys aren't from the US. So the Tokyo team was, really, Durant's team. If he can lead Brooklyn to next year's title, especially if it involves beating some combination of Antetokounmpo/James/Leonard, then I think the perception of his legacy among the non-wonk media and fans will change quite a bit.
   4116. rr: cosmopolitan elite Posted: August 07, 2021 at 02:57 PM (#6033389)
Jrue is so good


Holiday is a good defensive player who sometimes has good games on O, and he looks good if his team has an out-of-this world frontcourt player who can create his own shot and deliver buckets when the team has to have them. Holiday, interestingly, experienced that in the NBA Playoffs and the Olympics in the same year, and now has a ring and a Gold Medal, and power to him. But he is pretty much the same guy who was on lottery teams in New Orleans. His 3P and TS spiked in Milwaukee; maybe he can hold that with Middleton and Antetokounmpo around.

Middleton and Holiday are the second pair of teammates to win the NBA Title and Olympic Gold in the same year, joining Jordan and Pippen, who did it in 1992.
   4117. tshipman Posted: August 07, 2021 at 03:33 PM (#6033393)
We are now 30 years out from The Dream Team, and with the Olympics becoming more "routine" for NBA players, we get more top guys saying no, and of course, now some of the best guys aren't from the US. So the Tokyo team was, really, Durant's team. If he can lead Brooklyn to next year's title, especially if it involves beating some combination of Antetokounmpo/James/Leonard, then I think the perception of his legacy among the non-wonk media and fans will change quite a bit.



I dunno ... even if Durant wins next year, there's a lot of narrative around how he only plays on super teams.

Edit: I think Durant will be a player whose evaluation and prestige goes up after retirement. More like Scottie Pippen than Michael Jordan.

Edit2: Jerry West is an even better comp, after thinking for a second.
   4118. 57i66135 is available to babysit, for a price Posted: August 07, 2021 at 04:37 PM (#6033397)
there are some players whose resumes outshine their objective impact on the game (kobe, duncan, malone, russell), and there are others whose resumes fall short of their impact (nash, stockton, pippen, garnett, okafor, malone, david robinson, cp3).


durant is clearly in that 2nd group. for him to raise himself above that group, he'll have to go nuclear over the next 5 years, above and beyond what he's already done.
   4119. Der-K's emotional investment is way up Posted: August 07, 2021 at 05:17 PM (#6033399)
For years, Jrue has featured heavily on lists of the “most underrated players” in the league. I think it’s now maybe gone the other way, given his recent team success and highlight moments, but he’s obviously an excellent player (and also a type of player I gravitate toward - high variance plus defenders who can play at either the one or two depending on the system). I think he’s actually past his prime defensively and he can shoot you out of a game but - still - he gives you so, so much,
   4120. Der-K's emotional investment is way up Posted: August 07, 2021 at 05:18 PM (#6033400)
Wonder what penalties might be levied with the Ball and Lowry deals..
   4121. rr: cosmopolitan elite Posted: August 07, 2021 at 05:22 PM (#6033401)
BTW D-K, since you seem like a Holiday fan: I know a guy who is the dad of a recent UCLA player (can't give name obviously). This guy is like me a big Lakers fan, but he was happy about the Bucks, largely because of Holiday. He said that Holiday is a super nice guy who has helped out his son quite a bit.
   4122. Der-K's emotional investment is way up Posted: August 07, 2021 at 06:31 PM (#6033404)
Yeah - I like him as a player and, from everything I’ve heard, as a person. Nice to add stuff to the list!
   4123. smileyy Posted: August 07, 2021 at 11:07 PM (#6033430)
Brittney Griner is very tall and doing a good job keeping the ball above a very short and scrappy Japanese team.
   4124. 57i66135 is available to babysit, for a price Posted: August 08, 2021 at 01:20 PM (#6033447)
The Lowry and Ball deals are being investigated for tampering. Seems silly to me to bother. Is the unwritten rule don't be too blatant about it? That also seems silly
people around the league still begrudge MIA for the way "the decision" went down, and they do not like the way MIA continues to operate so brazenly in the months (and years) before a given player hits free agency. there were rumors around oladipo (when he was in IND and HOU) and jimmy butler (when he was in MIN) wanting to be in MIA, and it depressed their trade value. this is not good for most teams around the league, but because this clearly works for MIA, they are going to keep doing it until they are given reason not to.

i don't what the allegations w/r/t lowry are, but if the league can find a pretense they can use to slow MIA down, alot of people would love to see it.
   4125. Fourth True Outcome Posted: August 08, 2021 at 02:00 PM (#6033450)
I agree with STIGGLES about it being partially punitive to Miami for flouting tampering rules frequently and fairly brazenly; the league also seems to be fairly serious about a policing tampering, albeit within a pretty limited scope. Between these and the Bogdanovic situation for the Bucks last year it must be that sign-and-trades, requiring coordination of two teams, are some combination of more blatant when they're executed 90 seconds into free agency, as S&Ts; have many more moving parts than pure FA signings, and also easier to police because they involved more communication and more official team communication. I think we're seeing the unwritten rule shift from "don't be too blatant about it" to something more like "don't do it in a traceable way". There is likely some pressure from some teams who feel they aren't getting a fair chance on the league, and probably also some PR desire to reduce the assumption that tampering is rampant since The Decision. (Don't know that the league cares about the tampering itself, necessarily, but bet they'd love to shift the public perception a bit.)
   4126. JJ1986 Posted: August 08, 2021 at 03:33 PM (#6033455)
100% chance the Mavericks complained to the league office about the Lowry deal.
   4127. asinwreck Posted: August 08, 2021 at 04:43 PM (#6033459)
I have heard great things about all of the Holiday siblings.

Regarding the tampering investigations, Bobby Marks seems to think they will take a couple of weeks. We should know soon what the consequences are.

A wrinkle worth paying attention to is the Bulls and Pelicans are apparently exploring a sign-and-trade of Markkanen that could be folded into the Ball deal. Obviously, that doesn't happen if the Ball/Temple/Sato trade is voided, and I don't know if the two parties continuing to deal at all shapes how the league views that transaction or the appropriate level of punishment.
   4128. tshipman Posted: August 08, 2021 at 04:53 PM (#6033460)
100% chance the Mavericks complained to the league office about the Lowry deal.


I think it's the Bucks. PJ Tucker is on the Heat because they could operate as an above the cap team by exercising the team option on Dragic, knowing that they were going to work the sign and trade. That allowed them to sign Tucker to the taxpayer MLE.

Plus the Bucks are salty about Bogdanovic last year.
   4129. spivey 2 Posted: August 08, 2021 at 05:00 PM (#6033461)
Regarding Jrue commentary on me saying "he's so good".

I agree with most of the comments. Perhaps more specifically, he is the best guard defender in the NBA, and probably can extend that out and say he's one of the best wing and multiple-position defenders in the NBA. That's hugely valuable for a team like Team USA that really needed that specific skillset. He does make iffy offensive decisions when he has the ball. He should not be the primary ball handler on this team, and I think that's more of a scheme thing and goes back to the earlier point that the rest of their guards were terrible in the Gold Medal game. If Dame is playing like he's capable, you have Jrue in the corner and frankly not involved in the offense for much besides spacing and cuts, which he's pretty good at. Lavine and Booker were very poor in that game as well, and aren't particularly good distributors anyways.
   4130. Willard Baseball Posted: August 08, 2021 at 05:11 PM (#6033462)
Agreed Spivey. Jrue is great at what he does well. His poor finishing and playmaking can be covered up when he is a 3rd or 4th option, which he is in Milwaukee.

I think he is the best defender in the NBA amongst 1/2/3 positions.
   4131. 57i66135 is available to babysit, for a price Posted: August 08, 2021 at 05:19 PM (#6033465)
I think he is the best defender in the NBA amongst 1/2/3 positions who can reliably shoot 50+% from the FT line
FTFY


i did not come here to bury jrue, so i will just quietly point out that he played alongside two of the NBA's better wing defenders, which means he was never the primary defender of bigger wings like lebron, durant, tatoom, giannis, kawhi, george, okafor, doncic, middleton, butler, siakam, brown, ingram.
   4132. Willard Baseball Posted: August 08, 2021 at 06:58 PM (#6033475)
Simmons is a better defender, but offensively, he is a center. So you have to play 4 shooters around him.

Playing Simmons means you have to have someone like Redick on the court. Playing Jrue means you have a Brook Lopez.
   4133. aberg Posted: August 09, 2021 at 01:19 PM (#6033536)
I went to the Crawsover (Jamal Crawford's summer league) and saw the first half of the game where IT scored 81. He actually took his time working his way into the game. He was late getting to the gym and they delayed the start for him. I think he took 3 jumpers after he got his shoes on before they tipped off, then went supernova. Pretty fun to watch. From what I've heard, he has an offer from Boston to come back this year.

Also got to see a few other notable college players. Paolo Banchero was top of that list. He's so big and physically mature for an incoming freshman. He plays a little like Giannis- huge, fast, athletic, coordinated, smooth, busted jumper. His shot is incredibly flat. Someone will have to fix that for him to get close to his potential.

Marjon Beauchamp has been considered an NBA prospect and he looked like just a guy among some low D1 players and semi-pro types.
   4134. Der-K's emotional investment is way up Posted: August 09, 2021 at 02:32 PM (#6033544)
i don't think holiday is the best 1-3 defender in the league, though he is up there - might be a little of recency bias going on with some (only some) of the praise he's gotten of late
(i'm not sure who is offhand - sort of situationally dependent. probably simmons. dunn maybe.)
   4135. 57i66135 is available to babysit, for a price Posted: August 09, 2021 at 03:12 PM (#6033550)
i don't think holiday is the best 1-3 defender in the league, though he is up there - might be a little of recency bias going on with some (only some) of the praise he's gotten of late
(i'm not sure who is offhand - sort of situationally dependent. probably simmons. dunn maybe.)

there are a couple of skillsets that are necessary for someone to be in the conversation:

1: you need to guard quick wiggly jumpshooters like trae, curry and lillard.

2: you need to bang with larger, physical ballhandlers like doncic, lebron and kawhi.

3: you need the discipline and experience to not recklessly foul scourges like harden and trae.

4: you need to be a menace away from the play, so opponents can't just put your mark in a corner and play on the other side of the floor.



only ben simmons is going to be perfect at all of those things. everyone else is going to give something away somewhere.
   4136. Der-K's emotional investment is way up Posted: August 09, 2021 at 03:34 PM (#6033551)
simmons has an edge versus bigger guys, other people versus smaller guys. (none of them are perfect.)
it's not like jrue hasn't the strength to guard up.
discipline is something on my mind, re dunn - who gambles a bit more than you'd like in some scenarios
   4137. Der-K's emotional investment is way up Posted: August 09, 2021 at 03:39 PM (#6033553)
kemba buyout terms are out... gave up a little less than i expected - 20m (9.78 this year, 10.22 the next)
   4138. jmurph Posted: August 09, 2021 at 03:44 PM (#6033555)
kemba buyout terms are out! gave up a little less than i expected - 20m (9.78 this year, 10.22 the next)

Yeah this again makes me think the league is being too loose with OKC at the moment. This is ########.
   4139. tshipman Posted: August 09, 2021 at 04:11 PM (#6033557)
So if I read that correctly, Kemba gave up about 2 million per year to get out of OKC.
   4140. Hombre Brotani Posted: August 09, 2021 at 05:03 PM (#6033565)
Great for OKC, great for Kemba. Contracts don't mean ####.
   4141. jmurph Posted: August 09, 2021 at 05:10 PM (#6033566)
"Take less money in a buyout or you'll be forced to play for our team that has zero interest in winning" is, I think, not the kind of implicit message the league should be excited about teams sending.
   4142. spivey 2 Posted: August 09, 2021 at 05:16 PM (#6033567)
My concern is the flipside.

Which is that OKC paid him basically 75% of his 2 year, max salary to not play for them, despite him being clearly their second best player. I mean, the salary floor means they're paying that money anyways. But it + the shutting down of their non-scrubs for a LOT of last year does feel much more egregious than anything that happened during the process.
   4143. tshipman Posted: August 09, 2021 at 05:16 PM (#6033568)
I think it's only really problematic when combined with the Horford situation this year.

Kemba gave up about 20 million, which significantly changed the value proposition for how much OKC was paid to take on his contract. Saying "take less money or you'll be forced to play for our team that isn't winning" is one thing, but "take less money or you'll be forced to not play" is another.

Edit: cokes to others
   4144. Der-K's emotional investment is way up Posted: August 09, 2021 at 07:35 PM (#6033596)
I am not with the crowd here.

Kemba is getting, I think, 17-19m of that back to play for New York - so he’s really only giving up 1-3m to play for a better team in his hometown. Meanwhile, OKC isn’t short on players at his spot. Lastly, time has value - Walker doesn’t have to wait for a mid year trade, the Thunder (who will want to play SGA and Giddey and Dort and…) won’t have to short younger guys on PT, … this is how this should work.

If anything I think OKC could have extracted more value by trading him later.
   4145. asinwreck Posted: August 09, 2021 at 09:24 PM (#6033606)
What the Thunder is doing should result in relegation to the G-league.
   4146. Slivers of Maranville descends into chaos (SdeB) Posted: August 09, 2021 at 11:08 PM (#6033617)
They have enough draft picks that they will be able to set up their own G-League.
   4147. Mellow Mouse, Benevolent Space Tyrant Posted: August 10, 2021 at 08:15 AM (#6033634)
On one hand, having a team around filling the role that OKC currently fills does act as a lubricant for deals. It helps facilitate trades when there are teams with different short-term and long-term goals. So off the court, they fill a useful role.

The problem is regarding the on the court product. Their goals are so far out of alignment that the basketball is terrible, and deliberately so. They keep much quieter about it than the process did, which makes plausible deniability easier, but it is kind of ugly.

The part that makes it difficult is tearing it down and starting over is a totally legitimate strategy. When it is too obvious though, when a team doesn't stop at just accumulating future assets at the expense of the present but seems to be actively sabotaging itself in real-time, then it seems to cross a line. But that line is fuzzy. We know it when we see it, perhaps, but defining the parameters is difficult.

I am glad it is not my problem.
   4148. jmurph Posted: August 10, 2021 at 09:16 AM (#6033642)
Which is that OKC paid him basically 75% of his 2 year, max salary to not play for them, despite him being clearly their second best player. I mean, the salary floor means they're paying that money anyways. But it + the shutting down of their non-scrubs for a LOT of last year does feel much more egregious than anything that happened during the process.

Oh yeah I also agree with this (and tship) and think I said as much last week or so. The Horford thing was very bad.
   4149. Der-K's emotional investment is way up Posted: August 10, 2021 at 11:27 AM (#6033655)
I do think the thing where you don't play good, healthy players on your team for sustained stretches (like Horford last year) is bad, to be clear.
   4150. aberg Posted: August 10, 2021 at 12:04 PM (#6033659)
The part that makes it difficult is tearing it down and starting over is a totally legitimate strategy. When it is too obvious though, when a team doesn't stop at just accumulating future assets at the expense of the present but seems to be actively sabotaging itself in real-time, then it seems to cross a line. But that line is fuzzy. We know it when we see it, perhaps, but defining the parameters is difficult.


I guess I would say that tearing it down and starting over isn't the problem, it's the lag between the tear down and starting over. If you spend multiple years intentionally tanking and doing things like holding young, developing players out of games, that makes the league less entertaining.
   4151. asinwreck Posted: August 10, 2021 at 12:13 PM (#6033660)
The larger context of the Thunder has less to do with Sam Presti than with ownership. This was the organization that did not want to hit the luxury tax to keep the young core of Durant, Westbrook, and Harden intact. Clay Bennett and his partners (like the late disgraced Aubrey McClendon) have acted like grifters since the day they entered into an agreement with Howard Schultz to keep the Sonics in Seattle. Their current contempt for competitive basketball is bad enough, but their past behavior indicates that if they somehow do develop a competitive core, they won't keep it together.
   4152. . . . . . . Posted: August 10, 2021 at 03:48 PM (#6033681)
The larger context of the Thunder has less to do with Sam Presti than with ownership. This was the organization that did not want to hit the luxury tax to keep the young core of Durant, Westbrook, and Harden intact. Clay Bennett and his partners (like the late disgraced Aubrey McClendon) have acted like grifters since the day they entered into an agreement with Howard Schultz to keep the Sonics in Seattle. Their current contempt for competitive basketball is bad enough, but their past behavior indicates that if they somehow do develop a competitive core, they won't keep it together.


Maybe this triggered me since Aubrey was a client, but this is mostly (verging on entirely) untrue. This ownership group - both through buying and bringing the Thunder to OKC and through their other interests and philantropy - have sowed an absolute ####-ton of money into OKC. Aubrey in particular was generous to a fault and spent money all over OKC. Maybe you remember the distant past of, like 20 years ago, when OKC was a poor stepchild to Tulsa?

If this ownership group were a bunch of grifters, they wouldn't have found a way to get a ####### NBA BASKETBALL TEAM to a small flyover city like OKC. Trust me, there was a hell of a lot more money to be made in owning a team in a dozen other markets. And the Gaylords are rich, but they're not Dolan rich or Larry Ellison rich. I guess it makes you a "grifter" to not want to light money on fire.
   4153. Hombre Brotani Posted: August 10, 2021 at 04:12 PM (#6033689)
If this ownership group were a bunch of grifters, they wouldn't have found a way to get a ####### NBA BASKETBALL TEAM to a small flyover city like OKC.
Let's not make it like Oklahoma City and the state of Oklahoma didn't throw gobs and gobs of money at the ownership group that bought the Sonics to move out there, in the form of stadium renovations, new practice facilities, and a list of tax breaks longer than Kevin Durant's arms. Bennett, McClendon, etc., might be heroes in Oklahoma, but don't expect anyone else to be in love with them.
   4154. tshipman Posted: August 10, 2021 at 04:14 PM (#6033691)
I would say the federal indictment that led to McClendon's suicide is more of an indication of grifting than not paying the luxury tax, but you know, potato, potato.
   4155. . . . . . . Posted: August 10, 2021 at 04:25 PM (#6033694)
I would say the federal indictment that led to McClendon's suicide is more of an indication of grifting than not paying the luxury tax, but you know, potato, potato.


Even if the allegations were true (and they were not; and to the extent they were true, Aubrey was being chased for standard practices in the industry that everyone else did, solely because he was the most visible figurehead/scapegoat), Aubrey died without a pot to piss in. Almost every penny he made, he invested back into the city.

Let's not make it like Oklahoma City and the state of Oklahoma didn't throw gobs and gobs of money at the ownership group that bought the Sonics to move out there, in the form of stadium renovations, new practice facilities, and a list of tax breaks longer than Kevin Durant's arms. Bennett, McClendon, etc., might be heroes in Oklahoma, but don't expect anyone else to be in love with them.


Do you think other cities wouldn't have thrown money at them? Like OKC was the only city in the 2000s looking to upgrade to the big time by becoming a "major league city"? And whose businesses do you think threw off the high-paying jobs and economic activity that gave OKC the ability to compete with much larger, richer cities in attracting a team?
   4156. Hombre Brotani Posted: August 10, 2021 at 04:42 PM (#6033699)
Do you think other cities wouldn't have thrown money at them?
Isn't that exactly the reason why the Schultz ownership group sold the team, because Seattle and the state of Washington weren't giving them the money they wanted? I get that Bennett and McClendon were generous to their communities, and that's great, but a different community lost their team because they weren't willing to throw gobs of money at those guys.

Even if the allegations were true (and they were not; and to the extent they were true, Aubrey was being chased for standard practices in the industry that everyone else did, solely because he was the most visible figurehead/scapegoat)
This is a weird way of saying "the allegations were true."
   4157. aberg Posted: August 10, 2021 at 04:56 PM (#6033701)
Isn't that exactly the reason why the Schultz ownership group sold the team, because Seattle and the state of Washington weren't giving them the money they wanted? I get that Bennett and McClendon were generous to their communities, and that's great, but a different community lost their team because they weren't willing to throw gobs of money at those guys.


There were years of litigation on these subject in Seattle. The short version is that Bennett and McClendon agreed to make their very best effort to keep the team in Seattle upon purchasing it. Despite very strong evidence that they breached that part of the agreement, the determination was that no court order would bring the franchise back to Seattle, so any judicial action would be fruitless. That was the end of the lawsuit. They were exonerated in the same way Bill Cosby was exonerated.
   4158. tshipman Posted: August 10, 2021 at 05:04 PM (#6033704)
Schadenfreude is a hell of a drug:

[@Schultz_Report] #Celtics have offered Dennis Schroder a one-year deal - at the taxpayer $5.9M MLE - per league sources. The current hold up for Schroder is twofold: He wants the full MLE - which is $9.5M - and also seeks a second-year player option. Boston doesn’t want to be hard-capped.

   4159. DCA Posted: August 10, 2021 at 05:06 PM (#6033705)
This was the organization that did not want to hit the luxury tax to keep the young core of Durant, Westbrook, and Harden intact

I don't think this is quite fair. They didn't want to pay a core of Durant, Westbrook, Harden, and Ibaka. And the guy they decided was the expendible piece was Harden. And that seemed to me to be a fair assessment at the time. Harden didn't become a star until he was traded to Houston, and his skill set overlapped with Westbrook and Durant who were already stars.
   4160. kubiwan Posted: August 10, 2021 at 06:14 PM (#6033714)
their past behavior indicates that if they somehow do develop a competitive core, they won't keep it together.


Well, so far they have came up with one competitive core….and got a run of 11 straight winning seasons (would be 11 straight playoff appearances too excep they lost a tiebreaker one year), so I can’t help but conclude the exact opposite.
   4161. . . . . . . Posted: August 10, 2021 at 06:16 PM (#6033715)
This is a weird way of saying "the allegations were true."


No, it's a way of saying that Aubrey was indicted for the equivalent of going 8mph over the speed limit on an interstate highway. He hadn't sped, but even if he had, it would've been bullshit to be federally indicted for it.
   4162. Harlond Posted: August 10, 2021 at 06:36 PM (#6033719)
OK, but rich people are exactly who federal prosecutorial forces should be aimed at. That's true irrespective of whether less rich people are doing it and irrespective of whether the offense is, in some perspective, minor.
   4163. . . . . . . Posted: August 10, 2021 at 07:00 PM (#6033722)
OK, but rich people are exactly who federal prosecutorial forces should be aimed at. That's true irrespective of whether less rich people are doing it and irrespective of whether the offense is, in some perspective, minor.


Whether you have money or not should have nothing to do with whether you are indicted, but federal prosecutors like perfect records and don't like picking on opposing counsel their own size.

To bring it back to basketball, it's like a blue-blood program scheduling a shitty out of conference schedule.
   4164. Der-K's emotional investment is way up Posted: August 10, 2021 at 07:05 PM (#6033724)
Schröder to BOS for 1/5.9 (mle)
   4165. SteveF Posted: August 10, 2021 at 07:25 PM (#6033727)
He might be usefullish off the bench where you don't mind the relatively high usage on questionable efficiency.
   4166. Der-K's emotional investment is way up Posted: August 10, 2021 at 07:37 PM (#6033732)
He’s one of my least favorite players in the league so I’m feeling a bit of … Dennis … schadenfreude? Needs work.
   4167. spivey 2 Posted: August 10, 2021 at 07:38 PM (#6033734)
Having a guard who can beat their guy off the dribble and get the defense in rotation has value. I think he has some value, though it's probably about at this price point.
   4168. jmurph Posted: August 10, 2021 at 08:03 PM (#6033737)
Yeah the signing makes sense, good value, etc., but I also don’t enjoy him as a player and I don’t get the sense he’s a particularly beloved teammate either?
   4169. Hombre Brotani Posted: August 10, 2021 at 08:49 PM (#6033742)
Having a guard who can beat their guy off the dribble and get the defense in rotation has value. I think he has some value, though it's probably about at this price point.
The market isn't wrong about Schröder's value, but Boston really could use that guy. And to think, the Lakers offered him four more years and $84 million back in April, and he said no.
   4170. PJ Martinez Posted: August 10, 2021 at 08:58 PM (#6033746)
My feelings exactly:
Schroder is a poor shooter and not a good defender and everyone says he’s a jerk and… he signed for what? Under $6M? For one year?

Oh ok cool cool cool welcome to Boston Dennis!
Also, agreed with 4169 that Boston could potentially use a guy like him (i.e., scoring off the bench), so he should have a role to fill. All the reporting is that the FO pitched this to him as a backup role.
   4171. jmurph Posted: August 10, 2021 at 09:33 PM (#6033754)
Yeah that Lakers offer is one of the biggest market misreads on both sides that I can ever remember.
   4172. 57i66135 is available to babysit, for a price Posted: August 10, 2021 at 09:48 PM (#6033760)
Yeah that Lakers offer is one of the biggest market misreads on both sides that I can ever remember.
didn't dallas offer nerlens noel 60-ish million before non-tendering him 4 months later?
   4173. Mike A Posted: August 10, 2021 at 10:09 PM (#6033764)
He’s one of my least favorite players in the league so I’m feeling a bit of … Dennis … schadenfreude? Needs work.

I don't know, I like the German tie-in.

The rumor out of ATL was Schroder wasn't particularly loved by his teammates and coaches. I'm a little surprised Dwight Howard didn't crush him like a grape at some point.

And lest I feel too badly for him 'giving up' 78 million, Schroder has made 75 million playing basketball, so he's probably still OK unless he went on the MC Hammer financial plan.
   4174. Der-K's emotional investment is way up Posted: August 10, 2021 at 10:58 PM (#6033770)
I landed on Schrödenfreude.

Mike A - oh pretty much. (And my personal dislike of him stems from watching him as a Hawk.) His not getting the covid vaccine didn’t help him with me either.
—-
Jalen Green looks like a future all-star. You should never read too much into summer league, but I think he’ll be the best player from this class. Wish he released his shot higher, though.
   4175. Harlond Posted: August 10, 2021 at 11:25 PM (#6033773)
Whether you have money or not should have nothing to do with whether you are indicted, but federal prosecutors like perfect records and don't like picking on opposing counsel their own size.
I could not disagree with you more strongly. Your second point explains why your first point is wrong. Like it or not, prosecutors have limited resources and discretion on how to use them. If, for the reason you describe, they go after the people who can't fight back, the rich people understand they can get away with anything. Which is pretty much exactly what happens in this country. Going after rich people has a deterrent effect down the line that going after poor people can never have. Not only that, having money should be an aggravating factor in criminal conduct--someone who has had all the advantages has less excuse to commit crimes, whereas someone who has had few advantages has more excuse. Which makes it perfectly appropriate--and indeed morally preferable--to treat wealth as a good reason to prosecute. Sadly, we've treated wealth as a mitigating factor and poverty as an aggravating factor for eons. That's just institutionalized injustice.
   4176. Your favorite TFTIO, me! Posted: August 10, 2021 at 11:38 PM (#6033775)
My personal feelings aside, I’d like to ask that we put a lid on the politics, at least until the Wolves trade for some deeply unsuitable power forward.
   4177. rr: cosmopolitan elite Posted: August 10, 2021 at 11:46 PM (#6033780)
Schroder in Boston works for shipman. LakerHonks who dealt with Schroder said they expect his agent told him to take 4/84.
   4178. rr: cosmopolitan elite Posted: August 10, 2021 at 11:46 PM (#6033781)
Also, I think it was a pretty good move by Stevens.
   4179. jmurph Posted: August 11, 2021 at 09:47 AM (#6033801)
didn't dallas offer nerlens noel 60-ish million before non-tendering him 4 months later?

Wow, I don't remember that, but apparently he did:
In the summer of 2017, Noel shockingly turned down a four-year, $70 million contract to stay in Dallas. He took a gamble on himself and signed a $4.1 million qualifying offer that would make him a free agent the following summer where he felt he could earn more money.

Alright, any other candidates to top Schroder?
   4180. Der-K's emotional investment is way up Posted: August 11, 2021 at 12:13 PM (#6033822)
kemba signed with nyk today - deal is 2/18, meaning that he gave up 2 mil over 2 years on his buyout.
   4181. tshipman Posted: August 11, 2021 at 12:19 PM (#6033823)
Schroder in Boston works for shipman


Yes. I can fully sports hate him now.

Also, I think it was a pretty good move by Stevens.


Sure, whatever.
   4182. Fourth True Outcome Posted: August 11, 2021 at 12:30 PM (#6033827)
Alright, any other candidates to top Schroder?

The only other obvious one to my mind is Oladipo. He's had injury issues, but turned down 25m/year from Houston and Indiana, I believe. This was after some of his injuries, so it seems at least as imprudent as Noel and Schroeder, if differently so.

On the Schroeder front, I was against the Cs signing him because he's inefficient on the court and seems, at least from what is knowable publicly, to be arrogant and a mediocre teammate. But for one year at the MLE with what seems to be a solid understanding that he'll be coming off the bench, sure, why not. A nice piece of work from Stevens, as others noted, to be patient and snag a decent player at a bargain. If he's too much of a jackass they can always cut bait for only a little money.
   4183. tshipman Posted: August 11, 2021 at 12:33 PM (#6033828)
If he's too much of a jackass they can always cut bait for only a little money.


I feel like teams never do this, though.

Like, for instance, the Lakers didn't do this last year despite Schroder being a gigantic #######.
   4184. DCA Posted: August 11, 2021 at 01:51 PM (#6033847)
Based on this article, it looks like Shabazz Muhammad is the biggest loser.

Oladipo may have given up more dollars, but he's already made his first $100 million, and he's probably not on his last contract. Shabazz turned down what ended up being 4x his actual career earnings.
   4185. Mellow Mouse, Benevolent Space Tyrant Posted: August 11, 2021 at 03:31 PM (#6033879)
I am just glad wolves are so well represented.
   4186. SteveF Posted: August 11, 2021 at 04:09 PM (#6033882)
Does anyone know whom Udonis Haslem witnessed Pat Riley murder?
   4187. aberg Posted: August 11, 2021 at 04:11 PM (#6033883)
Does anyone know whom Udonis Haslem witnessed Pat Riley murder?


He knows where SVG's body is buried.
   4188. asinwreck Posted: August 11, 2021 at 04:30 PM (#6033887)
I look forward to Haslem signing a similar contract in 2027.
   4189. rr: cosmopolitan elite Posted: August 11, 2021 at 06:07 PM (#6033900)
The Athletic
@TheAthletic
· 34m
J.R. Smith is enrolling at North Carolina A&T State and hopes to join their collegiate golf team, pending NCAA eligibility.

Smith — who went to the NBA straight from HS — will pursue a degree in liberal studies.

---
This is cool. Two notes:

1. It is just North Carolina A&T
2. No clocks in golf should work well for Smith.
   4190. aberg Posted: August 11, 2021 at 07:16 PM (#6033916)
This story about Jason Kidd is maybe the funniest thing I have read this year.
   4191. Fourth True Outcome Posted: August 11, 2021 at 10:17 PM (#6033967)
Among other things, those Kidd stories go a ways towards explaining the strangeness of Larry Sanders' NBA exit. Yeesh.
   4192. Athletic Supporter is USDA certified lean Posted: August 12, 2021 at 03:14 AM (#6033988)
The Kidd story is funny, but as this genre goes, nothing will ever top the Kawhi apple story, which I am delighted to have an excuse to repost in the thread.
   4193. spivey 2 Posted: August 12, 2021 at 09:03 AM (#6034002)
The 4190 and 4192 stories are funny, but are clearly fake.

That great thing with Kidd is there are plenty of bizarre, awful coaching stories about him that are real. It's hard for me to imagine that stuff goes over well anywhere at the pro level. Maybe at the college level, you could argue this sort of nonsense would fly, though I'd argue a lot of it is flatout bullying that isn't acceptable there either.

Anyways, I predict Luka gets tired with this #### within the first year and then Kidd's gone.
   4194. jmurph Posted: August 12, 2021 at 10:54 AM (#6034035)
Does anyone know whom Udonis Haslem witnessed Pat Riley murder?

He made $1.6 million last year. Google says that's about in line with the 4 year, $6.5 million salary Lue got in Cleveland as an assistant before taking over as the head guy. Various articles call that the highest assistant salary ever before Kidd reportedly topped it in LA.

So I guess what I'm asking is why don't they just make him an assistant? He could potentially make more and also not count against the cap or take up a roster spot? I understand that roster spot isn't important on the court to the Heat, but those end of the bench guys are often useful as trade throw-ins/salary balancing, and they're (obviously!) not going to use Haslem in such a deal.

It's been confusing for like 5 years at this point, and gets more so each year.
   4195. rr: cosmopolitan elite Posted: August 12, 2021 at 11:29 AM (#6034040)
Joe Ingles: Superdad

SALT LAKE CITY, Utah – Utah Jazz guard/forward Joe Ingles is honoring his daughter’s request to hang their medals together in their home.

Joe Ingles and Australia won their first ever Olympic medal in men’s basketball after winning the bronze in the 2020 Tokyo Summer Games. When he got home from Tokyo, his daughter had one simple request that Ingles shared on Instagram.

“Milla told me after we won Bronze that we have the same medals now…,” Ingles posted. “Hers being a participation for soccer season. Then also went on to say that they have to hang next to other so… Damn straight they hang next to each other now.


There is ofc a pic at the link.
   4196. aberg Posted: August 12, 2021 at 12:12 PM (#6034054)
The 4190 and 4192 stories are funny, but are clearly fake.


You shut your filthy mouth. Sometimes we all just have to agree to the lie for the greater good.
   4197. Slivers of Maranville descends into chaos (SdeB) Posted: August 12, 2021 at 12:48 PM (#6034068)
Joe Ingles and Australia won their first ever Olympic medal in men’s basketball after winning the bronze in the 2020 Tokyo Summer Games. When he got home from Tokyo, his daughter had one simple request that Ingles shared on Instagram.


Wait, we're still calling it that?
   4198. SteveF Posted: August 12, 2021 at 01:12 PM (#6034075)
The medals likely had already been made and stamped with 2020 on 'em.

Also, that's a pretty incredible looking participation medal. We got worse #### for winning leagues back in my day. (Uphill, both ways, through snow, without shoes, etc.)
   4199. Mellow Mouse, Benevolent Space Tyrant Posted: August 12, 2021 at 02:08 PM (#6034092)
Wait, we're still calling it that?


Didn't watch any Olympics, huh? It said 2020 everywhere. After a week or so of solid watching, I started believing it still was 2020 and accidentally signed a check (I know, I know) that way.
   4200. tshipman Posted: August 12, 2021 at 02:13 PM (#6034094)
I mean, were you so confused by the 2020 thing that you thought it was actually 1995?

***

Summer league stuff has been fun so far, unclear as always how much to take from it, but I'm feeling better about my opinions on Jalen Green and Sengun.
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