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Friday, May 21, 2021

NBA 2021 Playoffs+ thread

I estimate there are maybe 10-12 Primates left on this site, and they all post in the NBA thread.

Moses Taylor hashes out the rumpus Posted: May 21, 2021 at 01:07 PM | 4930 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
  Tags: clutch, narratives, nba, off topic, redemption

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   4501. tshipman Posted: September 22, 2021 at 12:24 PM (#6040959)
This is ####### hilarious:

Williamson’s relationship with Griffin had also begun to sour. Although they communicate infrequently now, Griffin tried hard in Williamson’s rookie year to forge a bond. One example: During the Pelicans’ bubble stay, Griffin asked to meet with Williamson and played the piano for him.



There's a bunch of other stuff. They don't even mention how good Griff is on podcasts, though.
   4502. GregD Posted: September 22, 2021 at 12:57 PM (#6040971)
The SF Chronicle suggested this is what the Warriors believe (were told?) they'd need to put in a deal for Simmons. If accurate, it's clear why no deal is being made.

To make a deal work amid salary-cap restraints, the Warriors would have to part with Andrew Wiggins or Draymond Green and another player. The 76ers also are asking for a front-line player to be added to the deal, along with four or five first-round picks.

   4503. jmurph Posted: September 22, 2021 at 01:40 PM (#6040979)
Ultimately I guess there's no real consequences for being an unprofessional ####### in this business, there's a fixed number of teams that the other teams have to deal with whether they like it or not. But this can't be helpful.
   4504. 57i66135 is available to babysit, for a price Posted: September 22, 2021 at 02:36 PM (#6040994)
Sarah K. Spencer @sarah_k_spence
Here's a look at the Hawks training camp roster. Team just officially announced they've signed Johnny Hamilton, A.J. Lawson, Timothe Luwawu-Cabarrot and Jahlil Okafor: pic.twitter.com/OaQE881TXf
   4505. Your favorite TFTIO, me! Posted: September 22, 2021 at 03:15 PM (#6041013)

Just in: The Minnesota Timberwolves are parting ways with president of basketball operations Gersson Rosas, sources tell me and
@JonKrawczynski

wat
   4506. Mellow Mouse, Benevolent Space Tyrant Posted: September 22, 2021 at 03:23 PM (#6041019)
Wait, what?

Next year, sure. But this year and now? There is something else, some back story.
   4507. Moses Taylor hashes out the rumpus Posted: September 22, 2021 at 03:27 PM (#6041023)
Just in: The Minnesota Timberwolves are parting ways with president of basketball operations Gersson Rosas, sources tell me and
@JonKrawczynski


You mean the Timberwovles.
   4508. Your favorite TFTIO, me! Posted: September 22, 2021 at 03:35 PM (#6041027)
Gotta be something off court. Or else, AROD is just a huge Culver guy.
   4509. Der-K's emotional investment is way up Posted: September 22, 2021 at 03:35 PM (#6041028)
did not see that coming

wonder if this impacts the simmons discussions?

edit: kat weighed in on twitter with "wtf..."
--
don't like how the hawks are using camp. i like when teams bring in players whose g league rights aren't already controlled (often from the most recent class of undrafted free agents) and then you sign them to an exhibit 10 contract, cut them, and have thme spend a year in the minors while you figure out if they're worth a 2 way deal.
   4510. tshipman Posted: September 22, 2021 at 03:35 PM (#6041029)
I wonder if this is somehow related to the Simmons stuff.
   4511. 57i66135 is available to babysit, for a price Posted: September 22, 2021 at 03:38 PM (#6041030)
I wonder if this is somehow related to the Simmons stuff

based on what we've seen about the sixers' asking price, i can't imagine that rosas was the one pushing for a deal. so if this is happening because of ben simmons, it means that ownership is about to do something extraordinarily stupid. if that's the case, any wolfs fans around here might want to run out to get a tube of astroglide, because you're about to get rammed hard.
   4512. Der-K's emotional investment is way up Posted: September 22, 2021 at 03:40 PM (#6041031)
that's my naive guess as well?
   4513. Your favorite TFTIO, me! Posted: September 22, 2021 at 03:42 PM (#6041032)
oh god
   4514. Your favorite TFTIO, me! Posted: September 22, 2021 at 03:43 PM (#6041033)
Enjoy Anthony Edwards, 57i66135.
   4515. 57i66135 is available to babysit, for a price Posted: September 22, 2021 at 03:47 PM (#6041038)
Dane Moore @DaneMooreNBA
For quite some time now there has been dissension in the Timberwolves front office and organization, sources say. Moving on from Gersson Rosas is not an out of the blue development. In a critical year, with new ownership, the Wolves decided to act now rather than delay.
Sean Highkin @highkin
A lot of the Timberwolves/Simmons stuff I had heard had stemmed from Gersson feeling pressure to make a big splash to impress new the new ownership group. Now he's gone. Will be interesting to see how this impacts the Simmons situation.
Adam Spolane @AdamSpolane
Kinda feels like A-Rod wanted Ben Simmons at any cost and Gersson disagreed
Bobby Marks @BobbyMarks42
In the 2 weeks, Gersson Rosas was allowed to make the Patrick Beverley trade, bring back Jarred Vanderbilt, Jordan McLaughlin and sign first-round pick Leandro Bolmaro. Now six days before training camp, Minnesota is looking for a new head of basketball operations.
Jake Fischer @JakeLFischer
In wake of Gersson Rosas' departure, word has circulated among league sources since Summer League that incoming Minnesota Timberwolves owners Marc Lore and Alex Rodriguez have communicated they are fond of Sixers general manager Elton Brand. A name to keep an eye on here.

Dane Moore @DaneMooreNBA
Gersson Rosas was terrific to work with as a media member. - Was transparent. Almost always available on or off the record - Came on my pod numerous times - Somehow found out I got laid off before I told my family, and called me that day - Treated you like a real person
   4516. Crosseyed and Painless Posted: September 22, 2021 at 03:53 PM (#6041042)
Maybe A-Rod is why the Sixers have been dragging this out.
   4517. Mellow Mouse, Benevolent Space Tyrant Posted: September 22, 2021 at 04:00 PM (#6041045)
Even the Timberwolves will not trade their future (Ant, KAT) for a dude who can't shoot. And there is a limit to how many draft picks they can trade, so ....


Anyway, who knows? It feels to me like a new owners want someone different and finally convinced Glenn to do it. But the timing is kind of terrible unless something we don't know triggered it.
   4518. JJ1986 Posted: September 22, 2021 at 04:02 PM (#6041047)
A-Rod obviously knows you always want to fire a GM in an odd numbered year.
   4519. Your favorite TFTIO, me! Posted: September 22, 2021 at 04:13 PM (#6041055)
What in the name of Fats Waller is going on here?
   4520. asinwreck Posted: September 22, 2021 at 04:30 PM (#6041067)
The David Kahn Redemption Tour begins now.
   4521. 57i66135 is available to babysit, for a price Posted: September 22, 2021 at 04:31 PM (#6041068)
Adrian Wojnarowski @wojespn
Minnesota Timberwolves EVP of Basketball Operations Sachin Gupta is expected to be promoted to the franchise's interim head of basketball operations, sources tell ESPN. The Timberwolves are planning to conduct a broader search to find a permanent replacement for Gersson Rosas.
Vincent Goodwill @VinceGoodwill
Talked to Karl-Anthony Towns last week and “stability” came up: he noted instability is all he’s known. Today continues that pic.twitter.com/K5xp95djbJ

Katy Winge @katywinge
Me: “what is it about the horses that is so soothing to you?” Jokić: "I like the smell of them. The best feeling ever is when you feed them. The sound of them eating in the stable is the best sound you can ever hear. It's just something that I think just a horseman can feel." pic.twitter.com/7SWebZEhW4

   4522. spivey 2 Posted: September 22, 2021 at 04:32 PM (#6041069)
Is Simmons any worse or more difficult to build a team around than KAT?

I'll see myself out. I actually think they could maybe fit ok next to each other.
   4523. Your favorite TFTIO, me! Posted: September 22, 2021 at 04:32 PM (#6041070)
Wolves gonna Wolve, I guess.
   4524. tshipman Posted: September 22, 2021 at 04:42 PM (#6041073)
I think the Wolves would actually benefit a lot from picking up Simmons, and I'd be willing to trade a lot to get him.
   4525. Tom Cervo, backup catcher Posted: September 22, 2021 at 04:45 PM (#6041076)
Simmons and KAT seem like an ideal pairing for both players, and getting out of DLo's contract also seems like it'd be nice for the Wolves. But without Edwards, I can see why Sixers would rather wait out Simmons and other teams unless Wolves would send a ton of picks.
   4526. aberg Posted: September 22, 2021 at 04:55 PM (#6041078)
WTF? I hate this team so much. I hope the Sonics come back soon.

The part that I really don't understand is what could possibly be such a deep rift at this point in the calendar that would warrant firing the POBO. It HAS to be something related to Simmons. Like, did Gerson object to offering DLo, Beasley, McDaniels and all available draft capital? Just seems like an extremely weird hill to die on.
   4527. aberg Posted: September 22, 2021 at 04:57 PM (#6041080)
A friend texted me that Jon K said on local MN radio that Rosas was a a-hole to everyone around him and the new owners were not ok with it. That surprises me and sounds a little overly simplistic (also at severe odds with how Rosas has acted in public). I suppose we'll hear more.
   4528. tshipman Posted: September 22, 2021 at 04:57 PM (#6041081)
Presumably Rosas objected to giving up Anthony Edwards, since that's the guy that Gerson drafted 1-1.
   4529. Your favorite TFTIO, me! Posted: September 22, 2021 at 04:59 PM (#6041082)
I still think it’s something off court related. But yuck. This ####### team.
   4530. asinwreck Posted: September 22, 2021 at 05:31 PM (#6041093)
David Griffin could be available soon to run Minnesota. He has claim to a championship.
   4531. 57i66135 is available to babysit, for a price Posted: September 22, 2021 at 06:03 PM (#6041100)
i just noticed that ESPN cancelled "highly questionable". i assume they're being replaced by a gambling show hosted by spencer hawes and richie incognito.
   4532. 57i66135 is available to babysit, for a price Posted: September 22, 2021 at 06:06 PM (#6041101)
Marc Stein @TheSteinLine
Joe Lacob was just fined $50,000 by the NBA for his comments about Ben Simmons.
Mike Finger @mikefinger
The NBAest thing ever is that it is considered tampering to say you don’t want a guy who doesn’t shoot.
   4533. Fourth True Outcome Posted: September 22, 2021 at 07:24 PM (#6041111)
This seems to pretty clearly either a firing over a Simmons trade or unrealted to basketball entirely; according to literally a random reddit user who claims to have a friend who works for the team, Rosas had an affair with the team's PR director and the firing is coming now because the team had to wait for an internal investigation. We'll see, but I guess that would be a better scenario for the Wolves than ARod trading Anthony Edwards for Ben Simmons.
   4534. Athletic Supporter is USDA certified lean Posted: September 22, 2021 at 07:36 PM (#6041116)
Guys, I'm starting to think the Timberwolves might not know what they're doing.
   4535. Your favorite TFTIO, me! Posted: September 22, 2021 at 08:00 PM (#6041121)
Guys, I'm starting to think the Timberwolves might not know what they're doing.

Big, if true.
   4536. 57i66135 is available to babysit, for a price Posted: September 22, 2021 at 09:07 PM (#6041142)
I can’t do it anymore. This is the year that NBA 2K has turned me into the Joker.
...
I’ve been reviewing this game, or at least parts of this game, for almost a decade now, and with each passing year have grown more disillusioned with the direction it has taken, inching further and further away from “great basketball game with a broken but interesting singleplayer mode” to “exploitative psychological and economic trap”.
...
NBA 2K22 is simply not a basketball game. There is basketball in it, but that’s not the point. It is instead one enormous shakedown, an ornate palace built of never-ending attempts to coax more and more money out of the player despite the full-price cost of admission, some of them crafty and subtle, most of them obnoxiously obvious and disgusting in their persistence.
...
Firing it up every day felt like work, like I was grabbing a helmet and lamp and putting in a shift in a virtual currency mine, chipping away at inert slabs of menus and advertisements, the prospect of this simply being a fun game about basketball being little more than a distant memory.
...
2K22's monetisation follows you around incessantly, nipping at your heels in every menu, taunting you at every splash screen, driving you mad with observations like the fact every single cutscene in the game is instantly skippable except for the first five seconds of a heavily Gatorade-branded timeout.

   4537. tshipman Posted: September 22, 2021 at 11:34 PM (#6041186)
The affair is confirmed by a Minnesota news org:


WCCO’s Mike Max says based on conversations, Rosas is out for two reasons: a culture he created that allegedly was toxic, and for an “inappropriate relationship” inside the organization.


He was apparently schtupping the executive assistant.

Edit: hold up, apparently it was the PR director.
   4538. Fourth True Outcome Posted: September 22, 2021 at 11:40 PM (#6041188)
Shams has dropped an article on the Wolves firing of Rosas.

Money quotes are:
It is also the culmination of months of evaluation by ownership and the franchise’s high-ranking officials about the state of Rosas’ leadership and the direction of the franchise under his watch. Ownership has listened to a vocal contingent of staffers express concern about the way Rosas conducted his business, sources told The Athletic, and finally came to the conclusion that they could not wait any longer to address the situation.

Rosas’ reign was described as dysfunctional, with tension rippling through the front office, according to some sources. Outside of it, rival team executives and agents would complain about how Rosas treated relationships and negotiations. The complaints reached as high as the ownership level over the last several weeks, lending a perception of inevitability to the end of Rosas’ tenure.

Prior to the announcement, The Athletic had spent the last several weeks investigating the working environment under Rosas and interviewed numerous sources on the current staff about the situation after learning of mounting discontent. Some said Rosas worked his staff long hours without giving much input into the decision-making process. Others took issue with decisions made on personnel moves and trades, including the light protections on a first-round draft pick that landed them D’Angelo Russell from Golden State, Rosas’ signature move.

“It’s hard,” one member of the organization who followed Rosas to Minnesota after he was hired said. “He’s not who I thought he was.”

Rosas also had several backers in the organization, who said the current issues they were facing were more related to the pandemic and the stress brought on by the ownership change than Rosas’ leadership style.

So whether or not the reddit rando was correct or not, Rosas is out for being an #######. Sachin Gupta, the executive VP of basketball operations is taking over, so hopefully that goes well for everyone.

Every angle of the Ben Simmons situation seems to point to stasis holding for the time being. It's kind of excruciating, but also could mean a trade is going to shock us all tomorrow.

Edit: Aha! That's what I get for doubting my anonymous reddit rando sourcing.
   4539. tshipman Posted: September 22, 2021 at 11:50 PM (#6041190)
“It’s hard,” one member of the organization who followed Rosas to Minnesota after he was hired said.


Apparently that was the issue.
   4540. 57i66135 is available to babysit, for a price Posted: September 23, 2021 at 12:12 AM (#6041195)
Ky Carlin @Ky_Carlin
I’m really sitting here watching old Rodney Stuckey highlights. How’s everybody else’s Wednesday night?

   4541. Your favorite TFTIO, me! Posted: September 23, 2021 at 07:51 AM (#6041202)
Firing the dude responsible for the toxic work environment is like a top 5 Timberwolves move, along with drafting Garnett and those Prince jerseys.
   4542. jmurph Posted: September 23, 2021 at 08:02 AM (#6041203)
So, it's much too early to say for sure, and Edwards could salvage everything, but it's looking like Rosas did a pretty terrible job, right? In addition to all of these other things? The Wiggins trade looks bad, moving up to take Culver was bad, passing on LaMelo looks bad (again, with the caveat that Edwards could pass him). I liked the Covington deal to get the Denver guys, and the Culver/Beverley deal this summer looks good. I don't know, at this point it looks like he got a few big things wrong and did some smaller things well.


   4543. asinwreck Posted: September 23, 2021 at 08:15 AM (#6041205)
The Athletic article sure reads like one of the sources was Gupta himself. Meanwhile, from ESPN, I did not realize this detail:
Gupta is an analytics ace who began his career at ESPN, where he developed the popular website feature known as the "NBA Trade Machine" that calculates the salary-cap ramifications of any potential deal that a fan wants to plug in.
   4544. Your favorite TFTIO, me! Posted: September 23, 2021 at 08:24 AM (#6041208)
I think the McDaniels pick, the Beverly trade, and the Finch hiring are all solid wins. Naz Reid too, I guess. Even if Edwards ends up better than LaMelo, eh, that was a coin flip of a pick at the time.
   4545. Mellow Mouse, Benevolent Space Tyrant Posted: September 23, 2021 at 09:26 AM (#6041219)
Last year's draft could be really good actually, but right now Rosas does not have a great resume from his short stint with the Wolves.

Just heard on a podcast that the Wolves have had 9 different heads of basketball in the last 13 years. During KAT's time many head coaches and heads of bball. Just a dumpster fire.

Taylor can't be out as owner soon enough, and I hope the new owners basically get to make the call on the new POBO (I am fine with keeping Gupta, but at this point who knows).
   4546. aberg Posted: September 23, 2021 at 11:31 AM (#6041238)
So, it's much too early to say for sure, and Edwards could salvage everything, but it's looking like Rosas did a pretty terrible job, right? In addition to all of these other things? The Wiggins trade looks bad, moving up to take Culver was bad, passing on LaMelo looks bad (again, with the caveat that Edwards could pass him). I liked the Covington deal to get the Denver guys, and the Culver/Beverley deal this summer looks good. I don't know, at this point it looks like he got a few big things wrong and did some smaller things well.


I think his tenure will go down as pretty average. The Wiggins trade ended up being Wiggins and Kuminga for Russell, which I wouldn't call a clear win in either direction, unless Kuminga really hits. The Culver pick was bad, but giving up Saric and the Cam Johnson pick (who they almost certainly wouldn't have picked anyway because everyone thought it was a reach at the time) doesn't amount to much. They basically traded Covington for Beasley, Hernangomez, and the picks that became McDaniels and Bolmaro. Hernangomez and Culver turned into Beverley. McDaniels had a very promising rookie year and Bolmaro is more than nothing. They got Vanderbilt as a trade throw-in and he looks like a good rotation player. Reid, Nowell, and McLaughlin were nice finds that were free/cheap to get. The Edwards point is correct, though. If Edwards turns into an All-Star, he had a good run as GM. If Edwards is Wiggins 2.0, it was a flop, especially with Ball right there for the taking.

I found the Shams article on all of Rosas's misdeeds pretty light on examples. Honestly, the long hours, uncertainty about your role, and frustration with changes in direction sound like pretty much every corporate environment I've heard about during the pandemic. Sleeping with the PR director is a problem, especially since it makes him quite a hypocrite after trumpeting family values every time a mic was in front of his face. The stuff about how he dealt with other teams was also light on examples. The only concrete story was on McLaughlin, but that story basically amounted to telling him negotiations that they wanted him as their primary backup PG, then telling him they wanted him as a 3rd string PG after they acquired Beverley. That doesn't seem unique or especially bad to me.

Rosas did not have a great run and not a transformative one. In the end, he leaves Minnesota as yet another executive with yet another distinct approach who wasn't able to overcome Glen Taylor's hex on the franchise.
   4547. aberg Posted: September 23, 2021 at 11:36 AM (#6041241)
I feel legitimately bad for KAT. He's a talented, hard-working player who got drafted into a never-ending ########### of a franchise. It's almost unfathomable that the front office could do as much damage to a star player's career as it did to KG with the Joe Smith fiasco, but I feel like we're getting there with KAT. I'm almost ready to mercy trade him just to see something good happen to him.
   4548. Fourth True Outcome Posted: September 23, 2021 at 12:15 PM (#6041251)
I found the Shams article on all of Rosas's misdeeds pretty light on examples.

I thought the same, but also figured the piece got published because Rosas got fired, not because it was necessarily fully ready. It may be true that he created a truly toxic environment without any dramatic stories of him berating an employee to tears in front of others or anything; it may conversely be true that it was a normal-ish work environment but the FO faction that didn't like him swayed Glen Taylor when Taylor learned of the affair. Also unclear if the affair was left out of the article because Shams couldn't get enough intel on it or out of discretion. Overall, I'm with TFTIO, I guess, Wolves gonna Wolve.
   4549. Your favorite TFTIO, me! Posted: September 23, 2021 at 12:34 PM (#6041255)
Overall, I'm with TFTIO, I guess, Wolves gonna Wolve.

Wait, I meant, "Wovles gonna Wovle".
   4550. Fourth True Outcome Posted: September 23, 2021 at 12:39 PM (#6041256)
TFTIO gonna TFTIO

Sorry, no, that's too mean.
   4551. Your favorite TFTIO, me! Posted: September 23, 2021 at 12:45 PM (#6041259)
Sorry, no, that's too mean.

I do this to myself.
   4552. tshipman Posted: September 23, 2021 at 12:46 PM (#6041260)
I think his tenure will go down as pretty average. The Wiggins trade ended up being Wiggins and Kuminga for Russell, which I wouldn't call a clear win in either direction, unless Kuminga really hits. The Culver pick was bad, but giving up Saric and the Cam Johnson pick (who they almost certainly wouldn't have picked anyway because everyone thought it was a reach at the time) doesn't amount to much. They basically traded Covington for Beasley, Hernangomez, and the picks that became McDaniels and Bolmaro. Hernangomez and Culver turned into Beverley. McDaniels had a very promising rookie year and Bolmaro is more than nothing. They got Vanderbilt as a trade throw-in and he looks like a good rotation player. Reid, Nowell, and McLaughlin were nice finds that were free/cheap to get. The Edwards point is correct, though. If Edwards turns into an All-Star, he had a good run as GM. If Edwards is Wiggins 2.0, it was a flop, especially with Ball right there for the taking.


I think Rosas was a bottom 5 GM before he got fired. The Russell deal was an absolute dumpster fire. He lost every single trade. He didn't make a single home run draft pick.
   4553. PJ Martinez Posted: September 23, 2021 at 12:50 PM (#6041262)
SI's top ten. Seems reasonable.

1. KD
2. Giannis
3. LeBron
4. Steph
5. Jokic
6. Luka
7. Harden
8. Embiid
9. AD
10. Kawhi
   4554. spivey 2 Posted: September 23, 2021 at 01:03 PM (#6041265)
I think his tenure will go down as pretty average. The Wiggins trade ended up being Wiggins and Kuminga for Russell, which I wouldn't call a clear win in either direction, unless Kuminga really hits.

I have to disagree with this. 18 months removed from the trade, I think Wiggins is a better player than Russell, and has more value in the league at this point. In fact, GSW may have even worked Wiggins' value all the way up to close to neutral value. Throwing in a lightly protected first makes it a really, really bad trade.

Edwards is a good young talent, but he wouldn't go 1-1 in a redraft imo.

Those are the two biggest moves for the franchise to move from terrible to relevant. I think Minnesota is as far away or farther from competing than they were when he took over.
   4555. Der-K's emotional investment is way up Posted: September 23, 2021 at 01:08 PM (#6041268)
my opinion of rosas' recent moves was a lot higher than of his previous moves, when i was convinced he was one of the worst gms in the league. those earlier moves were a lot more important...
   4556. Mike A Posted: September 23, 2021 at 01:11 PM (#6041270)
I don't think I'd go KD #1, but I'm also not sure who I'd put there instead. So maybe he is #1.

Getting back to defensive centers, I noticed the SI list does not value them nearly as highly as the advanced stats - B Lopez ranked #82, Capela #48, and Gobert #21.
   4557. tshipman Posted: September 23, 2021 at 01:19 PM (#6041272)
I don't think I'd go KD #1, but I'm also not sure who I'd put there instead. So maybe he is #1.


I think KD had the best shooting year of his career last year, which is probably a bit of a sample size fluke.

He only played 35 games.

I actually don't think there's any way you can put him #1, and top 5 might be a stretch honestly given the availability issues.

For all of the playoff heroics, Nets were actually better on offense and defense in the playoffs with KD off the court. Almost certainly a sample size fluke, but illustrates that his playoff run was a bit overrated.
   4558. Your favorite TFTIO, me! Posted: September 23, 2021 at 01:24 PM (#6041275)
I was very very very done with Wiggins on the Wolves, but that was a terrible trade.
   4559. aberg Posted: September 23, 2021 at 01:25 PM (#6041276)
it may conversely be true that it was a normal-ish work environment but the FO faction that didn't like him swayed Glen Taylor when Taylor learned of the affair.


This was my read on it after processing the Shams article, fwiw.
   4560. aberg Posted: September 23, 2021 at 01:28 PM (#6041279)
I actually don't think there's any way you can put him #1, and top 5 might be a stretch honestly given the availability issues.


Yes, agree with this. Putting him #1 is basically saying "he's healthy now!" But there's a lot of space between "currently has torn Achilles" and "fully healthy" and he has skewed more toward the former.

I'd probably go Giannis-Lebron-Steph as the top 3 and wouldn't quibble with any order. After that, it gets murkier.
   4561. aberg Posted: September 23, 2021 at 01:29 PM (#6041281)
I'm not capable of characterizing the trade that got rid of Wiggins as a bad trade. I get what you all are saying and it's logical, but my brain cannot allow it.
   4562. jmurph Posted: September 23, 2021 at 01:32 PM (#6041286)
I found the Shams article on all of Rosas's misdeeds pretty light on examples.

I no longer subscribe, but wasn't it Shams with the detail that he locked Gupta out of the building?
   4563. tshipman Posted: September 23, 2021 at 01:35 PM (#6041289)
I'd probably go Giannis-Lebron-Steph as the top 3 and wouldn't quibble with any order. After that, it gets murkier.


I actually think Giannis kind of has to be #1.

After that, I'd look at Jokic, Luka, Steph and Embiid.
   4564. jmurph Posted: September 23, 2021 at 01:36 PM (#6041290)
10. Kawhi

Is he definitely playing this year?
   4565. Fourth True Outcome Posted: September 23, 2021 at 01:40 PM (#6041294)
I also think that the roster situation in GS was ideal for Wiggins to rehabilitate his image/value in a way that likely wouldn't have been possible had he stayed in Minny and remained a focal point of that team.
   4566. Mike A Posted: September 23, 2021 at 01:50 PM (#6041298)
For all of the playoff heroics, Nets were actually better on offense and defense in the playoffs with KD off the court. Almost certainly a sample size fluke, but illustrates that his playoff run was a bit overrated.
Yeah, I noticed RAPTOR had KD as the 34th best playoff player (behind Ben Simmons!).

Though watching KD in the Olympics, he looked like the best player on the court...by far. Still, his defense isn't all that great, and as noted there are the injury/age concerns. I think you can make a pretty good argument for 5-6 players in that #1 spot. If it came down to cases, I'd probably go Giannis.
   4567. Moses Taylor hashes out the rumpus Posted: September 23, 2021 at 01:53 PM (#6041300)
For all of the playoff heroics, Nets were actually better on offense and defense in the playoffs with KD off the court. Almost certainly a sample size fluke, but illustrates that his playoff run was a bit overrated.

The narrative, of course, being he nearly dragged a team built around 3 superstars and gum wrappers to an upset of the eventual champs even though the other two stars were either hurt or ineffective the majority of the series.

Yes, it's definitely a sample size thing, and your last point here should be completely dismissed out of hand since he played nearly 90% of the minutes in the Bucks series (most of his rest - 12 of the 43 minutes he didn't play - came in their blowout win in game 2 and who gives a hoot how either team played in the extended garbage time).

However, I agree with the larger point about him not really being #1, though I would say his playoff performance in that Bucks series would strongly imply he is healthy now but it also isn't predictive of future health.
   4568. Der-K's emotional investment is way up Posted: September 23, 2021 at 01:56 PM (#6041301)
4562 - yeah, i think so.
the article was pretty light on examples of his misdeeds, i agree. (which is not to defend rosas).

speaking of wiggins - how worried should gsw be about his lack of willingness to get vaccinated? like, beyond other things it signals about him and that it increases the risk he or his teammates will miss time due to illness - i mean vis-a-vis california law and his ability to play at home.
   4569. tshipman Posted: September 23, 2021 at 02:01 PM (#6041303)
The narrative, of course, being he nearly dragged a team built around 3 superstars and gum wrappers to an upset of the eventual champs even though the other two stars were either hurt or ineffective the majority of the series.

Yes, it's definitely a sample size thing, and your last point here should be completely dismissed out of hand since he played nearly 90% of the minutes in the Bucks series (most of his rest - 12 of the 43 minutes he didn't play - came in their blowout win in game 2 and who gives a hoot how either team played in the extended garbage time).


They played a first round series, too.

Durant was +45 in a series the Nets had a +56 differential in, so they were better with him off the court in that series as well.
   4570. Your favorite TFTIO, me! Posted: September 23, 2021 at 02:02 PM (#6041305)
I also think that the roster situation in GS was ideal for Wiggins to rehabilitate his image/value in a way that likely wouldn't have been possible had he stayed in Minny and remained a focal point of that team.

This, too. I think that Wiggins had value, more than Russell does. But he was never going to realize that in Minnesota.

What a train wreck that team is.
   4571. Mellow Mouse, Benevolent Space Tyrant Posted: September 23, 2021 at 02:13 PM (#6041307)
Organizationally the Wolves are of course a dumpster fire. But ....

If you ignore that and look at assets I think they are in an OK position. They have some fair talent, most of it young, and their future draft commitments are pretty low. I even like their current coaching staff.

Now I agree, a bad organization can turn gold into crap in a heartbeat, and they are not starting with gold, but I don't think the situation is hopeless based on the assets they have.
   4572. Your favorite TFTIO, me! Posted: September 23, 2021 at 02:23 PM (#6041310)
I agree with Mouse in 4571; it's not a total catastrophe, except for the Wovleiness of the whole thing. The team makes a sort of sense?
   4573. Powderhorn™, moonstruck rascal Posted: September 23, 2021 at 02:23 PM (#6041311)
Durant was +45 in a series the Nets had a +56 differential in, so they were better with him off the court in that series as well.
You're double-counting there. They were +45 in Durant's minutes and +11 in non-Durant minutes.
   4574. spivey 2 Posted: September 23, 2021 at 03:13 PM (#6041318)
In addition to 4567, we just saw the Olympics where Durant carried Team USA. And by the end of the Golden State, Durant seemed to me to be the best player in the NBA right up until he tore his achilles. Against Milwaukee he played good to very good defense, and had good playmaking when needed.

I think in the "you gotta win 1 game", I'm probably taking Durant if he's healthy. If you should factor in his health is a fair question. Ultimately depends what you're trying to measure.

If you had everyone in the NBA healthy going into the playoffs, I think most people take Durant #1. Giannis and LeBron probably go 2/3. I think Luka is #4 for me. I like everything I saw from him, including the insane carrying he's done in the playoffs with almost no help and the work he did with Slovenia to almost get to the title game.

   4575. 57i66135 is available to babysit, for a price Posted: September 23, 2021 at 03:54 PM (#6041330)
The Philadelphia Inquirer @PhillyInquirer
Kate Scott will be the 76ers' new TV announcer, becoming the first woman to do play-by-play for one of Philly's major pro teams.



i....uh....was not expecting this.
   4576. tshipman Posted: September 23, 2021 at 04:04 PM (#6041332)
Kevin Durant is an amazing player, let me just start there.

We know that in analyzing the NBA, there are certain biases. It's easier to observe offense than defense. It's easier to observe on ball than off ball. It's easier to evaluate guys who can seemingly take over due to physical dominance.

I think Durant in particular is almost designed in a lab to be the kind of player who is easy to overrate. He does all his best work with the ball in his hands. He's not an amazing (or incredibly willing) passer. On defense, he's pretty good on ball, and pretty good helping at the rim, but can space out frequently during a game.

Even in 2019, but throughout the Golden State years, Curry had better on/off numbers in the playoffs.

I think Durant's impact frequently gets overrated because everything that he does well is so obvious, and the things he doesn't do well are comparatively much more subtle. Teams don't try to get Durant on a switch. You don't notice when Durant just stands around an entire possession at the corner without moving. You don't notice when Durant blows a switch and lets his guy backdoor. You don't notice what happens to the rest of the offense when Durant is cooking and makes 4 tough contested shots in a row.
   4577. Fourth True Outcome Posted: September 23, 2021 at 04:17 PM (#6041337)
Rumor has it that Kyrie isn't vaccinated, which is tediously on brand for the guy. The intersection of non-vaccinated players and local regulations is going to be a fascinating, probably exhausting subplot to the season. I've been curious about if Beal got vaccinated after his Olympic fiasco or not too.
   4578. Fourth True Outcome Posted: September 23, 2021 at 04:25 PM (#6041338)
i....uh....was not expecting this.

Were you expecting a call?
   4579. 57i66135 is available to babysit, for a price Posted: September 23, 2021 at 04:27 PM (#6041339)
Were you expecting a call?
i didn't know that marc zumoff, who has been calling sixers games for as long as i've been a fan, retired in june. i was not prepared for this change.
   4580. DCA Posted: September 23, 2021 at 04:38 PM (#6041341)
speaking of wiggins - how worried should gsw be about his lack of willingness to get vaccinated? like, beyond other things it signals about him and that it increases the risk he or his teammates will miss time due to illness - i mean vis-a-vis california law and his ability to play at home.

Does he get paid for games that state law doesn't allow him to attend? Because if the answer is no (as it should be) then Joe Lacob is probably paying him under the table to not get vaccinated in order to save on luxury tax costs.

18 months removed from the trade, I think Wiggins is a better player than Russell, and has more value in the league at this point.

I agree with this, but I might still do the deal again from Minny's POV. Towns wanted to play with Russell, and you have to do what Towns wants. If Towns demands to go, the franchise is even more ######, and you basically have to do whatever it takes to prevent that.
   4581. Moses Taylor hashes out the rumpus Posted: September 23, 2021 at 05:10 PM (#6041346)
They played a first round series, too.

He played 80% of the minutes in the 5 game series, 3 of which were decided by 10+ points.

---

I think Durant's impact frequently gets overrated because everything that he does well is so obvious, and the things he doesn't do well are comparatively much more subtle. Teams don't try to get Durant on a switch. You don't notice when Durant just stands around an entire possession at the corner without moving. You don't notice when Durant blows a switch and lets his guy backdoor. You don't notice what happens to the rest of the offense when Durant is cooking and makes 4 tough contested shots in a row.

Again, I agree with your larger point, but this sure feels like an extreme view focusing on the relatively few shortcomings. Hell, you could do something for literally every other player in the league, LeBron included.
   4582. tshipman Posted: September 23, 2021 at 05:31 PM (#6041350)
Again, I agree with your larger point, but this sure feels like an extreme view focusing on the relatively few shortcomings. Hell, you could do something for literally every other player in the league, LeBron included.


I mean, this is an argument to have Durant at #6 in the NBA instead of #3, so I think the disagreement is relatively small.
   4583. rr: cosmopolitan elite Posted: September 23, 2021 at 06:36 PM (#6041365)
I think Antetokounmpo needs to be #1 right now, weighing all factors. The Top 10 is solid though, overall, I think, although you can argue about order.
   4584. aberg Posted: September 23, 2021 at 06:38 PM (#6041366)
I agree with this, but I might still do the deal again from Minny's POV. Towns wanted to play with Russell, and you have to do what Towns wants. If Towns demands to go, the franchise is even more ######, and you basically have to do whatever it takes to prevent that.


There's also some revisionist history about the trade. When they did it, there were light protections on the pick because it seemed unlikely that the resulting team would be in the bottom 3-5 in the league. The idea was that a team built around KAT and Russell would at least be sniffing around the edges of the playoffs. Then, Towns played 50 games, Russell played 42, possibly the third best player spent half the year in jail. When they had anything resembling their actual rotation, they were about a .500 team, as the FO expected they would be when they traded the pick. They bottomed out as one of the very worst teams for a big chunk of the season, but played well enough down the stretch to pull the pick up to 7th. Trading the 7th pick sounds way less bad than trading a top 5 pick, and I think the fear that it could become a top 5 pick is what inspired some of the backlash.

I also agree that there's no way Wiggins was becoming the average-ish player he was last year if he stayed in Minnesota.
   4585. Mellow Mouse, Benevolent Space Tyrant Posted: September 23, 2021 at 06:43 PM (#6041367)
Then, Towns played 50 games, Russell played 42, possibly the third best player spent half the year in jail.


All true, but you are underselling all the other stuff that made it a Very Special Timberwolves Year. Ugh. Without the light protections they could have gone full tank in order to make the best of a bad situation, but tanking and then getting nothing was too big a risk.
   4586. 57i66135 is available to babysit, for a price Posted: September 23, 2021 at 07:19 PM (#6041375)
All true, but you are underselling all the other stuff that made it a Very Special Timberwolves Year. Ugh. Without the light protections they could have gone full tank in order to make the best of a bad situation, but tanking and then getting nothing was too big a risk.

is this a euphemism for half of karl towns' family dying from covid?
   4587. 57i66135 is available to babysit, for a price Posted: September 23, 2021 at 08:19 PM (#6041382)
Chris Dempsey @chrisadempsey
There’s nothing like getting 10 seasons in to give a player full perspective on what it means to be in the NBA for so long. #Nuggets G Will Barton is living that. This is his 10th season, and he’s soaking in everything. A great answer about his perspective going into this season.
pic.twitter.com/rcVSyk8wnv

   4588. spivey 2 Posted: September 24, 2021 at 09:09 AM (#6041439)
Durant outplayed Giannis in that series too. Not by a ton, but he did. That's pretty fresh in people's minds, and goes into these ratings.

I think the thing Giannis has going for him is the optics often do not look good, but he's just relentless. He always gets his, and because of his shot chart, he usually does so efficiently. It's so valuable for a team and comforting as a fan to know "Ok, Giannis is gonna take a few bad shots tonight, but at the end of the day he's gonna have 30 and 15 on like 60% TS". I think his defense is ceiling raising. When you can play a guy like that as your weakside safety and secondary rim protector, it just covers up so much and makes scoring at the rim so difficult.
   4589. spivey 2 Posted: September 24, 2021 at 09:11 AM (#6041440)
I think the top 10 is fairly well set in stone, imo. Kawhi's an interesting case. 10 I guess is just a hedge. If he's healthy, he's no worse than 7 imo. If we're talking value for this year, he's obviously well outside the top 10.
   4590. spivey 2 Posted: September 24, 2021 at 09:31 AM (#6041443)
There's also some revisionist history about the trade. When they did it, there were light protections on the pick because it seemed unlikely that the resulting team would be in the bottom 3-5 in the league. The idea was that a team built around KAT and Russell would at least be sniffing around the edges of the playoffs. Then, Towns played 50 games, Russell played 42, possibly the third best player spent half the year in jail. When they had anything resembling their actual rotation, they were about a .500 team, as the FO expected they would be when they traded the pick. They bottomed out as one of the very worst teams for a big chunk of the season, but played well enough down the stretch to pull the pick up to 7th. Trading the 7th pick sounds way less bad than trading a top 5 pick, and I think the fear that it could become a top 5 pick is what inspired some of the backlash.

I also reject the premise they were going to be a fringe playoff team. Their O/U projection from Caesar's this year is 32.5. Tied for 7th worst in the NBA, 4th worst in the West (HOU, OKC, and SAS). From what I can tell searching about, I think their O/U for last year's 72 game season was 29.5. That was tied for 2nd worst in the West (this was before Houston traded Harden).

I guess if you say playoff team means fringe play in team, but going into the season, I'd argue that basically means every team that isn't actively tanking. In conclusion, they're a bad team that would have to massively overperform to be one of the 8 best teams in the West.
   4591. Der-K's emotional investment is way up Posted: September 24, 2021 at 11:26 AM (#6041467)
handful of minor nba dealings are going on (like g.mathews to bos, 1 yr, no guarantee, min) but a low key one that irks me was portland keeping blevins on a 2-way deal. is there any reason why this guy has played a single minute in the league beyond being dame's cousin? he wasn't great in the big sky, he was actively bad in limited g league action, yet - here he is, re-upped with the blazers.
yeah, i know, keep dame happy, but yuck.
   4592. asinwreck Posted: September 24, 2021 at 02:19 PM (#6041481)
Patrick Williams out 4-6 weeks with a sprained ankle, in case anyone has bets on whether Alize Johnson will make the Bulls' roster.
   4593. Der-K's emotional investment is way up Posted: September 24, 2021 at 03:42 PM (#6041489)
charles bassey and the 76ers, who picked him late in the second round, have been playing a game of chicken around the kind of contract they'd give him - sixers arguably folded today, offering some guaranteed money for year two of a three year deal.
   4594. Der-K's emotional investment is way up Posted: September 24, 2021 at 06:14 PM (#6041508)
Knicks say the whole team is vaccinated. (I know Randle was a question)
   4595. spivey 2 Posted: September 24, 2021 at 09:40 PM (#6041554)
Wiggins isn't vaccinated, applied for religious exemption, and it was denied. He can't play home games as is.

Wonder if this greases the wheels at all for a Wiggins/Simmons trade, or any other Wiggins trade. Wiggins + one of the rookies + a FRP and a swap. Seems like something that should happen.
   4596. 57i66135 is available to babysit, for a price Posted: September 24, 2021 at 10:47 PM (#6041577)
Wonder if this greases the wheels at all for a Wiggins/Simmons trade, or any other Wiggins trade. Wiggins + one of the rookies + a FRP and a swap. Seems like something that should happen.
trade machine: who says no?


*yes, obviously i'm doing this trade in the hopes that injuries pile up and the sixers will be forced to start embiid, drummond and simmonds for a not insignificant stretch of the season.
   4597. Fourth True Outcome Posted: September 24, 2021 at 11:16 PM (#6041581)
Primer RT:
@damanr
Wiggins                       Simmons
          
<Handshake emoji>                                 
         
Take a shotcoward 

(Dunno if this plays without the emoji but I don't care, I'm committed I guess.)
   4598. 57i66135 is available to babysit, for a price Posted: September 25, 2021 at 01:44 PM (#6041617)
Derek Bodner @DerekBodnerNBA
Still completely slack-jawed at Doc Rivers comparing Ben Simmons and his representatives to Trump supporting, Big Lie denialists days before training camp starts, as they're in the middle of trying to convince Simmons to come back and join the team. Sixers always gonna Sixer.

   4599. Mellow Mouse, Benevolent Space Tyrant Posted: September 25, 2021 at 02:50 PM (#6041625)
It seems inevitable that there will be a massive 76er/Timberwolves trade that somehow damages both teams.
   4600. Der-K's emotional investment is way up Posted: September 25, 2021 at 10:44 PM (#6041717)
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