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Friday, May 21, 2021

NBA 2021 Playoffs+ thread

I estimate there are maybe 10-12 Primates left on this site, and they all post in the NBA thread.

Moses Taylor hashes out the rumpus Posted: May 21, 2021 at 01:07 PM | 4930 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
  Tags: clutch, narratives, nba, off topic, redemption

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   4701. Mellow Mouse, Benevolent Space Tyrant Posted: September 30, 2021 at 04:17 PM (#6042603)
we got rid of Jimmy, which I still think was a mistake


That doesn't accord with my memory as to why they got rid of Jimmy. I could be wrong, I suppose.
   4702. Hombre Brotani Posted: September 30, 2021 at 04:21 PM (#6042605)
All of this is to say that it is disappointing that LeBron has vacillated on vaccination. I'm not sure it mattered, though.
I think the good he and others in his position could do is incremental, while the damage they could do is enormous.
   4703. rr: cosmopolitan elite Posted: September 30, 2021 at 04:31 PM (#6042607)
Simmons: Embiid is correct. I actually commented last year that I thought Morey had done a nice job of getting cheap shooting around Simmons. And while the loss to Atlanta was bad, they could have been in the ECF as easily as not. And as to 4699--yeah, I think Simmons thinks he is Magic Johnson, and Simmons ofc is also a product of the player empowerment era.

As I and others have said, one thing I notice about people here defending Simmons' value is that it always entails multi-tiered explanations of how he should be used and what he should be doing and how he needs to stop doing X, do more of Y, and kind of more or less be a different person. All players have limitations and to use Embiid's word "needs" ofc; the only two guys I have ever seen who are close to "perfect players" are James and Jordan. But with Simmons it seems like the over-explanations are excessive. With a guy, like say, Paul George, it is "He is more of a #2 so he needs a #1 like Leonard" and that is sort of it. With Kyrie Irving it's "You need a couple of good defenders with him" (and a really awesome team psychologist) and that is a lot of it. But Simmons's weaknesses are glaring enough that he seems to require a hell of a lot of planning and speculating.
   4704. Mellow Mouse, Benevolent Space Tyrant Posted: September 30, 2021 at 05:05 PM (#6042615)
I thought Jimmy wanted out? Less than he wanted out of MN, but still.
   4705. we all water; we all 57i66135 Posted: September 30, 2021 at 05:08 PM (#6042616)
That doesn't accord with my memory as to why they got rid of Jimmy. I could be wrong, I suppose.

we "know" the sixers did not want butler back, and we also "know" that the sixers made that decision ahead of the 2019 trade deadline, when they went in for tharris. what we don't "know" is how much of that decision was due to pressure coming from simmons and his people, while he was coming off his rookie deal and negotiating a max extension.
I thought Jimmy wanted out? Less than he wanted out of MN, but still.
maybe, but i think he just knew he wasn't wanted.
Simmons: Embiid is correct. I actually commented last year that I thought Morey had done a nice job of getting cheap shooting around Simmons. And while the loss to Atlanta was bad, they could have been in the ECF as easily as not. And as to 4699--yeah, I think Simmons thinks he is Magic Johnson, and Simmons ofc is also a product of the player empowerment era.
the most colossally ####### stoopid part of this is that klutch, of all agencies, knows that hero ball #### doesn't work.

lebron needed wade and bosh, then he needed kyrie, then he needed davis; and he's ####### lebron. yet here they are whispering into ben simmons' ear holes that he's too good to play alongside joel embiid. gtfoohwtbs.


one of the more damning parts in all of this is that, apparently, it never occurred to ben simmons that he could just tell embiid to take the night off because he was going to do work.
   4706. Fourth True Outcome Posted: September 30, 2021 at 06:21 PM (#6042625)
To be fair, it's unclear if it occurred to Ben Simmons that he could go do work, or if it's just a thing that happened on occasion when the vibes were right.
   4707. Hombre Brotani Posted: September 30, 2021 at 11:07 PM (#6042732)
But with Simmons it seems like the over-explanations are excessive. With a guy, like say, Paul George, it is "He is more of a #2 so he needs a #1 like Leonard" and that is sort of it. [snip] But Simmons's weaknesses are glaring enough that he seems to require a hell of a lot of planning and speculating.
I think the Sixers have handled this very badly, but nobody put a gun to their heads and made them give Simmons that extension, or publicly throw their sensitive young talent under every passing bus. That said, teams that want great perimeter defense and 12 PPG can trade for Lu Dort. Sure, Simmons is better, but he's not $30 MILLION better, and Dort's not going to demand the ball and then not shoot it.
   4708. aberg Posted: October 01, 2021 at 11:59 AM (#6042789)
For all the Simmons bashing, does anyone here think Russell, Beasley, and 2 #1s for Simmons would be a bad trade for the Wolves?

What if McDaniels was in it?

Edit:

If the Wolves gave up all of that, the rotation would be

G- Beverley, McLaughlin
W- Edwards, Nowell/Bolmaro
W- T Prince, Okogie
F- Simmons, Vanderbilt
C- Towns, Reid

   4709. Mellow Mouse, Benevolent Space Tyrant Posted: October 01, 2021 at 12:27 PM (#6042797)
For all the Simmons bashing, does anyone here think Russell, Beasley, and 2 #1s for Simmons would be a bad trade for the Wolves?


I think it is more than they should give up. I am not sure it would be a bad trade, but it is not a good trade at that point. And adding McDaniels on top of it is too much and would be a bad trade.

What is the ceiling of that Simmons team? It depends on Ant I suppose, but so does the current iteration.

I am willing (like it matters what I think) to trade for Simmons if I get a bargain, not if I have to pay anything close to full price. He is too flawed and the market is shallow enough (and I am happy enough with the current roster) that there is no reason to put everything on Simmons.

Also, I don't think the salaries work out, the 76ers would have to send something else back I think.
   4710. Mellow Mouse, Benevolent Space Tyrant Posted: October 01, 2021 at 12:29 PM (#6042799)
Simmons for Russell, McDaniels, and a #1. That is about the most I am willing to part with. (I consider McDaniels worth at least a future #1 of unknown slot, so two #1s also works).

EDIT: Yes it feels dumb to draw the line at Beasley. I get that.
   4711. we all water; we all 57i66135 Posted: October 01, 2021 at 12:35 PM (#6042801)
didn't MIN trade for dangelo russell because of his close personal relationship with towns? it seems odd to assume he'd be the guy that gets traded, rather than a package including some combination of beasley, beverley, edwards and mcdaniels.
   4712. spivey 2 Posted: October 01, 2021 at 12:41 PM (#6042804)
I mean, Russell is on a negative value contract that I think just to turn into cap space is probably worth a first.

So, in my mind, you're essentially saying Simmons is just worth McDaniels or a FRP in that scenario.

Which I think is a valid position to have. I think Nate Duncan, among others, is on the record on his podcast of saying Simmons is negative value on his max deal. But I think that's really a very weak offer. Even accounting for the fact a Wolves FRP is worth a lot more than, say, a Milwaukee FRP since it's more likely to be in the top 3.
   4713. Mellow Mouse, Benevolent Space Tyrant Posted: October 01, 2021 at 01:14 PM (#6042809)
Towns and Russell are buddies, but I assume if Russell is traded it is with KAT's blessing.

Spivey - I am not willing to trade for Simmons without getting a deal. I think he is negative value right now for the 76ers(and on his Max contract I am not convinced how much surplus value he will even generate honestly to a random team).

They are welcome to get a better deal, but Simmons is such a unique and difficult piece to fit onto a team and is so expensive and a PITA for the 76ers, that I am not willing to give up what Simmons is in theory worth in order to get him.

EDIT: I don't insist on Russell going to the 76ers though. They can have spare parts, but I assume they will need the lead guard since without Simmons they are a bit deficient in that.
   4714. tshipman Posted: October 01, 2021 at 01:38 PM (#6042820)
So, in my mind, you're essentially saying Simmons is just worth McDaniels or a FRP in that scenario.

Which I think is a valid position to have.


I don't really. Simmons is good, and pairs well with Towns. The Timberwolves should face a fair amount of pressure to actually be good this year or they're going to have wasted Towns' entire career and he'll go somewhere else.
   4715. Moses Taylor hashes out the rumpus Posted: October 01, 2021 at 01:59 PM (#6042828)
   4716. Crosseyed and Painless Posted: October 01, 2021 at 03:37 PM (#6042856)
More Ben Simmons news! Which is old news by Twitter standards but didn't see it posted here yet:

@ShamsCharania·39m Sources: The 76ers are not paying Ben Simmons his $8.25 million payment due today as the three-time All-Star awaits a trade. Simmons still is not showing up to Philadelphia and has understood the ramifications of his holdout.

Another few days and there will be something non-Simmons, non-Covid to discuss.
   4717. we all water; we all 57i66135 Posted: October 01, 2021 at 04:37 PM (#6042866)
This you, stiggles?
there is no kink-shaming in this dojo.
   4718. Moses Taylor hashes out the rumpus Posted: October 01, 2021 at 04:57 PM (#6042872)
Shaming? Of course not. I'm just now...curious?... what you did with your shitty MFer jersey.
   4719. we all water; we all 57i66135 Posted: October 01, 2021 at 05:57 PM (#6042888)
Shaming? Of course not. I'm just now...curious?... what you did with your shitty MFer jersey.

when do you think i would have bought a shitty MFer jersey?

i wasn't overly thrilled with trading for him at the draft.
he was injured before he showed up to training camp.
he pulled himself off the team, 5 games into his rookie season.
   4720. Tom Cervo, backup catcher Posted: October 01, 2021 at 06:25 PM (#6042896)
If Simmons looked like that Kylie never would have dumped him
   4721. Der-K's tired of these fruits from poisoned trees Posted: October 01, 2021 at 07:06 PM (#6042901)
4715: That dude looks like an off brand Jon Daly.
—-
I’m not sure if it has been mentioned on this site before but craftednba is a solid little site.

   4722. we all water; we all 57i66135 Posted: October 03, 2021 at 04:06 PM (#6043272)
Anthony Slater @anthonyVslater
Andrew Wiggins is vaccinated. The Warriors will have their starting small forward this season. theathletic.com/news/warriors-…
Brian Lewis @NYPost_Lewis
James Harden, heavily masked-up and disguised as a canary. #nets pic.twitter.com/PsoLd2XzlG
John Schuhmann @johnschuhmann
First double-take of the season: Rondo is on the team, but somebody else (Bazemore) on the Lakers is wearing No. 9.
   4723. we all water; we all 57i66135 Posted: October 03, 2021 at 05:24 PM (#6043316)
The Jump @_Talkin_NBA
You digging Dwight's purple braids? #NBATwitter pic.twitter.com/Tc7ERlCYMe
   4724. rr: cosmopolitan elite Posted: October 03, 2021 at 07:50 PM (#6043391)
Draymond Green, who appears to be a very smart guy without much of an off-switch (I have been impressed by some of Green's statements on race), talked for about 2 1/2 minutes about Wiggins a few days ago, coming down on the "I can't tell him what to do/it's his choice/why is the vaxx being pushed so hard" side, and LeBron James added a lame "could have not said it better myself" Tweet in support.

My own experience is that people should try to ask questions of people they know/can access who have relevant knowledge bases about the nuances of the issue; in my case, talking to Nursing and Bio profs at the college where I work has helped me a lot. If the COVID death rate were like 46.3% and your body were covered with exploding red pustules before you died, then everybody would get the shot. Since it is not like that, and there is the less obvious stuff, like slowing mutation rate, risk mitigation vs. actual cure, getting a mild case vs. a bad case, preserving ICU beds, etc. it takes a little effort--and a little humility, to be able to say "let me talk to qualified professionals"--to kind of tap into it. I am not saying that it is super complicated, but there is enough nuance around it that it takes a little self-education and big-picture risk-mitigation analysis, and we as a culture/country aren't real hot at those things, especially given the political polarization and scattergun information ecosystems of the social media era.

One thing I would like to know is if guys like James/Green/Wiggins, and also harder line types like Beal, talked to trainers/doctors etc. about it, and what they asked, before deciding on the words/actions that they did.
   4725. Your favorite TFTIO, me! Posted: October 03, 2021 at 08:03 PM (#6043395)
I do think that it’s important to remember that NBA players have a very different relationship to their bodies than we mortals do. Again, not an excuse but maybe an explanation.
   4726. rr: cosmopolitan elite Posted: October 03, 2021 at 08:04 PM (#6043396)
COVID news from the NHL:

Chad Loder
@chadloder
Canada's only unvaccinated hockey player contracted COVID, developed myocarditis, and now he can't play hockey.
Quote Tweet
ahmarskhan
@AhmarSKhan
· 4h
Oilers' Josh Archibald's anti-vaccine + conspiratorial stances led to him contracting COVID-19 and being diagnosed with myocarditis.
Show this thread
   4727. rr: cosmopolitan elite Posted: October 03, 2021 at 08:08 PM (#6043399)

I do think that it’s important to remember that NBA players have a very different relationship to their bodies than we mortals do. Again, not an excuse but maybe an explanation.



Sure, but they also have a comparatively large number of people, from their families on out, who on some level count on the performance/health of those bodies, and they have easy access to very high-level professionals in relevant fields. So, it is a little hard for me to be sympathetic, even accounting for the historical-racial context that you mentioned, which was a valid point.
   4728. Your favorite TFTIO, me! Posted: October 04, 2021 at 11:27 AM (#6043499)
So, it is a little hard for me to be sympathetic, even accounting for the historical-racial context that you mentioned, which was a valid point.

Don't mistake my posts as expressing sympathy for the anti-vaxxers, though. I'm just trying to work through in my own head what could lead someone to that position (NBA player division).

Let's just hurry up and trade Simmons to .... New Orleans, and kick the season off right.
   4729. spivey 2 Posted: October 04, 2021 at 11:41 AM (#6043501)
Some of the NBA players, in particular high profile players, are saying nonsense about the vaccine. But they are reportedly at like 95+% vaccination as a collective group. I think European soccer is below or near 50%.

Some of that is American sports I think have tried to use financial pressure on a lot of athletes, but on the whole they're a pretty damn vaccinated group.

   4730. tshipman Posted: October 04, 2021 at 03:18 PM (#6043556)
David Locke is the worst podcast guest on any podcast.

I'm listening to the Dunc'd on season outlook on the Jazz, and he's claiming that Hassan Whiteside was a great pickup for the Jazz. Just the most ridiculous homer.
   4731. Mellow Mouse, Benevolent Space Tyrant Posted: October 04, 2021 at 03:49 PM (#6043560)
I listened as well to that one. I didn't feel more knowledgeable about the Jazz after it. But to be fair he did qualify his praise a bit, especially saying it was a good regular season move. But yeah ...
   4732. spivey 2 Posted: October 04, 2021 at 04:22 PM (#6043566)
I don't know what to make of the Lakers this year. I like some of the moves they made on the edge. Nunn, Monk, Bazemore - at least from a basketball perspective, I think these guys can help. They also have a whole lot of toasty veterans up and down their lineup. Will be interesting to see how minutes are managed.
   4733. we all water; we all 57i66135 Posted: October 04, 2021 at 04:54 PM (#6043571)
21185. 57i66135 right now is attacking rest Posted: December 14, 2010 at 04:28 AM (#3710008)
i wonder what brian zoubek is up to.
21190. Norcan Posted: December 14, 2010 at 04:52 AM (#3710024)
How has Brian Zoubek, he of the 2 cm vertical, get into this discussion. I'm surprised that he's not even playing in the d-league. Lance Thomas of all people is playing in the d-league and shockingly averaging double digit points. I think that says more about the quality of the d-league than about Thomas breaking out a whole new bag of skills he never showed at Duke. But going back to Zoubek, whether he somehow, someway makes a roster, he's unlikely to have even as big a role as Aaron Gray, another seven foot lug. He should be aiming to make money over in Europe.
21192. Der-K's emotional investment is way up Posted: December 14, 2010 at 05:00 AM (#3710036)
Zoubek is probably better than Sean Marks. Granted, that's no rare distinction but you can't beat NBA money ... if you stick, year after year. Can't fault a guy for trying, especially not at first.
21193. Norcan Posted: December 14, 2010 at 05:13 AM (#3710059)
Au contraire. If it falls on me to rally on Sean Marks' behalf, so be it. Actually, I'm happy to do it since his hacktastic display against the Celtics was only second to Pierce's in Boston procuring their win but be that as it may, Marks has proven to be surprisingly decent whenever he's played, I don't know why. Why would I take him over Zoubek? His shooting touch. He's a solid shooter from outside. He's kind of like a poor man's poor man's Darius Songaila. Or a big man's version of Travis Diener, sticking around in the league year after year despite not playing. Diener will forever be known to me as the guy who didn't pass the ball enough to Wade in college.
21194. Der-K's emotional investment is way up Posted: December 14, 2010 at 05:24 AM (#3710084)
Sean Marks has got to be the worst player to have a 10-year NBA career in recent memory. In fact, I submit that he's below replacement level.
21195. Norcan Posted: December 14, 2010 at 05:24 AM (#3710085)
I can't believe the charmed life of Sean Marks. The guy has made 8 million dollars mostly as a bystander sitting in courtside seats. This doesn't include perks like chartered travel, first class accommodations, meaty per diems, second hand halo effected benefits of his teammates.
   4734. tshipman Posted: October 04, 2021 at 04:56 PM (#6043572)
I don't know what to make of the Lakers this year.


There's a tremendous amount of uncertainty around the Lakers because the 3 man lineup of LeBron/Westbrook/AD is really hard to predict. How good is that lineup? How healthy are the Lakers?

If that lineup is like +8 per 100, then the Lakers are a pretty good team. If it's +12, they're a finals favorite. If it's +5, they'll struggle to hit .500.
   4735. Mellow Mouse, Benevolent Space Tyrant Posted: October 04, 2021 at 05:40 PM (#6043579)
The modern NBA sure seems to be in "Let's go to the lab and make an interesting team" territory the last few years. I kind of like it.
   4736. we all water; we all 57i66135 Posted: October 04, 2021 at 08:00 PM (#6043602)
The modern NBA sure seems to be in "Let's go to the lab and make an interesting team" territory the last few years. I kind of like it.
clearly, jahlil okafor was born 5 years too late.
   4737. Hombre Brotani Posted: October 04, 2021 at 09:03 PM (#6043615)
21185. 57i66135 right now is attacking rest Posted: December 14, 2010 at 04:28 AM (#3710008)
i wonder what brian zoubek is up to.
From Wikipedia:
After working with a technology start-up for a year, Zoubek decided to follow his own dreams and open his own bakery, named Dream Puffz, which specializes in cream puffs.[21] Dream Puffz opened in Haddonfield, New Jersey on July 30, 2012. However, Zoubek shut down Dream Puffz on February 16, 2013 to pursue real estate opportunities. Zoubek said he is in negotiations to sell the rights to the Dream Puffz name.[22]
   4738. Willard Baseball Posted: October 04, 2021 at 11:33 PM (#6043635)
Westbrook is going to help a lot in regular season. With the amount of decent players they have, I am not worried about them in regular season. I still have major questions in the playoffs.
   4739. PJ Martinez Posted: October 05, 2021 at 08:37 AM (#6043646)
This is encouraging. (It's a clip of Curry throwing himself into a defender on a three-point shot and there being no whistle.)
   4740. Der-K's tired of these fruits from poisoned trees Posted: October 05, 2021 at 08:39 AM (#6043647)
Why did I bring up Sean Marks in that convo? Rude!
(Terrible player, fine exec!)

I just heard that same podcast with Locke. I understand his thinking re: Favors (who just didn't work out for the Jazz last year) / Whiteside (who just didn't work out for the Kings last year and is maybe a headcase) but -- I didn't feel like I'd learned anything afterward, no.
   4741. tshipman Posted: October 05, 2021 at 11:18 AM (#6043677)
I just heard that same podcast with Locke. I understand his thinking re: Favors (who just didn't work out for the Jazz last year) / Whiteside (who just didn't work out for the Kings last year and is maybe a headcase) but -- I didn't feel like I'd learned anything afterward, no.


Who is more likely to be effective, a guy you bring in on an MLE, or a guy who the Kings don't even want on a minimum?

Der-K, you've changed. Look at how hard you went on Sean Marks, and now you're saying that Whiteside is "maybe" a headcase???
   4742. Der-K's tired of these fruits from poisoned trees Posted: October 05, 2021 at 11:27 AM (#6043678)
I've always been a Whiteside defender - you can find me arguing that a team should sign Hassan out of Europe way back when, if we still have those pages.
Admittedly, "maybe" was .......... overly gentle. :)
---
I've also always been too hard on guys like Marks, who don't fill a box score or offer the kinds of easily quantified contributions we look for (not a floor spacer, not a ... anything on the floor really) but must do something in the locker room.
   4743. CFBF is Obsessed with Art Deco Posted: October 05, 2021 at 11:36 AM (#6043681)
Der-K, you've changed. Look at how hard you went on Sean Marks, and now you're saying that Whiteside is "maybe" a headcase???


I guess we're down to just Moses as worthwhile posters on this thread, huh?
   4744. Der-K's tired of these fruits from poisoned trees Posted: October 05, 2021 at 11:37 AM (#6043682)
seconded.
   4745. Your favorite TFTIO, me! Posted: October 05, 2021 at 11:49 AM (#6043687)
After one preseason game, I am happy to report that I am Officially Excited for the Wovles season. I am convinced that they will be super creative on how they screw everything up, and I am here for it.
   4746. Moses Taylor hashes out the rumpus Posted: October 05, 2021 at 11:57 AM (#6043692)
I guess we're down to just Moses as worthwhile posters on this thread, huh?

Man, I'm just here for the paychecks and to fill my contractually required post minimum. That's how you get #### like the link in 4715.

I guess this also means I probably should submit a new thread. Ugh.
   4747. we all water; we all 57i66135 Posted: October 05, 2021 at 12:25 PM (#6043697)
I've also always been too hard on guys like Marks, who don't fill a box score or offer the kinds of easily quantified contributions we look for (not a floor spacer, not a ... anything on the floor really) but must do something in the locker room.
#voskuhl
   4748. we all water; we all 57i66135 Posted: October 05, 2021 at 12:28 PM (#6043698)
I've always been a Whiteside defender - you can find me arguing that a team should sign Hassan out of Europe way back when, if we still have those pages.
this took, literally, 3 minutes:
853. Der-K's emotional investment is way up Posted: January 29, 2013 at 04:55 PM (#4357743)
Hassan Whiteside, arguably the best -shotblocking- prospect in recent memory, is now the 4th big for Rio Grande, which has to be a bitter pill. Strange thing is - everybody ahead of him has a decent claim for that role ... third big is Macklin (recent NBAer, 12-6 in 22 min), starters have been Ohlbrecht (future NBAer, 14-7 in 28 min, shooting 60% from the field and 85% from the line) and the alternating Rockets Jones (19-10-2)/Motiejunas (20-10-3). (Jeff Adrien played well there too, earlier in the season.)

In 200 minutes this season, Whiteside has 117 points (4-75 fg, 25-42 ft), 100 rebounds, and 29 blocks, while committing only 22 fouls. PER: 31.4
this one took a little longer to find:
70. rr Posted: January 05, 2015 at 10:55 PM (#4873903)
I agree with the post above that says this deal makes sense for all sides.

The only downside for Cleveland is that Smith has a player option for 2016, but they can probably dump the contract if they have to. As I and several others have said multiple times, Cleveland really needed a young wing who can D up some and play 28-30 MPG. Shumpert is definitely that guy. Smith is older than Shumpert and was not a high pick by the team he will be on, so I think that dynamic will be better. They still need a cheap big who can D up some. If Cleveland's FO guys had simply lurked here, listened to DK, and added Hassan Whiteside, they could start planning parade routes.
   4749. CFBF is Obsessed with Art Deco Posted: October 05, 2021 at 12:46 PM (#6043705)
Hey, a Vernon Macklin sighting.
   4750. Moses Taylor hashes out the rumpus Posted: October 05, 2021 at 12:56 PM (#6043712)
Darnell Mayberry @DarnellMayberry ·2h

“This is definitely the most talented team I’ve been a part of.” Bulls center Nikola Vučević


Poor Vuc.
   4751. we all water; we all 57i66135 Posted: October 05, 2021 at 12:59 PM (#6043714)
Here’s what happened: After leading by 22, Maryland trailed 79-84 with just under three minutes remaining. As Blake brought the ball up the court, Baxter was backing down Duke’s Carl Boozer in the low post. After what people who were present have described as incidental contact, the whistle blew. Boozer, also carrying four fouls, resignedly put up his hands, clearly thinking the foul was called on him. But it went the other way: offensive foul on Baxter. He fell to his knees in shock; the CBS announcers hastily corrected themselves. Williams was enraged. He yelled in protest, lipless and sputtering, and was later quoted as screaming at Big East commissioner and the chairman of the tournament selection committee Mike Tranghese, who was seated at the scorer’s table, “How bad do you guys want Duke in the final?” Maryland lost 95-84. Duke would go on to beat Arizona to win the title.

   4752. we all water; we all 57i66135 Posted: October 05, 2021 at 01:01 PM (#6043715)
Hey, a Vernon Macklin sighting.
yeah, i'm 2 years away from being 2 years away from sending a full printout of these threads to the national archives, because this whole thing is a national treasure.
   4753. aberg Posted: October 05, 2021 at 01:42 PM (#6043721)
Hey, a Vernon Macklin sighting.


Macklin and I are almost the same age, but he somehow started at Georgetown the year after I graduated from Georgetown.
   4754. we all water; we all 57i66135 Posted: October 05, 2021 at 03:33 PM (#6043747)
it isn’t that Simmons remains disinterested in working for Those Guys. That, you could have seen marching down Broadway on Labor Day. It’s this quote from Sports Illustrated‘s Chris Mannix that ratchets up the fun:
Simmons is clearly willing to sacrifice some money—skipping the four preseason games alone will cost Simmons a cool $1.4 million, per ESPN—while Philadelphia is unwilling to be bullied into making a deal just to rid itself of the distraction. Rival executives, even those interested in prying Simmons away from the Sixers, agree. “F— that,” says an Eastern Conference team exec. “You let a guy force his way out with four years left on a max contract and you set a terrible precedent. They can’t cave.”

Parsing that with the usual cleaver-like dexterity, what we have here is the notion that “rival executives” who would like to trade for Simmons think the Sixers shouldn’t trade Simmons, which is a delightful ouroboros of illogic. Let’s talk, Daryl, but if you do, you’re a contemptible weakling and bad for business is quite a negotiations come-on.
good stuff.
   4755. tshipman Posted: October 05, 2021 at 04:26 PM (#6043760)
Happy trails to Pau Gasol, who announced his retirement today officially.

I will always remember Pau as a Laker. He was shockingly effective on the offensive glass, with a buttery smooth jump shot. The thing I'll always remember about Pau was how good he was at keeping his hands up. For a big who passed so much, he always avoided turnovers fantastically, and I always credited how he kept his hands up so well.
   4756. Tom Cervo, backup catcher Posted: October 05, 2021 at 04:55 PM (#6043766)
Who is more likely to be effective, a guy you bring in on an MLE, or a guy who the Kings don't even want on a minimum?


Okay but the Kings not wanting a guy is probably a point in his favor.

Supposedly the Blazers also wanted Whiteside back (not sure if this a point for or against him) and Whiteside also said he could barely run last year after covid. Claiming he's some huge great signing for the Jazz is complete bonkers/fanboy ####, but as a vet minimum signing I don't think it was a bad idea. If he sucks at least there's a chance Azubuike could be a passable backup, and Rudy Gay can probably get some minutes as a smallball 5.


I love Locke for being a homer, but he's at about that worst spot of statshead where he knows just enough to fit whatever narrative he wants. It's always funny when Pelton is on and has to argue with Locke about what numbers actually mean. Every season he has all these reasons the Jazz have disappointed but through no fault of their own and it's things literally every single team also has to deal with (schedule, travel, fatigue, etc.).
   4757. we all water; we all 57i66135 Posted: October 05, 2021 at 05:02 PM (#6043768)
I love Locke for being a homer, but he's at about that worst spot of statshead where he knows just enough to fit whatever narrative he wants. It's always funny when Pelton is on and has to argue with Locke about what numbers actually mean. Every season he has all these reasons the Jazz have disappointed but through no fault of their own and it's things literally every single team also has to deal with (schedule, travel, fatigue, etc.).
it is beyond rich for any utah fan to complain about those things, in particular.
   4758. Tom Cervo, backup catcher Posted: October 05, 2021 at 05:12 PM (#6043771)
IIRC he also blamed injuries for the Jazz losing to the Clippers. Which yes Conley was injured and Donovan couldn't move on defense, but you don't get to blame injuries when the other team was missing Kawhi in 2 or 3 of the games you blew.
   4759. tshipman Posted: October 05, 2021 at 06:06 PM (#6043784)
Okay but the Kings not wanting a guy is probably a point in his favor.


Somewhat bizarrely, when the Kings want a guy, it's a bad sign, but it's also a bad sign when they don't want a guy they already have.

Every season he has all these reasons the Jazz have disappointed but through no fault of their own and it's things literally every single team also has to deal with (schedule, travel, fatigue, etc.).


Every year, the Jazz bomb out in the playoffs earlier than expected. When they run into a team that just goes 5 smalls, they can't keep up. When they run into Jokic, they can't guard him either. To me, the problem is that their style doesn't really work in the playoffs because teams can either go small, or they have an incredible big.
   4760. we all water; we all 57i66135 Posted: October 05, 2021 at 06:11 PM (#6043785)
Every year, the Jazz bomb out in the playoffs earlier than expected. When they run into a team that just goes 5 smalls, they can't keep up. When they run into Jokic, they can't guard him either. To me, the problem is that their style doesn't really work in the playoffs because teams can either go small, or they have an incredible big.

trade machine: rudy gobbert can't be traded until october 11 so check back with me next week.
   4761. Hombre Brotani Posted: October 05, 2021 at 06:41 PM (#6043789)
Happy trails to Pau Gasol, who announced his retirement today officially.
Just a fabulous, fabulous player. Pau will always be underrated, even after he gets into the Hall of Fame.
   4762. Tom Cervo, backup catcher Posted: October 05, 2021 at 06:51 PM (#6043792)
trade machine: rudy gobbert can't be traded until october 11 so check back with me next week.


This better be to get him on the Sixers for Simmons.

Also I'd say only last year was them bombing out earlier than expected. They've played worse than they *should* have against the Rockets but don't think they were ever anything but major underdogs.
   4763. SteveF Posted: October 05, 2021 at 06:57 PM (#6043793)
To me, the problem is that their style doesn't really work in the playoffs because teams can either go small, or they have an incredible big.

I think the issue is Gobert can't punish teams sufficiently on the offensive end for going small, and Utah can't defend effectively when Gobert is off the floor (or not in the paint). One of those two things must change if Utah is to contend seriously for a title.

I'd be interested to see what Gobert looked like on a team with wings that can defend. I'm curious to see what he'd look like if he wasn't dropping all the time. His defensive numbers are just eye-popping as the closest defender.
   4764. Tom Cervo, backup catcher Posted: October 05, 2021 at 07:04 PM (#6043796)
I think the issue is Gobert can't punish teams sufficiently on the offensive end for going small, and Utah can't defend effectively when Gobert is off the floor (or not in the paint). One of those two things must change if Utah is to contend seriously for a title.


Agreed. I think a lot of the national media judgment on him is completely off the mark, but at the same time he's a max (or supermax) player in the regular season because he turns a bad defense into a top one. He's obviously not worth near that if he can't do the same in the playoffs, even if the awful defense is the fault of his teammates.

It would probably be a good idea to also practice a switching 1-5 defense in the regular season even if it loses some games so it could maybe be an option in the playoffs, but ultimately they also just need at least one top perimeter defender.
   4765. we all water; we all 57i66135 Posted: October 05, 2021 at 08:01 PM (#6043809)
This better be to get him on the Sixers for Simmons.

i can neither confirm nor deny.
   4766. Der-K's tired of these fruits from poisoned trees Posted: October 05, 2021 at 09:04 PM (#6043826)
Stiggles, you’re presuming I’m far less lazy than I am…
I know that first quote is real as I have a typo in it, seemingly one of my hallmarks here…
—-
Two trades lent Brooklyn some serious f’n arbitrage:
They sent Sekou to Houston with their ‘24 second for 110k.
Then they got Miami’s second in ‘25 from Indy for taking on Sumner’s deal (they will cut him)
This saved Brooklyn like 8 mil and probably slightly upgraded their 2nd rounder? Nice business…
   4767. Der-K's tired of these fruits from poisoned trees Posted: October 05, 2021 at 09:06 PM (#6043827)
Woj: “Sources with @WindhorstESPN: The Brooklyn Nets remain unclear on All-Star guard Kyrie Irving’s ultimate intentions to get vaccinated and have made no decision on whether the organization will accommodate him as a part-time player this season. Story soon on ESPN.“
   4768. Fourth True Outcome Posted: October 05, 2021 at 10:16 PM (#6043872)
Woj also has it that discussions between DeAndre Ayton's camp and the Suns over an extension have fallen apart over the Suns' unwillingness to pay the rookie max. That's insane, right? (Certainly a Sarver move, though.)
   4769. tshipman Posted: October 05, 2021 at 10:41 PM (#6043885)
Woj also has it that discussions between DeAndre Ayton's camp and the Suns over an extension have fallen apart over the Suns' unwillingness to pay the rookie max. That's insane, right? (Certainly a Sarver move, though.)


I mean, I don't think it's insane at all. I'm not sure you should give a max to any pure big other than Joel Embiid and Jokic.
   4770. jmurph Posted: October 06, 2021 at 08:02 AM (#6043925)
Woj: “Sources with @WindhorstESPN: The Brooklyn Nets remain unclear on All-Star guard Kyrie Irving’s ultimate intentions to get vaccinated and have made no decision on whether the organization will accommodate him as a part-time player this season. Story soon on ESPN.“

I was watching TNT last night while the Yankees were batting (because I'm a grown man who gets too stressed watching his favorite baseball team pitch in elimination games) and Isiah Thomas actually did a great job on the Kyrie situation, speaking to him directly (to the camera, I'm sure Kyrie wasn't actually watching) and appealing for him to get vaccinated for his own safety and that of his family and friends.

But to this point, he and Channing Frye talked about how it's basically an untenable situation for the Nets for him to not actually practice or play at home. Just from a team-building/coaching perspective, the idea that he's going to just show up for away games and get his minutes, not be at meetings, not be at practice at home, is just not going to fly for the guys who get all his minutes in the games he doesn't play but barely play when Kyrie is available.
   4771. spivey 2 Posted: October 06, 2021 at 08:32 AM (#6043929)
Nets are probably still the team to beat even if Kyrie sits out, imo. Patty Mills can scale up to about 25-30 min pretty easily and be very effective on and off ball there. Of course, they're a bit big heavy imo, so it'd be a challenge to find enough guard and wing minutes if someone got hurt.

I think Ayton will get done. He's only entering RFA right, so ultimately they can decide what they want to do. If they max or near max both him and Bridges, they're deep into the tax. I don't think it's unreasonable for them to ask him to show what he showed in the playoffs all year long. It's easier to replace Ayton than it is to replace Bridges.
   4772. DCA Posted: October 06, 2021 at 08:47 AM (#6043931)
I mean, I don't think it's insane at all. I'm not sure you should give a max to any pure big other than Joel Embiid and Jokic.

I've defended the choice of Ayton over Doncic (it was an obvious mistake, but defensible in a way that Bagley over Doncic was not). But if you aren't going to max Ayton when he hits, what's the point of taking him #1 in the first place?
   4773. spivey 2 Posted: October 06, 2021 at 09:09 AM (#6043937)
But if you aren't going to max Ayton when he hits, what's the point of taking him #1 in the first place?

The sunk cost fallacy, for one.
   4774. An Athletic in Powderhorn Posted: October 06, 2021 at 10:33 AM (#6043962)
I wonder how Irving imagines this playing out. Has he thought about the playoffs? If the vaccine law had been in effect last year, and he had said "I will play games 3, 4, and 6 against the Bucks. That's it.", his teammates' response would have been "GTFO. Go home. And either start acting like an adult, or don't come back." Right? Am I missing something here?
   4775. tshipman Posted: October 06, 2021 at 11:20 AM (#6043969)
I've defended the choice of Ayton over Doncic (it was an obvious mistake, but defensible in a way that Bagley over Doncic was not). But if you aren't going to max Ayton when he hits, what's the point of taking him #1 in the first place?


Has Ayton hit? He averaged 14/10 last year with bad defense. He can't create his own shot. Even in the playoffs last year, he was a net - on the court.

I guess I don't see why a bunch of people think he should get the max.
   4776. Fourth True Outcome Posted: October 06, 2021 at 12:11 PM (#6043984)
Admittedly I haven't been paying close enough attention to cap numbers; I thought the rookie max he was eligible was a bit lower than 5/172. To some degree I think the question is whether he's good enough to get maxed in RFA, not whether he's good enough in a vacuum, but the Suns are contenders and he was a pivotal piece of that, so it would be a shame to have them cheap out of keeping the band together, especially after reupping on Paul. With that said, there's likely no real harm in letting things get to restricted free agency, as long as they're trying to get him for less than the max and not actually considering letting him go instead of paying.
   4777. CFBF is Obsessed with Art Deco Posted: October 06, 2021 at 12:46 PM (#6043992)
I wonder how Irving imagines this playing out. Has he thought about the playoffs? If the vaccine law had been in effect last year, and he had said "I will play games 3, 4, and 6 against the Bucks. That's it.", his teammates' response would have been "GTFO. Go home. And either start acting like an adult, or don't come back." Right? Am I missing something here?


Kyrie seems like the kind of dude who thinks he can move the world through sheer talent and willpower, so maybe he thinks he can stare down the league and the Nets and make them give in.
   4778. Fourth True Outcome Posted: October 06, 2021 at 12:50 PM (#6043993)
Hollinger has Ayton as worth the max but just barely, so his position is that the Suns should do it if they can get him on the full extension, but play the waiting game if they can't do better than player options at the end of it. That sounds about right, I guess.

On the Kyrie thing, agreed with CFBF that he has long shown a willingness to be stubbornly out of step with others, so I'm not sure he'll come around like Wiggins did. Only time will tell if he values his vaccine-free status more than the current hopes of the Nets.
   4779. Crosseyed and Painless Posted: October 06, 2021 at 01:12 PM (#6043998)
A local hospital group in Michigan announced that about 400 people left their jobs over vaccination requirements. That's like 1-2% of employees.

So I guess if that ratio would extend to NBA players you'd think there'd be one or two? Of course NBA players have way more money and no way to find other jobs making similar money so you'd think that fewer of them would quit. They also could be set-for-life-rich financially in ways that normal employees wouldn't allowing them to do something drastic.
   4780. we all water; we all 57i66135 Posted: October 06, 2021 at 01:28 PM (#6044003)
A local hospital group in Michigan announced that about 400 people left their jobs over vaccination requirements. That's like 1-2% of employees.

So I guess if that ratio would extend to NBA players you'd think there'd be one or two?
there are 400+ NBA players. if you expand into two way contracts and the Dleague, it's 700+. i'd put the baseline expectation for vaccine non-compliance between 2-5% of any given population. for the NBA that would result in somewhere between 15 and 40 holdouts. given that NBA players tend not to watch fox news or read the daily stormcaller, i'd say 15 is closer to the upper limit than the median expectation.


but of course, the league isn't suspending players indefinitely for not being vaccinated, so it's also not quite apples to oranges.
They also could be set-for-life-rich financially in ways that normal employees wouldn't allowing them to do something drastic.
eg ben simmons.
   4781. jmurph Posted: October 06, 2021 at 02:31 PM (#6044020)
Well apparently the NBPA believes that players should continue to get paid when missing games for failing to meet local vaccine requirements. Which is certainly a stance.

   4782. Moses Taylor hashes out the rumpus Posted: October 06, 2021 at 02:52 PM (#6044027)
Kyrie as the VP of the union is part of that problem, no? The union doesn't have to honor everyone's wishes, but there's enough hesitancy from the vaccination majority that seems to be keeping the union from taking a stronger stance.

---

Unsurprisingly, Kareem did a much better job making a point about LeBron's comments than I ever could have.
   4783. asinwreck Posted: October 06, 2021 at 07:16 PM (#6044067)
In the weirdest local news story I saw today, Adam Silver was in the Bronx at the opening of a new charter school.
A new high school specializing in basketball has just opened in the Bronx, but the focus is educating students for jobs off the court.

As CBS2’s Cindy Hsu reports, the Earl Monroe New Renaissance Basketball School is named after Knicks great Earl the Pearl. The Hall of Famer says the mission is not to find the next star player but to teach kids about the business of basketball.

“You know ,when you take the sports people, and you take the lights down, there’s a hundred people behind the scenes that are making it happen. And that’s for these kids,” Monroe said.

Dan Klores has been working on opening the school for eight years.

“We’re a specialty high school not for the playing of basketball but for all the professions surrounding it: Broadcast journalism, print media, analytics, being an agent, law. Business that’s pretty special. That’s what sets us apart,” Klores said.

   4784. Moses Taylor hashes out the rumpus Posted: October 06, 2021 at 08:42 PM (#6044085)
Crazy the see the Lakers and sun play so early.
   4785. SoSH U at work Posted: October 06, 2021 at 09:21 PM (#6044104)

Crazy the see the Lakers and sun play so early.


Is there a Kareem version of that?
   4786. smileyy Posted: October 06, 2021 at 11:42 PM (#6044298)
Crazy the see the Lakers and sun play so early.


They moved the game so that the Phoenix Mercury could play their playoff game on their actual home floor -- not sure if you knew why the game was on early. It's nice to see how much the Suns support the Mercury.
   4787. we all water; we all 57i66135 Posted: October 07, 2021 at 01:36 AM (#6044381)
   4788. asinwreck Posted: October 07, 2021 at 10:41 AM (#6044437)

@Tom_Winter
BREAKING: 18 former NBA players have been arrested and charged federally for defrauding the NBA’s Health and Welfare Benefit Plan out of approximately $4,000,000, law enforcement officials say.

Reported by @jonathan4ny and me.


@Tom_Winter

Some of the players charged include:
- Milt Palacio
- Sebastian Telfair
- Antoine Wright
- Darius Miles
- Ruben Patterson
- Eddie Robinson
- Gregory Smith
- Glen Davis
- Jamario Moon

(1/2)

@Tom_Winter
More former players:
- Terrence Williams
- Alan Anderson
- Tony Allen
- Shannon Brown
- William Bynum
- Melvin Ely
- Christopher Douglas-Roberts
- Tony Wroten

(2/2)
   4789. JJ1986 Posted: October 07, 2021 at 11:28 AM (#6044455)
Not Darius!
   4790. we all water; we all 57i66135 Posted: October 07, 2021 at 11:31 AM (#6044458)
[4788]:

any list of 4 or more current or former NBA players that is posted in this thread must, by rule, include jahlil okafor.
   4791. Der-K's tired of these fruits from poisoned trees Posted: October 07, 2021 at 11:48 AM (#6044462)
Not Tony Allen!
   4792. smileyy Posted: October 07, 2021 at 12:40 PM (#6044474)
Not Ruben...oh wait, I'm not entirely surprised.
   4793. tshipman Posted: October 07, 2021 at 12:48 PM (#6044477)
If you gave me 10 guesses at the players most likely to defraud the NBA's health and welfare fund, several of these guys would have been on that list.
   4794. smileyy Posted: October 07, 2021 at 12:58 PM (#6044483)
Seems like a lot of those guys stuck around for a few soy latte's in the league, but Glen Davis had $34M in career earnings, Will Bynum $17M. I haven't looked up all of them, but, uh, for an average take of $200k each, that's not-great decision making. On the other hand, perhaps not-great decision making led to them needing that money.

Edit: the aforementioned Mr. Patterson: $36M
   4795. tshipman Posted: October 07, 2021 at 01:01 PM (#6044484)
When I think of great decision making, I definitely think of Bassy Telfair, Big Baby and Shannon Brown.
   4796. The Original SJ Posted: October 07, 2021 at 01:13 PM (#6044486)
Hi, I used to post here, but now in the lounge. Anyway, I never played season long NBA fantasy, because honestly, the last minute subs and whatnot, such a headache. HOWEVER! The best ball format saves the daily changes.

So I thought I would try one and see if there is any interest. Because there are no in season pickups and no trades, the draft is 30 rounds long, so you will get into some people. No need to set the lineup, the software will pick the highest point getters and arrange them accordingly. 8 players stats are kept each week, 2 guards, 2 forwards, 2 guard forward flex spots, and 2 forward/center flex spots. So you can go small, or big, if you wish. Scoring is pretty standard, but I added a negative half point for every missed shot.

Anyway, draft is next Tuesday night at 8:40 eastern if you are interested. Here is the link.
   4797. jmurph Posted: October 07, 2021 at 03:01 PM (#6044518)
If anyone is interested in hearing the 150th percentile projection for everyone associated with the Miami Heat, you should check out the free Dunc'd On episode with Ethan Skolnick. It's like a 2+ hour(!) audition for Skolnick to be hired by the Heat's PR department.

EDIT: Maybe just an hour, I didn't actually make it through.
   4798. DCA Posted: October 07, 2021 at 03:23 PM (#6044527)
Anyway, draft is next Tuesday night at 8:40 eastern if you are interested. Here is the link.

Very disappointed that wasn't an Albright.
   4799. Your favorite TFTIO, me! Posted: October 07, 2021 at 03:24 PM (#6044528)
If anyone is interested in hearing the 150th percentile projection for everyone associated with the Miami Heat, you should check out the free Dunc'd On episode with Ethan Skolnick. It's like a 2+ hour(!) audition for Skolnick to be hired by the Heat's PR department.

Yeah, that was wild. "Tyler Herro will be the centrepiece of a trade for Brad Beal. Or possibly for Dame."
   4800. DCA Posted: October 07, 2021 at 03:32 PM (#6044531)
BREAKING: 18 former NBA players have been arrested and charged federally for defrauding the NBA’s Health and Welfare Benefit Plan out of approximately $4,000,000, law enforcement officials say.

any list of 4 or more current or former NBA players that is posted in this thread must, by rule, include jahlil okafor.


By my count, the two lists in 4788 comprise 17 players. So there's hope!
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